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Nancy Grace
Doctor Accused of Poisoning Wife With Cyanide; The $50K Breakup
Aired December 17, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Off the top, we go live to upscale Pennsylvania. A wealthy doctor`s wife tries desperately to get pregnant again, but then keels over dead on the kitchen floor. Tonight, was Autumn Klein fed cyanide poison in a fertility energy drink?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police here alleged that Dr. Robert Ferrante murdered his wife, Dr. Autumn Klein, with a lethal dose of cyanide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accuses Ferrante of spiking his late wife`s creatine with cyanide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A source close to the investigation tells us the levels of cyanide in Klein`s system were significant, enough to make her collapse in 30 seconds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police outlined text messages, cyanide purchased by credit card, and a claim that Ferrante suspected his wife was cheating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, to Atlanta suburbs. Will a cheating fiance be forced to pay $50,000 after he breaks off his engagement with his live-in girlfriend over another woman?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She may be heartbroken over her cheating fiance, but a court rules she`s entitled to $50,000 after her fiance allegedly cheats after their engagement. But the man claims he never said the words "will you marry me." Do you buy it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, under investigation, live, Canton, Ohio. At this hour, tiny skeletal remains found wrapped in blankets and plastic bags, then hidden in an antique storage trunk inside a family home. Tonight, who are the tiny infants?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doug Lindauer (ph) is describing what he saw inside this footlocker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw bones, a skull. There was a -- you know, like, a baby skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman who lived (INAUDIBLE) Judith Shumar passed away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Extract DNA to see if there`s a family tie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the mystery that we`re going to be confronted with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Illinois suburbs. A 13-year-old star student joyrides with a carload of kids, then crashes head-first into a tree, killing a 12-year-old boy strapped in the seatbelt in the back seat. Tonight, the 13-year-old girl charged with homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A joyride takes a turn for the worse, and now a 12-year-old boy is dead and a 13-year-old girl has been charged with homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Armani Kramer (ph) was killed and three other kids injured when the alleged underage driver of the vehicle the group was riding in crashed into a tree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were all too young to be in a car together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go off the top, live to upscale Pennsylvania. A wealthy doctor`s wife tries desperately to get pregnant again. But then she keels over dead on the kitchen floor. Tonight, was Autumn Klein fed cyanide poison in a fertility energy drink?
You`re seeing shot of Autumn right there. She was desperate to have another child with her doctor husband. She was trying everything, even an odd suggestion from her husband, Dr. Robert Ferrante, a research professor at the university, that she take creatine to enhance her chances of trying to get pregnant.
They did it all -- sex, sex, and more sex, energy drinks, fertility drugs, you name it. Then suddenly, Autumn keels over dead on the kitchen floor. Tonight, was she poisoned with cyanide in her fertility energy drink?
With me, Michael Board, WOAI. Michael, what happened?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Nancy, it always amazes me when such brilliant people get themselves in such stupid situations. In this case, we`re talking about Dr. Robert Ferrante. He`s a genius. He`s a researcher for ALS, for Lou Gehrig`s disease.
He calls police one night, says his wife is having seizures. The paramedics come to the house. They find her on the floor, barely alive. But once you start digging into the details of this case, Nancy, things just don`t make sense in this.
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Whoa! Back it up! Back it up! They already had a child. They`ve got a 6-year-old daughter named Siena (ph). The husband, the doctor/husband, is the biological father of the little girl.
There`s the home that they live in, very, very nice home, happy marriage by all accounts. Then suddenly, as she is in the middle of fertility treatments, trying to get pregnant, even taking some weird substance called creatine that the doctor basically ordered her to take, she keels over dead.
Dr. Joye M. Carter joining me, the chief forensic pathologist out of Marion County. She`s the author of "I Speak for the Dead." Dr. Carter, thank you for being with us. If it turns out that she did die by cyanide poisoning, isn`t that a very painful death?
DR. JOYE M. CARTER, MARION COUNTY, CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Yes it is. That`s poisoning at the cellular level and certainly has nothing to do with fertility treatments.
