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Nancy Grace
The Boxcar Behind Accused Kidnapper`s Home; Black Widow to Walk Free?; Girl Asks for Help, Was Shot Dead
Aired July 31, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, New Hampshire. A school girl, Abby, walking home from school, vanishes without a trace. The case
cracks wide open when a letter`s mailed to Abby`s mother from Abby. But is it for real?
In the last days, Abby found alive, emaciated, pale, and at this hour, still no confirmation as how she was kidnapped in broad daylight. Was the
child held prisoner in this shipping container for nine long months? The storage box on the alleged kidnapper`s property, 34-year-old white male
Nathaniel Kibby, surrounded by crime scene tape tonight.
Bombshell tonight. Investigators in bomb disposal suits with biohazard boxes dismantle this shipping container, reportedly found with three
separately created rooms, all soundproofed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators are searching the shipping container on his property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The metal storage container...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some describing it as an above-ground bunker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement telling us Abby was held against her will, the circumstances, quote, "chilling and scary."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And then a Florida beach beauty marries her dream man, the newlyweds set to live happily ever after until death do they part. But
what the 26-year-old beauty didn`t plan on is the hitman she allegedly hires to murder the groom is a cop. That`s right, the cop stings the bride
on video! She breaks down, hysterical tears, crying over her dead husband just hours after she herself puts the special finishing touch on his
shooting death. And it`s all caught on undercover surveillance video.
Well, in the last hours, the "black widow," Dahlia Dippolito, set to walk free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come here, please. Come here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m positive, like, 5,000 percent sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a lot tougher than what I look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And a Dearborn girl, dazed from a car crash, knocks on a neighbor`s door for help. What does she get? A shotgun blast to the face. Tonight,
the 55-year-old man who shoots the girl dead claims it was an accident. Oh, wait! No, he changed that story. Now he`s claiming self-defense.
Well, in fact, he was so scared of the little girl knocking on his door, he opened the door wide enough to point a 12-gauge shotgun through it and pull
the trigger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Boom, boom, boom, boom!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Banging on his door in the middle of the night...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Wafer shot and killed 19-year-old Renisha McBride.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catastrophic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they found no evidence that anyone tried to break in that night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Boom, boom, boom, boom!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from ABC`s "GMA."
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To suburban Conway, New Hampshire. A school girl, Abby, walking home from school, vanishes without a trace. The case cracks
wide open when a letter mailed to Abby`s mom from Abby. But was that for real?
Well, in the last days, Abby found alive, emaciated, pale. And at this hour, we still don`t know how she was kidnaped in broad daylight. Was the
child held prisoner in this shipping container nine long months? A storage box on the alleged kidnapper`s property, 34-year-old white male Nathaniel
Kibby, surrounded by crime scene tape.
And in the last hours, investigators in bomb disposal suits with biohazard boxes dismantle that container. Reportedly, tonight, we learn they find
three separately created rooms, all created by Kibby, all three of the rooms soundproofed.
Straight out to Jack Heath with "New Hampshire Today," WGIR. We understand that there are three separate rooms in that container. One is, like, a man
cave, where he does repairs and creates things, a mechanical area. Another room is an indoor shooting range? And I can only imagine what the third
unit is for where he held Abby.
JACK HEATH, WGIR (via telephone): Well, Nancy, good to be with you. I can tell you that they`re still looking here at his Gorham, New Hampshire,
property. I don`t think it`s crystal clear yet if she was held there for the full nine months in that unit. She well could have been held in the
adjacent motor home. There are other questions. But they`re certainly continuing the investigation.
Kibby is in prison, Carroll (ph) County jail, class B kidnapping felony for now, $1 million cash bail. And the probable cause hearing is August 12th,
where, presumably, the affidavit will be unsealed.
