Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Cops Trace Surveillance Cameras in Toddler`s Hot Car Death

Aired July 02, 2014 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. The tragic death of 22- month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy. But police say Daddy`s story riddled with

inconsistencies after Daddy breaks down screaming, doubled over in grief when he finds his boy dead in a boiling hot car. But was the tot actually

murdered?

Bombshell tonight. At this hour, we learn detectives retracing Daddy`s steps, and we do the same. Was Daddy`s every move actually caught

on camera? And tonight, we also hone in on Mommy`s whereabouts when her tot dies, now just hours away from a courtroom showdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tragic accident or premeditated murder? As new details are released, what roll did Mom play in the hot car death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They both admitted researching child car deaths on the Internet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re going to tell me that after seven hours, he did not smell that baby in the car for about the 10-minute ride?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And to Michigan. After we report a desperate father literally running door to door, begging for help to find his little boy, a stunning

turn. We break the news to Dad right here on our program his boy`s alive in Daddy`s basement. As we go to air tonight, the FBI just completing its

forensic child interview of little Charlie. At this hour, sources say police insist they will press for felony child abuse and/or neglect charges

on little Charlie`s dad and stepmother. Arrests to follow?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have not done anything wrong to my son.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why this 12-year-old boy ended up in the basement for 11 days is about to land on the desk of Wayne County

prosecutor...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you have ever have hurt Charlie?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And then we go live to Wisconsin. A sleepover with three 12- year-old girls turns deadly when two of the girls, obsessed with on-line sci-fi stories, fantasy characters found on bizarre Web sites, lure their

12-year-old little best friend to play hide and seek, and then hold the child down, stabbing her 19 times in the heart, liver, pancreas, stomach,

all in a freaky bid to please a magical creature, Slenderman. Tonight, are the two little girls who stabbed their friend 19 times set to walk free

from juvenile court?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They left their friend for dead, hoping that they could then see Slenderman.

911 OPERATOR: Is there any bleeding going on?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her clothing has got blood on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lured her out into the woods, stabbed her 19 times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctors determine that Morgan Geyser...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. The tragic death of a 22-month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy, but

cops say Daddy`s story doesn`t add up after Daddy breaks down screaming, doubled over in grief when he finds his boy dead in a boiling hot car. But

was the tot actually murdered?

At this hour, we learn detectives retracing Daddy`s steps, and we do the same. Was Daddy`s every move actually caught on camera? And tonight,

we also hone in on Mommy`s whereabouts when her tot dies. And right now, check your clocks. We`re just hours away from a courtroom showdown, cops

retracing Daddy`s every step.

Let`s go straight out to show we do the same, following along in the cops` footsteps. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE DUFFY, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (voice-over): Justin Ross Harris left the "treehouse," the satellite Home Depot office where he worked as a

Web developer, at approximately 4:16 on the afternoon of June 18th.

This is the route that Harris would have driven as he left his office. Along the route, Harris would have passed through seven traffic lights.

Each of those lights appears to have a camera.

Suddenly, Harris pulled into the Acres Mills shopping center. He said this was immediately after he realized that his son was in the back seat.

Our recreation of this drive took just under four minutes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: OK, we go in the steps of police and retrace Daddy`s footsteps. We also tonight hone in on Mommy`s whereabouts when little

Cooper dies seemingly in the back of a hot car.

First, straight out to Haisten Willis, reporter with "The Marietta Daily Journal." Haisten, this ride from the Chick-fil-A to where he parked

the car was only one minute and 20 seconds. What do you make of it?

HAISTEN WILLIS, "MARIETTA DAILY JOURNAL" (via telephone): Well, it`s a short ride if there`s no traffic. But that`s a very, very busy area.

Any time during the morning, people are going to work. (INAUDIBLE) off of the interstate. It may have taken him at least three or four minutes in

that time, which is to me significant.

