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Nancy Grace
Murder Mom Trial Opens in Tampa
Aired May 05, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Tampa suburbs. Police race to a multi-million-dollar mansion, a little girl at her bedroom computer doing homework, dead, her little brother in the garage, buckled into the minivan, dead. Cops hone in on the shooter. It`s Mommy, found lounging by a luxury back yard pool in a bloody housecoat, Mommy calmly explaining she shoots her children dead in the mouth because they talked back.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, state`s witness number one. We are live here at the courthouse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty as charged of premeditated murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty by reason of insanity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She takes her gun, bam, shoots her son a second time, shoots her in the mouth, bam, the sassy mouth, as she called it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An all-American family with a sick member.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did all my duties, then and went to buy a gun. She had already formulated the intent to kill her children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, it wasn`t just sports fans who were in shock after the owner of the LA Clippers caught on tape in a sick race rant, reaming out his alleged mistress for bringing African-Americans to events and daring to take photos with them. Well, the rant goes viral as he blesses (ph) her out. After his team protests their own owner, the country sides with them.
But tonight, he`s got another problem, his wife suing his not so secret mistress for the millions her husband apparently spends on her during the affair. I guess that`ll teach him!
In the last hours, Clippers owner Donald Sterling storms out of an interview with Barbara Walters as his mistress claims, quote, "We`re just friends." He spends nearly $2 million on just a friend? As the NBA tries to ban the owner for life, we uncover disturbing divorce details.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA WALTERS, ABC NEWS: Is Donald Sterling a racist?
V. STIVIANO, STERLING GIRLFRIEND: No, I don`t believe it in my heart.
DONALD STERLING, CLIPPERS OWNER: Yes, it bothers me a lot if you want to broadcast that you`re associating with black people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you wearing the shield?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you holding a microphone?
WALTERS: Do you think he should apologize?
STIVIANO: Absolutely.
WALTERS: Do you think he will apologize?
STIVIANO: Only God knows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was from ABC`s "20/20" and TMZ Sports.
And tonight, Hollywood superstar Ben Affleck, star of "Good Will Hunting," "Argo," "Batman," busted in Vegas?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: I like to come to casinos and play blackjack and play poker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ben Affleck`s luck runs out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Affleck, who played an on-line gambling mogul in "Runner Runner"...
AFFLECK: If I had a dollar for every bad gambler who lost money on my site and turned around and claimed they got cheated, I wouldn`t be (INAUDIBLE) the site.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ben Affleck is so good at blackjack that sources the actor was banned from playing at the Hard Rock Casino in Vegas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was from ABC`s "GMA."
And then to Pleasant Grove, Utah. Spring cleaning turns deadly when remains of tiny infants found in cardboard boxes. That`s just the beginning. By the time the whole place is searched by police, bodies of seven helpless infants, all dead at the hands of Mommy. Cops say Mommy hides her seven pregnancies, gives birth only to murder each child one after the next. Now, you look at her and think she`s your nice neighbor who goes for walks and borrows a cup of sugar from you. All the while, Mommy`s murdering tiny babies one after the next.
In the last hours, Mommy busted, saying she can`t even remember how many babies she strangled dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six counts of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Megan Huntsman is now officially an accused serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were just all in shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say she confessed to detectives that she gave birth to seven babies and that she suffocated or strangled six of the children immediately after they were born.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six counts of murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live, Tampa suburbs. Police race to a million- dollar mansion, a little girl found at her bedroom computer doing homework, dead, her little brother in the garage buckled into the minivan, dead. Cops hone in on Mommy lounging by a luxury back yard pool in a bloody housecoat who calmly explains she shoots her children dead in the mouth because they talked back.
We are live at the courthouse and taking your calls. Straight out to Steve Helling, "People" magazine reporter. Steve, what a day in the courtroom! I was sitting there, watching the father, the husband, Colonel Parker Schenecker. He`s sitting up at the front, over to the far left, in a chair at the end of the pew. It`s like church pews.
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Right.
