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Nancy Grace
Smell Evidence in Tot`s Hot Car Death
Aired July 09, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, the tragic death of 22- month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking- hot car by Daddy. But was the tot murdered? Damning evidence emerges Daddy is sexting six different women, even sending photos of his erect
penis, as baby Cooper bakes dead in Daddy`s car, evidence baby Cooper scratching at his little face, abrasions found on his head as he bangs back
and forth to escape, screaming out for Daddy.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, police back at the crime scene, recreating Daddy`s movements just before, during and after his baby boy,
Cooper, bakes dead. Not only that, tonight, damning smell evidence takes center stage in the investigation, as we hone in on as of yet unseen photos
of Daddy and his secret Internet double life. At this hour, is baby Cooper`s mother under police surveillance? And why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A foul odor or stench coming from the vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s eyes were half closed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) His tongue was protruding from his mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six different conversations with different women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it have been a painful death?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexual exploitation of a minor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abrasions to the back of the child`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Picture of her exposed breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Oh, my God. What have I done? My child is dead."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Picture of his exposed erect penis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s trying to hyperventilate himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Photos of women`s breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Oh, my God. My son is dead. Oh, my God. My son is dead."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Wisconsin. A sleepover with three 12-year-old girls turns deadly when two of the girls, obsessed with on-line sci-fi stories,
fantasy characters found on bizarre Web sites, lure their 12-year-old little best friend to play hide-and-seek, then hold the child down,
stabbing her 19 times in the heart, liver, pancreas, stomach all in a freaky bid to please a magical creature, Slenderman.
In the last hours, the judge stops a mental evaluation because defense -- the defense can`t decide whether they want to claim their client, the
12-year-old stabber, is insane or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say that`s when Geyser, holding the knife, was told by Weir, Go ballistic. Go crazy. Geyser responded, Don`t worry,
I`m just a little kitty cat, and then began stabbing her friend. The motive, say police, to win the favor of a fictional Internet horror
character called Slenderman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was within a millimeter of...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a young pregnant Marine wife last seen heading out in her Toyota Corolla. Erin Corwin (ph) heads to Joshua Tree National Park
to plan a family outing. Tonight, where is Erin?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The tragic death of little toddler Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy. But was the
tot murdered? Damning evidence emerges as we learn in the last hours, police recreate the crime at the crime scene. Is the mommy of little
Cooper under police surveillance at this hour? And taking center stage, deadly smell evidence, damning smell evidence emerges.
Straight out to Steve Helling, staff writer "People" magazine, and Ninette Sosa, reporter with Newsradio 106.7. Ninette, as we go to air,
police are actually just leaving the scene where they are recreating Daddy`s movements before, during and immediately after the baby bakes dead.
This includes damning smell evidence. What is the smell evidence they are reviewing?
Everybody, you`re seeing video from WAGA, Fox 5 Atlanta, investigators at the crime scene simulating the day baby Cooper dies, baking dead in
Daddy`s car.
What is the smell evidence they`re focusing on, Ninette?
NINETTE SOSA, NEWSRADIO 106.7 (via telephone): It`s going to be to recreate the weather conditions of that specific day. And meteorologists
here say even though they spent seven hours to recreate the situation, that yesterday, there was eventually more cloud cover than on the day when the
incident happened, June 18th. So it was a little bit cloudier. However, it was still a hot day.
So that`s what they`re looking for. They`re just doing heat tests. They`re checking carseats. They`re looking at the temperature of the car,
how long it would take someone to die within the car on that particular day. So they`re testing a variety -- just using an array of items to test
-- instruments to test weather conditions.
GRACE: Right. Everybody, you heard during the preliminary hearing -- pull that sound, please, Liz -- where the stench in the car was
unbelievable. In Justin Ross Harris`s Hyundai Tucson, the stench was absolutely incredible, and the stench was still pervasive at the time
police actually get into the car.
To Michael Christian. What did we learn at the preliminary hearing that`s one of the things police are focusing on at the crime scene right
now?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. And you know, as you remember, he went to the car at
lunchtime. Now, we know from the probable cause hearing that Cooper was very well dead by lunchtime, so there should have been a stench in that car
by noon, let alone 4:00 o`clock or 4:30, when he was driving from work and says he first noticed that his child was back there in the carseat.
