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Nancy Grace
Dylan Farrow`s Story; Mom Brings Girl to Super Bowl for Prostitution
Aired February 03, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Off the top, another show biz icon, Woody Allen? Is he done? Bombshell tonight. The megastar outed by daughter Dylan, who claims Allen molested her for years starting at the tender age of 7. So why does Hollywood idolize him?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Renewed allegations of sexual assault from his adopted daughter, Dylan Farrow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "When I was 7 years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me in a dim, closet-like attic in the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother`s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, she looks like a suburban soccer mom, but police say a Florida mother brings her young daughter to the Super Bowl to prostitute her for, quote, "fetish stuff." I say she needs a Hail Mary pass right about now!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother and daughter travel from Florida to New York. She didn`t come to town to attend the Super Bowl. Police say the mother admitted that she planned to pimp out her young daughter, who`s only 15. The woman intended to pimp out her young daughter for sexual purposes. She believed her little girl would be specializing in "fetish stuff."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And a Hollywood superstar, Oscar Winner dead inside an exclusive Greenwich Village apartment, unresponsive on the bathroom floor, a needle in his arm, at least 50 bags of heroin strung throughout his luxury multi-million-dollar home.
Tonight, grainy surveillance video emerges just before the star`s death. What does it reveal? Was it an overdose or something more sinister?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifty bags of what`s believed to be heroin in his apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found with a needle in his left arm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doing an autopsy, evidence from the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Taking fingerprints or any other DNA evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about the drugs? Where did they come from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there any cameras? What happened in the hours leading up to his death?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do they think something more sinister may have happened beyond an overdose?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to high-end Orlando suburbs. An suburban babysitter uses a pink stun gun on three little children as punishment, calling it, lovingly, the electric chair?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Latina Smith (ph) using that stun gun-like device on three children she was taking care of.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When asked by the detectives, she did admit to having the stun gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely going too far. I feel sorry for those kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What they called the electric chair. They could not move or speak for an hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a puppy butchered, its ears and leg cut off intentionally. Somebody`s going to jail!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cutting off the ears and the leg from an innocent puppy!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pitbull puppy Miss Harper (ph). Someone cut off her ears and part of her leg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone cut them off!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Another show biz icon, Woody Allen? Is he done? The megastar outed by daughter Dylan, who claims he molested her for years starting before the tender age of 7. So why does Hollywood idolize Woody Allen?
Out to Rita Cosby, investigative journalist. You know, there was an investigation, and the prosecutor said on September 24, back when this occurred, that he believed there was probable cause to make an arrest.
But during that time is when Mia Farrow, Woody Allen`s long-time love -- they have a lot of children together -- when she discovered his -- what can I call it -- where`s Rita? -- her affair -- his affair with their other daughter, Soon-yi, and found nude photos that Woody Allen had taken of the child Soon-yi. And it was all during this, and it`s my understanding the case didn`t go forward because they reached a custody agreement, that Allen would have little or no contact with most of his children.
And the daughter Dylan -- as I know her, Malone -- and let me tell you, Rita, I know Malone personally. She worked for me every day, every workday anyway, for about a year here in New York.
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Long story short, she wouldn`t have to testify. She wouldn`t have to go through the pain of testifying, and the custody battle would be over. Is that how that worked out?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Yes, that is how it`s worked out. Woody Allen has denied this all along. But what`s so staggering is that now she has come out in this letter that was published in "The New York Times." And these allegations are explosive and very graphic, Nancy.
I mean, she says when she was 7 years old that her then adoptive father, Woody Allen, said, Let`s go upstairs, took her to a dimly lit closet, attic, told her to lay on her stomach and look at her brother`s electric train. And say says, Then he sexually assaulted me, and said, Be a good girl, you`ll be in the movies, this will be our secret.
And she said she could keep silent no longer. And she also says Hollywood basically forced her to keep silent because they kept giving him accolades as they continue to do.