GRACE: No emotion whatsoever. It looks like he`s trying everything he can not to burst into tears. I noticed he keeps putting his hand up like that, and you can see a blue wristband with the children`s name and a heart on it.
And I was also stunned when I got a look in person at Julie Schenecker. She looks nothing like she did during the marriage. She`s not a blonde vivacious anymore.
HELLING: No.
GRACE: She`s sitting there. She rarely looks up. She`s got mousy brown hair and a school mom`s bun. And she was holding a handkerchief the whole time, Steve Helling, but the only time she used it was to wipe her chin.
HELLING: Right.
GRACE: She wasn`t wiping away tears. And another thing, a really big thing I noticed, Steve Helling. In all of that video we see of her, when she knows the camera`s on her, she`s shaking as if she`s ill. She did not shake one time! And I was in that courtroom for hours watching her.
HELLING: Yes, there was no shaking whatsoever.
GRACE: No.
HELLING: She looks 10 years older than she looked just a couple years ago. It`s amazing. And the other thing that`s interesting is that, you know, I sat down with Parker right after this whole thing happened, with Parker Schenecker. Yes, he cried himself out. I think now he`s just waiting for justice and he wants justice to be seen because...
GRACE: Well, I notice -- you know, a lot of times -- unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York.
First to you, Sanchez. A lot of times, if you`re going to be a witness in a case, you are not allowed to sit in the courtroom due to what we call the rules of sequestration. Neither side wants your testimony shaded in the least by what you`re hearing on the stand. But this father, in my mind, has a right to be here.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I think he does have a right to be there. But again, you know, your father, as distressed as he is, he has to deal with the rules of the court because if he`s hearing what goes on, that could shade his testimony as he testifies later. And that would be unfair to the defendant.
GRACE: Well, you know, a very small detail popped up today, Randy Kessler. And when they first started talking about it, I was thinking, Why are they spending so much time on the Post-It notes? Liz, let me see if you can dig me up a photo of their multi-million-dollar mansion because one of the very first witnesses this morning was somebody -- one of the dads. He didn`t really know a lot about car pooling. He was basically doing what his wife told him to. He would go pick up the Schenecker kids with his own on the way to the school.
And he got there that morning, and he knows what door that Calyx and Beau come out of every morning, and they didn`t come and they didn`t come. He kept staring at the door. Well, finally, he calls his wife and said, Look, I`m going to be late. I got to go. So he leaves.
Within about an hour later, police were there. And at that same door, there were sticky notes, Randy Kessler, sticky notes saying, Hey, guys, we`ve gone to New York. We`re on a trip to New York. We`re not going to be here for car pool. Keep on going. Basically, no big deal.
You get the significance, Randy Kessler, right?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, like she`s trying to deny that she was the one that did it. But it doesn`t matter. There`s no good answer. It leads to crazy. It leads to an insane defense because she`s trying to say that she`s in New York. She knows the kids are going to be found. They`re right there. So it makes absolutely no sense that she would come up with some sort of alibi and leave the kids` bodies right where they were.
GRACE: That`s exactly -- Roger Schulman joining me, Tampa radio reporter, also in court with me today. It`s very critical, Roger, because this shows that even after she shot her children dead in the mouth, all right -- and remember she writes an e-mail, and those e-mails came in -- for sassy mouth, and then she shoots them in the mouth area -- she`s scheming. She`s conniving. She`s trying to throw people off the track by putting these stickies on the door, Roger Schulman.
ROGER SCHULMAN, TAMPA RADIO (via telephone): Nancy, I think this was a great testimonial moment for the prosecution, when they had Mr. Shaw (ph) actually go up to that door -- he said he went up to the door, he looked in the door, and those notes -- he was absolutely definite those notes were not there between 6:35 and 6:40 in the morning. A short time later, they were. It shows, in my mind, that Julie Schenecker knew right from wrong when all this was going on, when she was trying to put up this smokescreen of these notes.
GRACE: Yes. And you know -- you know, Roger Schulman, another thing. If you read her journal and her e-mails she was sending to her husband who was stationed overseas at the time in Qatar, she was telling him -- him about how sassy the children were acting. And she even goes so far to say, Hey, it`s a good thing you weren`t here, I would have -- I might have offed you, too.
