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Nancy Grace
Tampa DA Says No Death Penalty for Murder Mom; 911 Calls From Minivan Mom Released
Aired April 02, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tampa suburbs. Police race to a multi-million-dollar mansion, a beautiful girl sitting at her computer, doing homework in her own bedroom, dead, her little brother in the family garage, still buckled in the car, dead. Who`s the gun-toting shooter? Mommy, lounging by the pool in a house robe covered in blood!
But why? She says because her children talked back. With over $1 million in assets, Mommy hires a public defender that we`re paying for, a secret jailhouse meeting where her high-ranking military husband says, I want a divorce.
Bombshell tonight. Now Mommy claims she`s crazy -- crazy like a fox! And the state actually backs off the death penalty with two dead children? Tonight, no justice for Calyx and Beau!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julie Schenecker is accused of a heinous crime against her own children. Prosecutors say the New Tampa mom shot her kids, Calyx and Beau, because they were mouthing off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) found a revolver, bullets and a receipt for the gun. The day she was arrested, investigators say Schenecker confessed to killing her kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now the death penalty isn`t in place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And a frightened young mom panics, and she and her three children chased, shot at in their minivan, the attackers beating in the windows, chasing Mommy at high speed, even shooting directly into the minivan with the children screaming inside. Tonight, the attackers are the police. And it`s all caught on video. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) We`re on the highway! (INAUDIBLE) They`re chasing us! They`re trying to kill us!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One officer bashed her window in with his baton and another shot at her van.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Naples. After her children beg her not to do it, a mom of five screws up her courage and goes for the so-called Brazilian butt lift. But it all goes wrong, and tonight Mommy is dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Florida mother of five travels to Miami to have a Brazilian butt lift. It should be routine surgery. But for 51-year-old Marabel Cardona (ph), something went horribly wrong. Within hours of undergoing the procedure, the woman is dead of a pulmonary embolism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And a million-dollar home, a $1.2 million yacht, a luxury lake home, $3 million in the bank -- cops say even with millions, they steal nearly a quarter million dollars in welfare, food stamps, even stealing prenatal vitamins from the government. In the last hours, the wealthy aristocrats who claim they`re Scottish royalty spotted in the Bahamas. Hey, you danced to the music, now it`s time to pay the fiddler!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrea Chisholm (ph), fraud...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never ridden on a yacht that nice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It turns out the Chisholms (ph) were booted from the Bahamas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He claimed he was a Scottish (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives were tipped off and waiting on the ship`s arrival at Port (ph) Everglades with handcuffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Mommy leaves 8-year-old Relisha Rudd with a family friend, but tonight, police insist she is in grave danger. At this hour, the search goes on for 8-year-old Relisha Rudd. We discover her kidnapper, 51-year-old Karl Tatum, has an extensive criminal history. The last (ph) two seen on grainy surveillance video. He`s leading the 8-year- old into a Holiday Inn Express motel room. Then shocking discovery, a body found, but it`s not the 8-year-old little girl. Tonight, we uncover more clues in the search for 8-year-old Relisha.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search at Kenilworth Park for Relisha Rudd. Searchers discovered the body of Khalil Tatum in the park.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears he had been here for a least 36 hours but could have been here for several days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there is still no sign...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Upscale Tampa suburbs, a beautiful young girl sitting at her computer doing her homework in her own bedroom -- she`s a straight-A student -- dead, her little brother in the family garage, still buckled in the car, straight from soccer practice, dead. Who`s the gun- toting shooter? Mommy.
But now Mommy claims she`s crazy -- crazy like a fox! And the state backs off the death penalty. Tonight, no justice for Calyx and Beau. Two children, straight-A students, dead, and the state`s not seeking the death penalty?
Straight out to Roger Schulman, anchor with WWBA. Roger, take us back to the day these two bodies were found. What happened?
ROGER SCHULMAN, WWBA (via telephone): Well, she picked up her son, Beau, the 13-year-old, from soccer practice, drove him home and shot him to death. Then she goes upstairs with a .38-caliber pistol that she had purchased recently and goes into the bedroom where her daughter was doing her homework and shoots her to death. And then she goes downstairs and sits on the porch with blood on her head (ph), wearing a robe, and waits.
GRACE: But you know what`s interesting, Roger Schulman? After she shoots her children dead, and -- and -- and when cops asked her what happened, she said she was angry because they continued to talk back to her.