GRACE: Well, and what pushed it over to the edge, David Caplan, celebrity journalist at Gossipdavid.com -- what pushed it over the edge, David Caplan, is that this last time, he got a lifetime achievement award in the last month or so. And watching that, the children couldn`t stand it anymore.
His other child, I believe was named Satchel, now goes by the name Ronan actually tweeted, Where does this fit in with his molesting my sister, somewhere around "Annie Hall"? That was the gist of his tweet.
And it`s hard for me to understand why this wasn`t prosecuted at the time because he`s got a track record. And Caplan, you know what I say, when you don`t know a horse, look at his track record. You already found naked photos of Soon-yi, who he apparently isolated, and then, quote, "married" after dating -- dating -- his minor daughter.
So now is it so hard to believe what Dylan is saying?
DAVID CAPLAN, CELEBRITY JOURNALIST (via telephone): No, yes, it`s definitely not hard. There is a precedent here with him and this type of behavior. And you know, the Golden Globes (INAUDIBLE) was really just sort of -- I think it just pushed them over the limit, you know, leading Ronan to tweet, saying, you know, This Woody Allen tribute, did they put the part where a woman publicly confirms he molested her at age 7 before or after "Annie Hall." And you know, we`ve already had a couple celebrities who were ID-ed in her -- the letter -- the post she wrote in "The New York Times," but just Alec Baldwin and Cate Blanchett taking to Twitter and responding to them being mean in the letter.
GRACE: You know, I don`t think that it`s up to Alec Baldwin and Cate Blanchett (ph) to rectify what has happened. I`m just curious...
CAPLAN: Oh, I agree. And Alec Baldwin...
GRACE: But I understand where she`s coming from because it`s like rubbing salt in the wounds. And she even said, You knew me as a little girl, Diane Keaton. Have you forgotten me?
And you know what? Let`s listen to the letter. Woody Allen, the superstar, he`s movie royalty, but that`s not all. According to his daughter, he is and has long been a child molester. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "When I was 7 years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me to a dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother`s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret, promising that we`d go to Paris and I`d be a star in his movies.
"Others are still scared, vulnerable and struggling for the courage to tell the truth. The message Hollywood sends matters for them." She goes on to write, "Woody Allen is a living testament to the way our society fails the survivors of sexual assault and abuse."
"That he got away with what he did to me haunted me as I grew up. I was stricken with guilt that I had allowed him to be near other little girls."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. With me Jeff Gold out of Atlanta and Midwin Charles, defense attorney out of New York.
All right, Midwin Charles, let`s hear your defense. Are we just so star-struck by Woody Allen that we can`t see the forest for the trees?
MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think we all know that Woody Allen is a celebrity, and of course, some might say that perhaps he got preferential treatment. But Nancy, you and I both know the way the criminal justice system works. You are innocent until proven guilty. I doubt that those prosecutors would not have gone forward with this case if they didn`t have a lot of evidence...
GRACE: As a matter of fact...
CHARLES: ... to support them.
GRACE: ... that`s not what the prosecutor said in a public statement. And in the past weeks, he has reiterated that he stands by his original statement back on September 24, when this first broke a long time ago.
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLES: ... go forward with the prosecution.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But there are a lot of reasons for going forward with a prosecution...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And it does not necessarily mean that there is not evidence.
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CHARLES: That`s what you do as a prosecutor!
GRACE: Jeff Gold, I believe it has been very plainly stated by the prosecution that there was probable cause to go forward, but the child was spared testifying at trial.
That does not mean Allen, Woody Allen, is any less guilty just because he wasn`t prosecuted in a court of law.
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, there was an allegation, so there was probable cause based on her original word. But remember, there was three court-appointed psychologists that examined her and came out with...
GRACE: Put him up, please!
GOLD: ... two conclusions. Those two conclusions were, number one, she couldn`t distinguish fact from fantasy, and two, that she was probably coached. So the prosecutor was stuck with those court-appointed experts` reports. That`s why they didn`t proceed.
