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Nancy Grace
Judge Strikes Down Part of Anti-Polygamy Law; Video Tour of Pot Farm on YouTube.
Aired January 14, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Outrage! TLC TV stars for, quote, "Sister Wives," who share one husband, Kody Brown -- there he is on TLC -- join polygamists worldwide. They`re having a party tonight. They`re celebrating! A federal judge ruling -- bombshell tonight. In the last hours, a federal judge says the polygamist lifestyle is OK. It`s legal! One man can live with as many, quote, "wives" as he wants to. Hello? Where am I living, under the Taliban? I thought I was in the U.S.!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major victory for the Browns.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re crazy. They`re insane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One husband, four wives, and 17 children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our family culture has really been (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A federal judge overturned part of a decades-old anti-polygamy statute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I got to go away for a day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When my wives support me in the relationship I have with my other wife, it makes it (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kody (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to be really upset!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, oh, yes, the state of Colorado runs out of pot after they declare pot is legal. Well, tonight, police hone in on a 46- year-old man who, encouraged by Colorado lawmakers, takes to YouTube to give a private tour of his pot farm. This while Alaska, Washington state and Massachusetts all fighting it out to be the next state to legalize pot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to my beautiful garden. As you can see, God has gifted me with an abundance. I don`t want to be a criminal. I don`t want to have to sell this. I want to give this extra medicine I have away. This bouquet of flowers is for everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live to Memphis and the desperate search for a 7- week-old baby girl. As the clock ticks down, is there time to find baby Aniston (ph) alive?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could you just leave a 7-week-old baby girl with a 3-year-old son?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they have reason to believe Aniston was a victim of serious bodily injury.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 7-week-old doesn`t just disappear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a 7-week-old child missing, and everybody at this particular point is a person of interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And just when you thought it was all over, "Octomom" back in the headlines. Tonight, we learn Nadya Suleman slapped with charges she scams welfare, reportedly raking in over $250,000 in one year, while she`s on welfare?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADYA SULEMAN, ``OCTOMOM``: The payment they give you, $900 a month cash, and I refused the cash because of guilt. I don`t want to take cash. I`m only taking the food stamps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman known as the "octomom" is facing charges this morning, accused of welfare fraud. California officials say that Nadya Suleman failed to report $30,000 in income while on public assistance.
SULEMAN: My goal is to get off this immediately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Outrage tonight. TLC TV stars, four, quote, "Sister Wives" who all share one husband, Kody Brown, join polygamists worldwide to celebrate a federal judge ruling.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, a federal judge says the polygamist lifestyle is OK. One man can live with as many, quote, "wives" as he wants to. Hello? Where am I living, under the Taliban? Because I thought I was in the United States of America!
Straight out to Jim Kirkwood, talk show host, KTKK. Hold on, Jim. I hope you`ve got on your seat belt. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When my wives support me in the relationship I have with my other wives, it makes it so I can be a rock star.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going. Bye. See you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we`re all together, I learn the most important thing. Being a sister wife is what I want more than anything. (INAUDIBLE) I knew that I wasn`t (INAUDIBLE) and it was a really good wakeup call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I went through my hard times, what if I went to someone and they (INAUDIBLE) What if they (INAUDIBLE) family? We have a beautiful family. It is the most important thing (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is video of TLC`s "Sister Wives," where four grown women, one of them pregnant, I think -- Liz, do we have a photo of the wife who`s now -- oh, dear Lord in heaven! OK. I asked for a photo, and I certainly got what I asked for. Four of them share one man. His name -- there he is -- is Kody, Kody Brown. I don`t know what his secret is, why so many women want to be married to him. And just recently, one of the women went off crying that she thought she was being a bad wife.
To Jim Kirkwood, talk show host KTKK. I don`t understand, what does Kody Brown have that makes all these women want to be married to him?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK (via telephone): Nancy, I think it`s a philosophy in the subculture in Utah.
GRACE: It`s not just Utah. It`s not just Utah. But go ahead.