GRACE: Take a listen to what happened in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he approach the car at any point at the scene?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About how long after the defendant had pulled over?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over an hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when he approached the car and stuck his head -- did he stick his head in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he did that, was there anything of note that he noticed an hour and 20 minutes after, with the door open?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. There was a foul odor or stench coming from the vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, did you actually access that vehicle later, as well?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why did you do that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We executed a search warrant on the vehicle later on that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you executed that search warrant and you went inside that vehicle hours later, did you notice anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it smelled like -- it was a foul odor. It smelled like decomposition or death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Peter Odom, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, joining us out of Atlanta, Shireen
Hormozdi, defense attorney, joining us, as well.
OK, to both of you. So he gets into the car. He`s going to a movie, he says, although he gives two different stories about that. He tells his
friends he`s going to be late to the movie, but then he leaves early, he leaves work early. It doesn`t fit. But he goes through seven stop lights,
stopping at several of them, when he discovers the baby`s in the back of the car.
Now, take a look. Let`s start the drive. To you, Peter Odom. Watch the clock. This is his leaving work, and he is going to meet his friends
at a local cinema. He gets as far as Uncle Maddio`s pizza parlor. Now, keep watching.
Hours and hours later, police can still smell the stench of decomposition, of baby Cooper`s body actually decomposing in the confines
of that Hyndai Tucson. But look, he`s still driving. He hasn`t noticed a thing. What is it, Peter Odom, is his nose stopped up?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There are two ways that he`s going to try and defend against this evidence. First of all, he`ll try and claim
that the smell didn`t start until after the child`s body was lifted off the carseat.
GRACE: Whoa! What? Wa! Wa-wait! Whoa!
ODOM: Right.
GRACE: What? How can that be? Why would...
ODOM: Because part of the smell was feces, Nancy, and the smell was decomposition. If you were listening at the hearing, they noticed
lividity. That means blood that had started to coagulate or accumulate...
GRACE: They said rigor.
ODOM: ... in the -- well, they said rigor, but they also said that the blood had started to accumulate on the backside of the child. That
might mean, might indicate or he might claim that the decomposition smell didn`t start until after the child was removed from the carseat.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on! When the cops first got to the scene - - if you want me to play back prelim testimony, I will. But when the cops first got to the car, that`s right after the dad says he sees the baby in
the car, he realized the baby is in the car, they smell decomp then.
ODOM: No, no, no.
GRACE: Nobody has said a word about feces!
ODOM: Nancy, as I understand the testimony, they didn`t reach into the car and smell that until an hour and 20 minutes afterwards. And so he
can still claim...
GRACE: An hour and 20 minutes after what?
ODOM: After the car -- after the car was stopped. And so he can still claim...
GRACE: The baby`s out of the car!
ODOM: Correct. And that`s when he`ll claim that the smell started.
GRACE: But what you`re saying doesn`t make sense because if they can still smell it an hour and 20 minutes later, it`s still in the car, and the
car door is hanging open, of course there was a stench when Daddy was in the car an hour before.
ODOM: Well, that`s your argument.
GRACE: Moving the child does not create the smell. And by the way, there`s no evidence so far that the child defecated or urinated. We are
talking about what happens when a body dies.
ODOM: The officer said at the hearing that it smelled like feces. So we`ll wait and see what that evidence shows. But Nancy...
GRACE: You know, I heard him say that it smelled like decomp. I missed the feces part.
ODOM: He said that, too. He said that, too.
GRACE: OK, Shireen Hormozdi, how is the father going to defend himself against the fact that seven hours later, you can still smell the
stench in the car, but he`s -- look, he`s still -- he`s still driving, Shireen! He`s still driving. Three minutes have passed. What, he hasn`t
noticed the car smells like death?
SHIREEN HORMOZDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a tough hurdle for the defense. But in and of itself, his failure to smell it or not noticing it
doesn`t mean he intentionally left the kid in the car.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go out to a special guest joining us tonight, Dr. - - oh, wait. Wa-wait. I`ve just got to stay on this. Look at this! Three minutes, 15 seconds have passed.
Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, joining us. Before I get into the specifics of this, why the body smells upon decomposing -- if you could
smell the stench in the car seven hours later -- please! Are they trying to tell me he couldn`t smell it when he got in the car? It`s over 100
degrees in that car. The baby`s probably been dead since 10:00 AM.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Here`s the truth. It was probably both early decomposition and feces, both. And
why did he not know it? There`s no way he couldn`t know it. What we probably will come to find is he knew it smelled so bad because he planned
it, and he knew it was going to smell bad because this whole thing leads to an encouraged asphyxiation, and he knew the body was going to be there and
he knew the baby was going to be dead, and he knew that the whole time he was driving and he had to smell. Couldn`t have missed it at all.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. In the last hours, police are leaving the scene where baby Cooper bakes dead in his father`s car. They`ve been
out there almost all day long, recreating the scene.
Let`s see a shot of police there at the scene. This is just in the last hours, everyone. They set up a tent. They went to the exact same
parking spot that the father, Ross Harris, parked in that day, grassy area on one side, another car already parked on the other side of him. There
was no doubt no one would come up to the car and see baby Cooper as he died, based on that parking spot.
There you see what we have all seen today, police back on the scene, recreating the crime. And taking center stage is the damning smell
evidence that has now emerged. You`re seeing video from WAGA Fox 5 Atlanta, investigators at the scene simulating the day baby Cooper dies.
Back to Dr. William Morrone. Why exactly does the body, as it decomposes, create this horrific stench? And is there any credence in what
defense attorney Peter Odom just said, that the smell only was created when they lifted the child up and took him out of the car? That doesn`t even
make sense to me.
MORRONE: There are five stages of decomposition -- fresh, putrefaction, black putrefaction, fermentation and then dry decay. All of
the gases that are made in decomposition that come from the early stages are volatile. That means they`re up in the air. They`re giving off small
molecules. Spermine (ph), spermadine (ph) and putresine (ph) are given off.
And it`s very, very essential in this recreation, everything you know about human decomposition goes out the window because this is in an oven
scene, in the car with all that heat. In every other decomposition, the body temperature goes down as the body becomes the same temperature as the
environment. In this case, the forensic science behind this is going to have to show that the temperature went up, which is the exact opposite.
So I disagree respectfully with Mr. Odom. There`s going to be some stool there, but that`s going to be gases formed in the body, and they`re
going to be released. And when you move that little body, it`s going to release even more gases from the early stages of decomposition.
GRACE: You know what, Doctor? I am looking at baby Cooper right now, and it`s so hard for me to reconcile what you`re saying about this tiny
baby boy`s body decomposing until all the officers on the scene could smell the stench of decomposure with this little angel.
Everyone, in the last hours, police are back at the scene recreating the crime the day baby Cooper bakes dead as damning smell evidence is
emerging. Of course, this isn`t the first time smell evidence has come into court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad.
You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sprayed Fabreeze in the car. Was it because of the unimaginable stench from that car, correct?
ANTHONY: Correct. There was an odor in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It stunk like nothing you had ever experienced in your life, isn`t that correct?
ANTHONY: At that time -- at that time, no. At that time, it was the worst thing I had ever smelled in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After seven days in the trunk, we decided to see what the pizza was like. Basically, all the moisture is gone. It`s got
the consistency of shoe leather. And you got to get really close to smell anything. And the only smell you can smell is pizza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Channel 9 managing editor Joel Davis (ph) volunteered his car for the experiment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you opened it up every day and looked at it or...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About every other day, I`ve taken a look at it. You know, for the first day, the first day or two, when you opened up the
trunk, Steve, you would have a smell of pizza from the trunk. But after that, nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never a rancid odor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No smell whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six different conversations with different women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities shattered Justin Ross Harris`s image as a faithful husband and loving father, portraying him instead as a man
yearning to be single and involved in on-line relationships.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justin Ross Harris used a messaging site to sext women on the day his son died in a hot SUV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Describes himself as a married man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (on-camera): And on the flirting Web site and smartphone app, Scout (ph), under the name R.J., are three profile photos.
