Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Michael Brown Bullet Wounds Examined
Aired August 19, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. After nine nights of extreme violence, the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart, tear gas --
Molotov cocktails -- after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the street en route to his grandmother`s, bombshell tonight. Agitators fanning the
flames of violence in Ferguson. As we go to air, yet another deadly Missouri cop shooting goes down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was Brown charging toward the officer when the fatal shots were fired?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground! On the ground!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or was he backing away?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Texas. A loving father on trial for murder after cops claim Daddy shoots dead the drunk driver who mows down Daddy`s two
beloved sons, ages just 11 and 12. Why wasn`t the drunk driver behind bars to start with?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two sons, both hit on this rural road, killed by the same drunk driver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is accused of taking the law into his own hands, executing the drunk driver.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re only speculating. It`s not right. It`s not fair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live to the heartland. A 27-year-old mother of two children ages 3 and 6, vanishes from the VFW parking lot, last seen in
her silver Nissan Xterra. But tonight, is her kidnapper linked to six other area women now missing?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. After nine nights of extreme violence, the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart -- tear gas, Molotov cocktails -- after an
unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the street en route to his grandmother`s, tonight, agitators, some from out of town, fanning the
flames of violence in Ferguson. As we go to air, yet another deadly Missouri cop shooting goes down.
Straight out to CNN correspondent Stacey Cohan. Stacey, what`s happening, another cop shooting?
STACEY COHAN, FREELANCE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Nancy, we`re just getting information on this shooting right now. And here`s what I can tell you.
It was a 23-year-old African-American male. St. Louis police are confirming that that is what happened.
This is their account of the story. It is the only account I have to report at this moment. They say that he was acting agitated when they
approached, that he started grabbing his waistband. They`re saying that he was clutching a knife and telling police officers to shoot him, shoot him
now.
Now, according to police -- again, this is their account of the situation -- he was approaching the officers, that officers told him to
stand down, to release this knife, that he did not, and at that point, they did shoot. That is the information.
It is about, we are told, three or four miles from the area of Ferguson, which has obviously been the center of protests and violence
following the shooting of Michael Brown, Nancy.
GRACE: With me there on the ground, Stacey Cohan, CNN correspondent. Stacey, yet another cop shooting. This -- I`m going to call him a victim,
because I don`t know the story yet -- apparently had a knife and was brandishing the knife.? Is that correct, Stacey?
COHAN: That is what -- that is the account we have at this moment from police. Nancy, this is obviously a very fluid -- this is a situation
that unfolded recently. So what we`re acting on now is what we are being told by St. Louis police.
We are told that he had a knife, that he was acting erratically, that he reached for the knife his waistband, that he was brandishing it as he
was approaching police officers. We`re told St. Louis police say they had ordered him to drop the knife and that he refused, that he actually asked
the officers to shoot him. Once again, that is their account. And indeed, he has now been shot and killed, 23-year-old African-American man. That is
what we`ve been told (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Stacey, do we know how many times he was shot?
COHAN: We do not have anything official on that. We are told there were two officers involved in the shooting, but at this the point, I have
no information on how many times he was shot or how many bullets were fired.
GRACE: OK, Stacey, do you know if this second cop shooting now that we`re reporting tonight is in connection to the shooting of Michael Brown?
COHAN: I think, Nancy, that`s the question everybody wants to know. I mean, certainly, on the scene -- and I know you can see behind me -- we
have some people that are gathered and certainly talking about the ongoing protests and the concern over the Michael Brown case.
And what people approaching us have been wondering is, Do you know about this? What do you know about this? And at this point, you know,
police-involved shootings, as you well know, happen all over the country. They happen for various reasons.
Is this connected? We don`t know. What we do know is that it is another young African-American male that has been shot and killed. That
has been the center of concern in this community, with this particular shooting of Michael Brown, that there was potential that this was racially
motivated. And I think that`s the concern that you are going to hear tonight once this news spreads out even further.
GRACE: Stacey, question. How close -- how close in proximity is this shooting to the Michael Brown shooting?
COHAN: About three or four miles away, Nancy, so not right on top of the scene, but certainly not terribly far away.
GRACE: OK, everyone, at this hour, we can confirm another cop shooting in Missouri. Is it connected? Is it connected to all the
violence that is tearing the town of Ferguson apart, more people arrested, more shootings going down?