KIRKWOOD: No, I know. But it`s here. It`s in the West a lot. And Utah was allowed into the union on the condition of no polygamy, and the LDS church has strictly enforced that. In fact, they excommunicate people who practice polygamy. But this philosophy really appeals to some, Nancy. I don`t understand it, either.
GRACE: Well, in the last hours, a federal judge has struck down one of the prongs that basically prohibits polygamy. He has struck it down and thrown it out.
Out to the lines. Tasha in North Carolina. Hi, Tasha. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Well, I have to say that you are one of my heroes. You inspired me to go to school. So thank you so much.
GRACE: You know, Tasha, thank you very much. But I have a feeling that polygamists are not going to agree with you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two things. One, are they not concerned about any type of, like, hepatitis or getting any type of transmitted disease? And my second question is, are they not concerned about the mental health and the repercussions that`s going to happen on these children from living...
GRACE: You know, as a matter of fact, there are -- Liz, see if you can get me that video where the children, the teen girls are lashing out at their mothers, calling them crazy and insane for a lot of different reasons. But she`s right.
Brian Russell, psychologist, also on "Fatal Vows" on Investigation Discovery -- Brian Russell, people that advocate polygamy don`t understand what it does to the children.
BRIAN RUSSELL, CO-HOST, "FATAL VOWS": Yes, Nancy, I don`t think that that`s a healthy way to grow up at all. And one of the things that is supposed to happen as children grow up -- and of course, we`re speaking optimally here -- is they`re supposed to see an example that they can follow of how to have a healthy relationship with somebody of the opposite sex, a healthy long-term, committed relationship.
If that doesn`t get modeled for you, you have to figure it out on your own, and there`s a higher chance then there are going to be mistakes made.
GRACE: Joining me right now, a special guest. He is a national polygamy advocate. Mark Henkel is with us. Mark, why do you support polygamy?
MARK HENKEL, NATIONAL POLYGAMY ADVOCATE: I believe in the freedom of choice for women to choose their relationships.
GRACE: I`m sorry, I can`t make you out. You believe in what now?
HENKEL: Free choice of women to choose their relationships.
GRACE: OK. Now, would that extend to child brides that are, say, 12 to 15 years old, that are extremely common in the...
HENKEL: Absolutely not.
GRACE: ... offshoot branches of the LDS -- really? So not them?
HENKEL: You and I are on the same page against those crimes.
GRACE: Whoa! No, no, no, no, no, no! Do not put me on the same page as you, Mr. Henkel. No offense...
HENKEL: Against criminals...
GRACE: ... but do not put me in the same page.
HENKEL: ... against underage...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, to me, polygamists are criminals. To me, polygamists are criminals.
HENKEL: (INAUDIBLE) crime.
GRACE: Mr. Henkel, are you familiar with -- are you familiar with the Taliban?
HENKEL: I`m talking about free choice, unrelated consenting adults making a choice. Minors, that`s horrible. That`s a crime. And we agree with you that that`s criminal. That`s horrible. That`s nothing that normal, unrelated consenting adults around America are making a free choice. This is a freedom of choice for women (INAUDIBLE) that are men.
GRACE: Mr. Henkel, how many wives do you have?
HENKEL: That is not an answer I`m still (ph) free to tell (ph) you (ph).
GRACE: OK. So I`m -- are you married?
HENKEL: I`m very happily married, very happily married.
GRACE: OK. So if you`re happily married and you won`t tell me how many wives you`ve got, I`m just going to make an educated guess it`s more than one. Am I close? Am I getting warm or am I cold?
HENKEL: You are free to speculate according to your desires.
GRACE: OK. I`m burning up hot (ph)! That`s the answer to that. OK, back to you, Mr. Henkel, national polygamy advocate, you say polygamists get a bad name because the media focuses on criminal polygamists. What are you talking about? All polygamists are criminals because polygamy is a crime.
HENKEL: Well, actually, the case itself didn`t throw out and say polygamy was OK, it just...