Everybody, we are live here at the courthouse. The courthouse is right behind me. We have just come out of the courtroom. And what a day in the courtroom it has been. Literally (ph), soccer mom Julie Schenecker on trial for the brutal murders of her two beautiful children.
I was sitting there, looking at her. And I got to tell you, I nearly burst into tears because you got her on that side of the courtroom, you`ve got the father, who has now sought a divorce from her on the other side. He never looked at her. She never looked at him.
And I know that this is extremely sad, Steve. When they started putting up photos of those children`s dead bodies, I noticed the prosecution very carefully would never lift the picture up so the father could see them. Did you notice that?
HELLING: I did notice that. And it makes a lot of sense. Normally, the loved ones end up exiting the courtroom for this. But Parker Schenecker said, No, I`m going to be there. I want to be there for every minute of this trial. And that`s what he`s doing, and it`s taking a lot out of him. You can tell it. When you see it in his face, he`s exhausted, but he`s doing the right thing.
GRACE: Well, you know, another thing -- another thing -- hold on. Who`s my caller, Liz? I can`t hear you. Hi, Wayne. Thanks for calling in. What`s your question? We`re here outside the courthouse. what can I tell you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Do we know if the mother was on drugs at the time of the killings?
GRACE: Oh, Wayne! Oh, Liz, show him the photos. Let me just remind all you defense attorneys on the show tonight voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense, OK? There were about 500 pills found in the home -- 500 pills! Not only that, all these bottles of wine open. When the cops got there, and started talking to her, she stunk. She reeked of booze. She was on all sorts of pills, had been chain smoking, and was sitting out, lounging by the pool, reading a magazine, an article about eight ways to be happy, the picture of boozed up, doped up, self-centered and self-absorbed, sitting out there, reading a magazine about how to be happy, when she had just shot her child! It`s almost more than anybody can take in!
For those of you that haven`t heard, we are here camped outside the Schenecker courthouse here in downtown Tampa. But you know what? You listen. Take a listen to what the prosecutor just told this jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She takes her gun, bam, shoots her son a second time in the face area, around the upper lip, the mouth, the mouth that was disrespecting her, as well, the sassy mouth, as she called it. Her son is dead in the car.
She raises the gun up, bam, shoots her in the back of the head. And Calyx Schenecker`s body falls to the left in her chair, blood pouring out of her head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant wrote in the journal as to what she did and why she did it, Calyx drove me to drink.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much alcohol did you have, about?
JULIE SCHENECKER, MURDER DEFENDANT: Three or four glasses.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`ll see that she`s shaking on that video. And you may think, Well, she looks crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the worst thing I have ever done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get to judge the defendant`s state of mind at the time of the crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Take a look at that weapon, everybody. We are here in downtown Tampa, parked outside the Tampa courthouse, the Schenecker courthouse, as many are calling it, the line`s long to get into that courtroom, sitting there looking at Julie Schenecker. She looks nothing like the young mom that you see in all the photos. Her hair is mousy brown, put back in a bun. She`s not shaking and acting like she`s sick, the way she did when she was first arrested. Now she acts perfectly normal in court.
Back to that gun. Matt Zarrell, also on the story, a lot has been made of the fact that she was actually angry that she had to have a waiting period by the time she -- from the time she gave the gun shop the money and the time she could bring it home. That`s evidence of premeditation. What did we learn?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, prosecutors said that Schenecker planned a Saturday massacre and was very disappointed that she had to wait. Five days after buying the gun, she drives back to the gun store, buys the .38-caliber hollow point bullets. When she`s asked why she`s getting the gun, she lies and tells the clerk...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Hold on, Matt. Hold on, Matt! Wait a minute. Slow down the locomotive, man. Did you just say hollow point bullets?