GRACE: So when you are poisoned with cyanide, what -- what -- what is it, do you immediately just pass out? Do you just black out? Do you have a heart attack? Do you have stomach pains? What does it do to your system?
CARTER: It poisons the body at the cellular level. It`s basically like being asphyxiated. It can be painful. It`s not that romantic TV death. It can be very painful. You`re not getting oxygen to any of your body organs. And it is not a pleasant way to go. You see people foaming at the mouth, vomiting. It is going throughout the body in very...
GRACE: Doctor -- whoa! Dr. Carter, did you say foaming at the mouth? She would have foamed at the mouth?
CARTER: Right. That can cause -- you see it in asphyxia-type deaths. This is a poison at the cellular level and...
GRACE: I don`t know what that means. You keep saying, "at the cellular level." I`m just a lawyer. What does that mean, at the cellular level? And why would she foam at the mouth?
CARTER: We exchange gas, get air (INAUDIBLE) into our blood (INAUDIBLE) through the lungs, through the cells. Anything keeping that from happening goes throughout the body. Our internal organs need oxygen, and cyanide prevents that reaction from occurring.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Dr. Carter, I wish you could see these shots of this lady, Autumn Klein. I remember when I desperately wanted to start a family and was just hoping against hope that, you know, even late in life, I could because blessed. This lady was basically taking anything her doctor husband would give her. Of course, he denies everything adamantly.
But he even suggested she take something called creatine? Dr. Carter, what is that?
CARTER: That is something that`s taken for muscle building. It`s pretty much used (INAUDIBLE) body building, to increase their muscle size. It`s really not one of the things on the forefront as far as fertility treatments. You see most of it (INAUDIBLE) people that want to build bodies, young adolescents that want to get muscle mass. I don`t think this is one of the things that`s used very commonly (INAUDIBLE) women who are seeking for fertile (ph) treatment.
GRACE: Take a look at Autumn. She wanted desperately to get pregnant again. She would try anything. Her husband suggested she take creatine, a supplement, now we know from Dr. Carter is basically used by body builders to build body mass. She didn`t know that.
She was found dead on the floor. Now, Dr. Carter, you said when you are fed cyanide, or you`re cyanide-poisoned, you foam at the mouth because -- you said what, it creates oxygen -- a gas?
CARTER: It prevents you from breathing. You need oxygen for your body to function, and you get (INAUDIBLE) edema or foaming at the mouth.
GRACE: Edema is fluid, fluid, and it starts coming out of your mouth.
But interesting, Michael Board, WOAI, isn`t it true he calls 911. He directs them to a particular hospital, that does not have a trauma ward, I might add. And when they get there, they find Autumn bent over double in pain on the floor. And it`s so staged. It`s so horribly staged. It`s -- she`s lying there, and she`s got, like, a -- a vial of creatine in one hand and something else in the other hand. It`s like she fell down dying in intense pain, and then somebody sticks the creatine in her hand.
How did they find her, Michael?
BOARD: She was on the floor of her kitchen. And what`s interesting is you had the doctor on talking about what cyanide poisoning does. In that 911 call, we know that the 911 dispatcher in the background heard the victim in this case choking and sputtering. It sounds exactly like what the doctor was talking about, the foaming at the mouth and you couldn`t breathe. Exactly the same thing.
GRACE: You know what? Justin Freiman, I don`t even want to play that 911 call because you can hear Autumn Klein in the background choking and suffering.
Justin, what was in her hands when they found her dead on the kitchen floor?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): The paramedics arrived. They found a plastic bag containing a white substance and a small glass vial that the doctor then said was this creatine. And since he`s a doctor, the paramedics and everybody else just didn`t question that.
GRACE: Now, Justin, isn`t it true that he wanted her cremated immediately?
FREIMAN: That is right, Nancy, cremated. And she was.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Unleash Eric Guster and Marla Chicotsky, Eric Guster out of Atlanta, Marla Chicotsky out of Miami.
All right, Marla. I can`t wait to hear your defense in this case. Go ahead. Hit me.