GRACE: If you could just answer my question? I`m asking you -- you say laws against polygamy -- I mean, the media is unfair because we focus on criminal polygamists. What do you mean by that?
HENKEL: Because you focus -- it`s like to trying to say that same-sex marriage should be criminalized or football should be criminalized because of Jerry Sandusky. Polygamists have nothing to do with criminals like the FLDS and Warren Jeffs. And to compare us to Warren Jeffs is like comparing all football players and saying all football players should go to jail because of Jerry Sandusky.
GRACE: That doesn`t even make any sense. And I`m not talking about...
HENKEL: It makes total sense.
GRACE: ... same-sex marriage. Same-sex marriage, whether you agree with it or disagree with it, is between two people, all right, same-sex marriage. And that is not the topic tonight. Tonight, we are talking about one man with multiple wives.
And you want to hear the effect it has on children? Take a listen to what these women`s daughters have to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that our mothers are living vicariously through us because Christine was weird in high school, and my mom was the only one who graduated, so...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that our moms didn`t have the best high school graduation parties, and they`re, like, I want better for my child, and so they`re, like, taking all that stuff that they wanted in theirs and, like, kind of just implanting it in ours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s video of TLC`s "Sister Wives," the children looking at their mothers, saying they didn`t either graduate from high school or they didn`t have a good education. Why? How young were they when they got married? And here you see this guy, Kody Brown, star of a TV show, who actually has four wives.
I want to go back out to Matt Zarrell. Matt Zarrell, what the judge struck down was the cohabitation portion of that state law. How widespread is polygamy, Matt Zarrell?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, if you believe what you read on line, polygamy is very widespread in some of the Western and Southern states.
GRACE: We`re taking your calls. Out to Mark in Missouri. Hi, Mark. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is this, Nancy. Nice to talk to you. Isn`t this (INAUDIBLE) a person`s belief system, which is unfair? Whether I`m for polygamy or not, as long as no one`s getting hurt and no one`s doing anything illegal, like pedophilia or anything unacceptable like that, and the wives enjoy it and they`re happy in their lives, what`s the problem? It`s the same thing with gay marriage, it`s just different.
GRACE: No, no, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) allow the belief system...
GRACE: This is not the same thing as gay marriage, Mark. Number one, I am not attacking gay marriage tonight. Boom. I`m not talking about same-sex marriage. I`m talking about one man who has multiple wives, like a harem.
And very typically, you see the women undereducated, forced into it by somebody else`s religious beliefs and afraid to get out of it. That`s my concern. So when you say, Mark in Missouri, nobody`s getting hurt -- what -- how do you know how these women feel? How do you know how these women feel when they are teenagers when they get married to somebody?
I mean, I don`t know how you would feel about, let`s see, four or five guys, including yourself, having one wife, and she shares all of you. I don`t know how you`d feel about that.
But tonight, polygamists worldwide celebrating along with Kody Brown and his four wives as a federal judge strikes down an integral prong of the prohibition on polygamy.
When we come back, police hone in on a 46-year-old man who, encouraged by Colorado lawmakers, takes to YouTube to give us a private tour of his pot farm.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Yes, the state of Colorado runs out of pot after they declare marijuana legal. Well, tonight, police hone in on a 46-year-old man who, encouraged by Colorado lawmakers, takes to YouTube to give a private tour of his pot farm. This while Alaska, Washington state and Massachusetts all fighting it out to be the next state to legalize pot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. My name is William Bradley. My PO box is -- my hometown is Westbrook, Connecticut, zip code 06498. I`m growing this medicine for myself. I don`t want to have to sell it. I want to be able to give it away to people who need it. Look how beautiful this one is. It`s gorgeous. It`s huge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. He`s giving us a private tour of his pot farm on YouTube. To Ryan Broderick, reporter with Buzzfeed. Who is this guy?
