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Nancy Grace
New Orleans Teen Goes Missing After Flat Tire; Ear Witnesses Testify in Pistorius Trial
Aired March 04, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, St. Tammany suburbs. A teen girl, honor student, leaves school, gets a flat tire. She`s never seen again. Bombshell tonight. What do pings on her cell phone reveal? Tonight, where is Hayley?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dean`s list student who was recently accepted into pharmacy school was headed to classes at UNO, then to work uptown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we haven`t found her car or her phone. And the last person that we know that she talked to was someone on the side of the road who helped her with a flat tire.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re wanting to find our daughter safe and sound. We miss her. And you know, anything anybody knows, please, please call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Oscar Pistorius, superstar, aka "blade runner," shoots to fame breaking world records, even running on prosthetic leg blades, the Olympic icon sobbing in court, but police say he wasn`t crying the night he guns down his girlfriend, now claiming he thought she was an intruder.
Intruder? He`s been laying next to her all night in lingerie. Intruder? No way! Will the case turn on a critical ear witness?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two witnesses saying they thought that they heard his model girlfriend screaming before gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in a voice (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four shots rang out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) before (ph) the shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And "Real Housewife" today turned real convict tonight, Teresa Giudice and her big flirt of a husband, Joe, busted after feds hone in on their lavish lifestyle. I`m talking about a million-dollar mansion and thousands, thousands on a birthday party for their little girl, and they brag about it endlessly on "Real Housewives." Well, apparently, the feds didn`t like that too much after they`re caught lying on federal forms to get even more money. Their greed has no bounds!
In the last hours, "Real Housewives" Teresa and that husband of hers in court pleading guilty. They live in a mansion tonight, that`s true. But now they`re headed to the big house with no chandeliers, Teresa!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A prison time deal looming for the couple.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a Jersey girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The flashy couple whose fortunes have turned sour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) stick the camera in my face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very real.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s facing possible deportation (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one can knock me down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from Bravo`s "Real Housewives of New Jersey."
And tonight, real-life "To Catch a Predator," a well-respected elementary school principal with six children and grandchildren, multiple post-grad degrees, busted in a the real-life sting, reports principal John McGill (ph) stung on child sex charges and stated, quote, "I taught other girls before."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. McGill was arrested this weekend and (INAUDIBLE) investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. McGill, who is 56 and served as principal at Mount Carmel for 16 years, is charged with possession of child pornography and violations of the Child Exploitation Prevention Act, one of 14 men arrested in a multi-agency four-day (ph) sex sting operation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Life to St. Tammany suburbs. A teen girl, an honor student, leaves school, gets a flat tire. She`s never been seen again. Tonight, what do pings on her cell phone reveal? Where is Hayley? Hayley, as I said, an honor student. Her car -- neither her car nor Hayley have been found.
Straight out to Michelle Southern, assistant news director, Louisiana Radio News Network. Michelle, we have been investigating this since she goes missing. We can`t get a straight answer from anywhere. Is it because it`s Mardi Gras and she`s just lost in the sauce? I mean, there hasn`t been a police presser, nothing. We`re having to dig like a road crew trying to find out about this girl!
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, LOUISIANA RADIO NEWS NETWORK (via telephone): Well, I would definitely say that that may be a factor, and it definitely ups the urgency when it comes to her being missing. Mardi Gras weekend in New Orleans is definitely probably the busiest time of the year for the city, lots of visitors in town, lots of uncertainty.
GRACE: You`re seeing shots of Mardi Gras, and in the middle of all this, police are supposed to find a missing girl? This girl, a teen, Hayley Howard, 5-3, 105 pounds, last seen knee-length black dress with polka dots, black shoes in her 2002 silver Toyota Corolla, plates XB- Brother-P-Pennsylvania-643.