Tonight, her high-ranking military husband demands a divorce, but we learn about e-mails she sent immediately after gunning down her two children, a straight-A honor student girl who`s sitting at her computer, doing her homework, her little son straight home from soccer practice, still strapped in his seatbelt -- both gunned down dead. But she tries to cover her tracks.
Clark Goldband, isn`t it true she sends a series of e-mails or texts right after the shooting to her husband, acting as if nothing`s wrong?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, according to Hillsborough County prosecutors, that`s correct. Take a look at one of these e-mails right over my shoulder. You see it says, "Get home soon. We`re waiting for you." That`s from Julie Schenecker to her husband, who`s stationed overseas. According to authorities, this was actually sent after the kids were killed.
Now, let`s take a look at the next e-mail. It doesn`t stop there. She then begins to brag about the grades! "Calyx has all As and Bs." She`s bragging after the kids were allegedly murdered. Also, not just to her husband, Nancy, but to her family, she sends this e-mail. "You`ve always been there for me." And she goes on and on to say she`s so sick mentally -- that e-mail perhaps one of the last ones sent before she`s arrested by authorities.
GRACE: You know what? I find it very, very interesting that -- Roger Schulman, you know, when somebody`s crazy, insane -- and I have had them in court -- they`re, like, smearing their own feces on the wall. Let me see a picture of the two children, Liz. I`m not interested in her trying to act crazy. I`m interested in the two children that were gunned down by their own mother.
They have hallucinations, they have auditory and visual hallucinations, but they don`t really go about writing e-mails going, saying, Hey, I`m really crazy, Roger Schulman, but that`s what she did.
SCHULMAN: She, in her defense, if she wants to go for the insanity defense, which I think is what they`re trying to do -- she had been diagnosed with severe depression in 1992. She was on medication from `92 daily, to `97 to 2001. She had pill bottles...
GRACE: Oh, whoa, whoa!
SCHULMAN: ... containing oxycodone...
GRACE: Hold on!
SCHULMAN: I mean...
GRACE: Let me ask you a question, Roger Schulman. I know she says she`s depressed, but didn`t she plan this? Didn`t she go a couple of days before the shooting, and she has to get a permit and all that, buy a gun? And isn`t it true that she got boozed up on alcohol and oxycontin and crashed her car, and the children didn`t want to ride around with her anymore?
That doesn`t necessarily sound like depression to me. That sounds like Mommy is popping oxycontin.
SCHULMAN: Well, she also had bipolar disorder with psychotic features, schizoaffective disease along with severe depression. So she definitely had problems for years. It was no secrete she had difficulties.
GRACE: OK, let`s address that. Let`s address that, Roger Schulman. First to the lines. With me, psychologist Caryn Stark.
Carolyn, Massachusetts. Hi, Carolyn. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why aren`t they seeking the death penalty? I mean, this, of course, looks like she did not (INAUDIBLE) that she planned it and she meant it. I don`t care about the drugs or whatever. I have depression, and I would never think of anything like that.
GRACE: You know, good question. I don`t understand why they`re pulling the death penalty off the table. All along, the court said the death penalty would be applicable if a jury returned it. The state said they were seeking the death penalty. Now, practically on the eve of trial -- this is set to go to trial in a few weeks -- the state pulls back the death penalty. What, they`re afraid because the defense is going to say she`s crazy?
You know, unleash the lawyers, Paul Batista, Shireen Hormozdi. Shireen Hormozdi, she`s caught red-handed, literally. She lounging by the pool in her housecoat, covered in blood, when police get there. She`s gone out and she`s bought the gun the day before. She`s been complaining -- oh, yes, there`s the pool. She`s trying to cover her tracks, acting like nothing is wrong, with her husband.
It seems to me that the state should try the case and let the jury decide because I don`t think this woman is crazy, Shireen.
SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The fact that the DA reduced this and found her caught (ph) red-handed shows that...
GRACE: The DA did not reduce it. It`s still a murder one charge. They`re saying they`re not seeking the death penalty.
HORMOZDI: And they got it right because of the mitigating circumstance...
GRACE: I`m asking -- you know, Caryn Stark, she says she`s depressed. Where`s Caryn Stark -- psychologist Caryn Stark out of the New York studios. Caryn, she says she`s depressed. But what we have uncovered is that she`s boozing it up and popping oxycontin and driving. She crashed her car.