Colin Jeffery joining us, news director, KTRS, joining us there in Missouri, Colin, what more can you tell us? What`s happening in Ferguson?
COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS (via telephone): Well, thanks a lot, Nancy. We`re settling into what appears to be sort of a new cycle of life in
Ferguson right now. Every morning, the residents of Ferguson are out early. They can`t necessarily get to work. Some of their kids can`t get
to school. So they`re out early with trash bags in hand and they`re cleaning up from the previous night`s activities.
Throughout the day, then, we see protesters start to gather, and some time during the evening, we see those protests start to turn violent. It`s
been sort of the pattern for the last over a week, now with the exception of last Thursday. And then the following morning, residents wake up to
clean all over again.
There`s still lots of questions about why exactly Officer Darren Wilson shot Michael Brown that day, and that`s the main point of contention
for those peaceful protesters who gather in the afternoon.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing shots of violence going down. It`s hard to believe that this is happening in our country, in America, on the
streets of Ferguson, Missouri, with violence into the ninth night. Are agitators, some from out of town, fanning the flames of violence after a
second shooting goes down in the last hours? Was that shooting in connection to the Michael Brown shooting?
With me right now, a special guest. Shawn Parcells is with us. Shawn is the forensic consultant who assisted with the private autopsy of Michael
Brown. We are very lucky to have Shawn with us because through him, we are getting an idea exactly the injuries -- exactly of the injuries to Michael
Brown.
Now, so far, all a lot of people have gotten is that chart we keep seeing. Let`s see the chart, Liz, where you see the bullet wounds to
Michael Brown. Now I have with me one of the experts who helped perform the autopsy itself on Michael Brown.
Shawn, thank you for being with us -- Shawn, forensic consultant joining us tonight out of Kansas City. Shawn, I understand -- can I see
the diagram again? There`s been a lot of discussion about whether these wounds are entry or exit wounds. There are six wounds altogether,
according to Dr. Baden, no shots at close range. What can you tell us?
SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSICS CONSULTANT: Well, you`re correct, Nancy. And by the way, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
The big question that was asked yesterday was, in particular, the wound that occurred to this aspect of the right arm and in what direction
could that have been coming from. Understand that the arm is a very movable part of your body. So let`s just say that the -- let`s go with the
first theory, that Mr. Brown was charging at the officer. If I`m running like this, that part of my arm is exposed. So it is theoretically possible
that the shot could have come from the front. Now, let`s...
GRACE: Question. Question.
PARCELLS: Yes? Go ahead.
GRACE: Hold your arm up, if you don`t mind, Shawn Parcells...
PARCELLS: Sure.
GRACE: ... and tell me the entry and exit points on the arm, please.
PARCELLS: OK. Entry here, and the exit right here.
GRACE: On the interior?
PARCELLS: So it`s actually -- correct, on this -- this part of the arm is where the exit came from.
GRACE: OK.
PARCELLS: So it was coming in and coming out right here.
GRACE: All right.
PARCELLS: So if he`s running, that`s one possible theory. The other possible...
GRACE: Running toward the cop with his hand up, or running away from the cop with his hand back in a running motion.
PARCELLS: Back.
GRACE: That could be either way.
PARCELLS: Exactly.
GRACE: OK, that, so bottom line, Shawn, that one doesn`t really help me.
PARCELLS: OK. OK.
GRACE: Because that could be either way. What else do you have?
PARCELLS: OK. So this one to the right upper shoulder is definitely from the front because there`s no way to take this part of my arm and
rotate it to where it`s facing the back. So this one`s definitely from the front. The wounds...
GRACE: OK, let me see him in full, please, so I can see what he`s trying to tell me. So the one at the top right chest, arm -- OK, you`re
saying...
PARCELLS: Right arm.
GRACE: ... the entry is on the front, correct?
PARCELLS: Correct. And the exit came out of the back right here by the armpit. So it`s definitely going front...
GRACE: So that looks...
PARCELLS: ... to back.
GRACE: ... front to back and up to down?
PARCELLS: The -- it was going slightly from front to back, and I believe slightly downward.
GRACE: OK, front to back, up to down, right shoulder. You`re saying shoulder or arm?
PARCELLS: Dr. Baden and I describe it as the right upper arm.
GRACE: Now, what`s significant about that is he`s clearly facing the cop at that time. All right.