GRACE: Jack, what we are understanding is this storage box, the type that`s put on the back of freight trains, situated behind his mobile home,
was specifically redesigned by Kibby on the interior of it, which is all soundproofed, according to our sources. And they don`t come like that, all
right? It had to be soundproofed.
HEATH: Right.
GRACE: It`s soundproofed. And one of the rooms that he created in the storage box is an indoor shooting range.
HEATH: Right.
GRACE: The second is a man cave for repairing things, creating things. I mean, we know he was a machinist where he worked. And the third portion of
the container is where he apparently held Abby Hernandez for a period of time.
Jack Heath joining me from WGIR. What was his job as a machinist? What did he do for a living before he was laid off, Jack?
HEATH: Well, he`s worked in the service industry in North Conway years ago. He worked at, I believe, a local gun business in nearby Gorham. I
think he`s done different jobs throughout his career...
GRACE: Did you say a gun business?
HEATH: What`s that?
GRACE: Did you say a gun business?
HEATH: Yes, I believe he worked at a gun shop recently nearby. He definitely was known to have shotguns on his property. He was a gun owner.
It`s just not clear if Abby was held in that storage container the entire time...
GRACE: Right. I know. I heard you say that...
HEATH: ... or was she allowed...
GRACE: ... the first time!
HEATH: ... to go into the neighboring...
GRACE: What I`m trying to find out is about the third portion of this storage container where he allegedly held the girl. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Nathaniel Kibby is sitting in a New Hampshire jail, accused of felony kidnapping in the disappearance of
Abigail Hernandez, prosecutors saying he confined the now 15-year-old girl with the purpose of committing an offense against her. What offense is
still unknown. According ABC affiliate WMUR, Kibby kept a storage container that some are referring to as an above-ground bunker in his back
yard.
Officials say a traumatized Hernandez, who family says is malnourished and unable to eat solid foods, is now helping investigators piece together
clues to understand where she has been.
Kibby`s neighbors are shocked, wondering if Abby was held in that storage container all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everybody, that info from ABC`s "GMA."
Joining me right now, a special guest, Joseph Drago, owner of New England Soundproofing. Joseph, thank you for being with us. Joseph, there at New
England Soundproofing, I don`t know if you`ve ever had the task of soundproofing a container, a shipping container like this. But what would
you have to do?
Clearly, Kibby, Nathaniel Kibby, would have the ability to do that. He`s got a background as a machinist. He has worked on this storage container
for a very long time. In fact, tonight, there`s even reports that there`s an underground tunnel from the storage container to, I guess, the mobile
home, to the road. We don`t know about that, where it goes yet.
But what would he have to have done to soundproof this thing so his neighbors could not hear Abby Hernandez in there or could not hear him
practice shooting in there?
JOSEPH DRAGO, NEW ENGLAND SOUNDPROOFING (via telephone): Well, hi, Nancy. There`s basically materials that is available that is specifically made to
block and absorb sounds and different types of sounds.
From what I`m hearing, there was three rooms. One of the better ways is what they call a room within a room, which that means is creating one or
two other walls in front of the exterior walls. Then there is various mask (ph) material, which typically, on an everyday usage, could be as simple as
multi-layers of sheetrock and then insulation within the cavities between the walls.
We also have, professionally, thinner materials which we call it sound barrier which is a very heavy vinyl material that you can conceal the
ceiling, the floor, the walls, make it airtight, which works very, very efficient, that is actually strong enough to even reduce gunshots fired.
And then the final one would be acoustics within the room to muffle the screaming or the talking within the room itself. And that can be done by
as simple as thick carpeting, cushions and even mattresses. It is quite (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: You know, Mr. Drago -- everyone with me, Joseph Drago from New England Soundproofing. How long would it have taken him to soundproof this
shipping container that many people believe he held Abby Hernandez in for this period of nine months?
DRAGO: Oh, it won`t take long at all. I mean, a shipping container is not very large to begin with. And when you divide it into three rooms, each
room is quite small. So it really doesn`t take much.