RYAN BRODERICK, BUZZFEED: This is a weird video, Nancy. His name is William Bradley. He lives in Connecticut. And the video is a six-minute- long tour of a place he calls Hope Garden, full of massive marijuana plants. And he just rambles incoherently about everything around him and repeats a lot of very strange phrases. And people didn`t really know what to make of it on YouTube.
GRACE: Take a listen to what this guy said, giving us a private tour of his pot farm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God, that`s huge. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to my garden. Hi. My name is William Bradley. My PO box is -- my hometown is Westbrook, Connecticut, zip code 06498. And welcome to my beautiful garden. I`m hoping I can make this video because I want to give this extra medicine I have away. I want to be able to give it to people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the private tour of his pot farm he posted on YouTube. Special guest Major John Carbone, Clinton, Connecticut, Police Department. Major, I know that you`re swamped. Thank you for being with us. You know, I`m sure you`re grateful he actually gave you his address and zip code, right?
MAJ. JOHN CARBONE, CLINTON POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Yes, we were thrilled.
GRACE: Major, I`m afraid I`m fighting a losing battle here, but I disagree with the legalization of pot. And that`s because I prosecuted so many cases that involved car crashes, shootings, fatalities, murders, you name it, of people high on pot. And I want to know what you make of this video? And how did you find it? And also, what do you make of Colorado legalizing pot?
CARBONE: Well, what I make of the video is disturbing. And what flagged it for us was, in addition to just basically being illegal, he threatens to distribute it to children if he doesn`t get donations.
The Colorado legalization is causing problems for us because we`re seeing it coming in the mail now. It`s illegal in Connecticut. And this gentleman is not unknown to us for this type of behavior.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please help me out. Help me give this away, if you can, you know, maybe have a fund-raiser, go to your church or synagogue or mosque or organization or school or anywhere and start a collection so that we together can help people, help people that need this medicine and get it to the right people. Don`t let me sell it so that children get ahold of it because I don`t want people to buy this and then end up selling it to children. I think that`s ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s video from YouTube. Major Carbone, I just heard what you said, how he is basically threatening to sell it and children can get their hands on it. Incredible!
Mason Tvert is with us, communications director of the Marijuana Policy Project. Mr. Tvert, thank you for being with us. I take it that you support the legalization of marijuana?
MASON TVERT, MARIJUANA POLICY PROJECT: Well, you know, every objective study on marijuana has concluded it`s far less harmful than alcohol for the consumer and society.
GRACE: Can I ask you a question?
TVERT: Quite frankly, you know...
GRACE: Now, my question was...
TVERT: I suppose you can.
GRACE: I take it that -- I asked if you supported it, and you started talking about a study. Now, you say in your study that marijuana is better than alcohol. Can I ask you this? Are those my only two choices, that I`m either drunk or high on pot? Just because people get drunk and have crashes and kill each other and shoot each other and mayhem and murder takes place, why is marijuana my alternative? Why can`t I just be substance-free? What about that?
TVERT: Well, if you want to live in a dream world where no one wants to use alcohol or marijuana, that`s wonderful. But in the real world...
GRACE: Whoa! It`s not a dream world.
TVERT: ... these substances are widely used...
GRACE: It`s a real world-.
TVERT: ... and widely available.
GRACE: It`s a real world because that`s my world and that`s how I was raised. And call us crazy, but we`re very happy, Mt. Tvert.
Brad Lamm, help me out with Mr. Tvert, please.
BRAD LAMM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Well, it breaks my heart. We have another person that`s just talking out of one side of his mouth, which is, Pot is not as bad as alcohol. You know what, Nancy? It`s not as bad as meth, either. It`s not as addictive as cigarettes.
But to your point, it causes a lot of agony, and it breaks my heart that this is where we`re headed. The videotape of this guy on YouTube -- he`s just a buy in the back yard, probably stoned, maybe he`s paranoid, as a lot of people get when they get stoned. Think of quality of life and how it impairs you. That`s not the kind of...
GRACE: Hold on. I don`t know that that was...
LAMM: ... life that I want to live.