Bipolar or depression does not equal insanity. Insanity equals under the law, Caryn -- you know this better than I do -- you don`t know right from wrong at the time of the incident.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Nancy, and there`s -- what you`re talking about, the gun and the fact that she did that three days ahead of time, that means that there was intent there. It sounds premeditated to me. However, she is mentally ill. That`s for sure. There`s no doubt about that. But there is no proof that she didn`t know the difference between right and wrong, and I think that`s...
GRACE: Did you see all those...
STARK: ... the point you`re making.
GRACE: Did you see all those pill bottles?
STARK: Right.
GRACE: I mean, she`s taking all those pills. Did you see all that wine that was open there at the scene? Mommy`s boozing it up, taking oxycontin. And let me remind you, Paul Batista, that the voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense.
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, that`s true. But she is exhibit A, Nancy, for the insanity defense, and the state recognizes that by letting go of the death penalty phase of this. She looks like the exact person you need to establish that defense.
GRACE: She looks like...
BATISTA: ... to establish that defense.
GRACE: ... she wants you to see her! No! No! She was perfectly fine up until this incident. She was not shaking when she went in there and got a gun. She wasn`t shaking when she went to the liquor store and bought all that wine. She wasn`t shaking when she got into the car high on oxycontin and crashed her car!
What about it, Clark Goldband?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, the prosecutor`s office has said that they don`t think that this verdict, if it comes back guilty, would withstand the Florida supreme court, which is why they chose to drop it.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDBAND: But Nancy, keep in mind...
GRACE: If they really think she`s insane, why are they going for life without possibility of parole? Why are they even trying her? If they`re so convinced she`s insane, why try her? When I get people in court and I believe that they are insane, they`re schizophrenic, they`re insane, I don`t put them to a trial. I don`t send them to a jail where they`ll be tortured by the other inmates. They need to go for treatment. If that`s true, if she`s insane, why is the state still even prosecuting her this way?
And when police asked her what happened, she said very calmly, as cool as a cucumber, My daughter wouldn`t stop talking back to me. That`s why she bought the gun. That`s why she killed her children. That`s why she`s going to trial. And tonight, there will be no justice for these two little children!
When we come back, a frightened young mother and her three children chased and shot at in their minivan, the attackers beating in the windows, chasing Mommy, even shooting into the minivan, knowing the children are inside screaming, three children inside the car. Tonight, the attackers are the police, and it`s all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) We`re on the highway! (INAUDIBLE) They`re chasing us! They`re starting to kill us!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A frightened young mother panics when she and her five children chased and shot at in their minivan, the attackers beating in the windows, chasing Mommy at high speeds, even shooting into the minivan with the children screaming inside. Tonight, the attackers are the police, and it`s all caught on video. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How in the world does a routine traffic stop turn into this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were doing 71 back there in a 55, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oriana Ferrell and a state police officer are arguing over a ticket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll be right back. Go ahead and turn the vehicle off for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But as the cop walks off, Ferrell does the opposite, pulling away instead. So he pulls her over again. The officer isn`t too happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the vehicle. Get out of the vehicle right now!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not trying to do anything wrong. I`m just trying to take them to the Rio Grande.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Finally, Ferrell agrees to get out and talk, but the conversation doesn`t last long.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around and face your vehicle. Ma`am, listen to me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ferrell and the cops struggle as she tries to get back into the van. Back-up arrives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open the door!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open the door!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ferrell starts to drive off, while another officer fires at the minivan full of kids as young as 6.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard to tell exactly who was on the phone, but the 911 dispatcher believes it`s Ferrell.
911 OPERATOR: Where are you at? Where are you at?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s just almost too much to take in. Look, it`ll be a cold day in H-E-L-L when I side against the police. And I know she did wrong at the beginning when she slowly drove away. This whole thing is over a speeding ticket. I think she was doing, what, 45 in a 25?
To Andrew Stiny with "The Albuquerque Journal North." Andy, how did it turn into this? And it was just a ticket, a mom with five children in the minivan. Keep rolling it, Liz, because at one point, the little boy -- I`m just thinking of my son, John David -- the little boy or little girl gets out, and the run around to try to protect Mommy, and the cops are beating in the window and they end up shooting.
What the hay happened, Andy?
