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Nancy Grace
Possible Audio of Michael Brown Shooting Revealed
Aired August 26, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. After weeks of violence, small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart after an unarmed teen shot dead
by a cop in the street, the teen en route to his grandmother`s, bombshell tonight. We obtain a coincidental recording of the shots fired on the
unarmed teen, Michael Brown. Does the secret recording show a long pause before the last so-called kill shots? And ergo, does that prove the
killing of the teen was intentional?
And tonight, another bombshell, inside the autopsy room. Is there evidence abrasions on the teen`s body could prove he was also beaten before
he died?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Allegedly, the gunshots fired during the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not just the number of gunshots, it`s how they`re fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, "Real Housewife" turned real convict Teresa Giudice and her husband busted when fans hone in on their lavish lifestyle,
a $5 million mansion, a $30,000 to $50,000 birthday party for their little girl, then caught red-handed lying to feds to get even more money.
Tonight, reports "Real Housewife" Teresa Giudice bragging, I`ll never do a day behind bars. Oh, really?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Real Housewives of New Jersey" star Teresa Giudice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one can knock me down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While awaiting a possible prison sentence, what`s she doing? She`s hosting a party.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. After weeks of violence, small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the
street buried, tonight, we obtain a coincidental recording of the shots fired on the unarmed teen, Michael Brown.
Does this secret recording show a long pause before the last of the so-called kill shots? And ergo, does the long pause prove the killing of
the teen was intentional, that the cop had time to think about it before he actually fired the bullets into the teen`s head?
And another bombshell tonight, inside the autopsy room. Is there evidence abrasions on the teen`s body could prove he was also beaten before
he died?
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Colin Jeffery, news director, KTRS. Before I go to you, let`s take a listen, Colin, of the
secretly recorded audio. Roll it, Liz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, everybody, you just heard it. Rerack it, Liz. That is secretly recorded audio -- we cannot independently verify its authenticity
-- of the time, the horrific moment that teen, unarmed, gunned down. Now, the police would argue that it was basically in self-defense, that the teen
was attacking the cop. But listen. Listen to the pause between the shots. Play it again, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, I`m going to move on later to what this video actually is. It sounds like some kind of a sex chat that was being recorded by some guy.
But in the background, you hear the shooting, all right? Liz, one more time. I want to count these shots. One more time please, Liz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, out to Colin Jeffery, news director KTRS. There is a pause, a pause in between the shots. Now, we all know -- and I`ve got
everybody with me tonight, Professor Shawn Parcells, who helped perform the autopsy on Michael Brown. Also with me is another medical examiner joining
us.
But my question on this -- Dr. Michael Anderson. The pause there, you cannot date gunshot wounds, like this one was first, this one was second.
And I`m sure Dr. Anderson and Parcells will agree with that. But obviously speaking, the last two shots went through his head. So we know those would
cause instant death, so they had to be the last shots, the last shots. There was a pause between the shots.
He had time to think, Colin Jeffery.
COLIN JEFFERY, WTRS (via telephone): Yes. And it`s a two to three- second pause there in between the bursts of sort of six rounds that we heard at the top and then the second burst of four rounds. And that`s
really going to be something interesting to look at because the initial count we received from Dorian Johnson is that there was a struggle at the
car. Michael Brown ran away from the officer. Officer Wilson then started shooting. When -- Johnson says when Brown realized he was hit, he turned
around and put his hand up. And that`s again when Johnson says Wilson shot at him several more times.
So does this verify that account? Not definitively. It`s just a sound recording. But what it does illustrate is that there was this burst
of gunfire, and then this two to three-second pause, during which we don`t know what happened before those final shots, and as you say, Nancy, what we
could believe the fatal shot in that last group of four.
GRACE: Now, according to some eyewitnesses, Michael turns around, hands up in the air -- I don`t have a gun, don`t shoot. Other theories are
that he dug into the officer with his head down, hence the shot directly downward on the crown of his head.
To Shawn Parcells joining us, who helped perform the autopsy on Brown. Also with us, Dr. Michael Anderson out of Cleveland, chief medical officer,
University Hospitals, critical care specialist. To both of you gentlemen, thank you for being with us.
