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Nancy Grace
Teen Mom Kills Newborn in Plastic Bag; Local Politician Caught in Child Porn Sting
Aired May 01, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Illinois suburbs. A construction worker gets the shock of a lifetime when he spots an ordinary- looking Walmart bag, inside, finds the body of a tiny baby. Tonight, police hone in on Mom, telling us they believe Mommy cuts the umbilical cord herself, puts the baby in the bag, leaves the baby in an alley to die, then Mommy goes back to sleep!
Possibly the most shocking detail, Mommy`s motive for murder. She kills her baby boy and hides the body because the baby looks just like her ex and she doesn`t want her new boyfriend to dump her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say an Illinois teen killed her newborn baby boy, leaving him to die outside in the cold, covered in a plastic Walmart bag because he looked like her ex-boyfriend and she was allegedly afraid of her new boyfriend leaving her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, suburban Elgin (ph). A long-time politician, married, father of one, stuns constituents and neighbors when they find out he`s the target of a federal sting, a sting for child pornography, porn allegedly depicting adults having full-blown sex with pre-teen children, even infants. And that`s who got elected? Why isn`t he behind bars?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he abruptly resigned his house seat, Keith Farnham cited health reasons. He did not then acknowledge what brought him to federal court, a charge of possessing child pornography.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Federal agents raided his home and district office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two videos were found on his state of Illinois office computer. "12 is about as old as I can handle."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live to San Fernando, California. Monica Olson`s drop dead gorgeous. There`s even a crime-fighting comic book character modeled on her. She lives in a palatial ranch home near LA with her husband and two daughters. But now her magic life takes a deadly turn, her husband accused of hiring a hit man to kill her, allegedly saying, She`s got to go.
He`s the millionaire founder of a California vitamin company, reportedly secretly taped hiring a hit man for 80 grand, saying, There`s no way for them to track it back to me, and, You`re going to get paid, don`t worry about that, I got you covered. But he claims he`s set up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a shocking tale of love and romance gone wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want her dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One hundred percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Dino Guglielmelli...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say this multi-millionaire vitamin tycoon plotted to murder his beautiful ex-catwalk model wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll be happy when it`s all over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from ABC`s "GMA."
And tonight, yet another reality star in legal trouble. This reality star, who claims to, quote, "know what`s best," giving advice at every turn to friends, family and viewers, now gets a taste of his own medicine with a bankruptcy bummer, he and his family set to be thrown out of their nine- bedroom mansion. It`s reality all right, harsh reality!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want us to live a certain way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob Chrisley (ph) stars on USA Network`s "Chrisley Knows Best," but if you look at his finances, you might wonder if the outspoken businessman does know best.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve always wanted to be surrounded by beautiful things -- homes, clothing, cars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But as he`s doing some big-time spending, he`s claiming to be almost $50 million in debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, supernatural swindlers, psychics conning believers out of millions. Tonight, we blow the lid off!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you`ve ever visited a psychic and wondered, How on earth did they know that, a new book from Mark Edward (ph) claims that they didn`t. A former psychic himself, Edward claims that psychics are nothing but a hoax, with mediums basing their so-called psychic knowledge on clues like body language, but many times on nothing at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To Illinois suburbs, a construction worker gets the shock of a lifetime when he spots an ordinary-looking Walmart bag, but inside finds the body of a tiny baby. Police hone in on Mom, and police sources tell us they believe Mommy cuts the umbilical cord herself, puts the baby in the bag and puts the baby in an alley to die. And catch this, according to police sources, they tell us Mommy then goes straight back to sleep!
Possibly the most shocking detail tonight, Mommy`s motive for murder, allegedly killing her baby boy, an infant, umbilical cord still attached, because the baby looks like her ex, and she doesn`t want her new boyfriend to dump her.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Mitch Smith with "The Chicago Tribune." Mitch, I`m -- I`m stunned. Is it true? Are police sources telling you the same thing, that Mommy murders her baby, her healthy baby boy, because he looks like her ex?
MITCH SMITH, "CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Prosecutors said that in court. They said that they -- she had the child. It was a full-term boy, and then she put it in the alley with an umbilical cord and placenta in a Walmart bag and later told police that she had done so -- this is according to prosecutors -- because the child did look like her ex-boyfriend.