How are they going to find her in the middle of all this? Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, how did Hayley go missing?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: (INAUDIBLE) sad story. First she goes to classes. As you mentioned, she`s on the dean`s list, Nancy. Then she goes to work at Superior Seafood. Then she goes out with friends, drops a friend, female friend off at the door. The last time anyone hears from her is around 2:00 AM. She calls her boyfriend to say, I have a flat tire. She`s on the campus or near the campus. She said, A group of nice people helped me fix the tire. And that`s the last time she`s been heard from again.
GRACE: Take a look at this girl. An honor student gets a flat tire. She hasn`t been seen since. We have been contacting every authority we can get our mitts on, but in the middle of Mardi Gras, how are they going to find her?
Everything is upside down. Let me just tell you, it`s a big drunk going down in New Orleans right now. And we`re trying to help find a teen girl, Hayley Howard, who goes missing in the middle of all this.
What can you tell me -- Michelle Southern is joining us from Baton Rouge. And Michelle, hello to all of our Cajun friends there in Baton Rouge. Let me ask you this, Michelle. What can you tell us about pings on her cell phone?
SOUTHERN: Well, what`s interesting here is since she was last seen at 1:50 AM on Saturday morning, reportedly spoke to her boyfriend at 2:00. The cell phone tower on the University of New Orleans campus was pinged at that time. Now, 15 miles away at 6:00 AM, at the Irish Bayou cell tower, is where New Orleans police say her cell phone was pinged again. So that`s (INAUDIBLE) 15 miles away, not the 45 miles it would take to get to her home in Slidell.
GRACE: OK -- oh, she`s from Slidell. I`ve been there many, many times, Michelle. Michelle Southern, just go over that timeline with me one more time. 1:50 AM, she is at the dorm. She is at the dorm. 2:00 AM, she`s talking to the boyfriend. Then we`ve got 6:00 AM is the next activity on her phone? Is that correct, Michelle Southern?
SOUTHERN: That`s right. And the Irish Bayou cell tower -- the thing about where that tower is located, where there might be some gray area, it`s right before the section of I-10 from New Orleans to Slidell that runs over Lake Pontchartrain. So that`s where a lot of the focus has been on right now...
GRACE: Oh, did you just say Lake Pontchartrain? Have they been diving the lake yet, Michelle? Have they dived Lake Pontchartrain?
SOUTHERN: That`s what they say, that the St. Tammany parish sheriff`s office, New Orleans deputies, police officers, you know, from all over are looking with sonar equipment. They are diving because, unfortunately, that is another possibility in this case.
GRACE: So they are doing dives and using sidescan sonar along Pontchartrain to try to find her car or her body? Is that right, Michelle?
SOUTHERN: It`s hard to say. And you know, we are experiencing some unusually rough winter weather right now in south Louisiana. So the conditions on the lake have certainly posed a challenge to this effort. I imagine so. You know, we`ve got...
GRACE: Well, I understand that, Michelle Southern. I understand that. But let me tell you, her family and friends don`t want to hear about bad weather.
Rita Cosby, I can`t understand this. Have they or have they not dived Lake Pontchartrain? And have they or have they not used sidescan sonar up to tonight`s (ph) point?
COSBY: My understanding is they`ve done some preliminary dives. They have not used sonar, claiming that the waters are not calm enough. But as you said, that`s no solace for this family.
GRACE: When you say preliminary diving -- they`re going to have to do a lot more than that. Now, question. Back to you, Michelle Southern. Where the ping was, you`re telling me it was near Lake Pontchartrain, but was it on either side of the bridge? How close to the water do we know the ping emitted?
SOUTHERN: I`m not -- the actual cell tower itself is right before you hit the lake on I-10. That`s on the New Orleans side of Lake Pontchartrain. So it`s possible that, you know, she could have already gone onto the bridge and it would just still ping there, but she very well could have been on the other side still in New Orleans, as well.
GRACE: You know, that`s something I don`t know, Michelle. I don`t know if you get an immediate ping or if you get a ping when you have activity. I`ve got to find that out. Is there a delay? It seems to me it`s an immediate ping as soon as you turn your phone on or you get a text.
Out to the lines. Bonnie in Louisiana. Hi, Bonnie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is -- you got the ping on the cell phone. Was she talking to some of her family members?