PARCELLS: Correct. Correct.
GRACE: What more can you tell me, Shawn?
PARCELLS: The other two critical points, especially the one that I would like to bring up, is the two gunshot wound to the head. And so I
brought a model with me because I think there`s some misunderstanding. Can you see this OK?
GRACE: Yes, I can.
PARCELLS: Just want to make sure. OK. So the gunshot wound to the top of the head -- let`s start with that one first. It was going from top
to bottom, this direction.
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. I thought it was more toward the face.
PARCELLS: Well, I`m starting with the one at the very apex of the head.
GRACE: OK.
PARCELLS: We had one here, and we had one at the eyebrow.
GRACE: OK.
PARCELLS: OK, so the one at the apex is actually going from top to down. But it`s also, if you look at my -- here`s the nose -- you look at
my trajectory, it`s also going towards the front part of the head, OK? Can you see...
GRACE: Go from back to front.
PARCELLS: From back to front, exactly. And the same...
GRACE: That`s an extremely unusual angle.
PARCELLS: The same thing with the one that hits right above the eyebrow. It enters right above the right eyebrow and is traveling at that
same angle. So a question asked to me earlier was, supposedly...
GRACE: Do you have an exit round on the second entry?
PARCELLS: Yes. We have a -- we have an exit wound on this aspect of the jaw, and then it actually continues down and reenters right here at the
right clavicle.
GRACE: Ah. OK, hold on just a moment.
PARCELLS: That`s what Dr. -- OK.
GRACE: So let me see the diagram again, please. So one of the six wounds is actually a reentry, possible reentry, two of them.
PARCELLS: Yes. Correct. This is a possible reentry, and the one that you see on the right side of the chest is a possible reentry. And Dr.
Baden and I...
GRACE: OK. Everybody, with me is Shawn Parcells, and he actually assisted in the private autopsy of Michael Brown. And for those of you
that don`t know Dr. Michael Baden, he`s a renowned pathologist and medical examiner, worked on the RFK case. He, of course, has testified far lot of
defendants that I believe were guilty, including O.J. Simpson and others, but his expertise cannot be questioned.
With me right now, another renowned medical examiner, Dr. William Morrone medical examiner and forensic pathologist out of Madison Heights.
Dr. Morrone, you have studied this case, as well. What do you make of what Parcells is telling us?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): There are two really important things that they produced
yesterday and they talked about today. The number one thing is that the wounds to the head were the last shots in a series, chronologically, to see
how somebody`s either going forward or back, to know that the last shots were the head shots. That could tell a very different story than a head
shot...
GRACE: Now, wait. How can you date a shot? William, how can you date a gunshot wound on a body to tell me which is first, second and third?
MORRONE: That`s what Dr. Baden said in his statement to "The New York Times" yesterday.
GRACE: Yes, I heard that.
MORRONE: (INAUDIBLE) if it goes -- even if it wasn`t the last, if you could put a chronological series of which ones were likely the first shots
and which were the last shots, when you can determine that, that tells a very interesting and different story than the reverse order of the shots.
And the second most important thing is these are going to be interpreted after viewing X-rays and doing forensic analysis for gunshot
residue and other things on the clothes.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa! William, back it up. With me, Dr. William Morrone, and Shawn Parcells, who actually helped perform the autopsy on the
unarmed teen, Michael Brown, the center of this controversy, including another police shooting in the last hours there in Missouri.
OK, Dr. Morrone, as I always said to my doctors in court -- where`s Morrone? First of all, I need to see him.
Dr. Morrone, dummy down. I`m just a JD. You`re an MD. Can you just give it to me in a nutshell, what you`re trying to say, medically?
MORRONE: Yes. What Dr. Baden said about the head shots being the last shots and what we know about gun recoil lifting a gun every time it`s
shot, it makes sense that the earlier the shots started in the arm and went up, and the later shots took a head-based target, which may mean...
GRACE: Dr. Morrone -- Dr. Morrone, you`re losing me at the very beginning. No offense, because I respect you and Parcells immensely, but
you started your whole theory with, If what Baden said is correct. I don`t know, I don`t think Baden knows which shots were fired first. So bottom
line, none of you doctors can tell me what happened based on forensics. Is that what I`m hearing right now?