ANY STINY, "THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL NORTH" (via telephone): Well, everyone here is trying to figure out how that stop got so chaotic and escalated into the violence and the shots that were fired. And extremely controversial here on both sides.
GRACE: Well, you know, I`m all for the cops. I`m in favor of the cops protecting themselves when they think somebody is armed. But I mean, they look in. They`ve been to the front. They see there are little children in there.
Unleash the lawyers, Paul Batista and Shireen Hormozdi. All right, Shireen Hormozdi, what`s your defense of the police?
HORMOZDI: Something provoked these officers. I want to know, was this mother armed? Were these children in danger?
GRACE: Wa-wa-wait. Stop. The mother`s not armed. I can answer that for you. And you see -- roll the video, please, Liz. You see what it is, Shireen. They tell her to stop. She`s speeding. She gets in the car and slowly drives away. That is what provoked them. And yes, she should not have done that.
But look at this. Why do they take her out and say, All right, put your hands against the car? That means you`re getting frisked and arrested. And instead of doing that, she runs. She runs and she -- there she goes. There she -- and he`s shooting! He`s shooting at the minivan full of children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911 Taos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) A police officer just shot at us!
911 OPERATOR: Where are you at? Where are you at?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Where are you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now the police are beating in the windows, and another police officer is actually shooting at the minivan. Now, here he`s saying, you know, You`re speeding, and then he acts like he`s going to arrest her for speeding, and then all hell breaks loose. The children get out of the car. They`re trying to protect their mom. And the cops are actually firing and pulling their guns on the children. I don`t know what happened.
Long story short, Andy Stiny, is this mom in jail?
STINY: No, she`s out on $10,000 bond right now.
GRACE: What is she charged with, resisting arrest? Oh, dear Lord in heaven!
STINY: She`s charged with aggravated...
GRACE: OK...
(CROSSTALK)
STINY: ... child abuse and possession of drug paraphernalia.
GRACE: Child abuse? When I see the child jumping out of the car, trying to protect Mommy from the police -- you know, I always defend the cops, Caryn Stark, but this time, I mean, it`s a speeding ticket, for Pete`s sake, Caryn. And they`re shooting into a car full of screaming children?
STARK: Totally unacceptable, Nancy. I don`t know what they were thinking about, and there is nothing here that makes any sense at all. I don`t care even if she provoked them, you do not shoot at a car when there are children inside of the car. You don`t even try to bash it in.
GRACE: I mean, you know, I don`t get it. And here on the set, Shireen Hormozdi actually fixed her mouth to say maybe they thought she was kidnapping the children when she said she was going to the Rio Grande. But you know what? It`s not going to work.
And tonight, I`m said to say that I`m having to side against the cops on this, and I don`t think Mommy should be in jail or even have charges against her, other than a speeding ticket. That`s what I think. That was her mistake, when she first started driving away from the police, and I don`t believe that warrants shooting into a minivan full of children. I just -- I don`t know what happened here, but Mommy should not be facing felony charges.
Everybody, when we come back -- after her children beg her not to do it, a mom of five screws up the courage and goes for the so-called Brazilian butt lift. It all goes wrong. Tonight, Mommy`s dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Florida mother of five travels to Miami to have a Brazilian butt lift. It should be routine surgery, but for 51-year-old Marabel Cardona, something went horribly wrong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live in Naples. After her children beg her not to do it, a mom of five screws up the courage and goes for the so-called Brazilian butt lift. But it all goes wrong, and tonight mommy is dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 51-year-old Florida mother of five has second thoughts about her upcoming Brazilian butt lift, worried that the risk of surgery might be too great. But the clinic where the operation is to be performed refuses to refund her $4,000 down payment, so rather than lose the money, she goes ahead with the procedure. Within hours of undergoing the procedure, the woman is dead of a pulmonary embolism.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my butt, those rumors, I just don`t think I`ll ever outlive them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the record, I can`t believe I`m asking you this question, but no butt implants?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No butt implants, no butt injections, no anything to my butt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Kim Kardashian shooting the Brazilian butt lift to fame after she goes so far as to have an X-ray to disprove those theories. But then Brazilian butt lift is in everybody`s mind. John DePetro joining me, host, WPRO. In this case she had decided to back out of the procedure. She was going to what I believe is a board-certified dermatologist, but they wouldn`t give her her $4,000 down payment back, so even though her children, especially her oldest son, begged her not to do it, she went forward so as not to lose the $4,000. What went wrong, John?