To Shawn Parcells. There`s no way, in all the literally thousands of cases, felony cases that I handled, that you could date a gunshot wound to
the body unless you could deduce that from other facts. For instance, in this case, Shawn and Dr. Michael Anderson, you know the shots to the head
are instant death.
So Shawn Parcells, now that you`ve heard this pause in the tape, does that support your theory?
SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSICS CONSULTANT: Well, first of all, I can`t really comment on it because we don`t know if this is independently
confirmed to be tied with the shooting. But let`s just say it is. I`m going to say no because in the sequence of shots that you hear, we don`t
know out of those sequence, which ones hit the body. And so even if there is a long pause, and let`s just say Michael Brown is already down on the
ground, did he shoot again and miss him? So I can`t really say.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Shawn -- Shawn, how many shots went to the head?
PARCELLS: Two.
GRACE: All right. When you listen to the recording, how many more shots come after the pause?
PARCELLS: What, was there four after the pause...
GRACE: Four. Four.
PARCELLS: ... I believe. Yes.
GRACE: And that leads me to my next question. Don`t let Anderson go. Shawn Parcells, what happened to the other bullets? If there were this
many fired, according to this audio recording, where are the other bullets?
PARCELLS: We don`t know that. We don`t have the ballistics information back yet.
GRACE: Do we know if they were found at the scene?
PARCELLS: I`m assuming that there were shots found at the scene. And the question is, how many. How many casings did they find, how many actual
shots were fired? That`s a critical question that does need to be answered.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Anderson, chief medical officer at University Hospitals. Dr. Anderson, thank you for being with us. What do you make of
the wounds to the body? And now that this secretly recorded audiotape has emerged, which scenario does it support?
DR. MICHAEL ANDERSON, CRITICAL CARE SPECIALIST: Well, Nancy, it`s a pleasure to be with you. I think there`s a couple of things. First and
foremost, I would agree that this has to be corroborated as really, you know, at the scene at the time. A corroboration...
GRACE: OK, gentlemen...
ANDERSON: ... is an important piece of evidence.
GRACE: ... Dr. Anderson, you`re the MD. I`m just a JD. I can see that.
ANDERSON: A very important degree.
GRACE: But the two of you -- the two of you -- do you think there was another 10 or 11 gunshots fired in that area that night? Because I haven`t
heard of them. But OK, fine. We haven`t independently corroborated that this is from that incident. Granted. Let`s just pretend that this was the
only 10 to 11 shots fired on that block that night.
Now, what do you make of it, Dr. Anderson?
ANDERSON: Well, I still think it could be an important piece of evidence. I agree. If it`s corroborated, if it, indeed, at the right
place at the right scene -- and I think a JD`s an important degree, too, by the way -- I think it could be a very important bit of evidence, you know,
for -- for the prosecution if, indeed, this moves, you know, to a criminal case after a thorough investigation.
GRACE: Because why?
ANDERSON: Well, because I agree with you that if, indeed, you piece those pieces together, where there`s shots, a pause, and then potentially
two fatal shots at the end, it could be a very important piece of evidence. I would stand behind the idea that we have to corroborate or line up, if
you will, what shots entered the victim`s body, and you know, what shots you hear on that recording. So I think it`s an important piece of the
puzzle, if you will.
GRACE: OK, Liz, pull me the sound of the contradicting statements. I`m afraid, Dr. Anderson, that may be something that is never reconciled.
Liz, while you`re pulling that, I`m going to play that for you in just a moment, Shawn Parcells and Dr. Anderson.
With me is special guest Christopher Robinson, firearms expert with Chris Robinson Forensics, former crime lab director. Chris, thank you for
being with us. Let`s talk about the weapon and why this pause is so significant. What can you tell me about the weapon? A Sig Sauer, right?
CHRISTOPHER ROBINSON, FIREARMS EXPERT: This is a Sig Sauer semiautomatic pistol.
GRACE: When you say semi, what do you mean by that?
ROBINSON: With each pull of the trigger, you`d fire a bullet from the weapon. So you...
GRACE: One bullet, one pull.
ROBINSON: Correct. You place a loaded magazine in the butt of the weapon, and then...