GRACE: OK, I`m stunned. Unleash the lawyers, Trent Copeland and Jason Oshins joining us, Copeland out of LA, Jason Oshins out of New York. Jason Oshins, let`s start with you. First of all, this is in a Walmart shopping bag, which is made of plastic.
Now, right now, these are just charges. The mom has not gone to trial. We haven`t had a preliminary hearing, nothing. So far, none of her statements have been admitted into evidence. But this is what we`ve got. We`ve got a Walmart shopping bag that`s made of plastic. And you know what that means. That means fingerprints.
Now, the other thing we`ve got is this, Oshins. The baby still had the umbilical cord attached. Now, who else is going to be responsible for that other than the mom?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think one of the key components will be pathology. Was this a stillborn? You know, that`ll certainly make a difference relative to the type of charge...
GRACE: Why?
OSHINS: Well, because, you know, one would be life, right, and one it`s stillborn. So states differentiate on statute...
GRACE: Well, I know that, but if the baby was stillborn, why would she put it in a Walmart bag and leave it in the alley for a construction worker to find?
OSHINS: It would not be the first time that a young mother panicked in a situation like that. I`m not presupposing facts, I`m just telling you why something like that would be different...
GRACE: OK.
OSHINS: ... why someone would act that way.
GRACE: All right, Copeland, weigh in.
TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, look, we`ve had this before, and it`s been tragic, Nancy. We`ve talked about these kinds of cases before. You know as well I do, the first order to business is going to be...
GRACE: Please get to the point, if you don`t mind.
COPELAND: ... that she`s going to -- she`s going to argue...
GRACE: I don`t need a preamble. This is not the Constitution.
COPELAND: She`s going to -- look, she`s going to argue that the baby was born stillborn, the baby wasn`t alive, this wasn`t a murder case. She panicked. The baby never took a breath of life.
GRACE: OK.
COPELAND: The baby was born stillborn. She put the baby in a bag.
GRACE: So you`re both saying the same thing...
COPELAND: That`s going to be the first...
GRACE: ... because just FYI, Trent, that`s what Jason Oshins just said.
OK, out to you, Mitch Smith, "Chicago Tribune." It`s my understanding that the baby was alive and was not stillborn. What do you know, Mitch?
SMITH: According to prosecutors, the medical examiner here in Chicago found that the baby was born alive and then died of possible exposure and asphyxia.
GRACE: Let`s see the scene, Liz. Also joining me on this, Mike Duffy, on the story. I know none of these statements have come in, Mike Duffy, but what do we know of the statements the mother said?
MIKE DUFFY, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, we know that when the mom arrived at school the next day, she was telling her friends that the baby was in the hospital. She was even showing pictures of the baby on an iPad, which we later find out were just images pulled from the Internet. She was also telling people that it just so...
GRACE: Wa-wait. What did you say about the Internet? I`m sorry?
DUFFY: She was showing pictures of her baby to friends and faculty and saying, Hey, look, this is my baby. And it just happened to be...
GRACE: Hold on, Mike. Mike, hold on. Hold that thought. This is where the body was found. Take a look at this. This was not -- the body was not laid there by accident. Let`s hold on this shot for just one moment. The plastic Walmart bag was found in an alley between these two buildings. A construction worker happened upon it. Can you imagine his shock when he finds a regular Walmart bag has a tiny infant in it, a dead infant, umbilical cord still attached.
Now, Mitch Smith from "The Chicago Tribune" has just told us the medical examiner states the baby was born alive. Now, to -- hold on, Duffy. To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. How do we know that? How can you look at the baby, Dr. Dupre, and tell me it was born alive?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, Nancy, that`s a good question. We look at it -- we look to see if it`s -- how the baby looks. Does it look like it`s been, you know, born dead or stillborn. But we also take microscopic slides and look at the actual lung tissue itself. There are also some other tests we can do. We can take the lungs, inflate them in water. If they float, then they inhale air.
GRACE: OK, let`s talk about that. Let`s talk about that. Any trial lawyer worth his salt knows about this, having tried infant homicides. According to Dr. Michelle Dupre, this is what happens. You put the lungs - - of course, you know the body is dissected upon autopsy. That`s why many people don`t want their loved ones to have an autopsy. The lungs are placed in water. If they float, that means they have -- the child has breathed in air.
