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Nancy Grace
Julie Schenecker Found Guilty
Aired May 15, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: To all of you, a verdict in the Julie Schenecker double murder trial. Let`s go straight into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State of Florida versus Julie Schenecker, case 11CF001376, trial division three. We the jury find as follows in count one of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm, causing death. We the jury find as follows in count two of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm, causing death. So say we all. Dated this 15 day in May, 2014. Charles Madison (ph), foreperson of the jury.
JULIE SCHENECKER, CONVICTED OF MURDER: I apologize to everybody in this courtroom who (INAUDIBLE) broken their lives! I have destroyed! I hope they can collect themselves as best as possible, all of us, and not just this courtroom, anybody who knew our family!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Immediately after the verdict, the jury polled. There you see Julie Schenecker in handcuffs, so very carefully kept from the jury throughout this. But once that verdict of guilty came down, the jury was allowed to see this, the truth. And when that verdict was read, there was no shaking, there was no drama, Julie Schenecker in full control of her faculties as the jury read out that verdict.
The jury polling was a moment in the courtroom I will never forget as Julie Schenecker -- Liz, let me see if you can pull that up -- as Julie Schenecker looked at that jury as each one of them answered multiple questions. Is this your verdict? Was this your verdict in the jury room? Is this still your verdict? That jury, all 12 of them, answering yes.
I`m going to bring you that polling in just one moment. There you see Julie Schenecker as she hears the jury. Take a listen to the jury polling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sherry Kendall (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charles Madison, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trent Lahan, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tina Ocampo (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mario Thomas (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donna Williams (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ricky Ramos (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Hart (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Julian Sykes (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Barbara Hawkins (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: William Chuzzlewit (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And James Hall (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SCHENECKER: I`m prepared. I`m prepared and I accept your sentence! I apologize. I apologize to everybody in this courtroom who have broken their lives! I have destroyed. I hope we can collect -- collect themselves as best as possible, all of us, not just this courtroom, anybody who knew our family, Calyx and Beau, our children`s friends, teachers, coaches, our relatives (INAUDIBLE) aunts, cousins, grandparents, uncles, nieces, nephews. Everyone has been so deeply affected.
And I understand there are people who are affected by this that may have just read about it in the paper. Maybe a child looked at their mommy and said, Mommy, are you ever going to shoot me? I know that this could...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Guys, I`m coming out of that for just this moment. Right now, joining us is a Schenecker juror on the phone. Thank you for being with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GRACE: We are all bringing in the verdict as it is happening. And I`d like to hear -- I completely agree with your verdict. But before I taint you with my opinion, I`d like to hear your thoughts, sir. You sat through all the evidence, and you rendered the verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My thoughts on the -- on the evidence?
GRACE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the evidence was actually kind of overwhelming, particularly the journal. The journal was just kind of filled with a lot of hate, well thought out, a lot of it. You could tell she actually was planning quite a ways out exactly what she was going to do it and how she was going to do it. And the defense could never prove the insanity plea, that she didn`t know right from wrong. And that`s really the biggest thing. This whole thing was just kind of a whole sad, sad case.
GRACE: You know, I feel the same way. I`m over -- I`m torn -- everybody, with me -- and also taking your calls -- is a Schenecker juror, who has just delivered this verdict.
I was torn between wanting justice for Calyx and Beau, sir, and also the overwhelming sadness, just overwhelming sadness -- I`ve got a boy and a girl, too -- the just overwhelming despair of what this father must have gone through.
I find something you said very interesting, sir. You brought up her journal, because to me, that journal was the single most powerful evidence proving premeditation. What did you think of it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it was definitely premeditated. And the verdict was actually for Calyx and Beau. They didn`t deserve what they got. It`s a whole -- it`s a shame that she couldn`t have gotten help long before it happened. But I`m not sure she got the right kind of help.