The heavy material comes in a roll, which is manageable. It`s quite heavy, but it`s definitely manageable. It should not take him long to do. You
know, he could have used some help to do it, but you can definitely do it by yourself.
GRACE: To Michael Christian, on the story. Michael, what can you tell us about reports that there`s allegedly an underground tunnel leading from
this bunker, this shipping container he had out in back of his mobile home?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, we can`t say whether it exists or not, Nancy. But we can definitely tell you that
authorities have been asking neighbors whether they have seen any sign of it or would have any knowledge of such a tunnel.
They`ve also asked neighbors if they`ve ever seen the defendant out in the back yard digging or burning something. And it turns out, last November,
one neighbor reported that, yes, he did see Kibby out in his back yard burning something, and he thought it was kind of strange because it was
that time of the year, so he actually videotaped it. But after a while, nothing happened, and so he just erased the video.
Nancy, I can also tell you, just a few moments ago, we received some more information from another neighbor. And that neighbor said that police have
removed a blue Honda four-door car from Kibby`s property on a flatbed truck and that officials from the New Hampshire Department of Fish and Game have
been down in a little creek behind Kibby`s house for about two hours today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators searched Nathaniel Kibby`s home and a shipping container on his property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the mystery, how Abby was held and what happened to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kibby answering to a felony kidnapping charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI still searching Kibby`s property, including this red storage container in his yard.
ZENYA HERNANDEZ, MOTHER (via telephone): I can tell about what I felt when I received the letter from Abby.
GRACE: OK, tell me that.
HERNANDEZ: (INAUDIBLE) I was exhilarated (ph). I was devastated for a whole month before that because I did not know what happened to her. And
she vanished. And so I didn`t expect this. I received a letter, and then I realized that, Wow, you know, maybe it`s from Abby. And I felt just
(INAUDIBLE) and, I`m, like -- it was, like, Wow, you know? It was the best thing I`ve ever received, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Abby`s mother speaking with us.
Everyone, for those of you just joining us, Abby Hernandez, Abigail Hernandez, walking home from school, kidnapped in broad daylight, missing
for nine months. We now believe that she was kept in a storage container, a boxcar of sorts, behind the property of 34-year-old white male Nathaniel
Kibby.
We are taking your calls. Out to Michelle. Hi, Michelle. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, hello, Nancy. Can I please ask -- my thought is that, could she have had problems or a disagreement with her parents,
and then unfortunately, she ran away from home?
GRACE: Absolutely. Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Danny Cevallos and Kirby Clements.
You know, Kirby, it`s absolutely possible that she was having difficulty with her mom. The dad`s not in the picture. I think he lives somewhere
else -- single mom raising her. She`s a teen, a young, young teen, then 14 years old when she goes missing. Of course, she`s going to have
disagreements. I have disagreements with Lucy, and she`s 6 years old. So naturally.
But at her age, she doesn`t have the ability to consent to being taken and living in a boxcar. I mean, let`s just cut through the crap, Kirby. You
know this girl didn`t want to live in a boxcar. That had to be against her will.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I have to say, I don`t know that. At this point...
GRACE: Really?
CLEMENTS: ... I don`t think she lived...
GRACE: You think she might want to live in a boxcar?
CLEMENTS: I`m not saying she lived in the boxcar.
GRACE: Behind Nathaniel Kibby...
CLEMENTS: There`s no evidence she lived in the boxcar.
GRACE: ... gun enthusiast`s mobile home?
CLEMENTS: She could have run away from home. People run away and live on the streets. Who wants to live on the streets? So we don`t know what the
situation was. She walked away. She vanished. It didn`t seem like...
GRACE: You don`t know she walked away!
CLEMENTS: ... there was foul play. There`s no evidence she was dragged screaming away. We don`t have that evidence.
GRACE: Well, she doesn`t have to be dragged screaming away for it to be a kidnapping!