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey. Hey, you know what, Chris? Just take the mag out again for me, please. Not everybody knows -- a lot of people think
magazine, "People," "Time," "Economist." OK, that`s a magazine. Go ahead.
ROBINSON: Correct. This particular magazine for the P-229 would hold 12 cartridges. So you place a loaded magazine into the butt of the
weapon...
GRACE: Twelve bullets.
ROBINSON: Correct. Then you`d place -- you`d pull the slide to the rear, and then it would chamber a cartridge from the magazine into the
chamber of the weapon.
GRACE: OK. Do that again. This has to be done before the first shot`s fired.
ROBINSON: Correct. However, most officers carry their weapons fully loaded. So they would hold 12 in the magazine and one in the chamber. So
it could hold a total of 13 cartridges. If he`s already carrying his weapon fully loaded, he would not have to pull the slide to the rear. He
could...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. If it`s already fully loaded, you don`t have to slide it back to shoot. That`s what you`re saying.
ROBINSON: That`s correct. That`s correct.
GRACE: So let`s just go with he`s got it fully loaded because most cops have it fully -- this is not Barney Fife. He doesn`t have to ask Andy
for the bullet, all right? So let`s just say he`s got it fully loaded, all right? What happens?
ROBINSON: At this point -- this is a double action gun. You pull the trigger, and the hammer would be cocked, and then it would drop the hammer.
That`s a double action trigger pull. After the first shot`s fired, the slide would be forced to the rear. And as it comes forward, the hammer
stays cocked. And with each pull of the trigger it would be a single action trigger pull.
GRACE: So the first one is double action, which basically serves as the safety on an Sig of this nature. Then after that, there isn`t a double
action, it`s single action.
ROBINSON: That`s correct. The first trigger pull would be approximately 10 pounds of pressure.
GRACE: And after that?
ROBINSON: It would be four-and-a-half pounds of pressure for each single action trigger pull.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney, New York, Trinity Hundredmark, defense attorney in Atlanta.
All right, Michael Mazzariello, you heard the secretly recorded tape. It doesn`t matter if it came off a sex chat or what. That`s probably why
it`s just emerging. Whoever did it probably didn`t want his wife to find out about it. You hear him saying, Oh, you look so fine. I saw that video
of you. Then suddenly, pow, in the background! Forget all that. The pause -- the pause between the gunshots is the significant factor.
Roll it Liz, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So what`s the defense? Because with a civilian, it may mean something. But with a trained police officer, and he`s pausing and then he
finishes the kill shots, that`s bad for the cop.
MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, good evening, Nancy. Thank you for having me on. I think it works for defense. I think that it
shows that the cop tried to disable the suspect before doing the fatal shot. This is a big individual, Mr. Brown. The first four shots hit him
on the arm...
GRACE: You know what? Hold on, Mazzariello. Don`t talk about how big he is. Trinity Hundredmark, a gun makes all the difference. It makes
a big man little and a little man big.
MAZZARIELLO: That`s not necessarily true.
(CROSSTALK)
MAZZARIELLO: It`s not necessarily true!
GRACE: This is bad for the cop.
TRINITY HUNDREDMARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: ... somebody`s coming after you and attacking you!
MAZZARIELLO: Well, not -- exactly. If someone`s coming out and attacking you...
(CROSSTALK)
MAZZARIELLO: The officer hit him four times, we know, in the arm, Nancy. Maybe the last two was the pause and the suspect kept coming at
him, and then he did what no police officer wants to do.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of controversy about what happened.
DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS: He pulled up alongside us. He tried to brush his door open, but we were so close to it that it ricocheted off us
and it bounced back to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He gets out of the car. He slams his door shut violently (INAUDIBLE) Michael did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say Brown assaulted the officer before he opened fire. But witnesses here tell a different story.
JOHNSON: He just reached his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck, and was trying to -- as he was trying to choke my friend.
And he was trying to get away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punches him in the face and then (INAUDIBLE) grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun. So one point, he`s got the gun
fully turned against his -- his hip. And (INAUDIBLE) shoves it away and the gun goes off.