GRACE: ... just his back yard. Major John Carbone with us from Clinton. That looked like a pretty substantial pot farm, Major.
CARBONE: Right. That was hidden in the swamps of our region.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m looking for help from a stranger. I don`t need the help, but I want it. I don`t want to be a criminal. I don`t want to have to sell this. I need to get my marijuana license so that I don`t have to be a criminal anymore. And I need help financially. I suffered a severe head injury, and I don`t even think I`m thinking correctly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see, William Bradley, age 46, emboldened by Colorado legalizing pot, giving us a private tour of his pot farm. He`s capable of making millions of dollars on a pot farm that size.
We are taking your calls. I want to go back out to Ryan Broderick, reporter with Buzzfeed. You know, Ryan, this guy is known to police, and he clearly threatens to get marijuana into the hands of children. What do you make of that?
BRODERICK: Well, it`s a bizarre thing. People videotaping themselves smoking marijuana, growing marijuana, isn`t anything new for Youtube. But for a man to go so far as to detail exactly who he is, where he lives --
GRACE: And his zip code.
BRODERICK: And his zip code.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, look at that. That`s just part of what they seized. I like the dog, sitting there.
BRODERICK: That is a lot of marijuana.
GRACE: Responsible for the whole thing. What reason, if anything, does Bradley give for his marijuana use?
BRODERICK: He claims that he might have cancer. The only thing is --
GRACE: Did you say he might have cancer?
BRODERICK: That is the thing. There seems to be no verification yet whether he is actually ill.
GRACE: OK. Thank you, Ryan Broderick. To Major John Carbone, does this guy have cancer?
CARBONE: This isn`t anything I can really comment on. His friends are telling the world that he does. I really don`t know.
GRACE: Now, Major, let me ask you this. There`s nothing that I`m hearing him say regarding medicinal marijuana. You said he`s very well- known to police. What did you mean by that?
CARBONE: In 2008, we charged him with possession of over ten pounds. We`ve had him on -- recently on motor vehicle stop related charges where we found him in possession of narcotics.
GRACE: Okay. You know, maybe I`m wrong, but I don`t think even with medicinal marijuana, you need ten pounds. Major, ten pounds, uncut marijuana, sells for how much on the street?
CARBONE: Oh, I really -- I couldn`t tell you. It changes all the time. Thousands.
GRACE: Yes, at least. At least thousands. Because, you know, you can get a dime bag, and you multiply that into a pound. I mean, that is a lot of money, and a lot of pot.
Unleash the lawyers. Danny Cevallos, New York, Areva Martin, defense attorney in L.A. OK, Cevallos, what`s your defense? He`s busted on video, he even gives his zip code.
CEVALLOS: The major is loving this case. He`s got video evidence, he is giving his post office box. This is going to be a good case for them. Then again, we may look once marijuana becomes legalized, we may look back on this case as an example of civil disobedience. Even though at present--
GRACE: That`s your defense, civil disobedience?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Areva Martin, you got anything better other than civil disobedience?
MARTIN: I think, Nancy, this just shows the confusion now. People look at Colorado and Washington and think that pot is legal in their state. And they need to understand that it is not. This guy obviously is very confused.
GRACE: He was just busted on having 10 pounds with him. I don`t know if he really thought that, but he`s definitely been emboldened by Colorado.
Back to Brad Lamm joining us, addiction specialist and founder of Breathe, it is a life healing center. Also with us, Mason Tvert, communications director of the Marijuana Policy Project.
All right. Mason Tvert, let`s first ask you, what is the Marijuana Policy Project? What is that? And do you get paid by them?
MASON TVERT, COMM. DIRECTOR, MARIJUANA POLICY PROJECT: Well, yes, that`s my job. Our goal is to end marijuana prohibition, and replace it with a system where marijuana is regulated and taxed and treated similarly to alcohol. A system that a majority of Americans now think would be a much preferable system to the one that we have.
GRACE: Okay. And again, in a nutshell, if you could, you think marijuana should be legalized because, why? You do know it`s addictive? Highly addictive, right?