GRACE: I agree. Extremely significant. Out to Mike Duffy, who, on our staff, went in the steps of the police to retrace Daddy`s movements

that morning. Mike Duffy, how many stoplights between work and Chick-fil-A and other points significant to this case, including the pizza parlor?

DUFFY: Yes, well, Nancy, between the Chick-fil-A and his place of employment, there`s exactly one traffic light, but there are many cameras

in that area. Now, from his place of work to the pizza place where he says he tried to resuscitate the boy, there are seven traffic lights and

multiple cameras.

GRACE: OK, what`s significant about that -- Haisten Willis, "Marietta Daily Journal," is here you go. Here`s what we see today. In the last

hours, we traced his steps, along with police. All of those red lights, Haisten Willis, have cameras on them.

Do they show Daddy in the back -- looking back at his son? Do they possibly catch the boy as he points out one red car after the next? Can it

be honed in NASA-style to determine even if the boy`s eyes are open at the time he`s driving along to work? All of this matters.

The child is awake at Chick-fil-A, Haisten. Is he awake when Daddy gets out of the car and leaves him to bake? Also, at those intersections,

Haisten, are there other drivers? Tell me about the intersections, Haisten Willis.

WILLIS: Well, if there`s just one, there may not be too much information there. What I would like to know is the -- if he went back

there at noon, around lunchtime to check on the back seat, or to check on the car, if he may have looked in the back seat at that time to look at the

child.

GRACE: And Mike Duffy, let`s talk about those seven stoplights on the way to the pizza parlor.

DUFFY: Yes, Nancy. This is a very busy area. Like we said, there are many cameras. Now, they`re positioned in a bunch of different angles.

There`s a shopping mall in the area. There`s a transit hub. There are many opportunities for cops to be able to piece together this route and

find out exactly what happened that day.

GRACE: And that`s not all. Joining us right now out of Raleigh, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Ben, I want to talk about possible

internal GPS tracking inside Daddy`s Hyundai Tucson (ph). Also, can iPhones be tracked of (ph) the movements? In addition to that, the

possibility of pings, if Daddy was texting or calling at that red light. How can we track his every movement?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, the cell phone`s going to be pretty valuable because police do this every

day. It`s called historical cell phone analysis. Every time you...

GRACE: It`s called what?

LEVITAN: Historical cell phone record analysis.

GRACE: OK.

LEVITAN: The police are using this every day. They subpoena the records of his cell phone. Any time you make a call, receive a call, send

a text or receive a text, your location is recorded. But that`s only about a -- to about a square mile or so.

GRACE: OK, to a square mile.

LEVITAN: What`s more valuable is the GPS. It`s going to be about one square -- the cell phones record what cell tower you use.

GRACE: Right. OK...

LEVITAN: ... and generally -- yes?

GRACE: Generally what?

LEVITAN: Generally, that`s going to cover about one square mile. So when the police identify you as being in a certain location, they can`t

pinpoint you. They can just say you`re in an area about one square mile.

GRACE: Now, in other cases...

LEVITAN: From the cell phone.

GRACE: ... we have been able to pinpoint tracking the whereabouts down to one city block. And I`m wondering if that can be done here.

Unleash the lawyers, Dwane Cates, Peter Odom. Peter Odom, just take off your defense hat for just one brief moment, and let`s analyze this

thing. Think back to the days when you were a felony prosecutor, Peter Odom.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK.

GRACE: Now, why is it so significant that police -- and we`re following in their footsteps -- are tracing Daddy`s movements that morning.

Why?

ODOM: Two things. One that you mentioned, Nancy -- they want to see if they see anything in the car, see the kid or see him looking back.

Secondly, they`re trying to corroborate, or alternatively, defeat his story.

GRACE: Because if they find him, based on what we`re talking about -- internal tracking, historical cell phone analysis, pings -- if he goes

somewhere else different than what he has told the police, Dwane Cates, he is in a heap of trouble.

That`s what`s happening right now, everybody. As we prepare for a courtroom showdown in less than 17 hours, police are analyzing this data to

present it tomorrow at a probable cause hearing.