So Dr. Dupre, other than putting the lungs in water, is there another test that I don`t know about to look at the lungs and determine if the child has breathed?
DUPRE: Well, Nancy, we do take a microscopic slide of the lungs and look at the tissue under a microscope. When the alveoli of the lungs are all expanded equally, then again, that indicates that a breath was taken and that the baby was born alive. If the alveoli are collapsed, it indicates that they were probably not.
GRACE: Everyone, I want to see that shot again. Mitch Smith, "Chicago Tribune," it`s my understanding that the Walmart bag was found between these two buildings. Is that correct, found in a residential area?
SMITH: It was in a residential area, the gangway between two houses on the northwest side of Chicago.
GRACE: And Mitch, does she live in either of those homes?
SMITH: Police said that she did live in one of the houses, that it was -- that she put the baby between her house and another.
GRACE: Oh, man. That certainly left a track a mile wide. OK, Mike Duffy, back to you. These statements have not been admitted yet, but what are police sources telling us about the statements made by the mother?
DUFFY: Well, police are telling us that the mom incriminated herself in many ways by saying that -- she was talking about the story where a baby was found near her house, and she kept asking if DNA could link her back to the scene.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Dujay (ph) in New Jersey. Hi, Dujay. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, where are her parents?
GRACE: Where are her parents? That, we don`t know. Mitch Smith, do you know anything about her family?
SMITH: All I know is that the prosecutors are saying she gave birth in the bathroom of her home, placed the child outside, went back to bed. Beyond that, I can`t say anything.
GRACE: Whoa! Did you say she went back to bed? Hold on. Out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers." Dr. Bethany, she cuts the umbilical cord, she puts the baby in a bag after asphyxiating it, strangling it or smothering it, leaves it in the alley, and then she goes back to bed. She goes to sleep.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Nancy, she wasn`t even attached to or bonded with this child. This is one of the main reasons women commit infanticide, is that they deny the existence of the baby in utero. In fact, sometimes they even switch over into hatred of the baby.
And what we saw -- let`s think about the Casey Anthony case. Why did she kill her 3-year-old? It`s because she felt that the 3-year-old would be an intrusion in her love life. And take a look at this case. This young woman is already saying that she felt that her boyfriend would be angry or jealous or break up with her because the baby resembled another guy or another past lover or boyfriend.
So this is what we see with women who kill their children, is that they have a fantasy of an idealized life with another love object, and then they kill the child because the child is viewed as an interloper.
GRACE: You know, the way you said that sounds awfully nice. But what it boils down to, Bethany, is she murdered her baby. She strangled it or smothered it, so her boyfriend wouldn`t find out she once had another lover. She murdered the baby, according to police, because it looks like her ex, throws it in the alley in a bag, and she goes back to bed and goes to sleep. We`ll keep you abreast of this as the case heads to trial.
When we come back, a long-time married politician, a father of one, stuns constituents. They find out he`s the target of a federal sting for child porn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Farnham allegedly bragged about molesting children. "12 is about as old as I can handle. I love them at 6, 7, 8. Send me some more. It is hot."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Then later, supernatural swindlers, psychics con believers out of millions. Tonight, we blow the lid off!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live, suburban Elgin. A long-time politician, married, a father, stuns constituents and neighbors when they find out he`s the target of a federal sting for child porn, porn allegedly depicting adults having full-blown sex with children, even infants. And that`s who gets elected? Why isn`t this guy behind bars?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A government investigation into porn trading led cyber- crimes agents to an e-mail address later linked to Farnham.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Farnham allegedly bragged about molesting children and he talked about his preference for young sexual victims between the ages of 6 and 8.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Send me some more. It is hot."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Even stating in a chat line, Once they get about 12, they`re really just too old for me.
Pat Lalama, correspondent, Investigation Discovery -- 12 is about as old as I can handle? I`d love to see a little boy rape a little girl? Help me!
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: This -- it`s as sick as you can get here. In my hands, the federal complaint -- "Yes, I love them 6, 7, 8." And here -- here`s one. "I wish I had access to all the vids and pics ever made." If I read everything to you, you`d actually vomit right here on the set. Right now, $4,500 bond, sitting at home with a pretty little bracelet. Of course, he`s resigned from the legislature. He faces 10 years...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Even when he resigned, Pat, he said he was resigning due to health reasons. This was when he first learned about the sting.