GRACE: Yes. Good question. Hold onto Bonnie and I`ll take her next question. Michelle Southern, assistant news director, Louisiana radio. Michelle, let me ask you this. Didn`t she tell her boyfriend on the phone that she got a flat?
SOUTHERN: That is what we have been told, that she told her boyfriend, who is the last person who has reportedly spoken to her at 2:00 AM, that she had a flat tire and that she had, you know, run into some nice people. And that was at approximately 2:00 AM, again, near the UNO -- University of New Orleans campus.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was told by her boyfriend, the last person to speak with her, that they were nice people. A group of nice people helped me change the tire, she said. And she wanted to go -- apparently, she had left the area and wanted to go back in, thank them and pay them. And we just got to have faith, you know, in God that all this will work out. And we`re going to try to hold our heads up and search, and you know, hopefully, we can find something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the middle of Mardi Gras, this teen honor student goes missing. She gets a flat. She`s never seen again.
Joining me right now, very dear friends of Hayley Howard, Elizabeth Gelvin from Slidell, and Daniel Lemonier, also a dear friend of Hayley`s. First to you, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, I understand she told her boyfriend on the phone that she had a flat. So we know she had a flat, correct?
ELIZABETH GELVIN, FRIEND: That`s what she said, yes.
GRACE: Tell me about Hayley.
GELVIN: About Hayley?
GRACE: Yes, tell me about Hayley.
GELVIN: OK. Well, Hayley is a student at UNO, as you know, just got accepted to pharmacy school. And she manages to work a full school schedule, work a job on the side and have a really active social life. I mean, she`s so funny. And I don`t know -- she really means a lot to all of us. She`s funny and beautiful.
GRACE: I know she does, Elizabeth. I know she does. Also with me, friend of Hayley`s Daniel Lemonier. Tell me what makes you the most worried about her, Daniel.
DANIEL LEMONIER, FRIEND: Well, obviously, there`s a lot of things, but the main thing is just that after four days of not knowing anything, you know, we just -- we don`t have any leads or evidence. You know, we don`t know where the phone is, the car is. So we`re still just kind of waiting in the dark for some kind of answer.
GRACE: Daniel, tell me about the last time you spoke to Hayley. What, if anything, did she say?
LEMONIER: Well, that night, we had a friend who was celebrating a birthday -- nothing too huge, but we were all just kind of at his house in Slidell. And she was getting off of work in New Orleans and she was planning on coming. I was talking to her throughout the night, and eventually, she just stopped answering her phone. And then (INAUDIBLE) I thought maybe she had gone home, and you know, fell asleep or something. But that would be the last time I talked to her, would be that night.
GRACE: Clark Goldband, what more can you tell me?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, they`re in search of this 2002 silver Toyota Corolla, as you can see behind me. But guys (ph), take a look at this map. There is a massive search effort, and here`s why. As you can see, this is where she left the bar where she hung out with her girlfriend. She dropped her back here at the university dorm, the University of New Orleans. And then the 2:00 o`clock came right there, right by the campus. You see it behind me.
Now, four hours later -- we`re only talking about 14 miles, very short distance to cover in four hours. At 6:00 AM, that`s the time we see the cell phone ping. As you can see, she`s traveling north towards her home, but that`s the last we hear from the missing co-ed.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Joe in Florida. Hi, Joe. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, there, Nancy. Love you, love your show. I have a comment and then a question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The comment is, with all the high-tech stuff around today, GPS and everything else, isn`t it surprising we can`t locate people even faster than we are? And my question is this. If I were her boyfriend and got a call in the middle of the night, I`d rush to wherever she was. What did the boyfriend do, just hang up the phone and hope everything was fine?
GRACE: You know what? That`s a good question. To Daniel Lemonier. When she called and told the boyfriend that, I`ve got a flat, didn`t she say that she had someone that was going to help her?