CLEMENTS: That`s true.
GRACE: In fact -- well, OK, that`s a step forward. I got Clements to agree with me on something.
As a matter of fact, to you, Cevallos -- you don`t have to drag anybody kicking and screaming away. Under the law, under asportation (ph), you can
move somebody from this room to the next room and hold them there, and that`s kidnapping. The distance is irrelevant in a kidnapping case, is it
not, Cevallos?
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That part`s true. That`s classic bar exam. Asportation can be one foot, three feet, it
doesn`t matter. But you raise a more important issue, is -- you just talked (ph) -- that caller brought up that she may have run away. Now, we
know that legally, there`s very little difference when you have a minor involved.
But Nancy, what will a jury do if there is evidence out there that there were repeated problems in the home and this child ran away? Even though
there`s very little legal distinction, emotionally...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) you two?
CEVALLOS: ... the jury will look at her as a different person.
GRACE: My goodness! Look at all those booking photos of Nathaniel Kibby! Wow!
CEVALLOS: What`s that have to do with it?
GRACE: He`s certainly been a busy boy. Take a look at all that! I guess, everybody, you know this means every one of those is a separate arrest.
You know what I would do?
Put up Marc Klaas for me, joining me out of San Francisco tonight, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation.
Marc Klaas, there are very few examples in our criminal history where young girls have been taken and kidnapped and held this long and they live.
There`s Jaycee Dugard. There`s Elizabeth Smart. There`s Ariel Castro`s many, many victims.
This is a miracle this girl was found, number one, that she is alive. And I think, Marc Klaas, if you put it to a jury, Hey, ladies on the jury, do
you want to live in a boxcar, a soundproofed boxcar behind this nut`s mobile home? You think that was consensual, Marc Klaas?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: No, of course it wasn`t consensual. And even if she had run away, Nancy, that`s irrelevant. Children that run
away find themselves in very difficult situations on a regular basis. They become victims of human trafficking. They become hostages, as this girl
very well may have done. And any attempt of this guy to keep this girl against her will is a crime. And whatever it is he had in mind by keeping
that girl is most likely a crime, as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Breaking news. In the last hours, we learn the alleged kidnapper of a then 14-year-old school girl, Abby
Hernandez, apparently had soundproofed this boxcar on the back of his property where he was allegedly holding the little girl.
Joining me right now, Chris Perley, former Conway police lieutenant, arrested Kibby many times. And Mr. Perley, we also learned that they are
processing it in -- with biohazard and bomb gear. They don`t know if the thing is booby-trapped. They don`t know exactly what they`re finding.
But you have knowledge of Kibby. You arrested him many times, is that right, Mr. Perley?
CHRIS PERLEY, FMR. CONWAY POLICE LIEUTENANT (via telephone): Yes, I did, Nancy. Great to speak with you again. I had many dealings with him both
as an arresting officer, and then later as my tenure as the district court prosecutor. I had dealings with him both as a criminal defendant, as well
as a crime victim. And because he lived in the area, our paths would cross and I did see him in, you know, public settings, as well.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing the multiple shots of Nathaniel E. Kibby.
Mr. Perley, I don`t want you to comment on the current investigation. I know that`s an ethical dilemma for you. But were you surprised when you
found out that he would be arrested in this case?
PERLEY: You know, Nancy, I`ve been asked that question by a number of journalists, and I would say, really, my -- the emotions that I felt were -
- one was happiness for the success of the various law enforcement agencies that have been working tirelessly on Abigail`s case. I felt relief as a
career law officer, as well as a community member, that there was some forward movement on resolution of the case.
But I also felt sadness. You know, I`ve known Nate Kibby since he was 12 years old, and I`ve seen the worst of him. I`ve also saw him when he was a
young man. He had a nice girlfriend that worked at a dry cleaner I used to utilize. And we would often talk about how he had kind of turned his life
around. He had a good job as a machinist. He was living with this girl named Angel. And you know, he was proud of the fact that he was becoming a
productive member of society. And as a community police officer...