LALAMA: Oh, yes -- in March, he -- when people asked him, he said, Oh, I`m very sick, and he is. He has lung issues and bladder issues. But he`s got bigger issues now. And even after he was released on bond today, a reporter called him and asked him about the charges. He said, I don`t know what you`re talking about.
There are heinous videos. This is one of the most -- the sickest cases I`ve come across, Nancy!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And not only that, Pat Lalama, he was looking at child porn on his government computer. On the computer that we pay for, he`s looking at child porn, videos of adults having full-blown sex with infants!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Farnham had extensive on-line trading relationships in pedophile chat rooms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instant messenger conversations have Farnham saying to an alleged kiddie porn trader, "I wish I had access to all the vids and pics ever made."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s barred from any contact with children under the age of --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A married father now shocking his constituents. He`s the subject of a federal sting on child pornography. There you see Farnham visiting the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy for Take Your Legislator to School day.
Pat Lalama joining us, Pat, correspondent, Investigation Discovery. The pictures were so sick, the police were stunned. And he was using the government computer in his office to trade porn with other pedophiles all across the country!
LALAMA: Many other pedophiles. The exchanges -- you know, Nancy, you and I see a lot of these cases, you in particular, over the years because of your status as a former prosecutor. But I was -- I literally started to cry when I read the complaint. He gets enjoyment from the pain of these children, according to the federal complaint. He`s using taxpayer dollars, essentially, to engage in this kind of behavior. He`s got a son. He`s got a wife. Who knows if she had any clue. He`s been a legislator from 2008 - - I`m only grateful that, finally, it`s come out, if, in fact, it`s true.
GRACE: Michael Christian, what more can you tell us?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): You know, Nancy, not only, according to the federal complaint, is he looking at these images, but there`s some exchanges of messages with this Homeland Security agent who`s entrapping him. And he says in there that he`s had sex -- the youngest woman he`s ever -- girl he`s ever had sexual activity with was 6 - - 6!
GRACE: You know what, Michael? Another thing about this is regardless of what he`s said in the chat room, which he`ll, of course, say was just some sick fantasy, when they trade pictures of child pornography -- and I have spoken with many of the children that have been in these photos -- the child is victimized every time that that picture is traded. It`s like baseball cards to pedophiles, that millions of these pictures are traded every day.
And I`ve spoken to these children, and they feel as they grow up that they can`t even step out. They don`t know who`s been looking at them, with some adult having sex with them when they were 2 years old. And it stays with them forever.
Everyone, that is politician Keith Farnham. We tried to reach him. Of course, no response.
When we get back, live to California. Monica Olsen, drop dead gorgeous -- there`s even a crime-fighting comic book character modeled on her -- but now her life takes a deadly turn, her husband accused of hiring a hit man to kill her, allegedly saying, She`s got to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want her dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One hundred percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Then later, supernatural swindlers, psychics con believers out of millions of dollars. Tonight, we blow the lid off.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to San Fernando, California. Monica Olsen is drop dead gorgeous. There`s even a crime-fighting comic book character modeled on her. She lives in a palatial ranch home near LA with husband, two daughters. But now her life takes a deadly turn. Her husband is accused of hiring a hit man to murder her, allegedly saying, She`s got to go. He`s the millionaire founder of a California vitamin company, reportedly secretly taped hiring a hit man for 80 grand. And you can hear him on tape saying, There`s no way for them to track it back to me, and, You`re going to get paid, don`t worry about it. I got you covered. But he claims he`s set up.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: And you can hear him all in tape saying, there`s no way for them to track it back to me. And you`re going to get paid, don`t worry about it. I got you covered. But he claims he`s setup.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FUHRMANN: You`re never going to hear from her again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a manipulator. Somebody who is trying to help himself.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Perhaps it was fueled by jealousy, perhaps it was a custody dispute.
FUHRMANN: By the time we`re out of lunch, it`s already done. You need to figure out how to pay me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no stronger evidence in a case than an audiotape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from ABC`s "GMA." Take a listen. Guglielmelli caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FUHRMANN: I asked you a simple question, you`re positive?