JOHNSON: His weapon was drawn, and he said, I`ll shoot you, or, I`m going to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So he stands up and yells "freeze." Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael starts taunting him, Oh, what are
you going to do about it? You know, You`re not going to shoot me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some witness accounts say Brown was running from the officer and appeared to be surrendering, his hands in the air at the
time he was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He ran for his life. They shot him, and he fell. He put his arms up to let them know he was compliant.
JOHNSON: And once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and he put his hands in the air and he started to get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He turned around and he puts his hand up like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then he said, all of a sudden, he just started to bum-rush him. He just started coming at him full speed. And so
he just started shooting, and he just kept coming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The preliminary autopsy results...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And there you have it. I promised you, Dr. Michael Anderson, you would hear a little bit of the conflicting statements. And even right
now, those statements still up in the air.
With me, Dr. Michael Anderson, chief medical officer, University Hospitals. And the man who helped perform the autopsy on teen Michael
Brown with us, Professor Shawn Parcells. With me here on the set, Christopher Robinson, firearms expert.
All right, to you, Christopher Robinson. You went through that a little bit quickly for those out there that haven`t fired a gun as much as
you and I have been forced to do so. Could you go through that? You went through it slowly. I want to see you do it quickly because I want to see
how that would work. So let me get the camera trained on what Chris is doing.
ROBINSON: OK. So if I take a fully loaded weapon, 13 rounds, I place the magazine in the butt of the weapon. You could load it very quickly.
If it`s already loaded, all you have to do is pull the trigger of the weapon. As fast as you can humanly pull the trigger is as fast as the
weapon will shoot.
GRACE: And then a pause and then the other shots.
OK, out to C.W. Jensen joining me, retired police captain out of Cave Creek, Arizona. C.W., thank you for being with us. First of all, do you
take your weapon on the street fully loaded at all times, no safety?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE CAPTAIN: If you want to live through the shift, you do that, yes. I would say most departments have requirements
that that`s how your firearm is held (ph).
GRACE: OK. What do you make of the pause?
JENSEN: You know, I thought, Chris, the firearms expert, which I am not, did a really good job. One of the things that could have happened --
and Chris can do a much better job than me. I wouldn`t mind telling you what it`s like to have been in a shooting and kill someone and the things
that happen to a cop.
But that being said, one of the things I thought -- here`s a Glock, very similar to a Sig, Nancy. You know that. And you know that sometimes
when you`re firing, there`s a problem. And this is called a stovepipe. You can see the round has stopped.
Now, let`s just say the cop -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. In the fog of war, so to speak -- I`ve been there -- you can`t hear. You get tunnel vision.
Time slows down. You can`t see the rounds hitting the people. I shot a guy three feet away. I didn`t know I had killed him. I mean, I saw
nothing.
So let`s say this jammed. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -- jam. He clears it, drops his mag because he`s not sure what`s going to happen. He takes
another mag out, loads it, racks it. That`s about three seconds. 1, 2, 3, 4.
Also by this time -- again, he doesn`t know that he`s hit the guy. He thinks he`s getting closer. And he goes, If I don`t put this guy down, I`m
a dead man. And then he puts the two rounds in his head. Did he do it intentionally? Absolutely. So would I.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police shot this boy outside my apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six. That`s at least how many times 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be more, but at least six.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, we have obtained coincidentally recorded audio of what we believe to be the horrific moment
that Michael Brown was gunned down, the unarmed teen. Take a listen to what we have found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, the authenticity of this audiotape has not been -- it hasn`t been independently verified. But I don`t know what other gunshots -
- 10, 11 shots go down at that time in those square blocks, other than this one. Tonight, I`m wondering, where are the other bullets? And inside that
autopsy, what do we know about the abrasions on the teen`s body?
But first, back to C.W. Jensen. C.W., as you were discussing a police shooting, you stated that you have shot and killed a man in the line of
duty and you didn`t even know he was dead. What happened?
JENSEN: Right. I think that that may be something that, you know, just doesn`t get discussed. It was a hostage situation, armed robber had a
knife to a guy`s throat. I`ll make this brief. But we were three feet away. The guy said, I`m going to kill him unless you drop your gun. And I
fired and killed him. I thought I shot twice. I shot four times. This is how fast.