GRACE: When you were looking at her in court -- everyone, with me right now is a juror of the Schenecker trial. A verdict has just come down, a guilty verdict. And there`s a mandatory sentence. There`s no leeway in Florida. If you are convicted of murder one, you get life without parole. And that is the correct sentence and verdict in this case.
With me, a Schenecker juror. As you sat and looked at her in court -- and I came to court and watched the jury and watched the evidence. And I saw you guys looking over at her. You`d look at the witness stand, you`d look over at her, back to the witness stand.
What were you thinking as you looked at Schenecker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As I looked at Julie?
GRACE: As you looked at Julie Schenecker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m seeing a person that`s really mainly sick, that - - of course, when we`re looking at her on the jury, she`s on full meds. The state`s keeping her medicated correctly, like she should be, which wasn`t happening back at the time of the crime.
But she seemed to break down a few times, and I noticed -- well, she seemed to be in control of herself. She was taking notes. She was following the case quite well. She`s a very intelligent woman. Just a lot of demons going around in that head of hers, I guess.
GRACE: You know, she is incredibly intelligent. Did you know she was a Russian linguist when she first...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we heard about that.
GRACE: Yes, that`s how they met. I mean, she`s absolutely no dummy. You know what impressed me about the journal, the fact that she had planned this so far in advance. And I also spoke with the owner of the gun shop, who said she was perfectly normal when she came in and bought the gun, and in fact, even made up a lie that she needed to protect herself from a home invasion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that went a lot to showing that she knew what she was doing. I think she was severely depressed. I think she did have a lot of problems. I`m not sure she could handle the two kids.
And I don`t know exactly what the home life was. You hear a lot, but you don`t really know unless you`re in there. But she just couldn`t take it anymore, and -- I don`t know how much she really wanted to kill herself. She had the chance to do it, and she didn`t do it. But it`s a sad case. It`s just a shame it had to come to that.
GRACE: Well, it is a sad case. You know, you guys were not out very long, and with this evidence, I completely understand that. Did anyone want to vote not guilty, or was everyone convinced during the trial?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think everybody was on the page. We had a big discussion on what was going on in her mind at the time of the incident and whether she was insane or not. In the end, she all -- we all agreed that she was sane. She knew what she was doing. The shot to the mouth played a big part in that.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she -- they was already dead, she went back and shot them in the mouth, the sassy mouth or the mouthy mouth as she called it in the journal. That just showed hate.
GRACE: You know, that hurt me so bad. That hurt me so bad when I heard that. And we`re not revealing your name or your identity, but were you or other people on the jury parents? Do you guys have children?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
GRACE: To think of, after they`re dead, going back and shooting them in the mouth -- that just -- I could barely take it in when I heard that evidence. How did everybody react on the jury to that fact? You said that was very important.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) we all thought it was a chilling point, the hate, that she actually had to shoot Beau in the mouth. After she shot him on the road, then she went home and shot him back at home after he was already dead. So I`m sure that everybody on the jury -- that was a big point of our discussion, trying to convince ourselves that we were making the right -- the right verdict.
GRACE: Sir, I can`t thank you enough for being with us because we`ve been watching on the outside looking in because all of this is in the hands of a jury. And I studied you guys so carefully sitting in that courtroom. I was wondering what effect all that alcohol, all the booze and all the drugs in her home had on you, the fact that she was treated for drugs and alcohol. She was not really treated for mental illness. She was treated for drinking too much. How did that play into your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alcohol, not really that much. And apparently, the alcohol only started in the last six months or so, the heavy alcohol use and the drugs. And I don`t know how much of a factor it really played. She had the accident. They took her to the hospital, drew blood. She didn`t get a DUI. That was kind of odd. I`m not sure exactly -- I think instead of rehab, she should have gone to a mental health facility as an inpatient, and all this probably would have been avoided.
GRACE: Can I ask you something, sir? As you were listening to the defense argument and closing argument -- I mean -- I mean, you got to give them credit. They were trying anything that they could. And that`s their job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) they did the best in the closing arguments, and they raised a lot of points that we went over in the jury room that we hadn`t really thought about or knew before. But in the end, she knew what she was doing.
