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Nancy Grace
Michael Brown Grand Jury Meets; Joran Van Der Sloot Sent to Andean Prison
Aired August 27, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. After weeks of violence, small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart after an unarmed teen shot dead
by a cop in the street, the teen en route to his grandmother`s, we obtain a coincidental alleged reporting of the shots fired on the teen, Michael
Brown. Does the recording show a long pause before the last so-called kill shots? And ergo, does that prove the killing was intentional?
Bombshell tonight. Our sources take us inside the autopsy room where Brown autopsied. What do we learn? This as a $200 million lawsuit filed
over Michael Brown`s death. And tonight, we learn the secret grand jury reconvenes in the last hours behind closed doors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six shots, a short break, then apparently four more. Could this be the sound of the shots Officer Darren Wilson fired at
Michael Brown?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, One day, the whole world will know my name!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Natalee Holloway prime murder suspect Joran Van Der Sloot pleads guilty to the murder of another young girl he meets in a
resort casino. After beating her to a pulp, breaking her neck, Van Der Sloot kicks back with a cup of coffee and a Danish just inches from her
dead body. Then Van Der Sloot weds behind prison walls to a woman eight months pregnant with Van Der Sloot`s baby. How did that happen?
As we go to air tonight, we learn the prime suspect in the murder of Natalee Holloway moved to a remote Andean prison after he threatens to kill
his warden, this just one month after his wedding to his pregnant bride in jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are conjugal visits.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Did you kill Stephany Tatiana?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, CONVICTED OF MURDER (through translator): Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s living life to the fullest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has to pay for his actions. Despicable, what he`s done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want this person to (INAUDIBLE) our family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live to White Hills, Arizona. Caught on video, the fateful seconds before a 9-year-old little girl shoots her gun instructor
dead with an Uzi. We have the video.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. After weeks of violence, small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart when an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the
street, the teen en route to his grandmother`s, we obtain a coincidental alleged recording of shots fired on the teen, Michael Brown. Does the
secret recording show a long pause before the last so-called kill shots? And does that prove the killing was intentional?
Tonight, our sources take us inside the autopsy room where Brown was autopsied. What do we learn? This as a $200 million lawsuit over teen
Michael Brown`s death. And tonight, in the last hours, the secret grand jury has reconvened behind closed doors.
Also tonight, we learn police are doing a re-enact. They are reconstructing the scene and the shooting. We follow along in their
footsteps and do the same.
Straight out to Colin Jeffery, news director, KTRS. Colin, the grand jury reconvened this morning. As a matter of fact, they stayed behind
closed doors all day long, only leaving late in the day. What do we know about the grand jury, Colin?
COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS (via telephone): Well, let`s start with the makeup of the grand jury. It`s 12 people. In that, we`ve got nine white
people, six men, three women, and then three black members. That`s two women and one man. Those racial demographics actually break down pretty
close to St. Louis County as a whole, where 25 percent of the population is black. So in that respect, it`s representative.
As far as what`s going on inside there, as you said, it`s a secret. So we still don`t know a lot. The big question...
GRACE: Well, Colin -- Colin Jeffery, I know we don`t know what`s going on behind the closed doors. But there`s got to be a front door and a
back door. Who`s been going in? Who`s been going out?
JEFFERY: Well, the judge has worked very hard to maintain a level of secrecy about who these people are, given the high-profile nature of the
case. A few news organizations actually requested more information from the judge as far as the makeup of the grand jury, namely their ages and...
GRACE: Guys, you`re seeing right there where the grand jury has been meeting all day long, mulling a possible indictment on the police officer
who guns down the unarmed teen, that grand jury reconvening today in the last hours in secret proceedings.
Go ahead, Colin Jeffery.
JEFFERY: And like I was saying, it`s very much -- we`re trying to gather more information. What we don`t know is where these grand jurors
are from. The judge said this is in their privacy interests, not letting us know what zip code they come from or their ages.
The big question we`re all waiting to see -- and right now, there just seem to be more and more questions popping up -- is will this Officer
Darren Wilson...
GRACE: Right.
JEFFERY: ... appear and give his eyewitness account?
GRACE: Well, we also learn in the last hours that the police are doing a re-enact, as is the district attorney`s office. We do the same,
following along in their footsteps.