MARLA CHICOTSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the powder wasn`t tested. How do we know that that is, in fact, cyanide? The powder wasn`t tested. It could have been this creatine. There`s a lot of reasonable doubt in this case.
Also, the only witness that claims he purchased the cyanide was some witness that he worked with. How do we know that witness isn`t biased or have some motive to try to get his job...
GRACE: OK. That`s fair.
CHICOTSKY: ... or get him to leave the job?
GRACE: Marla, I agree with you.
Justin, how do we know the doctor would have been instrumental in obtaining cyanide?
FREIMAN: Because the police are saying that he used his credit card, his university card, to...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Put up Chicotsky and Guster. There you go. How about that, Chicotsky? He used his credit card! The brilliant doctor used his credit card to buy cyanide. Oh! I want to pull your credit card statements, see how often you order cyanide with your credit card. What about it, Guster?
ERIC GUSTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the cyanide definitely does not help his case. But you have to look at the lack of direct evidence. This man called 911 while his wife was still alive. He didn`t wait until she was dead. If he was trying to kill her, he would wait until she was dead before he called 911.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on. Hold, hold your horses, Guster!
GUSTER: I will.
GRACE: Wait just a minute. All right, let me go back to you, Michael Board, WOAI. It`s my understanding that when she gets to the hospital, before she`s even dead, the doctor husband, Dr. Robert Ferrante, is saying, yes, I don`t think we`re going to need an autopsy. Just go ahead and get her cremated. She wasn`t even dead yet, and he was yelling out that -- he was telling all the attendants that she did not need an autopsy. Did they perform an autopsy?
BOARD: No. She was cremated.
GRACE: But you know, you can perform an autopsy before cremation. You don`t just leave the hospital and go straight to the cremation. Did anybody perform an autopsy?
BOARD: Not as far as we know.
GRACE: Justin, did anyone perform an autopsy?
FREIMAN: It ended up an autopsy was called for by the ME because he said the death was sudden and unexpected, and that autopsy was done, but the toxicology results did not come back until after she was cremated.
GRACE: Oh! Oh! He almost got away with it. Michael Board, he almost you had snowed, too. So at the last minute, then, Justin, they do have an autopsy.
To Dr. Joye Carter. Isn`t it true in autopsy, they always take tissue samples?
CARTER: They take tissue samples and body fluid samples. And that`s how the toxicology is done. And it can be done and completed after the body has been cremated.
GRACE: You know, to you, Caryn Stark. You know, Guster and Chicotsky are great defense attorneys, got great reputations. But let me ask you this something, Caryn, in a nutshell. He is a brilliant doctor, but he ordered cyanide on his credit card?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Whoever said that intellect has anything to do with common sense, Nancy? I mean, this is like a genius whose head is in the clouds. He`s not thinking it out. He`s clearly not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... Caryn Stark, that there is no perfect murder.
Everyone, when we come back, to Atlanta suburbs. Will a cheating fiance be forced to pay $50,000 after he breaks off his engagement with his live-in fiance over another woman?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to the Atlanta suburbs. Will a cheating fiance be forced by the court to dole out $50,000 after he breaks off the engagement with his live-in fiancee over another woman?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A scorned fiancee has just been awarded $50,000 after a court rules she`s entitled to the money because a man breaches his promise to marry her when he cheats with another woman. But that`s not all. The would-be husband goes on the offensive, claiming the relationship wasn`t totally based on love and claims he never said the words, "Will you marry me?"
She may be heartbroken over her cheating fiance, but a court rules she`s entitled to $50,000 after her fiance allegedly cheats after their engagement. But the man claims he never said the words "Will you marry me?" Do you buy it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So his defense is, he gives her this beautiful pave (ph) diamond ring, and he`s saying -- let me get this straight. To Ninette Sosa, reporter with all news at WYAY. Ninette, he says, Well, I gave her the engagement ring. Yes, we were living together. Yes, she had a child, I think a little boy by me. But I never said the words, "Will you marry me?" That`s what he said?