What about it, Dwane Cates? If we find out that he veered off and went sightseeing, then he`s in trouble.

DWANE CATES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, and you know what? If we find out that he didn`t, is he not in trouble then, Nancy? I mean, you know,

they have this charge first, ask questions later mentality. I mean, out here in Arizona, I mean, unfortunately, kids die in the car all the time,

and very rarely are murder charges brought. And you know, and in this case, they brought the charges, and now they`re asking all the pertinent

questions. They could have done a thorough investigation before charging this man with murder of his son.

GRACE: How do you know they didn`t? Put him up! You know, I have just about had it with defense attorneys...

CATES: We just went through all the stuff that they did!

GRACE: ... attacking the district attorney, Vic Reynolds, for bringing these charges because you know what? If he hadn`t brought the

charges, somebody would be screaming, You`re not doing your duty. Now everybody`s whining about him having a probable cause hearing tomorrow,

where he`s going to lay out the facts that he has to to get this case indicted.

Everybody`s saying, Why not have a grand jury hearing in secret? Now, I guarantee you, you two, if the DA had had a grand jury hearing in secret

tomorrow instead of this open hearing, you`d be whining and crying about, Oh, he`s having a hearing in secret. That`s not fair. You know what? You

want your cake, you want to eat it, too. Well, I`m not having it! I want to get...

Hold on. Out to the lines. Hi, Yvonne. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just curious if there`s an insurance policy on this little boy. I mean, both Mom and Dad are looking

into how a child will die in a car in the heat? So there`s got to be something behind it.

GRACE: Let`s get back to the basics. Haisten Willis with us from "The Marietta Daily Journal." He`s right there in the midst of all this.

Have police been able to uncover any money motivation in this? Is there a life insurance policy? Because both parents insist that they innocently

looked up, quote, "the temperature needed for a child to die in a hot car." What do we know, Haisten?

WILLIS: If there`s an insurance policy on that child, we will find out during tomorrow`s court hearing.

GRACE: You`re absolutely right about that. The hearing is set down to go down in what courthouse tomorrow, Haisten?

WILLIS: Courtroom P, right on the Marietta Square downtown.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at the retracing of the steps. Everyone, this is crucial. What police -- and we are joining with the police to do

this -- are trying to find out -- let`s see that video -- is did Daddy deviate from the story he told police? Did he really take the child to

Chick-fil-A, take the child into Chick-fil-A, eat, bring him out and go straight to work? Here`s his path. There are plenty of cameras along the

way. Was his every move actually caught on camera?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

At this hour, the clock ticking down to a courtroom showdown. Daddy claims he left his tot in the car, a baking hot car, while he worked.

Police say it`s one of the most shocking cases they`ve seen, that his story is riddled with inconsistency. Murder, or is Daddy being framed?

The cops in the last hours retrace Daddy`s steps. We follow along. Let`s take a look at the points of interest. Let`s see those screens.

There`s our drive-along. Take a look at this. Hold, please. Maddio`s front entrance. Now, note, the car, Daddy`s car, pulled over on the back

side. That doesn`t mean the father`s trying to hide in the back. We`ve gone to the scene. This is a perfectly normal spot for the dad to pull

over, although it says back entrance.

Let`s advance. Now, remember, there`s about seven stoplights between Daddy`s work and Maddio`s. Every one has a camera. Dad pulls over there.

There`s less traffic there. It`s the back entrance. Is that significant? Did he pull away from where cars were parked so fewer people would see him?

Seemingly, no.

There you see another shot. There`s a surveillance camera we find as we go to air tonight. That`s where Daddy pulled over. There`s the back

entrance. Employees saw him pull over, take the child out of the car. Did the surveillance camera catch it all? Maddio`s back entrance -- that`s

where Daddy pulls over. This is what we`ve learned in the last hours.

Also, Mike Duffy, you go to every one of these stores, every storefront. What did you learn? Had police gotten the employees before

you did?