This is a revolver. This is what we used to carry back in the day. And Nancy, this is -- as you know, once -- that`s six. That`s less than 2
seconds. I doubt he was carrying a revolver, but if he did six rounds, got to dump it, got to reload.
Now, I think he had a Sig just like the firearms instructor said. But the officer probably had no idea he`d even hit him until he stopped and
dropped. I investigated a bunch of officer-involved shootings besides my own that I did not investigate. And if someone`s standing up and they
drop, cops stop shooting. If they`re seated or laying down, there`s more shots because there`s no visual clue. So he popped it, finally he dropped
and everything stopped. There`s not another 19 rounds fired.
GRACE: To Shawn Parcells and Dr. Michael Anderson, first to you, Shawn, wouldn`t you agree that although we know you cannot date the gunshot
wounds to the body, we don`t know what`s first, second, third, fourth an so on, wouldn`t you agree the last ones had to be the ones in the head because
that`s what killed him?
PARCELLS: Correct. If this is corroborated I would agree that the last sequence of shots most likely will represent in some sequence the last
two going into his head. So the question is, why the pause and what was happening up to the pause and then after the pause. That`s why the
officer`s statement is so crucial in this case, which we have not seen or read any of that yet.
GRACE: Dr. Michael Anderson also with us, Dr. Anderson, many people have talked about what shot was first, second, third, fourth, fifth and
sixth. Is there any way you can look at the body alone and determine the order, the sequence of the shots?
ANDERSON: It is really difficult if not impossible to sequence the shot based only on examination. That`s why as you`ve said, there are a lot
of different accounts of what happened during that tragic night. And that`s why the folks that are in charge of this investigation from the
medical side, the medical examiner, has a big task ahead of him. From the police side, a big task ahead of them. That is to take all of these
different pieces of evidence. I would call this audio tape if corroborated another piece of evidence, and try and piece it together into a story of
what happened on that tragic night.
GRACE: Joining me right now special guest Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, thank you for being with us. What do
you make of this coincidentally recorded audio, which I believe to be of the Michael Brown shooting? Of course we are saying we can`t independently
verify it, granted. What do you make of it, Daryl?
PARKS: I`m very cautious of it, Nancy, for this reason. You don`t hear -- we know for sure there was one shot fired within the car. This
particular tape or audio that I`ve heard thus far doesn`t appear to have that shot on it. So it makes me very concerned as to whether or not this
is authentic. So I think we have to wait and let all the evidence gather together before we can probably tie it together. The one thing I would
say, though, we still have these many eyewitnesses, their account of what happened.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I don`t understand what you`re saying. I don`t understand what you`re saying. You doubt the authenticity because what?
PARKS: Well, there was a single shot that took place -- that`s what`s been reported, that there was a single shot that happened within the car.
And then there were other shots that came after -- outside the car. So I would want to hear that single shot, and then the other shots would have
taken place. I don`t see where that single shot could have come in this. Based on what we`ve heard.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine. Just going on some of your videos, how could I forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, coincidentally recorded audio of the night Michael Brown gunned down. Does
it prove there was a long pause, at least two seconds, in the shooting of the unarmed teen. And if so, what does that mean? Does it show the cop
had time to stop shooting, thus avoiding the last two so-called kill shots? With me Daryl Parks, the lawyer for Michael Brown`s family. Also with me
here on the set, Christopher Robinson, firearms expert. Chris Robinson, forensics, former crime lab director.
Okay. Chris Robinson, break it down for me one more time. And this time don`t give me a tutorial. No. 1, point that thing in another
direction. I know you say it`s unloaded, but just do that. And show me how quickly this whole thing could have gone down.
ROBINSON: Within about two seconds.
GRACE: One more time, please.
Mag in, all right. Now, to you, C.W. Jensen, when you said that you would pause and rack it, what did you mean by that?
JENSEN: Oh, I meant if it was jammed, and Chris can probably show you better, but if it was jammed, he would put the magazine in. And when you
do that, there`s no bullet in the chamber. So you rack it. And that`s called just say rack the gun back.
GRACE: But on this Sig, doubtful because it had what, 13? How many bullets did it have?
JENSEN: Sigs are different. In my shooting, I asked how many times I fired, I thought two, I fired six. They said, why did you shoot six? I
said that`s all I had. I would have shot more.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Tammy, Missouri. Hi, Tammy, I know you`re so close to Ferguson. What is your question?