LEMONIER: She actually called after they helped her. I think he was told -- yes, he was told after the fact that this group of people noticed that she had broken down and helped her change the spare tire and all that. So I don`t think he was even aware that her car was, you know...
GRACE: Ah. Ah.
LEMONIER: ... in any (INAUDIBLE) until after the fact.
GRACE: Everybody, the tip line, 504-821-2222 -- 504-821-2222.
When we come back, Olympic icon Oscar Pistorius, aka "blade runner," shoots to fame breaking world records, even running on prosthetic leg blades, now claiming the night he guns down his girlfriend, he thought she was an intruder. But at this hour, will the case actually turn one critical ear witness?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Olympic superstar Oscar Pistorius, "blade runner," shoots to fame, breaking world records even on prosthetic leg blades. But the Olympic icon sobbing in court. Police say he didn`t cry the night he guns down his girlfriend, claiming he thought she was an intruder. Well, she`s been lying to him -- lying next to him all night in a negligee. Intruder? No way. Will this case turn on a critical ear witness?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors allege Pistorius murdered Reeva Steenkamp after a heated argument.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A second witness said that she heard loud voices coming from his home for an hour the night that the Olympic sprinter`s girlfriend was shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shot her through a bathroom door with his .9- millimeter pistol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me from the courthouse, Andre Neveling, editor with "Heat." He has spoken with Pistorius and Steenkamp. Sir, thank you for being with us. I understand that one witness claims she heard blood- curdling screams just before shots rang out. And in the last hours, her husband has taken the stand and he corroborates what she said. Yet another witness says she heard arguing from Pistorius`s home before the shooting. Is that correct, Andre?
ANDRE NEVELING, "HEAT" (via telephone): Absolutely, Nancy. The two witnesses, the husband and wife, obviously have the same story. However, the third witness -- they were all in different locations, and it depended where they were, how close they were to the house as to how much they would have heard. So the one that was closer would have heard arguing, the others further away would have heard the gunshots.
GRACE: Also with me, anchor and international correspondent Robyn Curnow. Robyn, thank you for being with us. What happened in court today?
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that what was very clear is that you had heard these three witnesses by day two, so it was fast-moving. Two of those witnesses, as you`ve just said, were husband and wife. And even though they did describe quite traumatic scenes, were quite emotional at times, particularly the woman, witness one, crying at one point, it is very important to stress that under cross-examination, her testimony particularly was picked apart by Oscar Pistorius`s defense.
In particular, this issue of whether or not the screams that she and her husband perhaps heard were not that of Reeva`s but that of Oscar`s, that essentially, his defense was arguing that Oscar screamed like a girl.
Now, you might say, Ha, ha, ha. There were a few mocking headlines here on the streets and the street posters today, but in the second witness`s statement, when she took the stand today, she said after she heard shots, she woke up in the night. She said to her husband, I`m hearing somebody harcrahail (ph), which in Afrikaans means cry hardly (ph), cry loudly. She said to her husband, Who`s that? He said, Oscar. And she said, No, it sounds like a woman, it sounds like a girl.
Now, this is crucial. Are the screams the shouts that Oscar Pistorius said that he did, that he screamed for help after he shot her and realized that he had made this terrible mistake and yelled out, Help, help, help? Did he sound like a girl? Was it so hysterical, so traumatic that it was a woman`s high-pitched type scream, and all those ear witnesses, all those eyewitnesses, whatever you want to call it, thought it was Reeva? So it is very clear, very important that this is not a turning point in the trial.
GRACE: Dr. Cathleen London joining me. I`ll be right back with you, Robyn. To Dr. Cathleen London. Dr. London, what can we learn from the injuries, the bullets themselves, the trajectory path and so forth from the murder victim`s body?
DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, PHYSICIAN (via telephone): Well, number one, you can determine the cause of death. My understanding is one went into her head above her ear, and that`s probably the fatal one. One went into her arm near her elbow, and one into her hip. So unless the other two hit a major artery and she bled out from them, then it was probably the bullet to her brain that -- that -- that killed her.