DUFFY: Well, Nancy, it certainly seems that way. I made it a point to go up to every employee and ask, you know, if they had seen this

incident, what they think about it, and they all kind of shied away, said that they weren`t supposed to talk about it, and -- but what I did find out

is that they seemed to consider it a very hectic day. And some people even went so far as to say that perhaps the dad was acting a little erratically,

walking around, pacing back and forth.

GRACE: So you learned that, as well.

OK, back to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. You know, these surveillance cameras -- one on the outside. Every store has them on the

inside. How much can we count on them? I personally think there should be legislation that they can`t roll over their video. That happened in the

Chandra Levy case, making the surveillance video almost useless. What do you think, Ben?

LEVITAN: Nancy, generally, the most common cameras out there have a seven-day hard disc on it. Basically, every seven days, it wipes itself

out. So we`re in the timespan. The problem is, in, I would say, 80 percent of cases where we`ve had to go get a surveillance camera, it was

found to be inoperable.

People just don`t check these things. There`s so little need for them, they just -- you know, they put up the cameras, they test them a

couple times, and then they forget about them. At this point, when you need it, you find out it`s not working.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Kelly, Missouri.

Liz, let`s see that video retracing Daddy`s steps very quickly.

Hi, Kelly. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, hon. I`m a big fan of yours, Nancy.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know, if the father went outside on his lunch break, like he claimed he did, how in the heck could he not

notice his baby? You know, he went outside to his car on his lunch break. How could you not know your baby is back there? You know, he`s not in a

big bus -- I mean, not a big vehicle. It`s a small car.

You know, and first of all, how can anyone not know that child -- they put that child in the car to begin with that morning? You know, it`s

horrible, horrible and horrible. You know, they need to put these parents in a hot car because I believe the mother`s just as guilty as that father

is.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Speaking of the mom, we are also -- we are also retracing her possible movements that morning. Was she working that

morning? We don`t know yet.

Let`s see the map. How does it relate? Because Mommy`s movements are going to be traced, as well. Ben Levitan, is this isn`t just about Daddy,

it`s about Mommy, too. Now, what about their texts to each other, if those can be reconstructed? If they`re deleted, if they`ve deleted their texts,

Ben Levitan, can they be regenerated, can they be recreated?

And very quickly, Haisten Willis -- let me hold for Ben Levitan -- do we expect this cell phone and retrieval data that we have obtained to be

introduced in court tomorrow?

WILLIS: Yes, we do. What we`re hearing is police will have to present a lot of evidence and show a lot of their -- a lot of their cards

tomorrow in court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. At this hour, prosecutors now constructing a case to present. In less than 17 hours, in a court of law,

a probable cause hearing will be held in that courthouse wherein the state will lay out a bare-bones case as to why they have chosen to prosecute this

man in the death of his toddler boy, Cooper, just 22 months old, apparently baking in a hot car while Daddy worked inside at Home Depot.

Michael Christian has taken a meticulous look at the search warrants, what we know has been obtained by police, as we do a ride-along, following

in police footsteps, retracing Daddy`s movements that morning.

Michael Christian, I find it extremely interesting and possibly probative that they look in the car and take measurements. How can

measurements prove a case, inches and feet? Also, I learned they seized Cooper`s carseat. Why?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. You know, with the measurements -- this is a small SUV and

it`s going to be pivotal in this case, how far that back seat, that child seat is from the front seat, because that certainly makes a difference

about what Justin Ross Harris would or wouldn`t have seen. They also checked the inside of that SUV for fingerprints, blood, DNA, hair and

fibers.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Did you just say blood?

CHRISTIAN: Fingerprints, blood, DNA, hair and fibers, according to the search warrant.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner, pathologist joining me out of Philly tonight. Dr. Manion, if the child had died of

heat stroke, would you expect to find blood or vomit?

DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): I may see vomit with aspiration of vomit, but I would not

expect to find blood. That`s not one of the autopsy findings.

GRACE: What do you mean by aspiration of vomit?