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: She went and bought hollow point bullets to use on her children?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: OK, the reason I`m asking about that, Roger Schulman, Tampa reporter in court today -- Roger, those are actually banned by The Hague in an international agreement because they do so much damage to the victim`s body. They -- hollow point bullets, everybody, is what we`re talking about. They actually open up with five to six talons in your body. They mushroom open and they inflict incredible pain to the victim.
So what do we know, Roger? Follow up on what Matt was just saying. As far as this being premeditation, she even reduces to writing how angry she is she had to wait for the Saturday massacre of her children.
SCHULMAN: Yes. And she got that gun. It was a five-bullet revolver. It`s called the Bodyguard, made by Smith and Wesson. And those hollow point bullets -- Verland Adams (ph), the medical examiner at the time, said they did a great deal of damage. And the first bullet that hit Calyx didn`t kill her. The second one did. It went right into her brain. And I believe Beau was killed instantly with his first bullet. They were both shot twice.
GRACE: You know what surprised me, Roger Schulman? Let me throw this to Eris Huemer, psychotherapist joining me. I didn`t realize that police found a trail of blood, where she actually -- after shooting her daughter in the back of the head and then up through the mouth. Remember, she wrote, She has a sassy mouth? Well, she showed her. She shot her honor student in the mouth.
Then the medical examiner said there were scrapes consistent with dragging the little girl`s body across the carpet to the bed, and that went with a trail of blood. The significance of shooting both children in the mouth and mouth area is -- it`s heart-breaking, Eris.
ERIS HUEMER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It surely is. And you know, Nancy, cold-blooded murder often happens with parents when the children are seen as obstacles for the parents to live a better life. And what`s interesting in this is that you said the mother was found reading an article about six ways to live a better life. So this definitely sounds like it`s premeditated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... because she was running her mouth and shot her, I think, in the mouth, which is consistent with what the detectives find, shot son because he was copying daughter, shot him in the side of the head and in his mouth because they, too -- they were too sassy. Again, consistent with what the detectives found. And I didn`t know if the neighbors would hear it, but I guess they didn`t or they would have come running. This is the worst thing I have ever done.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live here outside the Tampa courthouse, many people calling it the Schenecker courthouse, Julie Schenecker on trial for shooting both of her young children, star student, soccer player, the works, dead when they talk back to her, shooting them in the mouth and the mouth area. One of them, the honor student, sitting there at her computer doing homework, the other en route to a soccer game, shoots him while he`s still in the car buckled in.
With me right now, "Gina," former inmate at same jail as Schenecker, and served meals to Julie Schenecker. Gina, thanks for being with us. What did you learn about Julie Schenecker during this time? Was she getting special treatment?
"GINA," FORMER INMATE (via telephone): Well, actually, yes, she was being held in the infirmary, which is, like, a medical area. And she had a hospital bed with an air mattress, a private room with her own sink, her own toilet, a mirror. It was air-conditioned. So she -- yes, she got (INAUDIBLE) more than what everybody else...
GRACE: You`re seeing shots right now of the Hillsborough County jail.
You know, I understand there was one moment in time where she had gone to meet with her lawyers. And sheriffs typically will search your cell while you`re gone. And she came back and noticed some things were out of place and absolutely threw an anger fit. And as punishment, they took her bed away and made her sleep on the floor. Is that true, Gina?
"GINA": Yes, that`s correct. They were actually uncuffing her because typically, they would have two female guards go in the room to uncuff her because they don`t do it in the hallway. And while they were in there, she threw her arms back and punched the guard in the face and attacked her as, like, a form of retaliation.
GRACE: So if she would do that to prison guards, what would she do to her own helpless children?
To Steve Helling with "People" magazine. You actually sat down with Colonel Parker Schenecker. What did you learn, Steve?
HELLING: Well, you know, I`ve been in that house where this whole thing happened. And one thing that I don`t think people understand is that this is one of those houses that -- it`s the house -- it`s the American dream. It`s what everybody`s hoping for. Julie really did have it all. And you know, she can say whatever she wants to say, but the bottom line is, she chose to make some choices, and then she covered it up.