MORRONE: It`s either the first shot or the last shot in a series. And it`ll tell a different story whether it was the first shot or whether
it was the last shot. And that`s what`s going to tell how it happened. But we need the other evidence. And what`s really important is counting
the gun bullets.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: In the last hours, another police shooting of a civilian in Missouri. This incident seems entirely different, apparently, the young
man brandishing a knife in front of two officers.
Tonight, with me, a very special guest. Shawn Parcells is with us. He actually helped perform the autopsy on Michael Brown.
Can I tell you how significant this is? Whenever I tried a homicide case -- and I tried so many, I don`t even know how many I tried. It
doesn`t matter what all the witnesses say. What matters is what you learn in the autopsy, what you learned forensically. Then you go back and you
try to piece together what all these witnesses say happened. Was it dark, was it light, who was standing here, what angle, because one thing cannot
lie, forensics. They can`t lie. Then you figure out what witnesses are telling the truth based on what forensics are telling you.
Now, let me remind you, Dr. Michael Baden, renowned medical examiner, is working for -- although he didn`t take any money -- the Brown family.
Has that colored his opinion? I don`t know. We probably will never find out until we all go into a court of law. But I know Baden and I know this
about him. He is a renowned medical examiner.
Also with me tonight, medical examiner Dr. William Morrone. Now, Shawn Parcells with us -- Shawn, I want to go through how Dr. Baden says --
and please, show me the skull and explain to me how he can date the shots, which one came first, because I`ve never heard of a way, unless you`ve got
an unbiased witness telling you what happened and you can corroborate that witness, how can you tell what shot was first?
Another thing that was told to me yesterday is that you guys couldn`t tell if it`s an entry or an exit. Now, I`ve pulled up for you shots -- can
I see these, Liz -- of entry and exit wounds on the flesh. There it is on the skull. It`s very easy to tell the difference between an entry and
exit.
But in the skin -- let`s see that shot, please -- entry and exit wounds -- and you know what? There you go. There`s a vast difference when
you look at an entry and exit wound.
So Shawn Parcells, you`re telling me that on this diagram, some of these shots could be reentry.
PARCELLS: Correct.
GRACE: In other words, he wasn`t shot six times, that some of the bullets went in and came out of the body. All right.
PARCELLS: Correct. Correct.
GRACE: You can`t look -- you can`t look at the wound and tell if it`s entry or exit?
PARCELLS: Well, reentry wounds look different from an entry wound. A true entry wound, as long as the bullet does not hit another target before
entering the body, is very round-shaped and is often the same size as the caliber of the ammunition used.
When the bullet comes out -- so this particular wound, where it went through, came out, and reenters. It comes out of the jaw here and reenters
at the right clavicle. The bullet was at that point in time starting to tumble on its axis, so when it went in...
GRACE: OK, you need to show me the skull so I can understand what you`re saying, Mr. Parcells.
PARCELLS: OK.
GRACE: There you go. OK. Go.
PARCELLS: So -- so the bullet -- the one gunshot wound to the forehead travels in a downward direction and exits right here at the right
jawline. Make sure I`m pointing in the right area. And then it goes back in over the right clavicle. When it went back in, that gunshot wound was
more of an odd-shaped, almost slit-like-shaped entry wound because the bullet is tumbling. Instead of going this way, it`s doing this, and it
leaves a very odd-shaped wound.
And that`s why Dr. Baden and I felt that this was over the right clavicle a reentry wound, corresponding to the gunshot that hit the right
forehead.
GRACE: Shawn, let me ask you this. Based on yours and Baden`s autopsy, which side of the story do your forensic results support, the cops
or Michael Brown`s?
PARCELLS: Well, there`s sides to both stories it supports. It supports the story that Mr. Brown could have been charging the officer, and
in particular, the wound corresponding to the right forearm. It also supports Mr. Brown putting his hands up like this, showing that Mr. Brown
was trying to surrender because you still have that part of your arm exposed.
It also supports the other witness statement saying that Mr. Brown was walking away from the officer and jerked his arm as if he was shot, and
then turns around...
GRACE: Right.
PARCELLS: ... because as you know, that part of your arm is facing the back at that point in time. What we don`t know is the reconstruction
of the shooting scene, and that`s what is most important.