MANION: The child would vomit when he`s in extreme discomfort, extreme suffering, and then as he breathes in, he breathes the vomit down

his trachea, into his lungs.

GRACE: Dr. Manion, with heat stroke -- the temperatures were in the 90s that day -- how long would it have taken the child to have heat stroke

and die?

MANION: I think within 30 to 60 minutes. The temperature in that car would rise very quickly, and once that child reaches 107 degrees, that`s by

definition heat stroke and you`re basically cooking your brain. There are specific autopsy findings in heat stroke, including right-sided cardiac...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait a minute! I`m just a JD, not an MD. What? What did you say?

MANION: Well, there are -- there are specific findings. The right side of the heart will be dilated, meaning the right atrium and right

ventricle. You`ll see hemorrhage inside the heart, the lining of the heart inside, and venous distension in the veins in the brain.

It`s like the veins are dilating, trying to give off heat. It`s one of the mechanisms the body uses to give off heat. The peripheral veins on

the outside of the body will dilate and will try -- will sweat. And the baby was probably panting also in an effort to get rid of all this excess

heat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. At this hour we are preparing for a courtroom showdown as daddy pictured here comes from the jailhouse to

appear in court. The prosecution laying its case out for the defense to take pot shots at, why, for this case to be bound over, to be handled in a

felony courtroom. Everyone, we are talking about the seemingly hot car heat stroke death of this little boy, 22-month-old Cooper. But police are saying

that daddy`s story is riddled with inconsistencies. We do a ride along following in police steps tracing daddy`s foot steps and go a step further,

tracing mommy`s footsteps as well, the morning her tot seemingly dies in the baking hot car. Straight back to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner

forensic pathologist, joining us at a feeling tonight. Doctor Manion, as you were saying?

DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The temperature will rise very quickly in the car and when the temperature of

the body is 108 degrees that will be hyper thermic death basically. And as the body is dying, the veins are dilating trying to give off heat. So,

there are specific pathologic findings at the autopsy. They should also do a drug screen to make sure this baby wasn`t sedated and left in the car.

GRACE: Whoa. OK. All right. I haven`t even thought of that. A drug screen, a drug screen, sedated. What do you mean? Sedated with what?

MANION: Well, perhaps if he was sedated with some kind of a tranquilizer, something to (inaudible) to make him unconscious so that he

wouldn`t suffer. That would be significant finding.

GRACE: Hold on. Defense Journey Peter Odom waving, he`s got a question, what is it Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Dr. Manion, would there be a smell of decomposition or other smell in the car after the child died in this

manner, after seven hours, would you expect to find that?

MANION: That`s a tough question. I`m not sure, to be honest. I certainly think within 12 hours, 24 hours, certainly. But I`m not sure at

seven.

GRACE: OK. So, that could go either way, Dr. Manion. And I had no idea that the right side of the heart dilated. Because I notice in the medical

examiner`s initial findings that he said -- he/she said this was consistent with the death of hyperthermia in other words heat stroke, but I don`t know

why they thought it was hyperthermia. Now I do. Out to the line Samara. Hi, Samara, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

GRACE: Hi dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that these things is whole premeditated considering that the mother was happy and thankful that the

child died and it was for the stupidest reasons, too?

GRACE: You know what, I hear what you`re saying. Unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom, Dwane Cates. At the child`s funeral, coincidentally the child

was buried in a red coffin. He had just come to decide his favorite color was red. When I think of that tiny baby coffin, I can hardly even stand it.

But the mom, Peter and Dwane, you know what, for get the lawyers. Let`s go to the shrink. Dr. Stark, started joining so I called just out of New York.