GUGLIELMELLI: That what?
FUHRMANN: You want her dead?
GUGLIELMELLI: Oh, I`m --
FUHRMANN: One hundred percent?
GUGLIELMELLI: Why wouldn`t I?
FUHRMANN: You`re never going to hear from her again. By the time we`re out to lunch, it`s already done. You just need to figure out how to pay me.
GUGLIELMELLI: Oh, I`ll pay you.
FUHRMANN: How much?
GUGLIELMELLI: You already told me how much.
FUHRMANN: Eighty thousand?
GUGLIELMELLI: That`s what you told me. I`ll be happy when it`s all over.
FUHRMANN: It is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from ABC`s "GMA." All right, joining me tonight exclusively, the defense attorney for Guglielmelli. He is the vitamin king. Anthony Brooklier. Also with me is deputy D.A. Emily Cole. She`s prosecuting Guglielmelli.
To both of you, thank you for being with us.
Brooklier, first to you. That audio sounds damning to me. How are you going to fight that?
ANTHONY BROOKLIER, ATTORNEY FOR HUSBAND WHO ALLEGEDLY TRIED TO HAVE WIFE KILLED: Nancy, you have to put the audio in context. This fellow, that was the agent provocateur in this case, my client didn`t believe it all. By the time this tape was made, he knew that he had been -- that he had been lying to my client about a $280 million contract from the Department of Defense that he had actually fabricated, that his firm and the fellow who was talking to him --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re already -- you`re losing me. You`re already losing me. I hope you`re not going to give that to the jury. Break it down. How are you going to fight this video?
You know what? I want to hear the video again, Liz, just roll it one more time, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FUHRMANN: I asked you a simple question, you`re positive?
GUGLIELMELLI: That what?
FUHRMANN: You want her dead?
GUGLIELMELLI: Oh, I`m --
FUHRMANN: One hundred percent?
GUGLIELMELLI: Why wouldn`t I?
FUHRMANN: You`re never going to hear from her again. By the time we`re out to lunch, it`s already done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from ABC`s "GMA."
All right. You`re a well known lawyer, Anthony Brooklier, joining me out of L.A. Again, dummy it down for me, all right? How are you going to be - -
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKLIER: Nancy, Nancy --
GRACE: -- him say, yes, 100 percent sure, I want her dead.
BROOKLIER: My client is not (INAUDIBLE) knew that this man was a total fraud. Nothing he said meant anything. My client was playing along with him, trying to see what he would say.
GRACE: OK, all right. I hear you.
BROOKLIER: He didn`t mean -- my client meant nothing that he said, he knew that Fuhrmann was a complete and utter fraud, an empty suit devoid of credibility.
GRACE: OK. Now with me, Deputy D.A. Emily Cole from the L.A. County D.A.`s office, prosecuting Guglielmelli.
Deputy D.A. Emily Cole, thank you for being with us.
EMILY COLE, LOS ANGELES COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY`S OFFICE: You`re welcome, Nancy.
GRACE: What do you make of that argument that he was -- this is all fake, he was just playing along.
You know what, Emily, if someone talked to me about murdering my husband, I`d kill them right there, on the spot, or call 911 with them watching me. Why would he play along with someone joking about killing your wife?
COLE: Absolutely. You don`t play around with words like that, and you certainly don`t agree to pay $80,000 to someone to kill their wife. When they tell them that when they walk out of that room it`s going to be done. And that`s exactly what is said in that conversation, when I walk out of this room, it`s done, you cannot change it. She`s going to be dead. And he agreed to that, by the end of it, he said, I`ll be happy when it`s all over. You played that part.
GRACE: Emily, how did he know Fuhrmann? Didn`t they have previous dealings together?
COLE: They did. In fact Mr. Fuhrmann and Mr. Guglielmelli were business associates. And over a year`s time, Mr. Guglielmelli was constantly asking Mr. Fuhrmann, when are you going to kill her, when are you going to get this done? And it got to the point where Mr. Fuhrman felt like Guglielmelli was going to go to somebody else if he didn`t have something done right away.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this.
COLE: So he was just (INAUDIBLE) actually going to get killed. And that when he reported it to police.