And in particular -- and I`d like to really zero in on this point -- in particular, the head shot wounds. And the reason why Dr. Baden and I
feel those came last is because of the angle that they`re going in at. And let me show you what I`m talking about. As you know, as I told you, the
one to the very top of the head is going in this direction, and the one going into this part of the head is also traveling in the same direction.
GRACE: With me, everybody, Shawn Parcells, who is demonstrating what he and Dr. Michael Baden learned in the autopsy of the unarmed teen Michael
Brown.
With me also right now, Daryl Parks. We are fortunate to have him with us tonight. He is the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, I
want to thank you, with your schedule, taking your time to be with us and explain to us from your advantage point what is happening.
As we go to air right now, another cop shooting in Missouri, possibly linked to these protests and these agitators, Daryl, who are fanning the
flames of violence in Ferguson.
Apparently, this cop -- he can`t go anywhere without police protection. They`re afraid he`s going to get killed. It`s out of control,
Daryl. It`s just spun out.
DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, without question, Nancy. I think that you`ve -- you know, it`s very unfortunate, especially the young
man who lost his life today. But we have to, obviously, learn the facts of that situation and what may have happened there.
GRACE: Well, and another thing, Daryl, is I don`t know that I`m all ready to jump in that pot comparing him to Michael Brown because in his
case, if he`s brandishing a knife, Daryl, at police officers, of course, they`re going to shoot him.
So that has really nothing to do with the Michael Brown case, except maybe it was part of some of these protests. And is it true, Daryl, that
agitators, as police are calling them, are actually coming in from other jurisdictions and other states and committing violent acts there in
Ferguson?
PARKS: Well, let me tell you. I was there last night on a set (ph), right there, what we call ground zero. And it was very peaceful, very,
very peaceful. I left there maybe about 10:00 o`clock Eastern time, and by the time I left there and drove to my hotel, I turned the news on, and they
were wearing gas masks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: As violence is tearing a small town of Ferguson apart, as we go to air tonight, another cop shooting. This time of a 23-year-old, young
black male. With me right now, Cedric Alexander, president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. He is the public safety
director. Mr. Alexander, thank you for being with us. What do you make of all of this?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES: Well, you know, it is very easy to make a real
quick assessment on this. I had an opportunity, Nancy, over the weekend, to spend a couple of days there in Ferguson. It is very clear to me and
very evident to myself and to the organization, too, that there has been a lot of distrust, long-standing distrust in a sense of that community not
being connected to the police department. And I think ending up there where you have that level of distrust that is going on, it makes it very,
very hard to negotiate anything else going forward. So that`s going to be one of the biggest things that`s going to have to be challenged in that
community.
GRACE: Mr. Alexander, president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, a report tonight is claiming, and we`re trying
to confirm it, that there are nearly a dozen witnesses that support the police officer`s account, that Brown charged him. So I guess that`s, you
know, half of six, one, half dozen or the other, because about as many reports support Michael Brown`s side, what do you do with it?
ALEXANDER: What you do is you allow an investigation to take place. And I think in all fairness to everyone that`s involved, and I think all of
us in this country and certainly we do hear at NOBLE, we to want see a fair investigation take place, and I am delighted in the fact to be honest with
you that you have the Justice Department and the FBI now running parallel investigations as well too. Clearly because of the lack of mistrust of
local police in their community.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: World famous forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden`s work made headlines decades before he conducted an autopsy on
Ferguson police shooting victim Michael Brown. Baden played a major role in congressional investigations into the assassinations of President
Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He testified as a witness for the defense in the O.J. Simpson double murder trial and in the Phil Spector
case. Dr. Baden gave his opinion on the Beverly Hills drug death of comedian John Belushi. Dr. Baden also performed the autopsy on Drew
Peterson`s third wife, Kathleen Savio, calling her drowning death a homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of controversy about what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pulled up on the side of us, he tried to brush his door open, but we were so close to it that it ricocheted off us and
bounced back to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He slammed his door shut violently, I think he said Michael did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say Brown assaulted the officer before he opened fire. But witnesses here tell a different story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just reached his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck, and was trying to, as he was trying to choke my
friend, he was trying to get away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punches him in the face, and then grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun. At one point, he has got the gun clearly