The mom talks about how happy she is that the child is dead because he`s not going to have his first heart break in high school, he won`t have to

worry about people not sitting with him at the lunch table. OK. I got to say, if my child -- I can`t even say it. I don`t think that I would have

had that reaction, that I`m happy he -- I mean those are the things I want to help my children through when they happen, and they will happen. It

happens to everybody. But to think -- to think of it in those terms that I`m happy the child is dead so he won`t have to endure that, that he won`t

have to endure his grandparents death or his parents` death. I mean, that`s part of life. That makes the happiness in life that much happier.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And it`s a part of growing and maturing, Nancy. You are absolutely correct. It`s the strangest thing that she said

that. I`ve never heard of that before. And if you look at that and then you add that to all of the other things that don`t make a lot of sense,

forgetting the child, not seeing the child in the car, it becomes even more bizarre.

GRACE: OK. Caryn, take a listen to this. This is exactly what she said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEANNA HARRIS, MOTHER: I am happy a list of things my son will skip, his first heartbreak, I won`t have to see that. Junior high and high

school, I didn`t like it, who to sit with at lunch in those awkward middle school years. He will not have to suffer through the death of his mimi and

granddad, the death of me and Ross.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: I mean, you know, maybe people take it a different way but when I hear that, it seems more like he was robbed of all of that, not that he

was spared of all of that. And when those things happen to my children, I want to be there to pick them up when they fall, not be happy that the

child is dead and he won`t endure those things. Let me move quickly to another topic. Michael Christian, you and I have combed through the search

warrants and I find very, very significant wording. What we`re talking about is what`s going to happen in about 16 hours in a probable cause

hearing in which the D.A. will lay out everything they`ve got as to why they charged daddy with this child`s death. Michael, what did you learn in

the search warrants?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There`s several warrants that talk about a search of the Harris home, Nancy. But I think the one you`re

referring to said it was searched for papers, writings, documents, photographs and evidence of child neglect and child abuse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: And, everyone, to Michigan, a stunning turn, when we break the news to a desperate dad right here, his boy is alive in his basement. At

this hour, sources say police insisting they will press for a felony child abuse and or neglect charges on little Charlie`s dad and stepmother. Are

arrests to follow?

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Court records show 12-year-old Charlie Bothuell says he`s been abused. The FBI sat down with him to hear his story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s something there. There`s something their trying to prove.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Court records show the boy was told to hide in the basement by his stepmother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My father would never do anything to hurt his kids.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to CNN Correspondent Susan Candiotti. Susan, what`s the latest?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The latest is that investigators have now wrapped up meticulously putting together a very complete what they

call package of evidence to present to the district attorney who will ultimately decide whether to issue a search warrant. Now, this package that

they`ve put together includes information from the interviews they did with that child, of what that child told child protective services about being

hit with a PVC pipe, disciplined by his father, that they found scars on his body, old scars. That a grandmother said that he looked as though he

was ill with cancer because the boy had lost so much weight since the last time she saw him, that they found bloody clothes in the apartment and blood

on the PVC pipe that I just mentioned. And they will include information from an FBI interview also done with this young man looking for consistency

in what he said. Did he tell the same thing to the Detroit police as he stayed to the FBI? And it seems like a convincing package of evidence

that`s been turned over. But ultimately it is up to the district attorney to decide whether to issue the warrant. And I`m told it won`t be done in a

snap.

GRACE: You know, it`s just so amazing to me that this whole thing started when I heard the father was running door to door trying to find his

child and get help. And now, it`s turned into a case of possible child abuse or neglect. What more do you know, Clark Goldband.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, our CNN affiliate, HLN affiliate is reporting that law enforcement will be recommending charges of

either child abuse or child neglect. This comes from unnamed sources, Nancy, that we hear cannot independently confirm. But if that`s true, we

could be expecting charges soon once the paperwork is transferred. It`s important to note, Nancy, once this paperwork is transferred, prosecutors

may not even file charges if they don`t feel it meets a burden of proof.

GRACE: Hold on just a moment. Let me just try to interpret what you said in the middle of all of that, allegedly, unnamed sources can`t

confirm. I think what you just said is that sources are saying, cops are pushing for child abuse or child neglect charges on dad and step mom.

GOLDBAND: That is what a CNN affiliate is reporting, yes.