GRACE: Actually, are you familiar with what happened to their notes and all of their data in those reports, that Yale group of shrinks that were brought in? You know what happened?
They destroyed their notes, and they would not allow all of their information to be shown to the court. And the judge himself said, I don`t have faith in the group of experts. I think they were blinded by Woody Allen`s fame. That`s what the judge says, and that is what Dylan Farrow is saying right now. We`re all blinded, blinded by Woody Allen`s fame!
I want to go to Catherine Torrez, survivor of child sex abuse and private investigator joining me tonight out of Dallas. Catherine, does it ever end? It seems like whenever a child comes forward, you`ve got some expert willing to say, yes, they don`t know a truth from a lie, they don`t know fact from fiction.
This girl is now 28! She is a mother of two. And I know her. I worked with her every day here in our Manhattan studios. And I believe her. I believe her. And I think the justice system failed her.
CATHERINE TORREZ, SURVIVOR OF CHILDHOOD SEX ABUSE: I tend to agree. I believe that a child that goes through something like this at that time, a lot of times, the parents and different people want to protect the child from having to testify because testifying in a court and facing the accuser, and most of all, facing all these 12 jurors that you don`t even know -- that is really a challenge for a child, and overwhelming.
And I know I had to do it as a 9-year-old, and I was so embarrassed that -- and humiliated and guilty-feeling for what my testimony was that I giggled through it, and he was found not guilty.
GRACE: When we come back, police say a Florida mother brings her young daughter to the Super Bowl to prostitute the girl for, quote, fetish stuff.
Then later, a puppy butchered, its ears and leg cut off intentionally?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did that little puppy have to go through this? She didn`t ask for this? You know, what did she do to deserve this? Nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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GRACE: You know, she looks like a suburban soccer mom, but police say a Florida mother brings her young daughter to the Super Bowl to prostitute the girl out for, quote, "fetish stuff." Well, I say Mommy needs a Hail Mary pass about right now!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 39-year-old Florida woman is behind bars after traveling 1,300 miles to New York City. Police say the mother admitted that she planned to pimp out her young daughter, and the girl in question is only 15 years old. And according to cops, the mother told them that she believed her little girl would be specializing in "fetish stuff."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, everybody is all caught up in Super Bowl fever, but police say this Florida mother brings her teen girl to the Super Bowl not to go watch the game, not to watch the Broncos and the Seahawks, oh, no, but to pimp her out for fetish prostitution.
To Noam Laden, news anchor with WABC. Noam, what happened?
NOAM LADEN, WABC (via telephone): You know, there`s two Super Bowls that go on during the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl -- you know, the Broncos versus the Seahawks. And then the second Super Bowl is the Super Bowl of prostitution that goes on at the same time. You have prostitutes and enslaved women that are brought in to where the Super Bowl takes place, and that`s what happened here, this 15-year-old girl brought by her own mother to New York City some 1,300 miles because she thought she could make money off of her.
GRACE: Norm Laden, WABC, how was she busted?
LADEN: Well, it was pretty simple, actually. Because there`s this Super Bowl prostitution going on, you have the FBI, Homeland Security, local police -- they`re monitoring all these Web sites where these escorts, prostitutes sell their wares. And they -- they caught their attention and they made a date with her.
GRACE: Joining me, Sheila Houston, sex trafficking survivor. She`s joining me out of Seattle. Sheila, thank you for being with us. I notice in the police documents, the mom says, I thought my daughter would just do the, quote, "fetish stuff." OK, what`s that?
SHEILA HOUSTON, SEX TRAFFICKING SURVIVOR (via telephone): Well, I`m not quite sure what she meant by that. I really don`t know what she meant by fetish.
GRACE: What is your experience, Sheila?
HOUSTON: Well, it sounds like to me that the mother was committing domestic minor sex trafficking of her own daughter. What I see as is her mother, she was forcing her daughter into providing sexual fantasies for men.