TVERT: Well, marijuana`s addictive properties have been found to be actually pretty mild, compared to not only alcohol and tobacco, but even caffeine. So the question is this--
GRACE: So are you admitting that it is addictive?
TVERT: -- do we need to be criminalizing adults, Nancy?
GRACE: You do admit that it`s addictive?
TVERT: Yes, so is sex, so are video games. The thing is --
GRACE: Well, I disagree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I disagree with you.
TVERT: You just don`t like people who use marijuana, and you want to see them punished. But the fact is that they are normal people just like you, they enjoy using marijuana for the same reasons people like to have a drink after work, and they shouldn`t be made criminals for it.
GRACE: Actually, Brad Lamm, the reason I`m against the legalization of pot is because I`ve seen too many felonies, and I don`t mean pot sales, or growing pot, like this guy in Connecticut, I mean people on pot that shoot each other, stab each other, strangle each other, drive under the influence, kill families, wipe out a whole family. The first time I ever had a pot case--
TVERT: You sound like you`re from the 1930s.
GRACE: No, no, but I have to -- hold on, Brad, the first time I ever came -- the first case, it was a plea. And there was this gorgeous lady standing in the middle of the courtroom crying. And I didn`t understand. I said, what is this case? Somebody else was taking a plea. They said, she`s a stockbroker. She got addicted to pot. She ended up losing her job. Wrecked her car. Couldn`t make the house payments on her house. So her husband got custody of the children. She now has no car, no house, no family, nothing.
LAMM: And the advocates for pot, to your point, sir, that`s advocating pot, is they are so thin-skinned. On one hand, they`re saying, hey, it`s no big deal, it`s not as addictive as alcohol or meth, it doesn`t wreck as many lives. And then I have all these moms over here with whom I work, and on Twitter, Nancy, who have said, this has wiped out our family. This has caused a lot of pain and suffering in the lives of our loved ones.
So one, the pot advocates have terribly thin skin. And I think there`s really the pot profit motive that he`s really advocating for more than anything.
GRACE: Brad, let me ask you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
TVERT: Sir, I work for a nonprofit organization. You`re a treatment specialist who gets paid because people get referred to treatment when they get arrested for marijuana. I mean--
GRACE: When they`re addicted to marijuana. Let me correct you.
(CROSSTALK)
TVERT: 90 percent -- okay. According to the Institute of Medicine --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMM: -- moral or ethical core of the work you do, sir.
Just because you have a nonprofit doesn`t mean you`re doing meaningful work. Anybody can have a nonprofit.
TVERT: Sir, give me a break. Come on. The fact is that the majority of Americans are on my side, because your side cannot come up with a legitimate argument for why we should keep criminalizing adults for using a less harmful substance than alcohol.
(CROSSTALK)
TVERT: Do you drink, sir? Do you consume alcohol?
LAMM: I don`t. I`ve been clean and sober for 11 years.
TVERT: You don`t? You don`t hang out with people who drink? You absolutely are sober.
LAMM: I do hang out with people who drink.
TVERT: You are one of 10 percent of Americans like that.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Brad--
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I guess that makes you and me complete space aliens, because the last thing I want is for the children, my twins to see me boozing it up -- I mean, when my husband drinks a Diet Coke, Brad, I make him put it in an opaque plastic cup. I don`t even want them to see him having soda, okay? If they want to (inaudible) when they`re 18, that`s their decision. You do have thin skin, Mason. You seem like --
(CROSSTALK)
TVERT: If you can see me, you can tell. The thing is, you guys are spewing these claims from the 1920s and `30s that have been debunked by the largest health and science organizations in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I think you`re both missing my point. And that point is, you seem to be offering me only a life where I`ve got to be drinking booze or I`ve got to be smoking or I`ve got to be high on pot. And you know what I really think? I really think there`s a different way to live.