GRACE: Yes, it seemed to me they were, in a way, trying to blame Parker Schenecker. And that`s their job. They`ve got to find somebody to blame. I don`t hold it against them personally. But I don`t think that this was Parker`s fault. I got the sense that this was a get-back at him because she thought he was going to divorce her. And I mean, that e-mail she sent him -- she kills her kids and then writes him, Hurry home, we`re waiting on you. She wanted him to find those children dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. (INAUDIBLE) have a hard time understanding (INAUDIBLE) preparing (ph) hearing you, but...
GRACE: It seemed to me that he wanted -- she wanted him to suffer. She wanted Parker Schenecker to come home and find the dead bodies. Did the jury think that too?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we took that into account, that that`s what she wanted. I`m not sure about that. She probably did. We don`t know whatever factors that she wanted to get back at Parker for sending her to rehab or not. The defense -- I mean, that was brought up during the trial a couple times. I don`t know how true that is without really knowing what was in her mind at the time.
(INAUDIBLE) the main thing was the journal, which was filled with hate, showed that she was planning. The video of her going to the -- in the gun shop showed that she was well in control.
GRACE: Yes, and actually smiling. She was actually smiling at the gun shop owners. Do you have any question in your mind about your verdict? Are you firm in your verdict and you feel you did the right thing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we absolutely did the right verdict. There was no other choice. The only other thing would be for the state to actually - - I mean, the defense to prove that she was actually insane. And they didn`t do that by any stretch of the imagination. They tried. They tried everything they could. But in Florida...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State of Florida versus Julie Schenecker, case 11CF001376, trial division three. We the jury find as follows in count one of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm, causing death. We the jury find as follows in count two of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm, causing death. So say we all. Dated this 15 day in May, 2014. Charles Madison (ph), foreperson of the jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sherry Kendall (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charles Madison, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trent Lahan, is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tina Ocampo (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mario Thomas (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donna Williams (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ricky Ramos (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Hart (ph), is this your verdict?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, the jury has handed down a verdict in state versus Julie Schenecker, Schenecker charged with the brutal murder of her two children, Beau and Calyx, and then writing her husband, Hurry home, we`re waiting on you, even manipulating the face of her daughter in death to put a smile on her daughter`s face, the jury rejecting the plea of insanity.
Out to Gerry Tanso, owner of Lock `n Load, who sold the murder weapon to Julie Schenecker. He`s joining me from Oldsmar (ph), Florida. Gerry, thanks for being with us. Are you surprised at the verdict, based on what you saw in the gun shop, Lock `n Load?
GERRY TANSO, GUN SHOP OWNER (via telephone): I think they`re absolutely right.
GRACE: And why do you say that?
TANSO: She was very, very coherent. She was a normal person, like, doing business, nothing out of the normal. That`s all we can say, really. I mean, she was just an average person.
GRACE: You know, we`re showing the viewers -- I don`t know if you can see it or not -- we`re showing the viewers a shot of her, Julie Schenecker, at your gun store, Lock `n Load. And she`s actually smiling and carrying on a conversation with you guys.
TANSO: Yes, she was having a normal conversation, like we do with most of our customers, asking questions, joking, fooling around, no -- nothing suspicious, no signs of any kind of mentalness (ph) or -- nothing, just normal, you know, normal sales -- normal sale time, you know?
GRACE: There you see what he`s talking about -- Gerry Tanso with me. This is the Julie Schenecker that he encountered, a far cry from what the defense would have you believe in the courtroom.
Gerry Tanso, owner of Lock `n Load, she came one day, bought the gun, came back another day so she could actually get the gun. She was a little angry that there`s a waiting period in Florida. You can`t just go in and come home with a gun.
Was she surprised there was a waiting period before she could actually physically get the gun?
TANSO: She was. She thought she was taking it home that day. But Florida -- well, all law, state law requires a three-day wait. And that wait requires only working days, not weekends. So she actually waited five days before picking up the weapon.