DEPETRO: That`s what`s so tragic, Nancy. This is a 51-year-old mother of five, cashier at Walmart, but apparently they had some problems with her lungs. This is a doctor that he doesn`t advertise that he does this procedure, but they feel there was some kind of blockage, and that was caused by the fatty tissue.
GRACE: You know what, my antenna are going up when you say he doesn`t advertise he does this procedure. To Dr. Paul Nassif, MD, FACS, facial plastic and reconstructive surgeon. Doctor, what does it mean if it`s not your specialty?
DR. PAUL NASSIF, MD: First of all, since it`s not his specialty, that means he doesn`t routinely do the procedure, plus he`s not certified to do it. Dermatologists do liposuction all the time, and they also do fat grafting in maybe in the face, but injecting fat deep into the butt-- and that`s what a Brazilian butt lift is -- can be very dangerous, because the fat can enter a blood vessel, and it can go to your lungs and cause an embolism.
GRACE: Everybody, this clinic, the Vanity Cosmetic Clinic. Dr. Bill Manion, I understand that she was taken from the clinic, immediately to a hospital. She suffered an embolism. What`s that, Dr. Manion?
MANION: Well, this is a different kind of an embolism that we normally think about. Normally embili are big clots that come out of the legs. These are millions of little fat cells that are going through the circulation, going to the lungs and then blocking all the little capillaries. So this is death by a thousand emboli, and the emboli are all individual fat cells.
GRACE: After Kim Kardashian comes out publicly talking about a butt lift, we all learned a lot more about butt lifts than we ever wanted to know. What exactly is it, Dr. Nassif? It`s my understanding you take out with a needle fat from another part of your body such as your abdomen, and inject it into your behind?
NASSIF: That`s the simple version of it, Nancy. You`re harvesting the fat through liposuction, and then you are injecting with a large or a medium sized blunt canula, the fat.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What`s a canula? Is that the thing you suck out fat with during a lipo?
NASSIF: It`s pretty much the same thing you can suck out, but it`s shaped a little different, and it`s not a sharp tip. You pierce the buttock tissue, and you go deep into the buttock, and insert the fat.
GRACE: So in this case, Dr. Manion, what happened when they injected the fat? It went into an artery?
MANION: No, it would have gone to the vein and be carried right up to the heart and the lungs. Like I say, there would be millions of fat cells going out there and clogging up the capillaries. So this is not one big clot, this is millions of tiny clots.
GRACE: Kelly in North Carolina. Hi, kelly, what`s your question?
CALLER: My question is, why on earth was he not a certified surgeon, just a dermatologist? And why were they not allowed to rebate her money? I understand her not wanting it back, but now there`s a mother that`s dead and her kids are left behind. That`s not okay.
GRACE: Michael Christian, was he board certified? Was he a dermatologist, a plastic surgeon, OK, what is he?
CHRISTIAN: He is a dermatologist who sidelines in plastic surgery. And what`s important to know, Nancy, is the state of Florida does not require anyone to be certified in plastic surgery to do it. As long as you are a qualified surgeon, according to the state of Florida --
GRACE: There he is. That`s him right there, Dr. Anthony Hasan. He`s a dermatologist who claims to be a specialist in breast augmentation, lipo and tummy tucks, not certified by the American Board of Plastic Surgery. As you`re saying, Michael Christian, that`s not required in Florida.
Caryn Stark, psychologist. With famous people like Kim Kardashian obviously having a boatload of cosmetic surgery, it seems to be more and more accepted.
STARK: It`s not just accepted, Nancy, it`s part of our culture at this point. There`s so much pressure on women to look good, and these are the role models, people like Kim Kardashian, like Miley Cyrus with her twerking. And so all of a sudden now, butts are in. It`s all about booties. It`s a terrible thing.
GRACE: Michael Christian, has the doctor been charged yet?
CHRISTIAN: No, there is no criminal charges, and as far as we know, there is no civil lawsuit in this case yet.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Paul Batista, Shireen Hormozdi. It`s just as if he took a gun and shot her. Why aren`t there charges? This is not his speciality. It`s like asking me to perform heart surgery.
BATISTA: That`s totally wrong. It`s a procedure that failed. He`s a doctor, he was engaged in surgery. He had no intent to kill that woman. And intent is crucial to any criminal charge. It`s ridiculous to talk about it.