turned against his hip, and near shoves it away, and the gun goes off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His weapon was drawn, and he said I`ll shoot you, I`m going to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So he stands up, and yells, "freeze." Michael and his friend turn around and Michael starts taunting him. Oh, what are
you going to do about it? You know, you`re not going to shoot me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some witness accounts say Brown was running from the officer and appeared to be surrendering, his hands in the air at the
time he was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He ran for his life, they shot him. And he fell, he put his arms up to let them know he was compliant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air and he started to get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He turns around and puts his hands up like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then all of a sudden, he just started to bum-rush him, he just started coming at him full speed, and he just started
shooting, and he just kept coming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The preliminary autopsy results indicate that Brown was shot twice in the head, four times in the right arm, and that all
bullets entered from the front.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And tonight, lie detectors, a loving father on trial for murder after police claim dad shoots dead the DUI driver who mows down his
two beloved young sons. Question, why wasn`t the drunk driver behind bars to start with?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murdered his son`s killer in revenge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gunning down a drunk driver who hit and killed his two sons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say after the crash, David Barajas (ph) went home. Grabbed his gun, then came back shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pain that I feel inside. It`s hard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t like what that reporter just said, because to my understanding, there is not a single witness that can place the gun in this
dad`s hand. All right. Now, this is what I understand that, joining me, there in Texas, Adella Uchida, a reporter with 92 FM. Adella, from what I
understand, the car runs, there`s daddy, the car runs out of gas, the two little boys and the dad are pushing the car, mommy and a baby and the
sister, I think, are inside the car. As daddy and the two little boys push, the daddy is David Barajas, the two little children, David Jr. and
Caleb, when out of the blue, here comes a drunk driver -- I mean, drunk. Stinking drunk, without his lights on, plows into the two little children.
Plows into them, kills them. And then, at some point, somebody shoots the drunk driver dead. The drunk driver, Joe Banda (ph), dead. Shoots him in
the head. Boom, it`s over. Nobody can place the gun in daddy`s hand, and the murder weapon was never found, if I`m correct. What more can you tell
me, Adella?
ADELLA UCHIDA, 92 FM: Nancy, you`re right, no gun was ever found. No witnesses were ever able to say for sure that Barajas shot Banda, only that
they saw a man, and apparently ammunition consistent with the bullets that killed him were found, but again, that`s just part of the evidence that
they have. Also, the gun powder residue tests on David Barajas came back negative.
GRACE: Whoa.
UCHIDA: That`s what they have to work with.
GRACE: Okay. Well, I`m very surprised they ever even indicted this father. Joining me now, Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids
foundation. You know, I`m not trying to encourage vigilante justice, Mark Klaas, but I can`t, where`s Mark? I can tell you this, if somebody were to
mow down, a drunk driver, this was no accident. This is a drunk driver, mowed down these two little boys as they were pushing daddy`s car with
mommy inside with a baby -- you know what, I can`t promise I wouldn`t gun him down execution style myself.
KLAAS: Yes, Nancy, I think you`re exactly right. And I think people only resort to vigilantism when they have no faith that the justice system
will serve justice on the perpetrator of the crime. Just think back in Texas, to, in 2012, there was a man who beat to death an individual who was
molesting his young daughter. He was not tried. Last year, there was a case of Ethan Couch (ph), he was a rich young boy who murdered several
people, and he served absolutely no jail time.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler and Mickey Sherman, author of "How Can You Defend Those People," first of all to you, Mickey Sherman,
I don`t know why they even indicted this guy, there`s nothing to prove he did it. Other than some theory of a revenge murder.
SHERMAN: I have to agree with you. I don`t think he had time to deliberate whether or not the justice system was going to treat this man
fairly. I think he was partially insane at the time, as well as he should have been. His two kids were mowed down right in front of him. I think
this is a case for jury nullification, I think no matter what the level of proof is, and here`s it`s scant, but if there`s any proof whatsoever, I
think the jury`s going to let him out.
GRACE: To Randy Kessler, I don`t understand why he`s even charged. No. 1. Forget the lack of proof, but come on. The drunk driver mowed his
sons down.
KESSLER: The state has got two problems, no. 1, there is no evidence, you can`t tie him to it, you got to prove it--
GRACE: Sheryl McCollum, former Georgia state director of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. This guy was drunk that night, stinking drunk. How
many times statistically had he been drunk driving before?