But regardless, if his story were true, it`s possible that she could have been saved. I mean, that`s what I`m not understanding here because that information would be really important because was she still alive? Was she salvageable after these shots hit her?
GRACE: You mean, after the shot in the right elbow and the right hip, could she have been saved? Because the shots went on after the screaming. So I agree with you. If she was shot in the elbow or the hip first, she could have very well been saved.
With me, Dr. Cathleen London joining me out of New York. Andre Neveling from "Heat" also joining us, along with Robyn Curnow.
Andre, isn`t it true that the holster to Pistorius`s gun was under the bed on Reeva`s side of the bed? So he kept his gun in the holster. He would have been getting the gun out from under the bed on her side. He didn`t notice she wasn`t there?
NEVELING: Well, that is the big mystery, isn`t it. That is the big question that everybody`s asking, How do you not notice that the person isn`t there? There are too many gaps. There are too many (INAUDIBLE) questions that haven`t been answered yet.
GRACE: Everyone, when we come back, real housewife today turned real convict tonight, Teresa Giudice (ph) and husband Joe in court pleading guilty.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Real housewife today turned real convict tonight. Teresa Giudice and her big flirt of a husband Joe busted after feds hone in on their lavish lifestyle. In the last hours, plead guilty. They live in a mansion, that`s true, but they are headed to the big house with no chandeliers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pled guilty to five counts.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pled guilty to four counts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Alexis Tereszcuk, senior writer, Radaronline.com. I don`t know if the feds would have ever gotten on to them unless someone in the federal government has been watching "Real Housewives," because boy, do these two brag. Let`s see that home, Liz. Good lord in heaven, what was that, a ballroom? Back it up. I didn`t know people actually had ballrooms in their home anymore.
We`re seeing a tour. They spend -- what? It looks like an institute. And then -- okay, that chandelier is as big as, I would say, my kitchen, my whole kitchen.
Not jealous and not bitter on this end because it`s just this kind of lavish display that alerts the feds when these two, Teresa and Joe Giudice -- is how they`re saying their name this week -- try to fill out documents to get even more money. More money, Alexis Teresczuk. Their greed apparently knows no bounds. They apparently according the feds, they pled guilty, not apparently, lied in writing on federal documents to get even more money. What happened, Alexis?
TERESZCUK: Well, you are exactly right. And that house you`re talking about is a $1.7 million house. Not only that house, they actually own two other houses. They have a beach home worth $350,000 and another vacation home worth $200,000.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Alexis, I know somebody has been watching too much TV, and it would be you. So how do you know, Alexis Tereszcuk, talking about all these vacation homes. Where is the beach house? Do you know that?
TERESZCUK: The beach house is actually in -- down on the Jersey shore, and it was affected by superstorm Sandy. They`ve actually had a lot of damage to their home. It`s a nondescript home, but they have a boat. They go there on vacation. In fact, last summer when they were getting indicted, they were playing on the beach down on the Jersey shore while all the charges were being --
GRACE: That`s one home. Then you said there is another vacation home?
TERESZCUK: There is. It`s in Lincoln Park, New Jersey. That`s not a beach house, just another vacation home.
GRACE: Okay. So two vacation homes, and then this behemoth -- I can`t take my eyes off it, I guess that`s why they get such good ratings. I can`t stop looking at that home. What do they do, they all just drink and fight with each other on "Real Housewives," Alexis?
TERESZCUK: That`s exactly what they do. We often call them booze- fueled fights. This is all these women do together. They talk about each other --
GRACE: Alexis, let me back this up. That`s neither here nor there. What I`m concerned about is what happened in court. But before I go to Lina Jacobson, who was in court today, joining me right now is Kim Granatell. I`ve got a funny feeling that`s not how you`re supposed to say that, former cast member on Bravo, and this says enemy of Teresa? I don`t know what that means.
Kim, this over-the-top display of lavish lifestyle when people are literally wrapped around the soup lines and looking for jobs, to me it`s very disturbing. Are you surprised at these charges, that they would lie in writing on federal forms trying to get even more money?