All appear to be Harris -- "Just looking to talk. Message me. I`m harmless. Yes, I`m married."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At her son`s funeral, she said Ross is and was and will be, if we have more children, a wonderful father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harris sent lewd text messages and explicit photos to multiple women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An alternative lifestyle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got this whole second life that he`s living with alternate personalities and alternate personas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he loved his son all the time. He said his son was very important to him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It shows that he was unhappy with his life. That`s more evidence that he wanted a change in his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was his joy. This was his pride. He was very proud to be Cooper`s daddy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The dichotomy of the public Justin Ross Harris and the private Justin Ross Harris -- we dig deep. And boy, what we find!
Straight to Kyle Peltz, our producer. Kyle, what did you learn?
KYLE PELTZ, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, we combed the Internet and found that this guy was all over social media.
GRACE: Wait! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! What is a selfie with the urinal in the background? Did you find that?
PELTZ: Yes, he was on a social media dating site called Scout. He was posting pictures of selfies in front of a urinal. He has a Flickr
account, as well, which is a photo site on social media. He`s posting even more bathroom selfies (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: I notice he cuts his wife out of the pictures in the things he posts on line.
PELTZ: But we noticed that he was posting a lot on a site called Reddit, Nancy. Less than 24 hours before leaving his baby in a car to die,
he was passing time, complaining about restaurants raising their prices. And he has a lot to say about abortion, telling the on-line world, in his
words, that, "Sex is scientifically designed for one thing, and that`s to reproduce. Does it feel good? Yes. But that`s just a side effect. And
if you can`t support children, don`t have sex. Don`t have abortions."
Those are his words. And this is along with tons of other posts, as well as other accounts on sites like Pinterest and Flickr.
GRACE: OK, what I don`t understand -- and here`s a guy that`s sexting and trying to hook up with six different women, sending photos of his naked
penis, and he`s telling women he doesn`t believe in abortion while he`s soliciting casual sex. I`m not getting into abortion, good/bad. But what
I`m saying is it`s pretty ironic for him to be posting all of his theories that are anti-abortion while he`s the one out trying to have casual sex,
sending photos of his penis to a teenager.
You mentioned something about a Scout account where he says, "I`m harmless"?
PELTZ: Yes, he had a Scout account. He says on his account that he`s harmless. He says he`s married. And this is where he`s posting all of
these photos in the bathroom, the urinal selfies, as well as multiple photos of himself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A foul odor or stench coming from the vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s eyes were half closed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) His tongue was protruding from his mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six different conversations with different women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would it have been a painful death?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexual exploitation of a minor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abrasions to the back of the child`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Picture of her exposed breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Oh, my God. What have I done? My child is dead."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Picture of his exposed erect penis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s trying to hyperventilate himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Photos of women`s breasts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Oh, my God. My son is dead. Oh, my God. My son is dead."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. Thank you for being with us. For those of you just joining us, police are just leaving the crime scene,
where they have spent the day recreating the day little Cooper baked dead in his father`s car, exploring every single detail of that death. Out to
Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine. Steve, you have spoken to people very close to the wife, Leanna Taylor Harris, who is now coming
under very close scrutiny. What did you learn?
HELLING: Interestingly enough, as of last winter, she was hoping to have more kids. They weren`t on birth control. She said, if it happens,
it happens. What she wanted was an even number of children, so that each child would have someone to play with. That was just as recently as
February and March. By May, she had changed her tune and said to the same friend at church that, you know, this isn`t the time right now for us to
have kids. So something happened to change her from wanting all these babies to suddenly not wanting any more. We`re not exactly sure what that
was. But that happened sometime in the middle of the spring.
GRACE: OK. As you`re talking, we`re taking a look at Lianna Taylor Harris from a small city in Alabama, Steve Helling, Demopolis. Now, she
meets her husband, Ross, at the University of Alabama. He`s working there and going to school there. She`s going to school there majoring in food
and nutrition. We`re looking at her in the preliminary hearing. What I`m hearing you say, Steve Helling, is that she was very anxious to add to her
family and talked about it frequently and in-depth with co-workers and friends, but then suddenly in May all that changed and she said pointblank
at church, this is not the right time for us to have a family. Okay. Very interesting regarding whether or not she is under police surveillance at
this moment. Take a look at her at the preliminary hearing. Joining me is Aaron Brehove, body language expert and senior instructor in body language
and the author of "Knack: Body Language." Aaron, you have carefully observed her in court and Ross Harris. What did you determine?
AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: I have. There`s been a lot of discrepancies with what`s happening here. If we start with Justin, first
we hear him make the statement I dreaded how he would look speaking about Cooper. He said he immediately noticed and pulled over the car, and he
shouldn`t have had time to dread how he would look. The decomposed body. He didn`t even know if he was dead yet. He only should have known he was
dead when he actually saw him. So there`s a little inconsistency there.
We move over to Leanna, and we see -- we watch her during this trial and watch her during these couple of hours here and she`s chewing gum, a
little nonchalant, which may be her baseline. The only time she seems to picks up any anxiety is we see her take some deep breaths when the police
sergeant starts talking about her. This is where another red flag is, as well as all of the other red flags where you see that she said he must have
left her in the car, immediately says that. She also said to her husband that, did you say too much? And then what was the other thing?
GRACE: When I look at her body language, Aaron Brehove, she doesn`t look surprised at anything she`s hearing. Nothing. In fact, she looks
bored.
BREHOVE: Exactly. And potentially this is her baseline. It doesn`t look to be. This doesn`t look to be a typical person`s baseline. She`s
chewing gum and she`s just nonchalant about it. She picks it up a little bit. It`s the difference you want to look for when you think about body
language, and when she has the anxiety, she takes a deep breath. Wait. They`re talking about me? Then she takes a deep breath and sits back and
then she`s a little interested and a little bit nervous too, it looks like.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a former friend of Justin Ross Harris joining us from Birmingham. Chris Wilkinson is with us. Chris, thank you
so much for being with us.
CHRIS WILKINSON, FORMER FRIEND: Thanks for having me, Nancy.
GRACE: Chris, when did you learn about baby Cooper`s death and the charges against your former friend, Justin Ross Harris?
WILKINSON: I guess the next day actually after it happened. Oddly enough I posted on Facebook the story, and at that point names hadn`t been
released. There was quite a lively conversation on my Facebook page about it.
GRACE: Now, when you first learned that baby Cooper was dead, what was your immediate reaction?
WILKINSON: I wanted to throw up. I just -- you know, that was really indescribable. A child has died and died in that horrible, awful manner.
But to describe it accurately, I just wanted to throw up and be sick.
GRACE: At first you believed that Ross was being portrayed wrongly.
WILKINSON: Yes.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
WILKINSON: The Ross Harris I know is not the Ross Harris that looks back at us from the TV screen rocking back and forth in his chair at the
defense table. The Ross Harris I know is a good guy, a responsible, good father, prideful father and a kind person. So the disconnect there is so
vast and drastic that it`s really kind of hard to make the correlation in your head that this is actually one and the same person.
GRACE: Well, what are your -- as a longtime former friend, what is your analysis and your reaction to the facts as they are now emerging?
WILKINSON: Obviously like everyone else I`m disturbed, blown away and upset by it all. To have a baby pass in that manner is unthinkable and
then, you know, I`m sure I was as shocked as everyone else that had come to support Ross in court that day at his bond hearing when the detective
started testifying about the sexting and all that had gone on and the fact that it had gone on while Cooper was in the car, you know, it`s just
unconscionable, really.
GRACE: What can you tell us about he and Leanna having fertility problems and getting pregnant to start with?
WILKINSON: He never discussed it personally with me. There were posts that alluded to it on Facebook, and then when they got pregnant with
Cooper, they were very excited about it. When Cooper was born, you know, there was a post with his little picture like most proud new parents have,
you know, that gave his weight and his height in inches and whatnot. It was a sweet little picture. Everyone was very happy for them.
GRACE: Everyone, speaking of the constant texting. We`re all wondering did he do that on his work computer there at Home Depot? Wasn`t
there a net nanny within the corporation like other big Fortune 50 companies? I mean, did they know or did he simply have his personal laptop
open there sitting right out for him to use the whole day he was at work. Joining me is Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Ben, you pointed out
something very significant about one of the websites he goes to. Scout.com. What is it and what`s the significance, Ben?
LEVITAN: This is really interesting. Scout.com, this is a San Francisco social media site. The unique thing about this is it provides
other users your exact location. So this is intended for people maybe -- it was an adult website. It`s a social media website where maybe people
are in a restaurant and they`re all using this and they want to flirt with each other, it`s meant for adults.