GRACE: Well, Mr. Perley...
PERLEY: ... that`s encouraging.
GRACE: We`ve been doing a little digging on Mr. Kibby.
And Michael Christian, what we found out is very disturbing, that as far back as, like, the 7th grade, he was terrorizing other people at his
school, at his little middle school or high school, leaving them notes that, If you ride the bus today, I`m going to kill you, according to them,
taking other classmates smaller than him out into the woods and beating them, according to them. Is that true, Michael?
CHRISTIAN: Yes, Nancy. That`s according to a classmate named Randy Waldron (ph). He said the very first day they met, which was the first day
of 6th grade, that Kibby took him out into the woods and, quote, unquote, "beat the crap out of me."
He also -- and this is very interesting. He described Kibby as, quote, "a sexual deviant." He said he was a talented sketch artist who was always
obsessed with girls with dark hair but drew them with their hands tied behind their back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. A Florida beach beauty marries her dream man. The newlyweds set to live happily ever after until death do they
part. But what the 26-year-old bride didn`t plan on is the hitman she hires to murder her groom is a cop.
That`s right. The cop stings the bride on video. Well, in the last hours the black widow, Dalia Dippolito, set to walk free?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities say Dalia Dippolito tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband.
DALIA DIPPOLITO, TRIED TO HIRE HITMAN TO KILL HUSBAND: I`m positive like 5,000 percent sure. Come here. Please come here. Why not? I didn`t do
anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard you.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Appeals Court tosses out the conviction and says that Dalia Dippolito is entitled to a new trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. She`s caught on video and some appellate court has reversed the conviction. The black widow, Dalia Dippolito, who first started trying
to kill her husband in his Starbucks Chai tea with poison. She finally hires a hitman.
You know what, one picture is worth 1,000 words. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Dippolito?
DIPPOLITO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
DIPPOLITO: No.
GRACE: OK. That`s the other cop just looking on. Oh, yes. He knows the deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need you to take her to the station.
DIPPOLITO: Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to help your husband you need to go with them. Tell us everything you know about who he knows, who he`s connected
with.
DIPPOLITO: Please. No. No. No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Did you notice that the police are not exactly acting sympathetic? As Dalia Dippolito breaks down in hysterical tears,
practically bends over when they tell her, her husband, her brand-new husband, her groom, is dead.
Now watch this. Now look at the cop. Keep watching them. They`re like oh, look, look, look. Look at them. Because it`s all set up. He`s still
alive, and she`s busted, OK? All the cops are just staring at her as she breaks down when they say, "Your husband`s dead."
Now listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it`s not done by Wednesday then I`ll call you. If it`s done by Wednesday, the only thing you`re going to hear from me is to
collect, all right?
DIPPOLITO: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which is why I said that between now and when it`s done, you know, you`re not going to have an option to change your mind.
Even if you change your mind --
DIPPOLITO: No. There`s no changing -- no, there`s no, like, I`m determined already.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You definitely want to do this.
DIPPOLITO: I`m positive, like 5,000 percent sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
DIPPOLITO: Like, I was stressing when you told me you were going to come up and then I`m like looking at the time, I`m like, what the (EXPLETIVE
DELETED), he`s not coming, here`s not this. You know what I`m saying?
Stuff or whatever, like no, when I say I`m going to do something I`m going to do it. Like as soon as you told me listen, I need the money from you, I
went, I grabbed it right away, like we were good to go. Like with me you`re not going to have a problem, you`re not going to have an issue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I just want to make sure that, you know, this is what you want, all right? So, you`re sure you want to kill this dude?
DIPPOLITO: Do we really have to --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
DIPPOLITO: You know, it`s just, I`d rather be less, you know whatever with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right.