GRACE: OK. Charlie Langton, WWJ what more the do you know? When is all this expected to happen? We know that the police have just finished the

child forensic interview on the little boy. I know they`ve gone through the home with a fine-toothed comb, found the bloody clothes, the PVC pipe with

blood on it and statements by the father. So, when will it all culminate in bill or no bill?

CHARLIE LANGTON, WWJ REPORTER: We know that if those charges, if the prosecutor does authorize those charges that there will be an arrangement

whereas the father will voluntarily go in for an arraignment. It`s likely that the charges, as of tonight no charges. Once the police complete their

investigation, it`s pretty much, based on evidence that we have, and we`ve already seen in the other court filing, I believe and so does the police

that there will be charges.

GRACE: Wow. OK. I`m not shocked based on what all I have heard but what I`m shaking my head about is this whole thing started with us trying

to help the father find the child. Charlie Langton, what would be the basis for the charges of child abuse?

LANGTON: The fact that the father admitted to disciplining the child with a PVC pipe. That PVC pipe was investigated by the FBI. There`s blood

on the PVC pipe. Also, little Charlie was examined in the hospital after he was recovered from the basement and there shows scars and a mark of a half

circle which very much looked like a PVC pipe on the child`s chest. You put two and two together, it seems like the father alone will be up on abuse

charges and that`s really without a whole lot of interviews at this point in time.

GRACE: The question still remains, who put him in the basement? Because why would the father force him into the basement to live off of

cereal and soda and then run door to door looking for the child, inviting the police and the FBI into his home, coming on to our show for a grilling.

That doesn`t make sense. OK. Unleash the lawyers. All of these are just allegations. They have not been proven yet. We`re not certain that charges

are coming down. According to Langton, they are. Dwane Cates, you hear the basis for child abuse or neglect. Let me know when the satellite is back

up. Peter, what do you make of it?

ODOM: Nancy, this is a difficult one. But I tell you something, the dad was acting like a parent who had lost his kid. And I think they need to

ask more questions about the stepmother. He was acting truly like a bereaved father.

GRACE: OK. Bereaved, please don`t say bereaved, the boy is alive. Although, we also.

ODOM: But he didn`t know that. He didn`t know that at the time. He though his child might be dead.

GRACE: We also learned tonight, the boy has actually been moved from his bio mom`s house to protect him from the media is what we`re being told.

The boy has been forced to be moved. He can no longer stay at the bio mom`s house. Do I have Dwane Cates yet? Dwane Cates, we`re hearing from Langton

charges are coming down against daddy. Felony charges of abuse ore neglect. What do you make of it? Based on what?

DWANE CATES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I guess they`re going to have to base it on the fact that he used a pipe to discipline his son and again

you`re going to get into the age old argument of is it abuse or is it discipline and there`s a fine line between that and that`s going to be the

argument.

GRACE: Did you say abuse or discipline? Did you just actual say that?

CATES: Yes, I did actual say that.

GRACE: So, you think, maybe, it`s OK to beat your child with a PVC pipe? Do you think that`s discipline? Didn`t I meet your son?

CATES: I don`t know if it is or not that`s up for the court of law to decide.

GRACE: I bet you never beat your son with a PVC pipe.

CATES: I didn`t.

GRACE: Well, that`s good to know. All right. You`re saying it`s up to a court of law. All right. Right now, we`re just trying to figure out are

they going to bring down charges. And again, these are allegations that haven`t been proven. Odom.

ODOM: Nancy, you know, there are states that allow physical discipline of children as long as it`s reasonable discipline. I consider it abuse. I

consider it abuse. I`ve got two kids that I raised. But there are states that see it as reasonable discipline, as shocking as that is.

GRACE: Who sees beating your child with PVC pipe is reasonable discipline.

ODOM: Go talk to the legislatives of the states.

GRACE: Name one.

ODOM: New Hampshire for one.

GRACE: You can beat your child with a pipe in New Hampshire.

ODOM: I didn`t say that.

GRACE: Yes, you did.