NINETTE SOSA, WYAY-FM (via telephone): Exactly. "Will you marry me" -- he says, never said it, therefore, I wasn`t going to do it. And this whole case just -- he felt that he would win this case. And in addition to marrying her -- or not marrying her, he based this appeal of the $50,000 decision on a meretricious relationship. Look up the word in the dictionary, Nancy. It means having the nature of prostitution. That`s how he viewed this relationship. That`s what he went to the state court of appeals with. And the state said, No, not going to buy it, still got to pay.
GRACE: Out to Clark Goldband, in addition to Ninette Sosa from WYAY. So he`s living with a woman.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.
GRACE: Her name is Melissa Cooper (ph). Apparently, they`re engaged. She thinks they`re engaged and they`re getting married. She has a baby by him. She`s got this...
GOLDBAND: Ten years.
GRACE: What?
GOLDBAND: Ten years.
GRACE: Well, you know what? In that jurisdiction just recently, they got rid of common law. And a common law marriage is when you set yourself up -- meretricious can be construed in many different ways. In fact, sometimes -- isn`t this true -- out to you, Eric Guster and Marla Chicotsky -- when you say you have a meretricious relationship, it means marriage- like, Marla?
CHICOTSKY: No. It means that you`re living with a man and having sexual relations with him to live with him.
GRACE: Correct.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... a phrase that is used -- Eric, you`re in that jurisdiction. That is a phrase that was used in the past when you`re trying to prove a common law marriage, that you`ve been living together. In some jurisdictions, you got to have a period of time, like, say, seven years. In some jurisdictions, there`s no period of time necessary.
But if you set yourself out to be in a married or meretricious-type relationship, living together, sexually involved, then the court will deem in many jurisdictions that you have a common law marriage, Eric?
GUSTER: Yes. And that`s very true. In Alabama -- we practice a lot of cases in Alabama, and there is no time limit in Alabama. If you hold yourself out to be married...
GRACE: Yes. You shack up for a week...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... represent yourself as married and you`re on the hook.
GUSTER: Yes.
GRACE: Well, not so simple for this guy. The court says he`s going to have to shell out $50,000 when he breaks up with his girlfriend over another woman.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: She says they were engaged to be married. He gives her a beautiful diamond engagement ring. They live together 10 years. She even has his baby. Then he leaves her jilted at the alter over another woman. But now a court says he owes her $50,000. I`m sure he`s going to continue to fight it on appeal.
Straight out to Ninette Sosa, joining me from WYAY. Ninette, were they together for 10 years, and doesn`t she have a baby by him?
SOSA: Nancy, they were together 10 years plus, from, like 2000. They hook up. They move in together. By 2004, they have a child. She already has a child from a previous relationship. And then fast-forward to this $10,000 engagement ring and...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! A $10,000 engagement ring? Clark Goldband, that does not sound like a friendship ring to me. That ain`t a promise ring, OK?
GOLDBAND: You know what, Nancy? I can tell you as a man...
GRACE: Put Clark up!
GOLDBAND: I can tell you as a man, that`s certainly not something you`re not going to have an impulse buy on...
GRACE: Clark Goldband...
GOLDBAND: ... a $10,000 ring.
GRACE: ... I remember when you were shopping for your now wife`s engagement ring. Oh, what you put us all through!
GOLDBAND: Well, that`s right.
GRACE: And this guy is actually saying, We weren`t engaged? Caryn Stark, he gave her a $10,000 engagement ring. Then he dumps her for another woman. I`d sue him, too!
STARK: Well, and not only that, I mean, he`s saying he wasn`t engaged. He`s walking around with a ring...
(CROSSTALK)
STARK: ... and she has his child.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, Marla Chicotsky, Eric Guster. All right, Eric, let`s hear your defense. He lives with her. He gets her pregnant. Been with her 10 years. I`m going to leave you out of this one, Marla.
GUSTER: Oh, pick on me.
GRACE: Eric -- Eric.
GUSTER: OK.
GRACE: Then he says, What? We weren`t engaged!
GUSTER: Yes, we were just friends and living together. But I think this lawsuit is ridiculous. He shouldn`t have to pay this lady...