GRACE: I don`t understand what you`re saying. I don`t understand what you`re saying, Ben. What do you mean like, people in a restaurant are
flirting with each other over scout.com? Why don`t you just go over to the table and say something to somebody? I don`t understand what you`re
saying.
LEVITAN: Maybe that`s a new generation. You and I would do that, Nancy. But imagine if you want -- this is an application that lets people
not only text each other, but text people and let you know where their location is.
Now, what that means is if we go subpoena his Scout account, every time that he sent a message to somebody, we are going to know his exact
location. This is as good as GPS tracking. We will know that he was sending these messages from the car. We will know he was doing it from his
office. So this is going to be important evidence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to Wisconsin. A sleepover with three 12-year-old girls turns deadly when two of the girls lure their 12-year-old little best
friend to play hide-and-seek. Then stab her 19 times in a freaky bid to please a magical creature, Slenderman. In the last hours, the judge
actually stops a mental evaluation of one of the girls because her defense cannot decide whether they want to claim their client, the 12-year-old
alleged stabber, is insane or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Geyser is charged as an adult in the stabbing of a classmate 19 times, allegedly to please the fictional character,
Slenderman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any bleeding going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her clothing has got blood on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left her out in the woods.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stabbed her 19 times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the defense struggling to make up their mind about insanity?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re talking about this. I hate to even look at it now. This is Slenderman. A freaky sci-fi fantasy creature. The only way you
can go to live with him in his magical castle is to kill people. Dan O`Donnell, anchor, reporter with News Talk WISN. Let me get my head around
this. So last time we talked about this case, Dan, the judge allowed the prosecution to go forward with an insanity examination on one of the
defendants. But now the judge stops the exam because the defense can`t decide whether their client is insane or not. Let me rephrase that, Dan
O`Donnell. Whether they`re going to use that as a defense. They can`t decide whether they`ll try to tell a jury that she`s insane or not.
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN: That`s it exactly. They initially raised the possibility of a defense of not guilty by reason of mental disease or
defect, that is what we call it here in Wisconsin. But in a motion they say, well, we don`t know if that`s going to be our defense, and now we
don`t want this mental exam because it could potentially violate the little girl`s rights against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Shireen Hormozdi and Peter Odom, you know, let`s just break down what Dan O`Donnell has just said to us. What
he said -- let me put it in street language for all civilians listening tonight. Is the defense, when you claim insanity, you basically say, yes,
I did it, but I was crazy. So now they`re saying, no, no, no, no. We don`t know if she`s crazy or not, we don`t know what kind of BS we`re going
to tell the jury, she`s crazy, she`s not crazy, and we don`t want the exam, Shireen Hormozdi, because if you have an insanity competency type exam,
you`re basically saying on insanity, I did it but I was crazy. That statement can come into court. If they later decide not to use insanity,
the state will have that statement. Everything the girl says about the day that she stabbed her little best friend 19 times to death for Slenderman.
That`s what he`s saying.
HORMOZDI: Nancy, as her attorney said, she might not be even competent to stand trial, and before that`s addressed, they can`t have her
have an exam where she might say things she doesn`t know what she`s saying, she may not understand the importance of being candid during the mental
exam.
GRACE: You mean the importance, Peter Odom, of being honest in the exam?
ODOM: Nancy, when you choose the insanity defense, you paint yourself into a corner. You say I did this, but I did it because -- as you suggest.
GRACE: Is there an echo in here? I just said that.
ODOM: If I could answer the question, Nancy.
GRACE: Please do. Quit repeating what I just said.
ODOM: What they`re doing is what a good defense attorney does. They are keeping their options open.
GRACE: They`re trying to decide --
ODOM: Which defense to use.
GRACE: What story they`re going to tell the jury.
ODOM: What is the best defense for her.
GRACE: I like the way you cleaned that up. Dr. Caryn Stark joining me, a psychologist out of New York. Caryn Stark, this is all BS. That`s a
legal, technical term. What they`re really saying is, Judge, we haven`t decided what bogus story we`re going to tell the jury. We haven`t decided
what we`re going to claim if she`s insane or not. We don`t want her to have this exam and divulge what happened that night. Because that might
come back to bite her in the neck at trial, that`s what they`re saying.