ODOM: No I didn`t, Nancy. You`re misquoting me. States allow -- certain states allow reasonable physical discipline.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: And now to Wisconsin as we go to air are the two little girls who stabbed their little friend 19 times leaving her for dead to please a

magical fantasy creature, Slenderman, set to walk three free after transference to juvenile court? Straight out to Dan O`Donnell joining me

from WISN. Dan, if they go to juvenile, they can get off in as little as one year. In the last hours the girls have a hearing, separate hearings to

determine competency, apparently one of them, Morgan Geyser, is going to be deemed not competent to stand trial?

DAN O`DONNELL, NEWS TALK 1130 WISN ANCHOR: That`s right. A doctor did determine that she is mentally incompetent to stand trial. In fact

prosecutors in that case had the relatively rare step of actually asking for additional testing now to determine whether she could raise the defense

of not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. That`s gonna be determined at a later hearing next month.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, with me Peter Odom, Dwane Cates. What this boils down to, gentlemen, they`re claiming that one of them, the alleged

stabbers, Morgan Geyser, let`s see a shot of Slenderman in a bid to please a freaky sci-fi character Slenderman, stabbed their little 12-year-old

friend nearly to death. Morgan Geyser are doing incompetence to stand trial. Anissa Weier so far not raising it. Let`s not kid ourselves,

gentleman. What is this is all about is to get the case transferred to juvenile court. Because in juvenile court they can walk in one year.

They`ve already done over a month. By the time this thing goes to trial were credit for time served, they`ll walk even if they`ll found guilty in

juvenile court, walk free, stab a little girl 19 times, try to get her to bleed out dead in the woods, and you walk free. That doesn`t seem right,

Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It seems wrong to me, Nancy, to have children of this tender age in adult court at all. This isn`t strategy. As

defense attorneys where we believe that our client is not competent to stand trial, we have to raise it. It`s an obligation. Are you kidding me?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Caryn Stark. What`s happening here with these two girls now claiming incompetence, well it`s already claimed incompetency. That simply

means you cannot assist your client -- your attorney at trial. That does not mean you`re insane at the time of the act. Didn`t they plan this for

two months ahead of time, Caryn Stark? How can they be crazy?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: They could plan it, Nancy, and it really does depend -- I mean, obviously planning is knowing the difference between

right and wrong. But are they finding this girl to be delusional? Are they thinking she`s psychotic or hearing voices? I`m not sure what the test

results are. But it`s very strange that they could plan this so carefully unless she planned it in a fantasy world in her head.

GRACE: And, one last thing, let me remind the lawyers, Dwane Cates and Peter Odom, the state may wanna take this to a jury trial on incompetency

which I have done in the past when the defendant claims incompetency. I`m like fine, I`ll get a jury decide that. What about that, Dwane Cates?

DAN O`DONNELL PETER ODOM CARYN STARK DWANE CATES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, jury trial on incompetency generally on whether or not does

she knew right from wrong when she committed the crime.

GRACE: That`s insanity, that`s not incompetency.

CATES: Well, most of the time a judge decides competency. And I guess in that jurisdiction if they can do that, then the state may wanna take it

to that. Now the state, from what I understand, is having another evaluation done, a second opinion, if you will or a third opinion. And you

know, but again, I can`t believe that both girls aren`t claiming incompetency.

GRACE: Well, I think all of this is maneuvering to get back in juvenile court so they can get a one-year sentence and walk free. That`s

what`s happening, everybody. You know what? Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Brian Studer. 28, Ramsey Minnesota,

bronze star, combat action match(ph), left college to enlist. Dream of joining the H.A.L.O. trust nonprofit in removing war debris. Parents Ellen

and Jean, brother Philip, two sisters. Brian Studer. American hero. And tonight, happy birthday to Florida friend Michaela, straight a student,

loves basketball, wants to go to UCONN and happy birthday to Lucille Dent, beautiful. Long time member of her local Methodist church. Happy birthday.

Everyone, thank you so much for being with us. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END