GRACE: Why?
GUSTER: People break up all the time, Nancy.
GRACE: Really?
GUSTER: I mean -- absolutely!
GRACE: Is that what you think? Well, you better tell your clients they got another thought coming because he owes her 50 grand, 50 large, everybody, over jilting her for another woman!
When we come back, on a serious note, tiny skeletal remains, as we go to air, have been found wrapped in blankets, then put in plastic bags, then hidden in an antique storage trunk inside a family home. Tonight, who are the tiny infants?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, under investigation, we go live to Canton, Ohio. At this hour we learn tiny skeletal remains have been found wrapped in blankets. That`s very important. Wrapped in blankets. Then put in plastic bags, and then hidden in an antique storage trunk inside a family home. Tonight, who are the tiny infants?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw bones, a skull. There was, you know, like a baby skull. A bunch of bones in a deteriorated blanket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immediately called the police, who now have launched an investigation to determine who the infants were, what happened, and how long they`ve been dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a mystery that we`re going to be confronted with and we`re going to try, as I say, peel back the onion and one layer at a time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The footlocker and the remains will be sent to Mercy`s (inaudible) University`s anthropology department for examination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never seen nothing like that before in my life. I never thought I`d ever have to see something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The remains of two infants, two children. There`s no doubt about that. We don`t know who they are. We don`t know when they died. We don`t know how long they lived. We don`t know how they died. We don`t know who`s the mother. What we do know, the skeletal remains of two tiny infants have been found, wrapped very carefully in a blanket. Then put into a plastic bag, then hidden in an antique storage locker, and tonight we want answers.
Straight out to Phil Trexler (ph), joining me from the Akron Beacon Journal. Phil, that`s a surprise. You`re cleaning out a home. You find a storage trunk. Open it up. And find the remains of two tiny babies? Tell me what happened.
PHIL TREXLER, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL: Yes. Can you imagine a more gruesome discovery being made there? Certainly one of the biggest mysteries that we`ve uncovered here in a long time. A son came from California to the home of his deceased mother to take care of her estate, so to speak. He`s going through her belongings, comes across this trunk. Decides he better open it before he gets rid of it, and there he opens it up and makes this disturbing discovery. And since then it`s been this mystery that`s unfolding here in the Canton area, and it`s certainly very, very disturbing of a discovery that`s been made.
GRACE: Out to Clark Goldband there on the story, were the remains skeletonized?
GOLDBAND: Little, tiny pieces, Nancy. Yes. In fact, law enforcement could tell they were there quite a long time, but they don`t know if that means five years or 50 years.
GRACE: To Dr. Joy Carter, chief forensic pathologist, (inaudible), the author of "I Speak for the Dead." Dr. Carter, thank for being with us. Dr. Carter, we`ve all heard of tests like carbon 14, time dating to tell how old remains are, but that type of test, like a C-14, deals with thousands and thousands of years old. Is there a way to date remains that could be five years old, could you 50 years old? Is that possible?
CARTER: It is possible, and that`s why they`re going to send the bodies to an anthropologist who`s trained to look at remains and give an estimated age of them. They`re going to work together with the forensic pathologist to try to determine the stature, perhaps age, and that information will be used and helpful for the police who are investigating. Anything else in that locker that be associated with perhaps the mother, any DNA material that is left in the home. They might try to do a very extensive long test for mitochondrial DNA to connect those children to a mother.
GRACE: It is interesting, since they don`t have a mother to compare to. Very disturbing, because we don`t know how long these remains have been there. You might be able to get a range of years, but an exact year, if it`s totally skeletonized, I don`t know that you`re going to be able to get an exact year, and without anyone to compare the DNA that, maybe, you can get from the bones. Possibly bone marrow. Dried bone marrow? You don`t have anybody to compare it to, to say who the mother is.
With me right now I`m hearing in my ear from the North Canton Police is Chief Stephen Wilder. Chief, thank you for being with us. Chief, do you think you know who the mother is?