Joining me right now, Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, the grand jury has been meeting all day long. They left
just about the time that we go to air. Do you believe the police officer is going to testify in his own defense? And is anybody in the Brown family
going to be called?
DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, as of now, we do not know whether or not the Brown family will be called. Certainly, if the
prosecutor would like to call them, they are available. As to the officer, that`s a decision that he and his legal team will have to make as to
whether he goes in, offers his defense, because, certainly, we know that he is the one that shot Michael Brown in this case.
GRACE: Daryl Parks with us and taking your calls, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family.
Daryl, again, thank you for being with us. Daryl, in this grand jury, it could be as simple as a detective taking the stand and laying out the
case for the grand jurors. But I`ve got a feeling in this case, the grand jury`s going to want to know more.
PARKS: I think so, too. I think, given the fact that this officer is the one witness that has his version of the case, it would seem highly
likely that he would want to go in and tell his version of what happened. Obviously, we have now heard from multiple lay witnesses who were
eyewitnesses to what happened in this case, and their versions certainly put him in a pretty culpable spot.
GRACE: Well, Daryl Parks, what do you know about the district attorney`s office and the police creating re-enacts of what happened, what
exactly went down, literally in five to ten-second segments, what exactly happened when this shot went off, when that shot went off? What have you
heard about the re-enact going down?
PARKS: I haven`t heard much about this. This is my first time hearing about that today. Obviously, the facts in terms of how things may
have happened -- and on our side of things, I`ve listened to all of the witnesses over and over again step-by-step about what their versions are.
So I could certainly see why a re-enactment of some type would be very important based upon the testimony that`s been given thus far in this case.
And certainly, they would have the benefit of the ballistics, of where the casings fell and other pertinent information that they may have found
in the course of this investigation, especially, you know, where the car was parked, the distances that may...
GRACE: Right.
PARKS: ... be involved in this case.
GRACE: Everyone, as we are speaking, the grand jury has left. We understand that they are leaving. They`ve been meeting behind closed doors
all day long, hearing evidence in this case.
Out to the lines. Gerald in Washington. Hi, Gerald. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. Big fan. But you know, I`ve been thinking a lot about what`s going on right now. And my theory is -- I
don`t know names, but the guy said that he shot, like, four times, but thought he shot twice. Therefore, the cop probably shot -- probably
thought he shot a couple of times. It sounds like he shot eight times, but he could have thought he shot a full 13. Therefore, he could have
thought...
GRACE: Well, hold on. Let`s get the answer to that. Liz, rack me up the audio that we played last night for our viewers. This was a
tangentially, a coincidentally obtained audio, a secret recording. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, again, we have not independently verified the authenticity of that audiotape. But many, many legal eagles believe that
that is the sound of the shots fired on Michael Brown.
Out to the lines. Lisa. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy and panel. Can I please say first, I think the verdict of the outcome of the trial should be guilty. Why?
Because of the heartache and sorrow now his family will be facing for life. And I was wondering if you agree with me, please.
GRACE: Well, right now, I`m still waiting to find out more about the autopsy. And I think that when we get that evidence in, we`ll know more
about who`s telling the truth.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are pretty. You`re so fine, just going on some of your videos. How could I forget?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, what they`re talking about -- you know what? Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, death penalty-qualified prosecutor Eleanor
Odom. Also with me tonight, defense attorney from the Atlanta jurisdiction Peter Odom.
Bottom line, what it boils down to, Peter, is the time that the officer had to pull the gun, pull out his Sig Sauer and start shooting.
There was a 2-second pause in the shots. Will that equal an intentional killing?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, what we don`t know is what was happening at the time that the officer was firing all those shots. And
that`s what`s missing really here in this discussion. That`s what the grand jury is finding out now. If, for example, it turns out that that --
that boy was coming toward the officer in a threatening manner, that would lean toward justification.
GRACE: OK.
P. ODOM: If it turns out he was backing up, that would lean away from justification. We just don`t know.
GRACE: OK, to Daryl Parks. You`re hearing that. How does your theory from your witnesses play into what Peter Odom just said?
PARKS: Well, the witnesses tell a version somewhat close to what Peter is saying. However, most of them describe that Mike Brown had been
hit by a bullet before he began turning around. So he was already wounded when he started turning around.