GRACE: Gerry Tanso, if this jury had returned a verdict claiming she was insane, what would you have thought?
TANSO: I don`t know how they could. It would be -- it would be -- I don`t know. It just wouldn`t be right because she was not insane at all. This was premeditated all the way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHENECKER: (INAUDIBLE) take responsibility. I was there. I know -- I know I shot them!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the last moments, Julie Schenecker has been found guilty on two counts of murder one. That is a mandatory sentence of life behind bars without parole in Florida. There was an enhancement of 25 years additional on each count when there is violence committed with a gun. Those sentences went down, as well, the defense begging the judge to put off the sentencing, Put it off so we can confer, so we can talk. No! The judge went straight to sentencing, Schenecker handcuffed immediately upon that guilty verdict, and then sentenced, with a bizarre, rambling and incoherent -- well, actually, coherent but still bizarre and rambling statement that she gave, apologizing to aunts, uncles, coaches, people she didn`t even know, for her actions.
To -- out to you, to the lines. Jamie in Tennessee. Jamie, what`s your question? I think I have Jamie with me. Are you there, Jamie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeannie?
GRACE: OK, I`m going to try Debra in North Carolina. Hi, Debra. What`s your question, dear? OK, my callers down.
I`m going to straight out to Steve Helling until we get those callers up. Steve, tell me what happened in the courtroom when the verdict was announced.
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, you know, it was really interesting, when the verdict was announced, just watching -- you know, everybody was quiet. The bailiff had said to nobody can make any sound, nobody can make any sort of facial expressions. So we all kind of sat there quietly.
But you could see that -- I was sitting behind Parker Schenecker. He was breathing very quickly. Obviously, this was a nerve-wracking experience for everyone. And I did notice during that Julie`s statement, she did apologize to everybody except to her husband. She never mentioned him.
GRACE: There you see Schenecker in court. When we come back, you`ll here what she told the judge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The State of Florida versus Julie Schenecker, case 11- CF001376 Child Division 3. We the jury find as follows in count one of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first-degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm causing death.
We the jury find as follows on count two of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first-degree murder. The defendant did actually possess and discharge a firearm causing death. So say we all dated this 15th day May 2014.
Charles Madison, foreperson of the jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, joining me right now, Shireen Hormozdi, defense attorney. Also with me in New York, defense attorney, Alex Sanchez.
OK. Shireen Hormozdi and Alex Sanchez, bottom line, as soon as she was convicted, the defense started up wanting a delay. Where are my lawyers? First of all to you, Alex Sanchez, it`s a mandatory sentence, why did they want a delay?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They wanted a delay so they can bring in additional information in the hopes of making some type of a record to convince the judge that she should not be sentenced two consecutive time. But this case brings up an unresolved issue. You know, she may not have been legally insane, but she`s something. She`s got mental problems.
GRACE: Yes, she`s something, all right.
SANCHEZ: And the criminal -- yes, the criminal justice system doesn`t seem to have room for people like her, that have serious mental disorder. It`s like it doesn`t matter. It`s completely irrelevant. And I think that`s wrong.
GRACE: OK. Let me refresh your recollection, as we say in the courtroom.
To Alexis Weed, who has been in court along with Meredyth Censullo and Steve Helling throughout.
Alexis, isn`t it true that she was just treated in rehab for drugs and alcohol and had suffered depression? Is that correct, Alexis?
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, it was just about two months before she killed her children.
GRACE: So, Alex Sanchez, all this discussion about all her mental illnesses, try as they might, what this boils down to is she was angry, she thought her husband was going to leave her, and she took it out on her children. That`s what happened. That`s not crazy. That`s a murderer.
SANCHEZ: Everything`s rooted in mental disorders. Even the prosecution admitted she had serious psychiatric disorders. Should it have some significance when it comes to sentencing? Or some significance in the criminal justice system? Are we supposed to just ignore it like it has no relevance, no meaning whatsoever?