GRACE: With me, Emily Cole and Anthony Brooklier.
Joe Gomez, KRLD, isn`t it true that the two were locked in a bitter custody dispute?
JOE GOMEZ, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KRLD RADIO: It was a vicious custody dispute. In fact, Nancy, it`s hard to believe that this man would want to kill the mother of his children, the mother of his children for $80,000.
Now not only do we understand he was upset over the kids, but he was also upset that his wife started to get a fantastic career of her own. She launched a beauty skin supply line of her own, so he was also upset over that, over the kids and maybe jealousy was also involved, Nancy, that he had this beautiful wife who used to be a model. I mean, it could be anything. And right now, she`s still afraid for her life.
GRACE: Hold on, back to you -- back to the defense attorney for Dino Guglielmelli, Anthony Brooklier joining us. You know, you can conspire all you want to but very typically in many jurisdictions, you`ve got to have an overt act. You can`t just talk about it, talk about it, talk about it. You`ve got to show the jury some overt act. Either taking the money out of the ATM, handing over the money. Drawing a map would work, writing out a time line, some overt act to prove you meant to make good on the conspiracy.
Anthony, is there an over act in this case?
BROOKLIER: That`s a good point, Nancy. That`s a very, very good point. To get -- to have an attempted murder, you have to have an act in furtherance. Something more than just talk. Here, Guglielmelli paid him nothing. He didn`t pay him anything at all. There was talk about it.
GRACE: All right.
BROOKLIER: Because Guglielmelli knew that Fuhrmann was an empty suit. Guglielmelli knew that Fuhrmann was a fraud and wasn`t going to do anything.
GRACE: OK. Deputy D.A. Emily Cole with us. You know, I hear Brooklier making his argument, and he`s kind of saying the same thing over and over again, that this is all just a farce. Do you have an overt act, Emily?
COLE: The overt act is the conversation that was reported, Nancy. The overt act is when Fuhrmann says on a constant basis during the conversation that when I leave this room, she`s dead, you cannot change this act. She will be dead once -- if you say yes. And he continues to arrange with Mr. Fuhrmann how he`s going to pay him the money.
GRACE: Wow.
COLE: That is the overt act.
GRACE: Wow. Arranging for paying the money.
OK, guys, we will keep you posted. Even millionaires can get caught. The vitamin king hiring a hit man, according to police, to murder his wife.
When we get back, tonight yet another reality star in legal trouble. This star has claimed to, quote, "know what`s best." Him and his family said to be thrown out of their nine-bedroom mansion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The show is called "Chrisley Knows Best" but one has to wonder if he really does. Todd Chrisley is almost $50 million in debt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And then later, super natural swindlers, psychics con believers out of millions. Tonight we blow the lid off.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Another reality star in legal trouble. This time the star claims to, quote, "know what`s best." Giving advice at every turn, to friends, family, viewers, well now he gets a taste of his own medicine with the bankruptcy bummer. He and his family said to be thrown out of their nine- bedroom mansion. It`s reality all right. Harsh reality.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Todd Chrisley stars on USA Network`s "Chrisley Knows Best."
TODD CHRISLEY, REALITY SHOW STAR: And I believe that our future is in our hands.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is almost $50 million in debt.
CHRISLEY: This is my wife`s closet.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s even bragged that the family spends about $300,000, sometimes more, on clothing.
CHRISLEY: This is my closet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. It`s "Chrisley Knows Best." And his numbers skyrocket.
Let`s see a clip of "Chrisley Knows Best." For those of you who haven`t seen this reality show, it`s incredible, take a look.
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CHRISLEY: Come on in. This is the home that my wife and I chose to bring up our children in. Although it`s much larger than what my wife and I ever anticipated owning, it was very important to me for the house to not feel so grand.
This is our foyer. It`s the first turn that you see when you walk into the home so it was important to us that it`d be inviting but at the same token still have a certain amount of formality to it.
This is our library. We have a piano that no one in my home has enough energy to come and sit down and take lessons that I would pay for.
This is our formal dining room. It was very important for us to have a dining room that felt comfortable to our family. Makes me feel good when I come down this hallway each day. When I walk back it kind of soothes me before I decide to go and hang myself with a necktie by the time I get to my closet.