CALLER: Thank you, Nancy, so much for taking my call. I`m so grateful for the work you do. You`re such a hero of mine. I love when you
say unleash the lawyers. I just wanted to say, being here, I respect everyone on your show right now. Just -- they don`t live here. They don`t
understand gunshots are the norm, not monthly, not weekly, not just daily. Hourly there are numbers of gunshots all the time, sirens constantly. I
just don`t know how anyone even with the best degree could decipher which gunshots came from where, when. It`s just the norm here in Ferguson. And
I just wanted to make that comment. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: You know, that is a heck of a note that Tammy just said. There are so many gunshots fired in Ferguson, how do you know if these were
the same shots. Exactly what Daryl Parks was just saying. Lolita, Virginia, hi, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call. Nancy, I just admire you so much. My comment is, I believe that the officer shot
those first shots, hurt him enough that he could have stopped. That young man did not have to die. He did not have to die. His family should not
have to have buried him yesterday. I feel so sad for his mother and father. It is just so senseless.
GRACE: You know what, Lolita, I cannot agree with you more. Because I remember walking in -- it`s the longest 50 feet, 70 feet I ever walked
was walking into my fiance`s funeral and trying to get up to that row up front with his family right in front of his coffin. And looking at it when
it went out of the church, I will never forget it as long as I live. And when I think what this mother is going through and will go through for the
rest of her life, it`s overwhelming.
Dr. Patricia Saunders is joining me, clinical psychologist. I don`t know how the mother can even go on, the mother or the father, much less
with all of this surrounding. It`s bad enough, Patricia, you and I have talked about this many, many times in person, it`s bad enough to lose
someone you love, much less your child. But the added layer of violence, all right? And whether this turns out that the cop was right. Forever she
will believe, and she may be right, that her son was gunned down needlessly. Where do you go with that?
SAUNDERS: It stays with you for the rest of your life. It will never lose its pain. It will lose some of its immediacy as you know, Nancy, from
your experience. But it`s the worst thing that can happen to anyone.
GRACE: To Stacey Newman on the story, Stacey, you and I have gone over and over and over this new audiotape. How does it fit in with many of
the eyewitness accounts?
NEWMAN: Nancy, a lot of the eyewitnesses who were on the scene said that Michael Brown was running away from the cop. That`s when the first
set of shots could have been fired, the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. As you said earlier, some of those shots could have missed him. He turned around, had
his hands up in the air, and another round of shots were fired. That could be the 1, 2, 3, 4 after that three to four-second pause.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine. Just going over some of your videos. How could I forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Real housewife turned real convict Theresa Guidice and her husband busted when feds honed in on their lavish lifestyle, a $5 million
mansion, a 30 to $50,000 birthday party for their little girl. Then caught red-handed lying to the feds to get even more money. I`m talking about $5
million more. And tonight, reports surface real housewife Theresa Giudice bragging I`ll never do a day behind bars. Really?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you don`t like me, just come out and say it.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A criminal lawyer.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s video of the "Real Housewives of New Jersey" from Bravo. Joining me right now, Chloe Melas, senior reporter for
Hollywoodlife.com. Chloe, what`s this about her allegedly bragging she`ll never do jail time because she`s got four daughters?
MELAS: It`s a shocking report, Nancy. Radaronline.com has released this explosive report that claims she`s going around to all her friends,
going on beach vacations this summer, still shopping, still partying. And she`s saying, listen, I have four daughters. So I`m not going to be seeing
any nights or days behind bars. Because the judge is going to feel sympathetic towards me and I`m going to blame it all on Joe.
GRACE: Not if he sees this pictures. Michael Mazzariello, New York, Trinity Hundredmark, Atlanta. First to you, Mazzariello, it`s not just the
bragging, I`ll never do a day behind bars. But she is already granted a continuance. In other words, she was supposed to be sentenced a while
back, and her father-in-law, God rest his soul, died unexpectedly. While she was supposed to be grieving, she actually threw a party at a big
nightclub in Parsippity (ph), New Jersey, I think it was, where everybody wag charged like a hundred bucks. It was open to the public. You may have
been there. I was working that night. But I think they were serving her fabalinis and you could get one little appetizer and a fabalini and you got
to meet her for $100. That isn`t grieving.