CHIEF STEPHEN WILDER, NORTH CANTON POLICE: Well, that`s a very good question, Ms. Grace. That`s one of those questions you`ve posed already. To whom do the bones belong to, the infants age? We pulled the footlocker out of the son`s mother`s home. He remembers moving the footlocker in approximately five years ago when she left her residence in Lewisville, Ohio, and moved to North Canton. So we do know it`s been there at least five years, however, again, we`re still answering, trying to answer those questions. How long were the remains in the trunk, the origins of the trunk, and who put those infants in there, and, of course, how they got in there.
GRACE: With me is Chief Stephen Wilder from the North Canton Police Department. We are taking your calls. I`m telling you this, Chief, and I`m certainly not a DNA expert, but the fact that these remains, these tiny skeletons, were wrapped in a blanket -- to me, that sounds like a mother`s touch. I do not think that someone that was not connected to these children -- didn`t -- wasn`t the mother, it wasn`t a family member. To me that speaks of a female perpetrator, that she -- that the babies were wrapped up in blankets before they were, then, put in plastic bags, and, you know what, Chief? Now that I`m thinking about it, with me, Chief Stephen Wilder, you know, most people that kill a baby, they`d want to get rid of the remains, Chief. But, no. This woman brought -- and she`s passed on. This woman brought the remains from her other home to this home. She traveled with the remains. Is that what you`re telling me?
WILDER: That`s a possibility. It`s not easy. We don`t want to pass judgment on the family, and, again we don`t know how those bones, the infants, have they been there five years, 40 years or 50 years? Where did they travel, and how did it get in there?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doug Lindower (ph) is describing what he saw inside this footlocker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw bones, a skull. It was like a baby skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman who lived there, Judy Shumar, passed away. (inaudible) extract DNA to see if there is a family tie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the mystery we`re going to be confronted with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Sheriff Stephen Wilder with the North Canton Police Department. I know, Chief, that you say you don`t want to pass judgment on anyone, but you do have two dead bodies.
WILDER: That`s correct. We`ve pretty much wrapped up our investigation as of today. We`re frankly typing up our notes. We`ve had good cooperation with the family and acquaintances of Mrs. Shumar, and we will be, hopefully this week we will be forwarding our report to Dr. Murthi (ph), our county coroner.
GRACE: Chief, can I ask you a question? Did you have DNA from Ms. Shumar, who apparently died of natural causes? Do you have DNA to compare to her?
WILDER: I believe the Stark County coroner does. When there`s a death in the county, they`re involved in the investigation. I believe they do keep a tissue sample. So -- but I`ll have to refer that all to the, to Dr. Murthi`s (ph) office.
GRACE: Right. Back out to Phil Trexler, reporter with the Akron Beacon Journal, do we know what kind of blanket, the bodies, the babies were wrapped in?
TREXLER: The question for the chief there, but, yes. As he said, these bones were wrapped in blankets, then in bags, and certainly there is a mother`s touch there, and quite a mystery that I think the chief has on his hands.
GRACE: What about it, Chief Wilder? What kind of blankets were the tiny skeletons wrapped in?
WILDER: Well, I would have to say would be a baby type blanket. You know, soft. Just that -- I think whatever blanket you`d put your small loved one in.
GRACE: So they were wrapped in baby blankets. Question.
WILDER: Yes.
GRACE: Can you tell from the size of the skeleton how old the babies were?
WILDER: No, I can`t. I just know, barely in the palm of my hand, I can remember just seeing just a partial skull and it looked like some bones, maybe a femur, a little bit of a rib cage. From my first look, it almost looked like they had fossilized. Had that brownish look. If you go to the Museum of Natural History, something that you could see. No doubt they`d been in there for a while, and --
GRACE: Were they in the same bag together? Or were they in separate bags?
WILDER: No. I believe they were all in one bag. When I first looked, we thought we had one infant skeletal remains, but once we got to to the coroner`s office for further evaluation, that`s when the coroner notified me that evening that we not only had one skeletal remains but two. One was on top of the other.
GRACE: Were they the same size? Could they have been twins?