GRACE: With me is Sheila Houston, founder of Rare Coins Ministry.
Back to you, Noam Laden. The mother looks like a suburban soccer mom. And it`s my understanding that an undercover police officer was actually approached, and the mother was pimping the girl out for sexual intercourse in exchange for $200.
LADEN: Yes, and you know, so they met up with her, and she just dropped a dime on her mom. She turned her right in. She said, you know, I was brought here by my mother.
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing a shot of Yolanda Ostoloza, who traveled all the way from Florida with her daughter by car, bringing her to the Super Bowl -- her daughter has just turned 15 -- to pimp her out and do, quote, "fetish sex."
All right, Michael Christian on the story. What more can you tell me?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Nancy, according to police, once the daughter, the 15-year-old, told them that her mother was involved, she told them where her mother was, at another hotel in New York. They went to arrest the mother, and they say the mother came right out and said, quote, "We came up here to work and make money with a pimp. I knew it was for escorting and prostitution."
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So the mother never denied that she had done this. She came right out and said, I brought my daughter up here to turn her into a prostitute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mother and daughter travel from Florida to New York the week before the Super Bowl. But they`re not there for the big game. The woman intended to pimp out her young daughter for sexual purposes. And the girl in question is only 15 years old. Her little girl would be specializing in "fetish stuff." The mother admitted that she planned to pimp out her young daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Noam Laden, news anchor with WABC. It`s my understanding that the Super Bowl is like a hunting ground for underage sex and drugs.
LADEN: Yes. I mean, you have it absolutely right. You know, this is not the first time it`s happened in New York. I can tell you back in 2010, when the Super Bowl was in Florida, they said they brought in about 10,000 assorted prostitutes, a lot of them really just enslaved women, teenagers taken off the streets brought in by pimps who were making money off of them.
GRACE: Well, interesting, I notice when the mom is confronted by the undercover officer, the mom says, "We came up here to work and make money with a pimp. I knew it was for escorting and prostitution. I thought my daughter was just going to do the fetish stuff." When she says "we," is Mommy hooking, too?
LADEN: You know, I don`t have any evidence that she was hooking, as well.
GRACE: Me, either.
LADEN: It seems like it was only her daughter that was doing it.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, Jeff Gold, Midwin Charles. All right, Midwin. That`s a heck of a way to teach your daughter the birds and the bees.
CHARLES: I mean, it`s absolutely disgusting. I mean, I just can`t believe that a mother, a woman who is supposed to protect...
GRACE: You`re the defense lawyer, Midwin.
CHARLES: I know.
GRACE: this is your kind of client.
CHARLES: Actually, it...
GRACE: What`s your defense?
(CROSSTALK)
CHARLES: I digress. I mean, it`s -- it`s -- well, I guess at this point, you don`t have a defense. She said she did it, so I don`t see how you can defend somebody...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... Jeff Gold.
CHARLES: ... who says that she did it.
GOLD: Well, I think she`s trying to create a defense by saying it`s just the fetish stuff, and maybe that just tickling or maybe that`s feet or that`s hands...
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: That may have nothing to do with intercourse.
GRACE: Tickling? So Jeff Gold...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... idea of fetish is to get tickled?
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GOLD: It`s not my idea of a fetish, but there are all kinds of fetishes out there. That`s the defense she`s setting up.
GRACE: If this were just for tickling, there wouldn`t be an arrest warrant, Jeff.
GOLD: I don`t know -- I don`t know what fetish she meant. I`m telling you the defense she`s setting up. I don`t know what actually happened.
GRACE: Tickling. Tickling.
GOLD: Yes.
GRACE: OK, well, I`ve got a Florida mother in custody in New York for bringing her child to New York, to the Super Bowl, to pimp her out. And I don`t think it was for tickling, Jeff Gold!
When we come back, a Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner dead inside an exclusive Greenwich Village apartment. Was it an overdose or something more sinister?