KIM GRANATELL: You know, Nancy, I`m not surprised because -- and I feel sorry because I really believe this is a way of life for them. They only know this way. So you have to continue on until finally you`re just all falling apart, and it did it. And to live like that, I live out here in Jersey -- I mean, in a community not too far from them, and it`s all about whose home is bigger and who has what and who can beat whom, and they just wanted to keep up. But it wasn`t about old-fashioned hard work, it was about how I can get away with it and have that without that work.
GRACE: You know, I have just the exact opposite reaction when I see big houses and fancy cars. I think, man, they`re in hawk up to their neck and that car is leased, people. Kim joining us, former cast member of Bravo`s "Real Housewives." Lena Jacobson, senior producer in court with us. What exactly did they plead guilty to, Lena?
JACOBSON: Joe pleaded guilty to five counts, his wife pleaded guilty to four counts, and these really run the gamut of lying on mortgage applications, creating fake W-2 forms and pay stubs for Teresa. Also not paying income taxes for eight years to the tune of over a million dollars, so it really was a range of charges.
GRACE: Lena, back up, please. Whoa, whoa, what did you say about a million dollars?
JACOBSON: Joe pleaded guilty to not paying income taxes between 2000 and 2008.
GRACE: Eight years? Eight years?
JACOBSON: Eight years, and I have the exact number here. $1,246,000 of no taxes.
GRACE: You know what, I`m so -- you know the feds don`t play, do they, Lena? Because you mess with the feds on your taxes, you`re in trouble. So he just didn`t pay for eight years. What did he say, I`m from Italy, we don`t have taxes over there?
JACOBSON: Well, he did, but he came over here when he was very young. Now he may face deportation, and he actually claimed through his attorney he didn`t know he was not a citizen. That`s hard to wrap your head around, but that`s what he said, so he could be booted out after he gets out of jail.
GRACE: What about her? What did she plead to?
JACOBSON: She pleaded guilty to the same things except not paying taxes. She admitted she forged W-2 forms, pay stubs to get mortgages--
GRACE: Forged w-2?
JACOBSON: Made them up.
GRACE: Can I please see Lena? When I have a W-2, it`s like from a computer. What do you mean, forged it?
JACOBSON: They made their own. She had no job. She claimed she was a real estate agent earning $12,000 a month. Meanwhile, she was home. They made these documents up, mailed them, and that`s why they`re charged with mail fraud along with other charges.
GRACE: Very quickly, don`t go anywhere, very quickly, back To Kim. Kim, do you remember that birthday party she threw for one of her daughters that cost like 30 to $50,000?
GRANATELL: Yes.
GRACE: What was at the birthday party? Why did it cost so much?
GRANATELL: Let me explain. I don`t, you know, the thing is this, Bravo doesn`t pay for anything, so any kind of party you put on, that`s up to you. So, you know, if you want to show the audience -- I guess they wanted to show the audience that, hey, you know something? Look what I have, and if you have this home, apparently you can throw a birthday party like that.
GRACE: Well, you know what? They may have been thinking they were showing the audience, but they were showing federal investigators just how much they were lying.
When we come back, real-life to catch a predator. A well-respected elementary school principal with six children plus grands and multiple post-graduate degrees busted on child sex charges.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, real-life to catch a predator. A well-respected elementary school principal with six children, and grandchildren, multiple post-graduate degrees busted. In the real-life sting reports principal John McGill stunned on child sex charges and stated, quote, "I taught other girls before?"
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shock. Disbelief.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The principal has stunned this community.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people you really do need to trust, you can`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He responded to a location.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McGill was arrested during a GBI sting operation. GBI officials say the purpose was to arrest people who communicate with children online and then travel to meet them for sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Ninette Sosa with All News WYAY. Thanks for being with us. It`s like a real-life "To Catch a Predator." I don`t know if you ever saw that program where they do stings. This is exactly what police say happened here. What happened, Ninette?