DIPPOLITO: I`m a lot tougher than what I look. I know you`re thinking you`re like oh, what a cute little girl whatever. You know?
(LAUGHTER)
But I`m not. I`m not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you are. You`re extremely beautiful.
DIPPOLITO: Thank you but you know, I just need to make sure everything is going to be taken care of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She`s caught on tape paying $5,000 to have her husband killed.
OK. Out to investigative reporter with "Discovery," Pat Lalama.
Pat, what happened?
PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, first can I just say covering Hollywood she does not get an Oscar for that abysmal performance? But
aside from that, here`s what happened. All that footage that you see, it made YouTube. This was an international sensation of interest. Everybody
saw this. So when it came to voir dire and they were questioning the jurors, the defense said to the judge, hey, we think that these jurors know
so much, have heard so much we want to be able to individually question them.
The judge said no, we can do it in a group. Then secondly, one of the potential jurors stood up and said hey, I read somewhere that maybe she
tried to poison him. Well, that was a separate incident which was inadmissible. So now an appellate court says based on those two things
they get to start all over again.
GRACE: Everybody, more on the black widow set to walk free. But I want to give you an alert. Crime fighters Kelly Seigler and Yolanda McLeary from
TNT`s "Cold Justice" need your help finding a missing military mom.
New Mexico, 27-year-old Margie Pointer drops her 5-year-old boy at the babysitter. Last seen at breakfast with a mystery man at Holiday Inn. A
white Nissan Sentra found abandoned in the parking lot, keys and purse inside. Seventeen years later, landscapers find her remains 20 miles from
home.
Tonight still no suspects ever brought to justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Margie Pointer walked out the door of that Holiday Inn she left us with no DNA evidence and no cause of death. The
statute of limitations for second-degree murder has run out. So our job this week is to see if the evidence warrants a first degree murder element
of deliberate. And find the person who killed Margie 27 years after her death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you have info call Crime Stoppers USA, 1-800-222-TIPS. And see TNT`s "Cold Justice" Friday 9:00 p.m. Eastern.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The black widow, Dalia Dippolito, tried several times to kill her husband, finally hiring a hitman to kill her new groom.
Isn`t it true, Clark Goldband, she was a hooker?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: She was an escort, Nancy. In fact, her husband at the time said that he met her the first
time as an escort. And I say husband at the time because I can now tell you, Nancy, that divorce has been finalized. He is no --
GRACE: OK. I don`t know why you keep saying escort, escort, escort. That`s a hooker, Clark, all right? So the answer would be yes.
Everybody, we`re talking about Dalia Dippolito who tried several times to kill her husband.
Joining me right now, her appellate attorney out of Winter Park, Robert Sirianni. Also with me, the woman who prosecuted Dippolito, Elizabeth
Parker, author of "Poison Candy."
Elizabeth Parker, can you believe she`s caught on tape hiring the hitman. Then they go through all this drama catching her or telling her your
husband`s dead. And she carries on, acts like she`s about to pass out. It`s all on tape for Pete`s sake. And the case is reversed? She`s getting
a new trial?
ELIZABETH PARKER, PROSECUTED DALIA DIPPOLITO: Nancy, I`m not only surprised, I`m extremely disappointed in the ruling of the appellate court.
I respectfully disagree with the decision. The strength of the evidence against Dalia Dippolito was stronger than any case I have ever seen. It
was overwhelming.
GRACE: You know what, I`m stunned. And here`s the kicker. In that jurisdiction, Elizabeth Parker, are the appellate judges elected or are
they appointed and they`re in for life? How does that work?
PARKER: In the Fourth District Court of Appeals, they are appointed.
GRACE: Are they in for life, Elizabeth?
PARKER: They can be voted out by the public.
GRACE: Wow, appointed, wow, OK.
Joining me now Robert Sirianni, Jr., the appellate lawyer for Dalia Dippolito, also known as the black widow.