WILDER: That is a good question. They very well could be. I don`t know at this stage. I believe there was a little bit of tissue left that the coroner found during his evaluation that night. So that`s, again, that`s -- speculation.
GRACE: Huh. To Dr. Joy Carter. The fact that there is tissue, does that suggest to you, Dr. Carter, that the skeletons were not that old?
CARTER: Well, no, it doesn`t. This is probably dried tissue. Like you have with mummified remains, but it could be very important in determining if they were stillbirths and if any trauma had occurred.
GRACE: Everyone, an antique storage trunk yields a shocking surprise. Tiny skeletal remains of two infants found wrapped in a baby blanket. Then in a plastic bag. Who are the infant children? What happened to them? With us tonight, special guest Chief Stephen Wilder from the North Canton Police.
When we come back, a 13-year-old star student joyrides with a carload of kids. She crashes head-first into a tree, killing a 12-year-old boy in a seat belt in the back seat. Tonight, the 13-year-old girl is charged with homicide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live tonight, to the Illinois suburbs, a 13-year-old star student joyrides with a car load of kids. She crashes head first into a tree, killing a 12 year old little boy in a seat belt in the back seat. Tonight, the 13-year-old little girl charged with homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 12-year-old Amani Cramer (ph) was killed and three other kids injured when the alleged underage driver of the vehicle the group was riding in crashed into a tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A joyride takes a turn for the worst. And now a 12 year old boy is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cramer was pronounced dead in an area hospital. Three other children, two girls and another boy, were also injured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver stands charged with reckless homicide, reckless conduct, and possessing a stolen motor vehicle.
Police say the teen was speeding down the road in a stolen vehicle and crashed into a tree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were all too young to be in a car together. And a 13 year old driving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First responders that showed up, I told them I hadn`t seen any movement out of the one of them in the back seat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t know what to say. There`s nothing you can do but pray.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. For those of you just joining us, a 13 year old little girl, star student, goes joydriving in her mother`s car. She goes joyriding with a group of other children. She crashes head first into a tree, killing a 12 year old boy that was in a seat belt in the back seat. And tonight, the 13 year old girl is charged with homicide. To Dave Mack. What happened?
MACK: You hate to say kids being kids, but this 13 year old grabbed her mom`s car, got her friends together, 12 year old Amani was actually grounded and not supposed to leave home, and they took off for a joyride, and the car got out of control, at a high rate of speed, hitting that tree head on.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing a shot of that little boy, Amani Cramer, just 12 years old, who lost his life.
Dave Mack, how did the little girl get her mom`s car? It`s my understanding that neighbors thought she had driven around in the mom`s car before.
MACK: Well, that`s the part that`s a little bit odd, Nancy, because the neighbors had seen her driving that car before. But if you notice, it says she`s charged with possession of a stolen vehicle, meaning she didn`t necessarily -- I don`t know exactly how that turns out. It`s not charged with stealing the vehicle, just possession of a stolen vehicle. She shouldn`t have been driving it obviously because she was under age, as was everybody in that car.
GRACE: I don`t really understand how the little boy died if he had on his seat belt and he was in the back seat, Dave Mack.
MACK: Nancy, actually, you know, that idea of the seat belt came from his mother. That she told a newspaper that. We haven`t actually heard that from anyone else that I`m aware of.
GRACE: Okay. With me is Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Everyone, we`re talking about a 13 year old girl. She is now charged with homicide. Even if she`s charged as a juvenile, she could spend all of her years up to age 21 in juvenile jail, and then conceivably go on to adult jail. The 13 year old girl, apparently a star student, went joyriding in her mother`s car, crashed head first into a tree. A 12 year old boy killed. Now the girl is charged with homicide. Right or wrong. Dave Mack, what do the 12 year old boy`s parents, what does his family say about these charges? Do they think it`s right or wrong?
MACK: So far, the mother is just in shock, nancy. She has stated that, you know, he was a good boy, but he made some bad decisions sometimes. He was a good boy, he was a bad boy.