GRACE: Whoa! Chose to make some choices? Isn`t it true that she had everything she`d wants, a multi-million-dollar home, a gorgeous car, the children, the husband? But she chose to stay in bed and sleep until 5:00 and 6:00 o`clock, wouldn`t make food for the children, had a wreck when she was boozed up and on Oxycontin. You know, and now to say that she`s crazy? No, no! She wanted to be drunk and high on prescription pills, Steve.
HELLING: And I think it`s really obvious when you start looking at, you know, the Post-It notes. And you know, she did know the difference between right and wrong because she wrote that, you know, This is the worst thing I have ever done. I feel terrible. She knew what she was doing. I think everybody knows that in that courtroom.
GRACE: Well, I can tell you...
HELLING: The jurors sure do.
GRACE: ... that jury, when they were looking in those crime scene photos, some of them actually went -- you know, they actually blanched when they saw some of those photos. Thank God in heaven the father doesn`t have to look at them. The grandmother is sitting beside the father, just crying, just crying in court as she`s hearing the medical examiner testify.
Everybody, we are here outside the courthouse and taking your calls in the Julie Schenecker murder trial, accused of murdering her two children because they were, quote, "sassy."
Later on tonight, Clippers owner Donald Sterling storms out of an interview with Barbara Walters as his mistress claims, We`re, quote, "just friends." The NBA trying to ban the owner for life. Tonight, we uncover, let me say, unseemly divorce details.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rochelle Sterling. She`s been married to the Clippers owner for more than 50 years, given that Rochelle is well aware of Stiviano and her relationship with her husband.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Clippers owner Donald Sterling storms out of an interview with ABC`s Barbara Walters. His mistress claiming, we`re just friends. He spends nearly $2 million on just a friend? The NBA trying to ban him for life. At this hour, we uncover very disturbing divorce details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was her Instagram page and this photo with Magic Johnson that sent her boyfriend Donald Sterling over the edge.
DONALD STERLING: (inaudible), you don`t have yourself walking with black people.
V. STIVIANO: I love him like a father figure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She claims to be his archivist. But it`s unclear exactly what that means.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love your sandals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are they from?
STIVIANO: I`m his confidant, his best friend. His silly rabbit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: That photo is from TMZ Sports. Amid all this brouhaha, this is what started it all. Take a listen to this so-called race rant by the owner of the Clippers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STIVIANO: People call you and tell you I have black people on my Instagram and it bothers you?
STERLING: It bothers me a lot that you want to broadcast that you`re associating with black people. Do you have to?
STIVIANO: You associate with black people.
STERLING: I`m not you and you`re not me. You`re supposed to be a delicate white or a delicate Latina girl.
STIVIANO: I`m a mixed girl. And you`re in love with me. And I`m black and Mexican, whether you like it or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everybody, that portion is from TMZ Sports. Let me just say everything is going downhill.
Joining me now, Chris Dimino, sports radio talk show host. Chris, it looks worse and worse every day for Donald Sterling. Now V. Stiviano comes up and says that they`re just friends. Take a look at all the money he spent on Stiviano. Just friends? He`s paying her millions -- a $2 million home, $240,000 off the books. The IRS will be happy to hear about that. A fleet of cars. A quarter million dollar living expenses, and the cars are incredible. The amount of money he`s spending just for wheels for this girl. So Chris Dimino, what`s happening with the divorce?
CHRIS DIMINO, SPORTS RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, we know now that in March papers were filed basically saying that`s my property every bit as much as it is yours, therefore she can`t have it. That`s not going to be settled for a while, because these things don`t get settled that quickly.
I do think what`s interesting is, he has the right to do whatever he wants, whether you call it an employee relationship or not, but when this happens, now everything will be investigated. And --
GRACE: Chris, is that Stiviano walking around with that visor over her face? What is that all about?