This is our formal living room. My wife worked on consistently. She wanted a room that truly was formal, but at the same time was not to the point that our kids do not felt like they couldn`t come in here and sit down and have a conversation.
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GRACE: That is from "Chrisley Knows Best" from USA Network.
And, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com, I understand that -- I thought that was actually a store. It`s his home. I thought I was looking at Nordstrom`s or Macy`s or something in the furniture area. You know, where they put decor. That`s his home.
Alexis, Radaronline.com, the whole premise of the reality show is that he is the lord of the manor. Has this fantastic mansion, all this money, this big family, the wife is always dressed up like a beauty queen, and they`re always in full dinner dress sitting at the table, I guess, every night.
How did this happen he`s gone bankrupt and the title of the show is he knows best?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, SENIOR REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: Exactly, I think he was hiding that he really doesn`t know best. This house that you`re looking at, this is a 30,000 square foot house. It is gigantic. And the thing is he is close $30 -- nope, he is $49 million in debt. He`s filed for bankruptcy.
GRACE: Whoa. Look at that American Express balance. Wow. Wait. Wait a minute. $6,000 of Louis Vuitton.
TERESZCUK: And you`re supposed to pay that off every month.
GRACE: $15,000 at Saks Fifth Avenue. $4,000 of luggage. A $70,000 Range Rover? A $300,000 plus wardrobe?
What`s upsetting me right now -- out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author. There he is where they`re all dressed up in formal dinner wear to have their tacos at dinner.
Dr. Bethany Marshall, my concern is this, when people watch that show, they think that that`s the way to live, that everybody else but them is living that way. It`s not reality, it`s a lie and this guy`s going bankrupt. He`s like -- I forget how many millions of dollars in debt.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, you`re right, Nancy, it inspires so much envy on the part of the -- of the public. Because envy is a feeling that you have something I want and I can never get it for myself. But what does Chrisley really have? He has self- aggrandizement, narcissism, he`s a grister. He`s perpetrated a lie on the public.
I mean, I would encourage any viewer of this show, when they`re watching the show, to tell themselves that this guy doesn`t have anything that you cannot get for yourself.
GRACE: Alex McCord, former "Real Housewife," host of "The Real Deal" on Stir.com, are all the reality shows -- I mean, you did it for a while. Are they all set up to make people believe this is for real? Is it all a big lie?
ALEX MCCORD, FORMER "REAL HOUSEWIFE", HOST, "THE REAL DEAL", THESTIR.COM: I tell you what, reality shows do like to snap price tags over a dress you try on. They`ll stick the price on. But I`m shocked by these guys because they filmed this show looking so rich after they filed for bankruptcy. And they may lose their home.
GRACE: There`s a "Real Housewife," Theresa Giudice. Same problem with her. Bankruptcy, problem with the feds. I mean, that is the reality.
So, Alexis, is this a done deal? And where did he lose all of his money? Is it true that his mother or grandmother is going to be thrown out on the street?
TERESZCUK: Yes, it is. And it is a done deal. Sotheby`s has put this house up for sale for $2.4 million. The only thing that this family really actually owns is a two-bedroom condo. So all of them are going to have to move in there.
GRACE: Alexis, does the wife work? Does she have a job?
TERESZCUK: No.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: How is it that all --
TERESZCUK: In fact, neither does he.
GRACE: -- the women don`t have jobs? And to you, Alex McCord, former "Real Housewife," why -- you know, every woman I know is working. How come none of these reality stars fit the reality of America where everybody`s working just trying to make their ends meet.
MCCORD: You know, I think they try to get the reality show because they don`t have a job. I think that so many reality stars particularly as the genre grows, they think that they have to have the biggest house, the nicest car. And a lot of these lives are built on fraud. So he may think he knows best. But I think he needs to go back to school.
GRACE: Well put.
Everybody, when we come back. Supernatural swindlers. Psychics con believers out of millions. Tonight we blow the lid off.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The spirits are asking me about a child. I`m getting an eating problem.
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GRACE: Supernatural, psychics who con believers out of millions of dollars. Tonight we blow the lid off.
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: If you`ve ever visited a psychic and wondered how on earth did they know that, a new book from Mark Edward claims that they didn`t. A former psychic, himself, Edward claims that psychics are nothing but a hoax. With mediums facing their so-called psychic knowledge on clues like body language, but many times on nothing at all.