MCCOLLUM: Nancy, he had probably driven drunk 40 times. And this is a dual investigation, you have got the drunk driving on one side and you
got the homicide on the other. And I agree with everybody so far. You`ve got zero evidence to tie this man with the murder of the drunk driver.
GRACE: OK, a Texas dad now facing murder charges that he killed a drunk driver who killed his two little boys. This is not the first time a
parent has retaliated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jonathon Eddington murders his neighbor believing he molested his two-year-old daughter. Andrew Cody shoots and kills Lee
Britton after suspecting sexual abuse of his daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A karate instructor had abducted 11-year-old Jodie Plochet (ph). When Jodie was rescued and returned to his family, his
father was coping with reports that Ducet (ph) had sexually assaulted his son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t know what to do. You just feel helpless.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shoots and kills him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Texas father beats his daughter`s alleged molester to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was raping my daughter.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Took the girl out into some brush and attempted to molest her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father went to look for her and found her half naked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Rainy (ph) was bleeding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Broken ribs and arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He beat him with a baseball bat. Forsethia Owen (ph) says he sexually abused a young girl she knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at me. Look at me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burn in hell, Davis (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ellie Nessler (ph) fatally shoots her son`s accused molester in a California courtroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am sorry that I killed someone, I wish the judicial system would have taken care of it. I wish I wouldn`t have had
to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was beaten by the father of the child he`s accused of molesting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is knocked out on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were there any weapons involved?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My fist and my foot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Phillips has been doused in gasoline while he slept in his bed by his wife. Katamisha Hedman (ph) then set her husband
on fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say Hedman used that same store to purchase the gas earlier in the day, which she then pumped into a red
container.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A loving Texas father now chasing murder -- now facing murder charges after he allegedly killed a man who plows his two boys, dead, drunk
driving. Bottom line, Clark Goldband, the father denies any involvement, and all of the witnesses say they cannot identify the father. So why is he
on trial?
GOLDBAND: Good question, Nancy. Important to point out here, law enforcement says all of the evidence they gathered leads them to believe he
was there at the time of the shooting. However--
GRACE: What is that, one gun holster in his home? That`s not evidence.
GOLDBAND: And it is also important to point out, no gun powder residue was found on the hands. All of the witnesses who saw the shooting,
they cannot identify who the shooter is.
GRACE: This is what I`m saying. Clark Goldband. I`m saying this, if that Texas jury convicts this father after he allegedly guns down the man
who kills his children, there will be a riot like no other. This father must walk free.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: When we started trying to find this young mom of two, we were alerted that in the same area, possibly six missing moms still unaccounted
for. Straight out to Noam Laden, WABC anchor, Noam, six women?
NOAM LADEN, WABC: Yes, six women. These latest two have so much in common, it is really fascinating. You have this 30-year-old Joelle
Lockwood and 27-year-old Kristy Kelly. Same body type. Petite women, when they went missing, were wearing similar type clothing, a tank top and blue
jean shorts.
GRACE: With me right now, a special guest, Tiffany, calling from Indiana, who first alerted me after seeing our show last night. It is not
just Kristi Kelley missing, there is a possibility there are six missing moms, six missing women connected. Tiffany, now with us. Tiffany, what
first rang a bell with you that these could possibly be connected?
CALLER: Well, Nancy, I mean, we are all -- we`re a small community. For this many girls to be missing within a month, month and a half time, is
just very disturbing. We have got Megan Nichols at 16. Joelle, Kristy, Ashley Higgs, 23 from Owensboro (ph), I mean, these are all within a small
community, and for all of them just to vanish into thin air. People just don`t vanish. Somebody has to know something.
GRACE: To Todd Scales, the father of missing person Kristy Kelley, Todd, what are police telling you tonight?
SCALES: I haven`t heard anything more today. As far as Kristy`s disappearance goes.
GRACE: Everyone, please take a look at Kristy Kelley. 27-year-old mother of two. Petite female, brown hair, blue eyes. Last seen in a
sleeveless shirt and blue jean shorts with sandals. Please help us bring her home.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Corporal Tanner O`Leary, 23, Eagle Butte, South Dakota. Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Loved cracking
jokes and working outside. Daughter, Alexis. Sister, Tully. Mother, Carmen. Grandmother, Arlene. Tanner O`Leary, American hero.
And happy birthday to a friend of the show, Sybil, who loves photography and charities. Everyone, thank you for being with us. Drew up
next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