STARK: Yes, they are saying that. I wonder how much the family had to do with the fact they`re not going ahead with that defense and wanting
her not to be stigmatized for the rest of her life. However, they`re looking for some way to try to defend her. You can tell that, which is why
they`re investigating this.
GRACE: Caryn, don`t you think her lawyers know by dealing with her day in and day out whether she`s insane or not? I mean, Caryn, when I had
truly insane defendants, they were trying to pull their eyeballs out of their eyes. They were smearing feces all over their jail cell. I mean,
you knew they were crazy. So I think that the defense lawyers are making a mockery of people that really do need to use the insanity defense. We
haven`t decided if she`s crazy or not.
STARK: It seems that you are right, Nancy. They seem pretty desperate to me that they are really trying to figure out a way to defend
this kind of a crime, which people keep wondering how could they possibly do it. Is she insane? And of course they don`t want to get stuck with
that so they are making a mockery, they are going back and forth trying to figure out what`s the best way to defend her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live, a young pregnant Marine wife last seen heading out in her Toyota Corolla. Erin Corwin heads to Joshua Tree National Park
to plan a family outing. But as of tonight, still no sign of the pregnant mom. What has become of Erin? Pat Lalama, Investigation Discovery, what
do you know?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: This is unbelievable. First of all, Nancy, let me just tell you what her mother says. Her mother says
this young lady gets lost all the time, is not very adventurous. She had to force her to get a driver`s license at the age of 18. Yet she`s going
to Joshua Tree National Park. Have you ever been there? It`s 30 miles from the Marine base where she lives. It`s triple digit temperatures, it`s
rough terrain. Inhospitable critters. No one has a clue. The car not found near the park, found near the base. So you tell me.
GRACE: Wait a minute, Pat Lalama, you`re telling me that the car has been recovered? What was she supposed to be doing? Let`s see some shots
of Joshua Tree National Park, Liz, because it`s out in the middle of nowhere.
LALAMA: That`s right.
GRACE: What were you telling me about the car, Pat?
LALAMA: Her Corolla was found closer to the base. Two days later. Let`s just backtrack. She goes ostensibly at 7:00 in the morning on
Saturday, June 28th. Her project is to go scout some locations to bring her mother, who is coming to visit from Tennessee. She tells her husband,
this is according to the husband, the Marine corporal, yes, I`m going to go out to Joshua Tree by myself, at 7:00 in the morning, I`m going to take
some pictures, and figure out where it is I might want to take my mother once she gets here. He does not call the police until the following day,
and then the car is found two days later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search is on for the pregnant wife of a Marine corporal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scoping out locations in California`s Joshua Tree National Park to take photographs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know that she is out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Temperatures are rising to over 100 degrees.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it just doesn`t seem real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Pat Lalama, Investigation Discovery. What is the mom saying?
LALAMA: The mom says that it seems odd to her that she would venture out like this. Now conversely, her mother-in-law, the missing young lady`s
mother-in-law, says wait a minute, you know what, this is a terrible accident. She went out there. We`re hoping that we find her. But her
love for my son is just the greatest love of all. There`s nothing suspicious. You`re hearing a little bit of difference from the two moms
involved in the case.
GRACE: Pat Lalama, what more can you tell us? Everyone tip line, 909-387-3589. What more do you know about the facts surrounding her
disappearance?
LALAMA: That she`s three months pregnant, that her husband whom, as I said, did not call until a day later, could not identify the kind of
clothes she was wearing when she left. He`s, let`s just get this straight, he has not been charged and no one even calls him a suspect, although the
police are saying the scenario is rather suspicious. They won`t say what they found in the car and they won`t say what they found in the home. And
the Marine corporal is saying that he is not allowed to be involved in the search by the way, but he`s staying close to the base in case they need
him.
GRACE: Everyone, the tip line, 909-387-3589.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Sergeant Jaime Gonzalez, Jr., 40, Austin, Texas, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon.
Also served the Navy. A building in Afghanistan named in his honor. Parents Jaime Sr. and Maria. Two brothers. Three sisters. Widow Erica,
four sons, two daughters. Jaime Gonzalez Jr. American hero.
Everyone, thank you for being with us. What a night in American justice. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern.
And until then, good night, friend.
END