DIMINO: Yes, she basically said public ridicule was coming her way, but she obviously was willing to take it off to do a sitdown with Barbara Walters. All you need to know is she has an attorney. He`ll have a slew of attorneys coming up in a not so distant future. And really, what it`s going to come down to is how much does he want the NBA being able to or wanting to take away his team? That`s the next part of this, because believe me, every indication is, including from the LA mayor, he`s not going down without a fight. He`s never done anything without a fight in his life, but he`s had to pay off at the end. So that`s next.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Also with me, Cedric Maxwell, former NBA player who played for the Clippers. Guys, everything hit the fan at this interview he was supposed to give with Barbara Walters, and apparently he`s in the elevator with his girlfriend -- Stiviano -- excuse me, just friends. Starts calling her a media whore and a f-ing blabbermouth. Something to that effect. It all blew up, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: Is Donald Sterling a racist?
STIVIANO: No. I don`t believe it in my heart.
WALTERS: Had you heard him say derogatory things about minorities in general? Blacks in particular?
STIVIANO: Absolutely.
WALTERS: You`ve heard him say derogatory things?
STIVIANO: Yes.
WALTERS: Don`t they sound racist to you?
STIVIANO: I think the things he says are not what he feels. Anyone can say anything in the heat of the moment.
WALTERS: Not everybody makes alleged racist remarks in the heat of the moment. Sometimes in the heat of the moment you say things --
STIVIANO: That you mean.
WALTERS: That you mean.
STIVIANO: Or that you feel.
WALTERS: Yes, explain how he says these things.
STIVIANO: I think Mr. Sterling is from a different generation than I am. I think he was brought up to believe those things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s from ABC`s "20/20." All right, to you, Cedric Maxwell, superstar, former NBA player with the L.A. Clippers, Celtics, Rockets. Sports radio analyst on the Sports Hub. Thanks for being with us.
OK. You hear the just friends slash mistress. A man doesn`t pay a woman over $2 million to be friends, all right. This guy didn`t even (ph) know they`re friends. That aside. What about her saying, I mean, she hears him say, why are you -- thank you for coming to the courthouse, ma`am. Why are you hanging out with black people? He`s mad at her. How can she say with a straight face, he`s not racist? Now, to you -- what`s your experience with him, and what does this mean in the NBA? I mean, how can they force him to give up his team? He owns it.
CEDRIC MAXWELL, FORMER CLIPPERS PLAYER: I think you look at it this way, when you talk about being racist or racism, that is true, you see it over and over again, everything he said. I think you see it also with the wife, how she handled the housing violation. How she went into a house -- and a huge apartment building and said she was a health inspector. There`s a lot of things that are bad about it, but I think if you look at the NBA the way it is right now, it`s like having a McDonald`s franchise. It`s an expensive one. But if you think of it this way, he is an owner of a team, a franchise. If you do something bad in that franchise, then McDonald`s can come in and take it away from you. That is what the NBA has done. They`ve done the right things.
GRACE: Let me get this straight, Maxwell. You mean, it`s like -- let me dummy it down for us lawyers. You mean it`s like a McDonald`s franchise. If the owner of the McDonald`s doesn`t meet the quality expected, they can yank his franchise? I get it, I think I`m getting it anyway. Was he racist to your knowledge?
MAXWELL: When I played during that time, Donald Sterling had not been with the team. He owned it for about two or three years I think at that particular time. So he was brand new to it. So we did not get a chance to see Donald Sterling in the light that it is portrayed now. It was a brand new situation for him. He had about two or three years, and that was it.
GRACE: I have got to tell you something. Cedric Maxwell, I like to look up to my boss. I like to think they`re making the right decisions and think that I`m working on a team. And that they`re running the team. And I don`t know how people can play for him now. I don`t know how they can go out there on the court and play knowing what`s really in his heart. I don`t care what his girlfriend says. Maxwell, and Dimino, thank you for being with us.
Everybody, when we come back, Hollywood superstar Ben Affleck. Star of "Good Will Hunting," "Argo," now "Batman," busted in Vegas?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So apparently Ben Affleck is so good at blackjack that sources say the actor was banned from playing at the Hard Rock Casino in Vegas. He wins too much.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Hollywood superstar Ben Affleck, star of "Good Will Hunting," remember that? "Argo" and now "Batman," busted in Vegas. I love Ben Affleck. I love Jennifer Garner even more than I love him. And they have got these two girls and a little boy now. Out to you, John Shaffer, program director, News Talk 728 AM KDWN. You`re joining me out of Vegas. What happened? Why was Ben Affleck booted in Vegas?