Hey, Robert, no offense, but I advise you not to have coffee or tea with your client since her husband`s Chai tea from Starbucks was poisoned.
That`s who your client is. What`s your argument on appeal? How did you convince them to order her a new trial?
ROBERT SIRIANNI JR., DALIA DIPPOLITO`S APPELLATE ATTORNEY: Thanks, Nancy, for having me on the show. I think you and Miss Parker as well as all the
viewers can agree that every citizen in this country is guaranteed certain constitutional protections. And those start from day one of the trial. In
this case, the errors that occurred happened on day one of the trial during jury selection. And Miss Dippolito was afforded -- the appellate court
afforded her one more chance to have a new trial based on those constitutional violations.
GRACE: OK. I think what you`re trying to tell me is that when the jury panel of about 54, 58, 60 people were asked, have any of you heard about
this case, one lady raised her hand and went oh, yes, isn`t she the one who tried to poison her husband? Is that what you`re trying to talk about,
Sirianni?
SIRIANNI: Well, at one point the -- one of the jurors mentioned that. From that point forward in the trial the jury was tainted, they were
prejudiced. They could have been looking for that evidence during trial when it certainly was certainly inadmissible and not even present.
GRACE: You know what?
SIRIANNI: And Miss Dippolito`s attorneys, they asked for a new trial or asked the --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Wait, Sirianni. Sirianni. Sirianni.
SIRIANNI: -- to discharge the jury. And the court --
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. I`m not an appellate judge. You don`t have to convince me. I`m just telling the people what happened. So your argument
is that even though she`s caught on tape hiring the hitman, you still think that that question that the jurors heard when the lady answered oh, yes,
didn`t she try to poison her husband, you think that swayed them? You don`t think it was the video that did the trick?
SIRIANNI: Sure, no. It was the -- it was the role of the media and the influence it had on the trial situation.
GRACE: OK. All right. OK.
SIRIANNI: The case was lost from day one based on the public opinion, the sentiments that were during -- present during the jury selection.
GRACE: OK, yes is good. Yes is good.
Robert Sirianni Jr., Elizabeth Parker joining us.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," weigh in.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think that there was probably already enough evidence that was shown in court
that any pre-publicity did not sway the jury. But I think it`s interesting that she was a hooker. Because what that tells me is that he was a mark
from the very beginning. A small mark.
He started out as a $1 bill or a $500 bill and then he grew into a $300,000 bill for her. Meaning that she kept upping the ante in terms of what she
imagined she could get from him. Because I think he had a big life insurance policy and some assets, and she thought she could get those if
she killed him.
GRACE: What about it, Clark?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, it`s important to add that she was originally sentenced to 20 years on this conviction that`s now been tossed. The maximum for
what she`s charged with is actually 30 years. So it will be interesting to see maybe they --
GRACE: OK. Clark, thank you for telling me all that since it`s all house arrest, who cares. But Clark -- put him back up again.
Clark.
GOLDBAND: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: When they get her on video crying and carrying on that her husband`s dead.
GOLDBAND: Yes.
GRACE: Where is the husband? And what happens after that?
GOLDBAND: Well, he`s at the police station, Nancy. And the big reveal occurs at the police station. And that`s when it appears Miss Dalia
Dippolito seems a little confused.
GRACE: So she sees her husband alive. What`s her defense to that?
GOLDBAND: Well, Nancy, it came out in court that the defense was she thought it was part of a reality TV show, and he was allegedly trying to
further a career in reality television.
GRACE: OK. I`m going to let you mull that. But right now "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN PABLO ROMERO FUENTES, CNN HERO: My country`s violent history has created a very violent present. Gangs are everywhere. Kids are exposed to
drugs, to violence, and to the lack of opportunities for them to improve their lives.
I was a teacher in the same community that I grew up. My students were dealing with the same problems that I was dealing 20 years ago. I wanted
to change that. The best thing for me to do was open my house doors and bring them here.