NINETTE SOSA, ALL NEWS WYAY: From Saturday evening to Sunday, he apparently went and made contact through Craigslist, and the ad was, a mother seeking someone for her teenage daughter. So the arrest warrant, which was obtained by a local media outlet, says he responded to that, and that`s where the quote came from, the arrest warrant, that says, via the phone and e-mail, that he told the mom, quote, "I have taught other girls," and, quote, "he would go slow." That`s what he had to say to this mom, and at that point, authorities stepped in, GBI stepped in and ended this Operation Broken Heart. And they nabbed him.
GRACE: I just have got to ask his lawyer here, everybody that`s from MSNBC, "To Catch a Predator," his lawyer very well respected in the Atlanta and Villarica (ph) area, Mac Pilgrim. Mac, I have to ask you, what did your client mean when he said, I`ve taught other girls before? Taught what?
MAC PILGRIM, ATTORHEY: That`s a good question, Nancy. That was only part of the conversation. We don`t know what was said between law enforcement and Mr. McGill.
GRACE: According to police, it`s nothing good.
PILGRIM: According to them, that`s what they are saying. Again, that`s only part of the conversation. The warrant itself was read in open court earlier today, he received a bond. It`s a situation where we don`t know the full context.
GRACE: Is he out on bond?
PILGRIM: He`s not out yet.
GRACE: How much was his bond?
PILGRMI: He was granted $50,000 bond today.
GRACE: 50,000. That`s 5,000 in court talk. Whoa, what judge gave him $50,000 bond?
PILGRIM: Magistrate Judge in DeKalb County.
GRACE: Named?
PILGRIM: Judge Jason (ph).
GRACE: Judge Jason in DeKalb County gave him a $50,000 bond, which equals -- unleash the lawyers, Brian Claypool and Robert Schalk. Robert Schalk in New York, $50,000 bond, that`s just $5,000 he has to come up with.
SCHALK: It`s only $5,000, but at the end of the day, if he has no prior criminal contacts, and has contacts to the local community, it`s more than appropriate. He has to check in with the bail bondsman on a regular basis--
GRACE: What I just love and appreciate so much about you defense attorneys how you quote certain portions of the law that you like. Brian Claypool, the rest of the law as it applies to bonds is not a threat to the community. If he`s answering a sting to have sex with a child and he says, I`ve taught other girls before, would you let him baby sit your children, Brian? I would think he poses a threat. Why is he out on bond?
CLAYPOOL: Well, Nancy, I happen to be a single dad of an eight-year- old girl, and I`ll tell you this. The bigger issue here is what happened at that school for years where he was an assistant principal. I would immediately start investigating that school and interviewing every child in that school --
GRACE: You totally ignored the question. Why is this alleged pedophile out on bond?
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GRACE: A well-respected elementary school principal with children and grandchildren, all these post-grad degrees, busted in a sex sting. All right. You`re the lawyer, Mac Pilgrim. You represent John McGill. I can see you on your set just twisting and turning and waving your arms. What? What? I said suspected child pedophile. I didn`t say pedophile.
PILGRIM: You used the term pedophile. That has great connotations in our society.
GRACE: Yes. It certainly does.
PILGRIM: He`s simply alleged to have engaged in some sort of Internet contact, and if you read the warrant, if you take the time to actually read the warrant, the warrant says -- and you can read the code section of the warrant which you can actually look at and you can pull it if someone from your section will pull it and read it, the actual warrant says he`s involved in a particular code sections of the law. And the code section of the law says--
GRACE: Wouldn`t that be child exploitation?
PILGRIM: Actually, it would be 161621100.2 (ph).
GRACE: I don`t know what that is. I know it as child exploitation, is it not?
PILGRIM: It is.
GRACE: OK. Don`t throw numbers at me, Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: The number is the law. The law is important, because that`s what he`s charged with. Whether we try it in the court of public opinion is a different story. The man is charged criminally. So criminally is what we have to look at. That`s what I`m here for, is to defend his criminal rights. And the rights he has under the law.