When we come back, the desperate search for a 7-week-old baby girl. And as the clock is ticking down tonight, is there time to find baby Aniston alive?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, Memphis, and a desperate search for a 7-week-old baby girl. As the clock ticks down, is there time to find baby Aniston alive?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as where the child is, that`s in fact the $24,000 question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Walker (ph) told police she left her baby with her 3-year-old when she took another child to school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities are not buying it. They`re scouring the area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Walker knows what happened to her baby, but isn`t telling them the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether or not she`s not cooperating with the authorities, because they didn`t hear from her what they wanted to hear, maybe so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Dave, what is the mother`s story? What did she say happen to the 7-week-old baby girl?
MACK: She actually claims, Nancy, she took her 5-year-old to school, and left the 7-week-old baby with the 3-year-old son.
GRACE: Okay. Matt Zarrell, that doesn`t make any sense to me, that you`ll leave the 3-year-old child in charge of the 7-week-old baby?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, what mom claims is that she returned home a few minutes later and the baby was missing, but the 3-year-old was still in the house.
GRACE: OK, that also doesn`t make any sense. To Dr. Vincent diMaio, forensic pathologist joining me out of San Antonio tonight, Dr. diMario, thank you for being with us. What will they be looking for, forensically, inside the home?
DIMAIO: Essentially the police are going to work on the assumption that something bad happened there. They`re going to look for two things. One is blood from the infant. And the other would be any foreign fingerprints, or material that could be linked to somebody outside the family.
GRACE: You know, Matt Zarrell, I don`t really understand what the mother is trying to say. She is saying she had to take the 5-year-old to school and she leaves the 7-week-old baby girl, and a 3-year-old child at the home? What were they doing, according to her, when she left to take the 5-year-old to school?
ZARRELL: She has not elaborated to police exactly what she was doing. The mother says the house was locked, that there was no sign of a break-in. And Nancy, I should also note, when the mom got home, she didn`t call police. Instead, she called the baby`s father, and the baby`s father was the one who notified authorities.
GRACE: The little baby Aniston, only 10 pounds, she was wearing a little brown onesie with footballs on it. The tip line is 9015282274. To Brian Russell, forensic psychologist (inaudible) Investigation Discovery, Brian, thank you for being with me. Brian, to me, her story doesn`t make any sense. If you`re taking your 5-year-old to school, and it`s going to take half an hour, why don`t you just put the 3-year-old and the 7-week-old in baby seats and all ride together?
RUSSELL: Yes, you know, you and I have been covering these stories, sadly, for years. You`ve been a prosecutor. I`ve dealt with these people as a forensic psychologist. When people`s kids go missing and they don`t have anything to do with it, they`re desperate to find their children. Their stories make sense. As soon as we start to get inconsistency, uncooperativeness, any of that, unfortunately it doesn`t look good.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Danny Cevallos and Areva Martin. Areva, this story doesn`t make sense to me. And what caps it off is when she gets home and her 7-week-old baby girl is gone, she doesn`t call 911.
MARTIN: You know, Nancy, I think there`s so many facts that haven`t come out in this case.
GRACE: Like what?
MARTIN: What we do know is this is supposed to be a doting mom. We`ve heard reports that she loved her children, and that she had a stable job. She apparently worked for the government. And that all accounts, she was a good mom. So I think we have to be patient, as difficult as it is, until we learn more about this investigation.
GRACE: You know what? Areva, do you have children?
MARTIN: I have three, Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Have you ever left your 7-week-old child at home alone?
MARTIN: I`m not condoning the behavior of this mother leaving the 7- week-old baby.
GRACE: That`s a yes/no.
MARTIN: Of course I haven`t, Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why do you say of course?
MARTIN: Because you would not advise anyone to leave a 7-week-old baby with a 3-year-old. Not smart to do.
GRACE: All right.
MARTIN: But there are things about this case that we don`t know.
GRACE: Case closed. Thanks.
MARTIN: There are facts we don`t know.