And then later, a puppy -- a puppy -- butchered, its ears and legs cut off intentionally?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why should a little puppy have to go through this? She didn`t ask for this. You know, what did she do to deserve this? Nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A Hollywood superstar, Oscar winner dead inside an exclusive Greenwich Village apartment, unresponsive on the bathroom floor, a needle in his arm, at least 50 bags of heroin and trace amounts of heroin thrown throughout his luxury multi-million-dollar home. Overdose or something more sinister?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifty bags of what`s believed to be heroin in his apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found with a needle in his left arm.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doing an autopsy, evidence from the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Such as fingerprints or any other DNA evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about the drugs? Where did they come from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And were the any cameras? What happened in the hours leading up to his death?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do they think something more sinister may have happened beyond an overdose?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rita Cosby, investigative journalist. A timeline is emerging in this, and Hoffman leaves behind three children, three of them, one age five. Long-time love of nearly 20 years, I believe it was 15 to 17 years. There he is, would always walk the children to school, walk them home, he is dead. Give me the timeline, Rita.
COSBY: It`s such a tragic story, Nancy. What we know is that at 8:00 on Saturday night -- first before that, he went to dinner with two guy friends. People said that he was not drinking but he did not look well. Then there are reports that he went to an ATM and took out money, and also met with two messengers. So that`s what authorities are investigating --
GRACE: Wait, back it up. Rita, that might work on some other show, but what do you mean by messengers? You mean dopers?
COSBY: That`s what it looks like. Authorities believe that. They don`t know. They`re checking our these reports. But you can bet they`ve got surveillance video of the ATMs, and of course if he was involved with purchasing drugs at that time, that would be key, because the sad part is, at 11:15 Sunday morning, Nancy, a friend and another friend, he was supposed to pick up his kids, he didn`t show up. So a friend and another friend show up at the apartment. He is found dead in the bathroom wearing a t-shirt and shorts, with a syringe in his left arm filled with heroin. And as also you pointed out, 50 bags of apparently heroin called the ace of spades.
GRACE: To Dorothy Casieri (ph), host of "Celebrity Corner." Dorothy, 50 bags?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy. It sounds like something unbelievable, but this is what reports are indicating. That at least 50 bags of heroin were found. Two bags were labeled ace of spades and ace of hearts, which is a street slang for heroin.
GRACE: With me right now, addiction specialist and founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers, Brad Lamm. Also with me, Norm Kent, president for the National Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws. Brad, 50 bags of heroin?
LAMM: Well, I think when you go on relapse and you decide that you`re going to use the drug, you seek safety. And one of the ways you can do that when you are on relapse is know you`re not going to run out, so that news was not surprising, it was just more heartbreaking --
GRACE: I`m surprised. 50 bags? He just got out of rehab.
LAMM: Well, you know, the sad thing about addiction, Nancy, is many will relapse and then stay vigilant to stay in recovery.
GRACE: Norm Kent, you want the reform or the legalization of marijuana, and you`ve got to know by now, Norm, that it`s a gateway drug. When you see people dying of drug overdoses, I just don`t know how you can look yourself in the mirror and with a straight face continue to advocate for legalization of drugs.
KENT: Well, first and foremost, marijuana is not a gateway drug. If it`s a gateway, it`s a gateway to higher education and moral responsibility and ending a horrible prohibition. Second, we need to arrest the abuse and not criminalize the abuser.
GRACE: What are you talking about, arrest the abuse?
KENT: Let`s stop putting people in jail for marijuana.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m not going to stand by for your rhetoric, Norm. How do you arrest abuse? That is complete B.S. And I`m calling you on it, Kent.
KENT: I can`t believe that you can try to call me on a system that advocates harm reduction and dealing with people in their pain. That`s more what your friend Brad Lamm does.
GRACE: I don`t know how long it`s going to take for you to realize legalizing drugs is not the answer. Brad, help me out.