Eight years later, I`m still running the program in my family house. We provide classes so they can find their own passions. We give them a decent
plate of food.
Children are powerful, just they don`t know that yet. So I created a safe place for them to realize that they totally can change that aspects in
their lives and their community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life was getting dangerous for me and my family because I was involved in illegal activities. I was transformed at Los Patojos.
Now I`m a leader.
ROMERO FUENTES: In a violent country the only weapon we can have, it`s love. I still believe that we can change this country. I see potential in
kids` dreams and ideas. They are the ones in charge of writing the new history in Guatemala.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To Michigan, a Dearborn girl dazed from a car crash, knocks on a neighbor`s door for help, what does she get? A shotgun blast to the face.
Tonight the 55-year-old man who shoots the girl dead claims it was an accident -- wait, he changed that story. Now it`s self-defense. Right.
Self-defense.
He was so scared of the little girl knocking on his door that he opened the door wide enough to point his .12 gauge through it and pulled the trigger.
Joining me at the courthouse, Alexandra Field, CNN correspondent.
Alexandra, I understand that Werner Spitz finished up. What else is happening in court?
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right. Well, they called in another expert down. This one is a firearms expert. The defense is
basically trying to do two things today. They want to advance this theory that Renisha McBride was trying to break into the house and that`s why
(INAUDIBLE) was afraid for his life, went to the door with a shotgun and shot her in the face.
So they called two people, first is Dr. Spitz, he was talking about photographs taken at the crime scene, specifically pictures of Renisha
McBride`s hands. One of those photos, you`ll see blood on her left hand. What does Dr. Spitz say? Well, he`s a forensic pathologist who says that
is a sign that there was a cut on her hand, that the cut was bleeding. He says that he`s looked at pictures of both of her hands, that both of her
hands were swollen and that indicates that she was knocking or banging on Wafer`s doors, maybe his windows, maybe his house moments before she was
killed.
They`ve also brought in another firearms expert to --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa. Whoa. Wait. Wait. Hold on.
FIELD: Yes.
GRACE: I want to throw that, Alexandra, to Dr. Joye Carter, chief medical examiner, author of "I Speak for the Dead."
Dr. Carter, what does that mean about the hand?
DR. JOYE CARTER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it doesn`t necessarily mean that there is an injury to the hand. The blood could have gotten on the
hands from injury to the face, from the body being in a body bag being transported. And unless the hands are cleaned and photographed on both
surfaces, you can`t say there`s an injury there.
Also the hands may not be swollen. They could be pudgy. I don`t -- you mentioned the woman`s height or weight but just to put everything into
context. That`s something that has to be done to be neutral.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A teen knocks on a neighbor`s door for help and gets a gunshot blast.
Alexandra Field, CNN correspondent joining me at the courthouse. What happened with the ballistics experts?
FIELD: All right. Well, they got this firearms expert. He was in there today and he was trying to make the case or he was called to testify that
the screen door, the screen was already out of place. This is key because again it goes back to the defense`s argument that Renisha McBride was
trying to get in.
So what he does is he does a demonstration for the courtroom. He says that based on his analysis of Renisha McBride`s shotgun wound, she was just
within two feet of the end of the barrel of that shotgun. And given that measurement this expert testifies for the defense that the screen would
have already had to have been popped out of place in order for the shotgun to fit between Theodore Wafer and Renisha McBride at the time she was shot,
Nancy.
GRACE: Right.
Alexandra Field, thank you.
Let`s stop, everyone, and remember, American hero, Army Sgt. 1st Class David Nunez, just 27, LA, Silver Star, Bronze Star, three Army Commendation
medals, a Green Beret on his second tour. Parents Julian and Sylvia, brother Renee serving the army, fiance Cynthia, son David Jr. and Julian.
David Nunez, American hero.
Everyone, someone special here to say good night to you tonight. My sweethearts, John David and Lucy Lynch.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.
END