GRACE: Just when you thought it was all over, Octomom back in the headlines. Tonight, we learn Nadia Suleman slapped with charges she scams welfare, reportedly raking in over $250,000. That`s a quarter of a million dollars she makes in one year. And she`s on welfare?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Just when you think it is all over, Octomom back in the headlines. Tonight, we learn Nadia Suleman slapped with charges she scams welfare. Reportedly, she rakes in a quarter of a million dollars in one year. Why is she on welfare?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Octomom is facing charges this morning accused of welfare fraud.
NADIA SULEMAN, OCTOMOM: I`m only taking the food stamps. There is not enough money in the world other than in the industry that I am probably going to delve into. Dance around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The venue that hired her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Alexis Teresczuk, senior reporter, radaronline.com. You interviewed Octomom. 250 large. Let`s say she made 30 something grand off of a video where I guess she masturbates or something, then she got what? Where is she getting all of this money?
TERESCZUK: She is getting it from the adult entertainment companies that are paying her. She received $60,000 from a California company called DD Entertainment, which is a PR firm. Another firm gave her $57,000 for her services. What she`s doing, she is also appearing on television shows, it`s even a small amount for her. At least, for anybody else it`s a lot of money, but she appeared on a television show called "Hater," and she got $800 from there. The thing is, you make all of this money, but she is actually then taking money from the state. She took $60,000 in welfare benefits.
GRACE: How many thousand?
TERESCZUK: 60,000.
GRACE: Are you saying 60,000?
TERESCZUK: Correct, I am. Don`t forget she has 14 children.
GRACE: Now, yes, I was just going to say, she has got 14 children, so $60,000 a year with 14 children is not that crazy. But if she is making over $150,000 a year, how can you be eligible for welfare? Look, with 14 children, you do what you got to do. I`m not slamming her for stripping or for being in a porn video. It`s not what I want to do, but I`m not coming down on her for that. I`m wondering how do you qualify for welfare if you are already making over 100 grand a year?
TERESCZUK: In California you can actually make $119,000 a year to get the $60,000. But she, according to authorities, she lied and she actually made $150,000. She hid $30,000 of that from the state so that she could take money from them. She didn`t qualify, and she lied and said she did.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nadia Suleman accused of not reporting nearly $30,000 that she earned as an adult video star and a stripper, all allegedly while applying for federal aid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me right now, Alexis Teresczuk, senior reporter with radaronline.com. Alexis, I was stunned when I read your article. I didn`t think you could qualify to get welfare if you are making over $150,000. And then she got, wait, she got $60,000 off welfare. And how much did she make that calendar year that we know of?
TERESCZUK: $150,000 and then combined with the year before, she made over $250,000.
GRACE: Tell me this. Alexis, there were recent reports about the conditions under which her 14 children were living. What do we know about how they are doing?
TERESCZUK: So the children are still with their mom. They have always actually done well. There have been so many people that have called and reported her to Child Protective Services. They have come out, they have done investigations. They have never found her to be an unfit mother, but they have said that the children live in almost squalor. The home is very messy. It`s -- there are holes kicked in the wall. Children have colored all over the walls. And the people that owned the homes that she has lived in since she defaulted on her own home a few years ago have evicted her because of her absolute lack of care for the homes that she has been renting.
GRACE: How many people are helping her take care of the 14 children? Does she have her parents helping her?
TERESCZUK: There used to be three and four nannies. Now she has so little money that she doesn`t have anybody helping her. Her parents do help her. Her mom and her dad live in the town over next to her, so they do help her, but she can`t afford to have people help her other than friends.
GRACE: Alexis, I really appreciate what you`re saying, but $250,000 doesn`t sound like so little money to me.
All right. Let`s stop and remember American hero, Air Force Tech Sergeant, Michael Flores, 31, San Antonio. Purple Heart, Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Force Combat Action Medal. Parents Leopoldo and Emilia. Sister Anna, brother David, widow Marisza (ph). Serving the Air Force. Children Eleana (ph) and Michael. Michael Flores, American hero.
Drew up next. I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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