LAMM: Nancy, Norm --
KENT: It`s no more toxic than aspirin, Nancy.
LAMM: Norm denies the thing we`ve known for a long time, is that ask anybody that comes in my front door at Breathe, where they started and their drug story. And nine times out of ten, it started with pot or alcohol. And so gateway drug is --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Stop, stop, I want to hear Brad for a moment. Go ahead, Brad.
LAMM: So Nancy, your use of the term gateway drug hits the nail on the head. For so many people who graduate to heroin, pot is just that, it`s the gateway into using drugs, and for people prone to addiction, it causes problems.
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GRACE: And here`s the other thing, Brad. I mean, he, Hoffman, Philip Seymour Hoffman, had it all. He had a beautiful family, a beautiful love, a fantastic career. He was brilliant, brilliant, in his acting. He had money, ooddles of money, rolling in money. If he can`t beat it, who can? With all of that going for him, if he can`t beat the addiction, Brad Lamm, who can beat the addiction? I want you to hammer it home, Brad, because apparently Norm is deaf. You are saying that people come to your clinic, and nearly every one of them started their drug story with pot or booze.
LAMM: Pot or booze. Absolutely hands down, Nancy. And keep this in mind. If you`re a person that doesn`t have a problem with alcohol or drugs, then you`re unlikely to be an addict. So the idea that Norm gets so defensive about us talking about the dangers of real drug addiction and abuse just confounds me.
GRACE: Norm, I want to follow up on that. How many more dead bodies will it take? And you`ve got Lamm here. He was an addict himself. Now he runs a Breathe Life clinic to help addicts. He is telling you -- he doesn`t have a dog in the fight. He`s not getting paid for this appearance, not one red cent. He is telling you that most of the people that come to his clinic started with either booze or marijuana. Why can`t you hear that?
KENT: Because our society needs to cater to the responsible majority, not the reckless minority. And those individuals like Brad that develop a problem should be treated, and that`s why I said earlier, arrest the abuse, not the abuser.
GRACE: They are not a reckless part of our society. They are mothers, fathers, they have jobs. They`re not just a reckless part of society you`re referring to. I really resent that, because I`ve seen addicts that are just as upstanding as us three. Brad, is that true?
KENT: I don`t want them to go to jail. I don`t want them put in cages. I don`t want police knocking down their doors and arresting them and scaring their children and using guns. The only people who get killed by marijuana are people running from cops, Nancy.
GRACE: Liz, cut his mike. Brad, it`s the only way. Here`s your chance. Go for it. Run.
LAMM: The idea that there is a responsible part of a person who is struggling with addiction is preposterous. If you`re addicted, if you are struggling in active addiction, you will not make the right decision. You will go for the drug every time. That`s why it`s so important to get the family on board with recovery and not just expect the addict to do it alone.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Clark Goldband. What more can you tell me about the crime scene, Clark?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, we have now learned that according to sources, there weren`t just 50 bags in there, there were close to 70. According to reports, 20 of those bags were used --
GRACE: Did you say 70 bags? 20 of them had trace amounts and the rest were full of -- how does that work?
GOLDBAND: That`s what sources are telling us, that a total of 70 bags, 20 possibly used, 50 in reserve. But something that caught my eye, Nancy, while researching this story is that you don`t see advertisements, obviously, for the drug heroin. What you see when you buy them, these bags of heroin are branded. For example, Myspace, Twilight, Cash Money and even the Recession.
Now, what we know is that there were two brands found on the bags inside of Philip Seymour Hoffman`s place, possibly Ace of Spades and Ace of Hearts, those likely found on the bags that are considered to be heroin. Now, some shocking statistics that you will not believe. Check this out. Just ten years ago, 166,000 Americans were using heroin. Ten years later, Nancy, that`s more than double to almost half a million people in the U.S. using heroin, and it doesn`t stop there. Perhaps the most shocking statistic we found, check this out. The average age of the first-time user is around 15 years old. 1-5. A teenager. And why? Because Nancy, in a lot of cases, what we`re seeing is that it`s even cheaper than abusing prescription pills.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lifeless body of Philip Seymour Hoffman in his bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Academy Award winning actor was found dead.
PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN: Since I was a child, folks thought they had me pegged because of the way I talk. And they`re always wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heroin was also located in that apartment. And that a needle was also found in his arm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than 20 used syringes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A Hollywood star dead in his apartment. Apparently the apartment strewn with over 50 bags containing heroin. Back out to you, Clark Goldband. What else was found on the scene?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, authorities are combing the scene, and what I can tell you is, right now, at this hour, an autopsy is being conducted on Philip Seymour Hoffman. Now, that will also show us what is in the toxicology report, which could be key. Authorities, you saw the drugs behind me just a few moments ago, trying to trace back where any assumed heroin may have come from. This case could quickly turn larger than just one dead Hollywood actor.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Jeff Gold and Midwin Charles, also with me, Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist out of Columbia. Dr. Dupre, what do you go through, what do you suffer when you die of an overdose like this, whether you push the needle in or somebody else does it for you? What does your body go through?
DUPRE: Basically, Nancy, you will become sleepy and you`ll simply pass out.
GRACE: So he didn`t suffer any pain. Does your heart just give out? Do you have a heart attack? Do you quit breathing? Does your respiratory system fail? Your brain doesn`t tell your lungs to breathe?
DUPRE: Yes, Nancy, that`s almost exactly what happens. Your respiratory system and cardiac system both shut down. You may get pulmonary edema, but essentially you simply go to sleep. It`s basically a painkiller, and you just die.
GRACE: You know, with me, Norm Kent and Brad Lamm. Brad, addiction specialist, the founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers, Kent the president of the National Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws.
<20:45:00>
GRACE: He wants drugs legalized. Brad, what I don`t understand is how someone can sit by and hear not just a star like Hoffman, a superstar, but anybody O.D. and just go to sleep. And with heroin sometimes, it`s too hard to even push the needle yourself because of the thickness of the solution. Very often, as in the case of Belushi and others conjectured, that you actually have to have somebody push it in for you.
LAMM: Well, there`s the question, was he alone? It didn`t, frankly, surprise me, Nancy, that he had this apartment off and away from his home where he could go and do his own thing. Some of the secretive behavior you see in addicts when they are on relapse. I also wonder, Nancy, whether just him being an actor, such an amazing actor, you know, led to a more difficult time with his family. Because people who are in addiction are often telling lies and making stuff up to cover their tracks, and I wondered if that made it even harder for his family to help him.
GRACE: You know, Norm, it just still escapes me how apparently you`re an intelligent man, how you can stand by and hear that somebody was fighting it, fighting it with all their heart, even going to rehab. He had been clean for over 20 years. I think around 25 years, totally clean. And you want --
KENT: It`s a terrible loss, Nancy.
GRACE: And you want drugs legalized. I don`t understand that.
KENT: I want marijuana legalized because that is a safer approach for society.
LAMM: Let me ask you this, Norm.
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: -- treating these addictions if we can deal with them openly.
LAMM: If asked right now, would you say we should legalize opiates, too, i.e., heroin?
KENT: No, Brad, there is no such thing as a recreational use for heroin. There is a distinction between--
GRACE: In your mind.
KENT: -- 30 million people being arrested for the use of marijuana over the past quarter century, and people using heroin harmfully.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s go to Greg Cason, a psychologist joining me out of L.A. Greg, isn`t it true that very often, people graduate from pot to harder drugs, to other drugs. It`s called a gateway drug.