GRACE: Wait a minute. What 12 year old little boy is not going to jump in the car and go for a ride?
MACK: That`s the whole thing. He was also grounded that week. And he was grounded because he didn`t do some of his schoolwork. And he snuck out of the house and got in the car. That`s why the mom said he was bad some days and he was good some days.
GRACE: You know, not doing your homework is not really a felony offense, Dave Mack.
MACK: No, it`s not.
GRACE: I mean, in my book, when -- I`ve seen 12 year olds commit murder and aggravated assault and carjacks. Not doing your homework, I think we`d all be in the pokey for that. I don`t think this 12 year old little boy -- I can`t put any fault on him for hopping in the car and going on a joyride. He probably thought they were going around the neighborhood.
MACK: They all did. All of these children were under the age of 16. They all made a bad decision to get in that car and go for a joyride, but this girl should be charged. At 13, you know the difference between right and wrong. And if her mother had let her drive that car in the past, as neighbors are suggesting, the mother should be charged with something.
GRACE: If the mother knew the little girl would drive the car around, in my mind, that implicates the mother to some degree for having responsibility over that car. I know where my car keys are. Thank God the twins don`t drive yet, or they don`t know how to drive yet. But bottom line, many people would perceive this as an accident. What about it, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, is for the charge on the girl. What do you make of it, Caryn? I know what the defense lawyers say.
STARK: I don`t feel that at that age, Nancy, that this is somebody who is developmentally smart enough to be able to know, to think it out, and understand the repercussions. I don`t agree.
GRACE: The thing is, Caryn, and I`m not saying she should or should not be charged. What I`m saying is, when you get behind the wheel, you don`t set out to commit a crime. Now, drinking and driving, you know you`re doing the wrong thing. You know you`re drinking. You know you`re getting behind the wheel. But a 13 year old child, what do you make of it, Caryn?
STARK: I support what you`re saying. You have to understand, her brain is not developed. Morally, even in terms of being able to understand the repercussions. Kids think they`re invincible. She doesn`t understand the responsibility of taking these kids, the possibility of death or some kind of accident. So you are right. She should not have been charged. I don`t even understand it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, we spotlight brave women of 2013. In a Hollywood world that is in desperate need of strong and diverse female characters, strong female voices on TV and elsewhere tonight, we feature the cast and crew behind the hit show, "Orange is The New Black. "
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to go to a new prison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like this is the Ratisson (ph) and you don`t like your room?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Orange is the New Black." It sounds like fashion advice, but it`s actually the name of one of this summer`s most talked about series on Netflix. Based on a memoir by author Piper Carmin (ph), "Orange is the New Black" is helping to shed new light on the not-so- glamorous life inside a women`s prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a nice white lady.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We look out for our own.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our own?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll take good care of you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a prison wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her name is Crazy Eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she rape you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, she didn`t rape me, but she held my hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dark comedy gives viewers an up-close and person look at Carmin`s real-life experience behind bars. The show`s main character is a suburban bred woman who finds herself locked up for smuggling money a decade earlier for her drug-dealing girlfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I carried a suitcase of drug money, once. Ten years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know about all this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She failed to mention the lesbian lover who ran an international drug smuggling ring.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s all good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were a lesbian?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Death threats, prison politics, corrupt prison guards force Chapman (ph) to learn the rules of prison quickly and rely on her fellow female inmates in order to get by.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chocolate and vanilla swirl!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look great. Your face is like all cheekbony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re starving me out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight we stop to remember American hero, Daane Deboer. Just 24. Luddington, Michigan. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, loved extreme sports and hiking the Appalachian trail. Parents Dave and Charlene, stepparents Mary and Jim. Three sisters. Daane Deboer. American hero.
Everyone, this holiday season, we support the Murphy Harpst Home for Abused Children. Go to nancygrace.com for special merchandise, holiday packages, including our signature handcuff necklace. Travel mugs, murder mystery books. Order soon for Christmas delivery. All of our proceeds are going to the Murphy Harpst Home for Abused and Mistreated Children. Up next is Dr. Drew, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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