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GRACE: Out to Mark Edward, the author of "Psychic Blues: Confessions of a Conflicted Medium."
Mark, medium, psychics, fortune tellers, tarot card readers, bilk the public out of millions of dollars a year. What are the most typical tricks -- how do you trick the client?
MARK EDWARD, AUTHOR OF "PSYCHIC BLUES: CONFESSIONS OF A CONFLICTED MEDIUM": Well, there`s many different methods. They`ve been around for centuries. One of the main ones is called cold reading which means you make up a lot of bold statements as if they`re facts and you wait for one to stick and then you just course correct and keep riding it out. So it`s, you know, it`s --
GRACE: Cold reading.
EDWARD: Cold reading.
GRACE: With me is Mark Edward. Author of "Psychic Blues."
Mark, another thing is now very often people pay for psychic readings and mediums through their credit card.
EDWARD: Yes.
GRACE: Once the psychic gets the credit card, they`ve got your name. They can look at your spending, they can see where you spent money. They can find out where you live. They can go on your Facebook and see your family, your friends, your postings, what you did the day before. That gives them incredible leverage.
EDWARD: Yes.
GRACE: What do you know about that, Mark Edward?
EDWARD: Well, I`ll tell you right now I have some information that there`s a whole new platform. There are some financial interests -- I can`t mention names -- who are planning on building a whole new platform based on Internet readings whereby the psychic will be looking like a Skype on their computer, talking to the sitter and on the other half of the screen will be all their information scrolling by that they`ve obtained through the credit card which is being used to pay for the reading.
GRACE: Incredible.
EDWARD: Yes.
GRACE: Bilking, bilking all of us out of millions.
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GRACE: Mediums and psychics bilking you out of millions of dollars a year. With me, Mark Edward, author of a new book "Psychic Blues: Confessions of a Conflicted Medium."
So, Mark, there are so many ways to bilk customers, consumers out of money. What about Seances?
EDWARD: Well, Seances, that`s basically a magic show in the dark. Nowadays a Seance is done in full light on stage in an arena. It`s changed quite a bit from the Victorian Seance. What can you say? It`s --
GRACE: Are they easy to manipulate?
EDWARD: Absolutely. Absolutely. There are so many tricks of the trade that have been around for decades.
GRACE: Like what? What`s a trick of the trade?
EDWARD: In a Seance room?
GRACE: Yes.
EDWARD: Well, in the Seance room, it`s pitch black. So it`s pretty easy to get away with just about anything with the lights off. It`s like the ghost hunters bumping around in the room with a flashlight. You know, turn the lights on. Turn the lights on, you`ll be able to see what`s going on. So, of course, the spirits work best in the dark is traditional. So --
GRACE: With me, also, Ginette Lucas, psychic consultant, worked on the Casey Anthony and the Holly Bobo cases.
Jeanette, thank you for being with us. What do you make of Edward`s assertion he can expose fake psychics?
GINETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC CONSULTANT, DOWSER: I say if he has the resources and the financial background to go for it, go for it. There are a lot of fakes out there.
GRACE: Are you familiar -- have you ever heard of psychics using these techniques he`s talking about? For instance, looking up your information on credit card, Google, Facebook, manipulating a Seance because the customers can`t really see what`s going on?
LUCAS: Well, it can happen. When it comes to the Seances, they typically do do them in the dark because the people want the mysticism. And, of course, the big companies that use the credit cards, a lot of these people know they`re signing off with their information. They need to be careful.
GRACE: So that`s how they obtain all the information about you. When you talk to them, they sound as if they know you.
Ginette Lucas joining me and Mark Edward, author of "Psychic Blues."
Everybody, let`s stop and remember, American hero Army Private First Class Jeremiah Monroe, 31, Brandt Lake, New York. Purple Heart. National Defense Service Medal. Army Service Ribbon. Loved being a big brother mentor, drawing motorcycles and late model cars. Mother, Deloris, brother, Robert, daughter, Delilah.
Jeremiah Monroe. American hero.
And happy 10th birthday to tiny crime fighter, London. She`s an honor student. She loves piano. Dancing with her ballet company. Her dream, to become a prima ballerina.
Everyone, Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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