GRACE: No, we don`t ignore it. Out to you, Shireen Hormozdi. To follow up on his point. No. That`s why we had the trial, that is why the judge ordered psychiatrists and psychologists. Not just prosecution and not just defense experts. The judge brings in independent experts to review this case. And either sides can use those experts, and it was deemed by them that she was not insane at the time of the incident.
SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: All six experts found that she was mentally ill and this jury deliberated --
GRACE: Of depression and alcohol.
HORMOZDI: Right. And she was mentally ill and her actions were abhorrent. And how could she have known right from wrong if she did something so atrocious?
GRACE: So you`re still arguing that she was insane, Shireen Hormozdi?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No. You`re saying she didn`t know right from wrong. That is the McNaughton Rule, take it from our common law that we bring over from Great Britain, that is the test for insanity, don`t know right and wrong at the time of the incident.
The jury has just told you that she was not insane, and you`re still arguing it, that`s different from what Sanchez is saying, that she`s kind of like somewhere in between.
You know what, we`re all just JDs, we`re not MDs, let`s go to a shrink.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, help me out.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Nancy, you can significant or several mental illness and be homicidal. One condition does not rule out the other. To me, what`s very significant are the journal entries because her handwriting is so legible and so clear. When someone is delusional or psychotic, usually their handwriting is illegible, rambling. References to God, there was none of that in the journal.
GRACE: You`re referring to the journal entries, correct, Bethany?
MARSHALL: Yes.
GRACE: Guys, take a look at the journal entries as the jury did, and speaking of the jury, joining us right now another juror, Trent Longhorn is with us, one of the 12 that deliberated the Julie Schenecker case.
Mr. Lawhon, thank you for being with us.
TRENT LAWHON, SCHENECKER JUROR: Yes, ma`am, how are you, Nancy?
GRACE: Well, Trent, I`ve gotten a little taste of what you guys lived through during the trial. I eyed you all in that courtroom, and saw you as you watched the evidence come from the witness stand and I`m really interested, I want to find out in your mind, what was the most powerful evidence for the state in.
LAWHON: The journal. I mean, the -- there`s no doubt about it, the journal is what sealed it.
GRACE: Which part of it? You know, because the part where she is talking about the evil will begin, and she names the date of the murders. The evil will begin on Thursday. I mean, it was so obviously planned out if you read her journals.
LAWHON: Well, if you go back before that she planned on a Saturday massacre which she put in her journals and she didn`t know there was a three-day wait on gun laws, so she was hoping to get a gun that day. I mean, if you look at it, the whole time, she was wanting to hurt Parker Schenecker. And my heart and every juror`s heart goes out to Parker.
GRACE: You know, I feel the same way, Trent.
Everyone with me, another juror joining us, Trent Lawhon, is speaking out. He has just come out of jury deliberations and the verdict.
What really hurt me -- I have a girl and a boy. What really hurt me to top it all off, I mean, what could be worse than killing your own children, but then writing Parker Schenecker an e-mail, as she`s tried to manipulate her daughter`s face into a smile in death, to say, hurry home, we`re all waiting on you. Knowing he would walk in that door and find these dead bodies, that just ripped my heart up, Trent.
LAWHON: Yes, ma`am. That`s the thing that got me. If you look back at the evidence. The two post-it notes she left on the door saying, car pool, went to NYC, be back on Tues. Friends, went to NYC, be back on Tues. It was all set up so she would hurt Parker, and it`s just terrible, I wouldn`t wish that on anybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We the jury find as follows on count one of the charge, count two of the charge. The defendant is guilty of first-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I apologize to everybody in this courtroom who I have broken their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty of first-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I take responsibility, I was there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is part of what Julie Schenecker says when she addresses the court. For those of you just joining us, a stunning verdict in a Florida courtroom there in Tampa. Julie Schenecker has been found guilty on two counts of murder one. As well as two charges of gun enhancement when violence is committed with a gun.