MAZZARIELLO: I wasn`t there.
GRACE: You (inaudible) argue with me, but that ain`t grieving people.
MAZZARIELLO: It is federal court, it`s downward departure. She has four children. She accepted a plea, Nancy. She went into court and she
took her justice. Now she is hoping that the judge will lay it on Joe and go for a downward departure at the very least, put Joe in first, let him
serve her time, and let the one parent out and the other parent in. She needs--
GRACE: Trinity Hundredmark, what about it?
HUNDREDMARK: You know, no one has ever accused her of being sane. I think we all know she does crazy things from flipping tables and going nuts
--
MAZZARIELLO: She is a businesswoman.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Put them up. I appreciate all that. I actually am busy working and taking care of my twins. I don`t get to watch "The Real
Housewives." But I`m glad you gave me that synopsis. I don`t really care about any of that. What I care about is trying to cheat the government out
of $5 million.
MAZZARIELLO: Not necessarily her.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She`s signed the documents.
MAZZARIELLO: So oh, come on. We had a district attorney in New York who signed a document. She didn`t go to jail. She was a district attorney
with the $400,000 -- remember that one --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: This case. This case.
(CROSSTALK)
MAZZARIELLO: She is a great mom. Nancy, she is a great mom. She is a great mom, Nancy. You should appreciate that.
GRACE: Really? You think preaching materialism and $60,000 birthday parties for your child, you think that`s a good lesson?
MAZZARIELLO: It is a reality show.
GRACE: Put him up. Put him up.
MAZZARIELLO: It is her schtick.
GRACE: Cut his mic. Cut his mic. Thank you. You cannot claim she`s a great mom and she tried to swindle the government out of $5 million and
she is preaching materialism to her daughter. All of those cannot be --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Okay, back to you Mazzariello and Hundredmark. Mazzariello, you say she is a great mom. She is teaching materialism to her daughter.
Over the top lavish lifestyle and then trying to cheat the government out of $5 million by lying on federal forms. What do you mean that`s a good
mother? How could that be?
MAZZARIELLO: You know what Teresa is, she got caught up with the reality nightmare. It`s what I call it. You can see the show. My wife
watches the show, I watch it with her. She takes care of the children. They are well dressed, well groomed, well mannered. She is showing them --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She is showing them what?
MAZZARIELLO: She is showing them you can make a mistake in your life and do right. She made a mistake. She went into court, pled guilty. Her
children are hearing this.
GRACE: Now she is bragging she won`t do a day of jail time.
(CROSSTALK)
MELAS: We are hearing from Hollywoodlife.com that cast mates of hers don`t feel sorry for her, and that even though she thinks she might not be
going to jail, she has still spoken to family members and decided who she wants to watch her four daughters if she is sentenced to jail on September
23. And I can tell you exclusively, Nancy, that she wants it to be Melissa Gorga (ph), her sister-in-law, who she is always feuding with, and her
brother Joe.
GRACE: The one she is always fighting with? You mean that`s not real?
MELAS: Oh, I know, right. Sorry to tell you that it`s not all real.
GRACE: You are ruining the whole thing for me, Chloe.
MELAS: I know. She already told them, listen, I want you to take care of my girls if I go to jail, but I don`t think it will happen. I
think she is a little bit scared that they will throw the book at her.
GRACE: Chloe Melas joining me from Hollywoodlife.com.
Let`s stop, everyone, and remember American hero, Army Captain Matthew Ferrara, 24, Torrance, California. Silver Star. West Point grad. Spoke
fluent Mandarin. Parents Mario and Linda. Four siblings. Matthew Ferrara, American hero.
Tonight, happy anniversary to Georgia friends Tom and Mary Cartwright. Mary, renowned preschool teacher, all the students love her, and PS, she
taught Ryan Seacrest. Tom, corporate lawyer, who sings a solo every Palm Sunday. Parents of three. Happy anniversary. And a special good night
from a New York friend, oh, look how big he`s grown. Oh, my little Mario. Everybody, Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.
And until then, good night, friend.
END