JOHN SHAFFER, NEWS TALK 720 KDWN: Well, Nancy, apparently what happens here doesn`t stay here, especially when you`re a celebrity the level of Ben Affleck. Apparently last week he and Jennifer Garner had come here for a little break before they had to go off to Detroit for his filming of the new "Batman" movie. He was playing blackjack at the Hard Rock when security came up to him and said to him, you`re just too good at the game and told him he couldn`t play blackjack there anymore.
GRACE: Isn`t it true, Stacy Newman, he was accused of card counting?
NEWMAN: He was, Nancy, and it was to the point where there was even an internal e-mail prior to this, that was circled around the Wynn and the Encore, who were telling their staff be on the lookout for Ben because he`s counting cards and moving money around.
GRACE: So Jeff Voyles, joining me out of Vegas, gambling expert, gaming security expert. Everybody, you`re seeing video of Affleck playing in a poker tournament from YouTube that he won, I might add. He won over $300,000. And let me also point out that other times when he`s won big, he gives all of it away in tips to the dealers, the staff, the bartenders, the waitresses. Jeff, thanks for being with us. One, what is card counting? And try to dummy down for us lawyers. And no. 2, it`s not a crime, is it?
JEFF VOYLES, GAMBLING EXPERT: It`s not a crime at all. Card counting is a sophisticated way to play. Very few people have that ability. It`s really assigning a value to the cards. If you take a look at the table here, I`ll show you the values we have. 2 through 6 is plus one. 10 through ace is minus one. And 7, 8, 9 are zero, the value of zero. So when you have these cards placed on the layout, the card counter themselves look at the layout and cross-reference these cards. And give an idea of what that means.
GRACE: OK. I think I just told you to dummy down. And you`re totally over my head. If Ben Affleck can do what you`re saying he`s accused of doing, then power to him. Jeff, it`s not a crime, again, though, right?
VOYLES: It is not a crime, no. It`s forbidden if you will. The casinos look at it as a very sophisticated way to play. Having said that, the casinos have a right to look at their play and to evaluate it and decide whether or not that player continues.
GRACE: OK, Brad Lamm, addiction specialist, founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers. He`s been in trouble before for gambling. I think he lost like $400,000 in a high stakes game with a bunch of A listers. I think he swore it off. But is it true that gambling is just like booze or drugs? It gets in your blood and you can`t quit?
LAMM: He got that hunger. The -- also, you know, Nancy, in the past, he`s had trouble with alcohol, so it makes me wonder if it`s a case where he`s tempting the devil here, when 2 to 3 percent of Americans really struggle with gambling addiction. I would like to know that.
GRACE: His net worth is over $40 million. It`s my understanding, John Shaffer, joining me from Vegas, when he lost that 400 grand, that`s when he was with J.Lo, and she was calling him every five minutes. Where are you, where are you? And he lost his game. I guess with Jennifer Garner, she`s kind of a good luck thing?
SHAFFER: It seems that way, because he has won hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars playing blackjack at the Hard Rock since then.
GRACE: So Jeff Voyles, how do you look at somebody and tell they`re card counting. How could they look at Ben Affleck, if you`re doing it in your head, how can you look at somebody and tell they`re card counting?
VOYLES: There`s a lot of behaviors we look at. It`s very difficult to remove your emotions from the game. I`m not sure why Ben chose to do that, because he`s a high profile celebrity, in the sense that a lot of the card counters want to camouflage their play.
GRACE: Can you demonstrate?
VOYLES: Sure. If I can show you some of the hands. This is what the card counters are looking at as they`re dealt out. They`re looking at the cards and cross-referencing, like I said, 10, jack, king, queen, ace having minus one. So you have a minus one and a plus one, you have a zero, they cross each other out. You have two through six is plus one, so you have a plus two. Ten, jack, king, queen, ace minus one. So this cross references zero. Same thing here. The dealer turns their card over, this is zero, pulls a six, that`s a plus one. You`ll see that the card counters themselves cross reference all the cards and come up with a count. Based upon that count, they make bets appropriately based upon the risk that`s in front of them.