And joining me right now so we can get into the minds of the jurors, they`re the only ones that count, we don`t count in this scenario, it`s not about us, it`s about them and how they perceive the facts and the evidence and the law as it was presented in that courtroom.
With me juror Trent Lawhon. Trent, so much of it was disturbing. And I remember when the crime scene photos were being brought into evidence. And I remember, I did the same thing as a prosecutor. Parker Schenecker was sitting kind of back on one side of the courtroom and I noticed that they would always hold the picture down so he couldn`t see the picture. And then hold it up to the jurors.
Those crime scene photos to me were heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Do you think you`ll ever get that out of your mind?
LAWHON: No, ma`am, I have two children, an 8-year-old and a 7-year-old, one boy and one girl. And that`s one of the things that stuck with me. I wanted to make sure that -- even as she was let out on guilty with reason of insanity, that she would still go to a mental facility and be taken care of for a while. But when she gets released and she doesn`t have anyone watching her, what would make her stop -- stop her from doing this again?
GRACE: And you know, with me, Trent Lawhon, a juror in the Schenecker trial. That`s such a hard reality. If you`re going to feel sympathy for the defendant or be concerned about what`s going to happen when the defendant is released into an unsuspecting society.
Another moment that really gripped me and I can`t get it out of my head is when her little boy was saying, no, mom, no. She was saying, it`s a safe gun, it`s not real. She said that to her little boy, Beau, before she shot him. She lied to him and said it was a fake gun. And I don`t know why that fact just -- it was like a knife in my heart when I heard that. That the little boy was saying, no, mommy.
LAWHON: Yes, Nancy. He knew it was coming, if you see the evidence, they showed us pictures of his hand where he stuck his hand up to block the gunshot. And that`s the reason why she shot him three -- shot at him three times, the first bullet went through the windshield of the automobile where he -- with the gun and had a scrape on his hand with gun powder residue, and then the second time she took the gun and stuck it to the side of his head and shot him.
GRACE: You know, I don`t know how you could listen to those facts and not just cry. To think that that young boy saw his mother raise a gun to him and he was saying, no, no, no, and holding his hands up. And she pulled the trigger anyway, and kept shooting. I don`t know how you guys stood it and didn`t break down crying up there in the jury box, Trent?
LAWHON: I had tears in the side of my eyes and I kept wiping them away. Especially today when the prosecutor drove it home by putting pictures up there. I don`t want to see the pictures again, and it`s going to take a while to get over.
GRACE: With me is juror Trent Lawhon who has deliberated this trial and rendered a verdict.
Trent, do you feel in your heart you did the right thing?
LAWHON: Yes, ma`am. Unequivocally. I stuffed my emotions to the side, and done what the letter of the law stated. It gave you the insanity plea and with that, Nancy, you didn`t have any other option.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Nina Radcliffe, physician joining us. To me, the fact that she was let out of rehab and those doctors, all those therapists, doctors, shrinks, psychiatrists, nobody found her insane, nobody found her schizophrenic, they found her depressed, and voluntarily consuming drugs and alcohol. That is not a defense.
DR. NINA RADCLIFFE, PHYSICIAN: I`m sorry, repeat that, Nancy.
GRACE: I`m thinking about her being in rehab. And do you believe that any doctor or therapist in their right mind would have released her if she had had schizophrenia or some type of psychopathy, that was dangerous. Would they have released her?
RADCLIFFE: No, they wouldn`t have. And the problem is that these facilities are not meant to keep people there forever. They mentally rehabilitate them, get them on their medication, and people can take these medications, these schizophrenic medication, these antidepressants, and live normal lives. They can live lives where they do not function as being insane, they do work, can be family members, they can be mothers, they can be parents. They would not have released her if she was having delusions or she was sub therapeutic in her medication.
GRACE: And back to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, I don`t think any therapist in their right mind would have released her if she was schizophrenic or suffering some type of homicidal or suicidal ideation. I do not believe that. And they were treating her for alcohol and drugs. There were 500 pills in that home.