GRACE: Actually, Shireen Hormozdi, the intent required under the law is to do the act. The act would be getting the canula and performing the procedure. You don`t have to have a malevolent intent, you have to have intent to do the deed. I`m sure he didn`t mean for this woman to die with an embolism. There`s two very different intents required under the law.
HORMOZDI: I agree, though, that the doctor was legally permitted to do this surgery, and the problem is with the board of medicine, not the fact that he did this surgery.
GRACE: Dr. Nassif, what do you make of doctors performing things outside the scope of their ability?
NASSIF: Nancy, I don`t agree with it. For me, for example, I`m a facial plastic surgeon. I don`t do tummy tucks and breast augmentation. However, dermatologists do a lot of liposuction, and they do do grafting of fat into the face. However, if they don`t know the anatomy, especially the possible risk of injecting into a blood vessel, it`s dangerous. I would not do it.
GRACE: All I know is a mom of five who wanted to back out of a Brazilian butt lift is now dead, and apparently nobody is doing anything about it.
When we come back, cops say even with millions, they steal nearly a quarter million dollars of welfare, food stamps, even prenatal vitamins. In the last hours, the wealthy aristocrats who claim they are Scottish royalty and are spotted in the Bahamas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrea and Colin Chisholm seemingly had it all. High priced homes and a $1.2 million luxury yacht. But on paper, the couple claims they`re broke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now the seemingly normal family faces a felony.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A million-dollar home, a $1.2 million yacht, another luxury lake home, $3 million in the bank. Police say even with millions, they still steal nearly a quarter million dollars of welfare, food stamps, even free prenatal vitamins from the government. In the last hours, these wealthy aristocrats who claim they are Scottish royalty busted in the Bahamas. Hey, you danced to the music, now it`s time to pay the fiddler.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They seemingly had it all. On paper the couple claimed they were broke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These rich folks ripped off the system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At one point the couple cashed in on welfare claims in Florida at the same time they were collecting benefits in Minnesota.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fraud out of the state of Minnesota, no bond hold, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That astonishes me. I had no idea this could ever really happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me right now in addition to Dave Mack is Rich Stanek, the sheriff in Minneapolis. Sheriff, thank you for being with us -- I wish you could see what I`m seeing. That`s bigger than my living room, and I think I`m looking at their yacht, Sheriff. Wait a minute, Sheriff, I got to drink this in because I`ll probably never see anything else like this in my life. We`re seeing a tour of the inside of their yacht, a $1.2 million yacht, and look, I`m not fighting the French revolution or down with the rich people, but it is down with the rich people who steal. So Sheriff, how did you find out these two were living it up in the Bahamas?
RICH STANEK, SHERIFF, HENNEPIN COUNTY: You know, we had a tip from someone who said, hey, look, we know you`re looking for these folks. They were indicted back here in Hennepin County, and so working off that tip, we contacted authorities down in the Caribbean and Florida and began the search.
GRACE: You know what, Sheriff Stanek, when I go to the grocery store and try to write a check, they insist on seeing three forms of I.D. I practically get a full body search. But these people were stealing from the government, even prenatal vitamins meant for underprivileged moms to help them and their unborn children. Welfare, food stamps. How can you have a $1.2 million yacht and get food stamps, Sheriff?
STANEK: I think what you`re seeing is what the average taxpayer would say shocks the conscience in terms of what these folks were able to do over the last five or six years in Minnesota and the state of Florida.
GRACE: Sheriff, what do you make of the claim that they`re actually Scottish royalty?
STANEK: I think it`s probably the same thing as them saying they need welfare and food stamp aid. A bunch of hooey.
GRACE: Is it true they insisted on being called Lady Andrea and Lord Colin?
STANEK: Some folks may have called them that. We call them something different here in the Minnesota law enforcement community.
GRACE: I bet you do. Are they still behind bars or have they made bond?
STANEK: No, they are waiting down in Florida extradition. They may or may not appeal coming back to Minnesota to stand charges here, but either way, they`ll be back here eventually.
GRACE: Sheriff, you`re so right about that, and I`m sure you`ll give them all the amenities you can in the county jail. With me special guest, Sheriff Rick Stanek, who managed to somehow track these two down living it up in the Bahamas. OK, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, what happened with Lady Andrea and Lord Colin? Stealing food stamps. Shame, shame, shame.