GRACE: Everybody, there you see it, and I still say, if Affleck can do that, he deserves every penny he can make.
When we come back, police say mommy hides seven pregnancies, gives birth only to murder each child one after the next. In the last hours, mommy busted saying she can`t even remember how many babies she strangled dead.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t notice Huntsman had ever been pregnant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seven dead infants in the garage. Babies. Police say 39-year-old gave birth to, killing at least six of them.
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GRACE: And to Pleasant Grove. Cops say mommy hides seven pregnancies, gives birth, only to murder one child after the next. You look at her, she seems like a nice neighbor. Not true. Now mommy is busted, saying she can`t even remember how many children that she has strangled dead, and actually throws out she thinks it may be eight or nine. Eight or nine children. Jim Kirkwood, KTKK joining me out of Salt Lake. I can`t believe it. This says to me there could be more dead bodies.
KIRKWOOD: You`re certainly right, Nancy. She had seven in the garage in those boxes and wrapped up in plastic and sweaters and towels and things. But who knows how many. And the further question, Nancy, that you brought up, is why couldn`t those teenage daughters and that husband who was there then, why didn`t anybody know about this?
GRACE: You know, it`s overwhelming, staggering. We know of seven dead infants. To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining me out of Philly tonight. Dr. Manion, how are we going to be able to tell if she says one of them was stillborn? How can you determine if that`s true or not, Dr. Manion?
MANION: Well, if it`s very immature, only 4 months old or 5 months old, it wouldn`t have been able to live, wouldn`t have been able to be viable born at home like that. So depends on the age of it. X-rays will be taken of these babies to look for fractures, to look for broken necks, and an anthropologist will also examine the babies to try to give as precise an age as to how many months old they are, but if there`s one there that`s 3 or 4 months old, that may be the stillborn.
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GRACE: The bodies of seven tiny infants found in mommy`s garage, wrapped in clothing, towels, plastic bags. Tonight, we learned in the last hours mommy says she can`t even remember how many tiny babies she has strangled dead and alludes to the fact there may be eight or nine. To Jim Kirkwood, KTKK, what, if anything, are police doing to determine if there are more dead bodies to be found?
KIRKWOOD: They`re doing searches, they have taken sections of mattress. They`ve brought in the FBI because of their better lab to determine DNA, and death and all these issues. They`re really expanding this investigation, Nancy.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, Randy Kessler. You know, they`ve got the death penalty in this jurisdiction, Kessler?
KESSLER: Like in Schenecker (ph), when they`re not asking for the death penalty, that`s probably the best decision a prosecutor could make. Look what happened with Casey Anthony. When you go for the death penalty, the jury gets a little more sympathetic. Do they really want to find someone guilty and risk them going to die? I think the prosecution should not seek the death penalty.
GRACE: Sanchez, having to dig deep all the way back to tot mom. What about it, Sanchez?
KESSLER: It worked.
SANCHEZ: You know, if this woman is not a kook, I don`t know what a kook is. I predict the prosecution is probably going to try this case one person at a time. So in case they lose on one case, they can win on the next.
GRACE: Good thinking, Sanchez. We`ll stay on it. Tonight, she doesn`t even remember how many children she has murdered.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Corporal Kevin Queto, 23, San Jose. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon. Loved music and military history. Parents Phillip and Kelly, brother, Timothy. Kevin Cueto, American hero.
And tonight, congratulations to Courtney graduating Wright State University with a bachelor`s in psychology and criminal justice. Next, grad school.
And to all of you moms out there, to all of you celebrating Mother`s Day, go to nancygrace.com for a contest that can win you a complete set of our handcuff necklaces and new bracelets. And other surprises for moms. All the proceeds go to a Methodist home for abused children. Go to nancygrace.com. Drew up next, everybody. Again, we`re signing off for tonight here at the courthouse. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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