By all kind of different doctors that didn`t know about each other. She`d already crashed the car high on booze and Oxycontin. And then for them to make out that it was Parker Schenecker`s fault, the way they talked about him in closing argument, I think that was wrong, Bethany. It was not his fault.
MARSHALL: Nancy, they really maligned him, and you know the fact is, if she went into rehab, she got on anti-depressants and she started feeling better, once the depression lifted. She may have had been the energy to carry out her homicidal impulses.
GRACE: With me, Meredyth Censullo, along with Steve Helling and Alexis Weed at the courthouse.
Meredyth, Tampa reporter, also in court today.
Meredyth, it`s great to see you again. I want to hear exactly what you observed when that verdict came down.
MEREDYTH CENSULLO, TAMPA REPORTER: Well, everybody was very quiet. Not much emotion from Julie, not much emotion from Parker, but he`s been very stoic throughout this entire trial. It`s just been amazing to see how strong he is. Julie`s sister, who by the way, they look just like each other, and her sister`s been sitting right behind her throughout this trial. She did break down in tears. Julie`s mother next to her, put her arm around Julie`s sister. But no emotion from her.
Otherwise very quiet in the courtroom, and again not much emotion out of Julie, until she actually made her appeal to the judge.
GRACE: As the prosecution said, the concept of good versus evil has been around since man could think, that Schenecker knew the difference. She wrote Calyx and called her evil and that the evil would start Thursday. Well, it ended today. In a verdict of guilty.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The jury has returned a verdict in Julie Schenecker`s trial of guilty on all counts.
Very quickly, Matt Zarrell, at first she had other reasons for killing Calyx. How did Beau get dragged into it, her son?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, yes, the prosecutor revealed in closing argument which I thought was fantastic that the journal entries showed that Beau had become sassy and that Schenecker wrote, though it kills me now that he has turned on me just like Calyx he has to come along with us, too. And the prosecutor pointed out it wasn`t until she got mad at Beau then he had to go also.
GRACE: Shireen Hormozdi, Alex Sanchez, the fact that she was angry at her children and acted in anger in my mind, Sanchez, completely eradicates any possibility of the insanity defense. This was out of anger at her husband for god knows why. The man`s not having an affair. He`s working every day. He`s coming home, he`s trying to take care of her and the children and she did this at a get-back at him. That is not insanity.
SANCHEZ: I know. But you know you keep harping on insanity. But what about every --
GRACE: That is what they said. They said she`s insane.
SANCHEZ: I know, but what about every other mental illness short of insanity -- serious depression, anxiety disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar? Should those factors be considered by the criminal justice system? Should we pretend that that is completely meaningless?
GRACE: No one is pretending anything.
SANCHEZ: I think they are.
GRACE: This is all presented to a jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I apologize for what happened. What I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see Julie Schenecker in court apologizing to the judge. She went on to describe what a great judge he was, how well he had done. She apologized to all sorts of people including other parents. And these are her words.
"If your children come ask you, are you going to shoot them, I apologize for that." Those chilling words, that epitaph, will stick with us forever.
You know, Steve Helling, joining us from "People" magazine. All along, this was not just a case about insanity, not guilty, guilty, mental defect. This was a case about what is right and what is wrong. In the whole world, nobody is going to love you like your mother. Nobody. And to me, that truism rings in the courtroom that she could do this to her children.
HELLING: You know, you`re so right, Nancy, and why are we so fascinated by this case? Because this isn`t what we expect a mother to do. And so, yes, it`s a very sad case. It`s a very sad story. And I`m glad that the verdict was what it was.
GRACE: For those of you that have been following the Schenecker trial along with us, its ups and downs, I want to thank you for seeing justice unfold in yet another American courtroom. But tonight there`s no joy in the guilty verdict, but it is a just verdict.
Let me just say, good night, friend. To the memory of Calyx and Beau.
END