GRACE: With me is Mac Pilgrim, attorney for the principal John McGill. Clark Goldband, his lawyer, Mac Pilgrim, says he`s not being charged with being a pedophile. I thought he was charged with answering an ad on Craigslist to have sex with a child.
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, according to the information we`ve researched, the exact charge -- and let me glance down at my paperwork here -- is electronic pornography and child exploitation prevention. Carrying a maximum of 20 years if under the most severe charge.
Now, here`s what we`ve also learned about this man. He`s married with six kids. He`s got three grandchildren. He`s been in the public school system almost 20 years. He`s got multiple degrees, but take a look at this. This sting was not just about this one principal, Nancy. They took down more than a dozen other people, including professional employees like people that work at the airport, software engineers, and even a musician.
GRACE: Back to Nanette Sosa, a reporter with WYAY, what was the name of the GBI sting?
SOSA: The name is Operation Broken Heart. It centered in DeKalb County. And it involved 37 locals along with state and federal agencies just to bring the 14 men down, but most prominent is the principal, who I wanted to say along with that $50,000 bond, he`s also to, quote, not have contact with children.
GRACE: To Dr. Gayle Saltz joining me, Dr. Saltz, if these allegations are true, what is he thinking answering a Craigslist ad for sex with a child? Of course he`s going to get busted.
SALTZ: Well, if this is true, it`s likely it`s occurred before and he`s been getting away with it, which means he`s thinking that he`s just not going to get caught.
The urges for someone who is a pedophile can be incredibly intense. And they can rationalize to themselves and continue to do this behavior even though obviously there is the possibility of getting caught.
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GRACE: Real life "To Catch a Predator." This elementary school principal just arrested on claims he answered a Craigslist ad for sex with a child. It was a sting.
Joining me, his very well respected defense attorney, Mac Pilgrim. Mac, you go on and on about how no age was listed in the warrant. Yes, I know the child has to be under 16. Do you really think the cops would have arrested him if the child was under 16?
PILGRIM: There is no child. That`s the point.
GRACE: It`s a sting.
PILGRIM: There is no child. So the child has to be under 16. There has to be some sort of an allegation that the child is under the age of 16. There`s no mention of that in the warrant.
GRACE: What about the Craigslist ad?
PILGRIM: The Craiglist ad, I don`t know what the nature of the Craigslist ad.
GRACE: What did this ad say about the child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It says the mother who posted online was looking for someone to help a mother seeking someone for her teenage daughter. And that again is according to the arrest warrant.
GRACE: Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Pilgrim may actually have a point here.
PILGRIM: Teenage daughter, that could be 19.
GRACE: Brian Claypool, Robert Schalk, it`s a devil in the details. The Craigslist ad didn`t say the age of the child. Unless the mom talked about the age of the child on the phone with the elementary school principal, the case may go right down the tubes. What about it?
SCHALK: Yes, Nancy. A lot of times these investigations, the investigators don`t put the right age limits, they don`t have the defendants say the things that are required under the statutes to prosecute these cases. And oftentimes, these cases do fall apart, because as we`re talking about it, there`s a fictitious person that doesn`t exist.
GRACE: Don`t try to trick the viewers. We know a sting is fictitious. It`s not real. We just have to have the defendant making the overt act to have sex with a child. Claypool, what about the fact that the age of the child is not mentioned in the Craiglist ad? What about if the mom talked about the child being 13 or 12 on the phone? That would suffice, would it not?
CLAYPOOL: Well, it might. I mean, Mac`s got a point, if the age isn`t listed. If it`s just teenager, 18 is a teenager. 19 is a teenager.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m giving you your answers on a silver spoon. I just said that. I`m asking you a different question. You know what? I`m going to leave it up to Mac Pilgrim and the cops to figure this one out. Because Schalk and Claypool are giving me the party line.
You know what, let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Mark Juarez. 23, San Antonio. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal. Loved automechanic work and his red Dodge Neon. Parents Cynthia and George. Brother Dominick. Son Aaron. Mark Juarez, American hero.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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