MACK: Yes, Nancy, it is, and my hope and prayer is they`ll get the maximum, which is a $120,000 fine and 20 years in jail. But Nancy, this opens up a much bigger drawer of problems, because after the 2009 stimulus package was passed, the verification of Social Security numbers and things to get food stamps was eliminated. So all of the rules that would apply to catch people doing this have all been eliminated, and more and more people are bucking the system every day. Millions and millions of people, rich people, poor people. They`re all doing it, Nancy. I hope this opens up people`s eyes.
GRACE: If everybody else stepped off a cliff, would you do it, too, Dave Mack? That`s what my mother always said. Back to Sheriff Rich Stanek. I`m looking inside their yacht and I`m just wondering, isn`t it true, Sheriff, that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer because the rich can figure out ways to job the system and get more money? How were they doing it, Sheriff? How were they for instance getting free prenatal vitamins? That really takes the cake.
STANEK: I think you`re right, but again, this is a great lesson for your listeners out there that you can`t cheat the system. Eventually, eventually, it will catch up with you. In this case, it did, and the penalty is going to be substantial and significant.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Paul Batista, Shireen Hormozdi. Also with us, psychologist Caryn Stark. Paul Batista, what`s your defense of these two?
BATISTA: When it comes to the law in these kinds of cases, the state will have to demonstrate precisely what it is they said. If there were no questions that were asked that required certain answers, then they are not guilty.
GRACE: You know what? That just made my head hurt. Okay, Shireen, what`s your defense?
HORMOZDI: What he`s saying is the system allowed this behavior to happen and allowed it to happen--
GRACE: I get it. You`re blaming the system. I can tell you two this, if they can show the jury that Lady Andrea stole one prenatal vitamin from the government, vitamins that were meant for poor and underprivileged moms, honey, they`re going to jail.
When we come back, we uncover more clues in the search for eight-year- old Relisha Rudd.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We still have search teams here on two shifts, day and evening shift, about 200 people in total a day.
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GRACE: Tonight 8-year-old Relisha Rudd missing. Police insist she`s in grave danger. At this hour, the search goes on for the 8-year-old little girl. We discovered her kidnapper, Carl Tatum, has an extensive criminal history, the two of them last seen on grainy surveillance video as he leads the 8-year-old into a Holiday Inn Express motel room. Then shocking discovery, a body found, but it`s not Relisha. Tonight, we uncover more clues in the search for 8-year-old Relisha.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More of the same as police announced fire recruits searched the massive grounds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tatum reportedly purchased contractor`s strength trash bags.
A day later Tatum bought huge trash bags and spent hours in this park where the search is under way.
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GRACE: With me Dan O`Donnell and Hamil Harris. Dan O`Donnell, what`s the latest in the search for Relisha?
O`DONNELL: We do know that since Carl Tatum`s body was discovered on Monday afternoon, the police have broadened their search to abandoned homes in the area, still not saying whether they believe Relisha is alive or dead, but they`re still holding out hope that she is still alive.
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GRACE: Tonight, search still on for 8-year-old Relisha. Very quickly to Ashley Young, this is Relisha`s aunt. Ashley, what are police telling the family about the search for Relisha?
ASHLEY YOUNG, AUNT: Well, I spoke to FBI yesterday, and earlier today, and from our understanding, they strongly believe that she`s still alive.
GRACE: Why do they believe that, Ashley? That`s our prayer.
YOUNG: Well, they didn`t really tell you why they believe that. They`re just saying that they had to come and get some items from me that was left here of Relisha, that had stronger smell of her, such as her shoes and stuff, to try to find her.
GRACE: So maybe they`re using that for a canine search. Justin Freiman, what more do we know? What developments do we have?
FREIMAN: We know they`re continuing to search the park as well as abandoned homes near that park.
GRACE: Everyone, tip line, 202-727-9099. There is a $70,000 reward in the search for Relisha. Repeat, 202-727-9099.
We remember American hero, Army Specialist Michael Dahl Jr. Just 23. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved music. Parents Mike and Patricia, brother Angel. Michael Dahl Jr. American hero.
Everyone, it`s child abuse prevention month. And today marks child health national day of hope, raising awareness to help children. For information, go to childhelp.org. Child help`s national abuse hot line 1- 800-4-a-child.
Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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