CASON: Absolutely true, Nancy. I think we`re fooling ourselves if we don`t think so, because those are the drugs that are most used, alcohol No. 1, marijuana No. 2, but believe it or not, prescription of drug abuse, just going into somebody`s medicine cabinet, is No. 3. So people can graduate from these drugs to start using heroin, so legalizing marijuana is not going to keep somebody --
GRACE: But you know, you heard, Greg, you hear Norm Kent. No matter who tells him, and everyone in normal is the same way no matter who tells him marijuana is a gateway drug, pot users just don`t want to hear it. They can`t hear it with me. Greg Cason, psychologist from L.A. Norm Kent and Brad Lamm.
When we come back, a suburban babysitter uses a pink stun gun on three little children as punishment, calling it lovingly the electric chair.
And then later a puppy is butchered, its ears and leg cut off intentionally?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
<20:52:00>
GRACE: A baby-sitter disciplines three little children with a stun gun and she lovingly calls it the electric chair? Ken Jackson, writer with the Osceola News Gazette, what?
KEN JACKSON: Exactly. I`ve got one at home myself. And I thought the same thing. But this all happened on Thursday. The oldest of the three did something in class, was going to be disciplined by the teacher. And when the teacher threatened to call her home, the girl said, you know, please don`t do that because I`m afraid of getting this sort of treatment with this stun gun. Well, the teacher alerted the school officials, and by protocol the school officials called the police, who came and made a report. They interviewed all three children separately. And they all gave the same report, that when they misbehave, this woman, Latina Smith, who is not the children`s mother, she`s actually the mother`s cousin. Makes them stand against the wall, but then slide down, if you can picture it, into like a sitting position against the wall. And if they move or they talk for an hour, within an hour, they get -- they were -- she would hit them with this what sounds like a stun gun.
GRACE: Incredible.
JACKSON: And they all reported that it hurt very much.
GRACE: With me is Ken Jackson, writer with the Osceola News Gazette. Take a look at what a stun gun will do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do it.
Oh! It hurts. It`s painful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Stacy Miller, PIO with the Kissimmee Police Department. Stacy, I`m stunned that a baby-sitter could use a taser on children?
STACY MILLER, PIO, KISSIMMEE PD: It is very, very startling, Nancy, it is.
GRACE: Stacy, what is the baby-sitter looking at? What kind of sentence is possible?
MILLER: I`m not sure about the sentence. Obviously, that would be left up to the judge and going through the whole judicial process, but we have charged her with three counts of child abuse.
GRACE: Well, according to my look at the statutes, it is five years on each. That would give it a 15-year sentence if run consecutively. A baby-sitter using a stun gun on three children as discipline.
When we come back, a puppy butchered. Its ears and leg cut off intentionally. Somebody`s going to jail.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
<20:57:50>
GRACE: Tonight a puppy butchered, its ears and leg cut off intentionally. Somebody`s going to jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Harper, someone cut off her ears and a part of her leg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A puppy is now being treated after authorities say she was missing ears and a leg.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An arrest too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Noam Laden, news anchor, WABC, how are we going to prove this? Do we have any idea who the dog belonged to? It`s just a little puppy.
NOAM LADEN, WABC RADIO: You know, the Society for the Protection of Animals says they are putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and they think they`re very close to making an arrest. So they seem to think they know who is behind this.
GRACE: To Wendy Diamond, animal advocate, editorial director of animalfare.com. Wendy, thank you for being with us. Weigh in. I`d like to hear what you have to say.
DIAMOND: My reaction is, first of all, I think we have to kind of look at the laws. They`re antiquated. When these laws were -- pets were considered chattel, personal property. We are responsible for these animals. They`re dependent upon us. And if we can change these laws, the people that are doing these heinous acts to these animals will be prosecuted as if these were children.
GRACE: I agree 300 percent, Wendy. I think the key is right there, prosecute these as if these were their children.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Sergeant Grant Wichmann, 27, Golden (ph), Colorado. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal, loves snowboarding and soccer. Parents Robert and Lenora, brother Keith, widow Michelle, son Austin (ph). Grant Wichmann, American hero.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, until then, good night, friend.
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