He then says, Quit shooting, and grabs himself. So yes, he had his hands up. And then he went to -- as he was being hit by the bullets, he
probably was going down, and the bullets hit him on the top of the head, of the final bullets that ultimately killed him on the spot.
GRACE: Take a listen to what witnesses had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of controversy about what happened.
DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS: He pulled up alongside us. He tried to brush his door open, but we were so close to it that it ricocheted off us
and it bounced back to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As he got out of his car, he slammed his door shut violently (INAUDIBLE) Michael did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say Brown assaulted the officer before he opened fire. But witnesses here tell a different story.
JOHNSON: He just reached his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck, and was trying to -- as he was trying to choke my friend.
And he was trying to get away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punches him in the face and then (INAUDIBLE) grabs for his gun. Michael grabs the gun. So one point, he`s got the gun
fully turned against his -- his hip. And (INAUDIBLE) shoves it away and the gun goes off.
JOHNSON: His weapon was drawn, and he said, I`ll shoot you, or, I`m going to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So he stands up and yells, Freeze. Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael starts taunting him, Oh, what are you
going to do about it? You know, You`re not going to shoot me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some witness accounts say Brown was running from the officer and appeared to be surrendering, his hands in the air at the
time he was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He ran for his life. They shot him, and he fell. He put his arms up to let them know he was compliant.
JOHNSON: And once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and he put his hands in the air and he started to get down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He turned around and he puts his hands up like this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then he said, all of a sudden, he just started to bum-rush him. He just started coming at him full speed. And so
he just started shooting, and he just kept coming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The preliminary autopsy results indicate that Brown was shot twice in the head, four times in the right arm, and that all
bullets entered from the front.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least six.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exit the roadway immediately or you will be subject to arrest!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re pushing everyone back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At this hour, we learn that all day, a secret grand jury has been meeting in the case of the shooting of teen Michael Brown.
Joining me, Susan Roach, former prosecutor there in St. Louis County. Susan, thank you for being with us. How will the proceedings go down
today? What happened?
SUSAN ROACH, FMR. ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: OK. And thank you, Nancy, for having me. What happened is they met, started early this
morning and have adjourned. And that would be somewhat typical in a case such as this. There would be breaks based upon lulls in the presentation
of evidence or appearances of witnesses, times to reflect, et cetera. And I`m assuming that this is pretty consistent with what typically occurs.
GRACE: To Shawn Parcells, forensic consultant who helped perform the autopsy in this case. Shawn, you have brought a torso with you. What`s
the significance?
SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSICS CONSULTANT: Well, I just want people to understand, walking through the gunshot wounds quickly, that the graze
wound that occurred to this part of the palm and the entry wound that came in here and the graze wound that occurred right here on the anterior part
of the elbow, could have come from different directions.
I put my arm up like this. It could have come from the front. If I put my arm down, like I`m walking away or running away, they could have
come from the back. Now, the one that happened to the upper part of the arm right here, which we call the brachial (ph) region, was definitely
coming from the front.
And that`s because that part of my arm, I can`t move towards my back. I mean, I`ve got to be facing the bullet as it`s coming in. And then, of
course, as we know, the one that hit above the right eyebrow and came out at the jawline here and re-entered right here, was coming at a downward
angle. And we also have an entry wound at the top of the head that was coming at the same angle.
And then we have one to the right side of the chest right here that was also representative of a re-entry wound. But we don`t know what wound
it corresponds to on the arm. Now, understand that the ones coming into the top of the head are coming in at an angle this way...
GRACE: Right.
PARCELLS: ... which is consistent with him falling towards the ground or his head, and the bullets coming down at him. So the critical piece
that we`re missing is the reconstruction of the shooting scene, which I`ve been talking about for a while now, which is very important. What happened
in the car? What`s the clothing look like?
GRACE: Exactly.
PARCELLS: Is there any gunshot...
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting that you guys still don`t have the clothing.
What you`re seeing right now is inside an autopsy room. All of this has a function, even this table, as you can see, the crease on the edge.
That is for the blood to drain on the sides of the table. That is a top- of-the-line autopsy table right there. If you could show it in full, please, because that table lifts up and down for purposes of taking bodies
in and out. Everything about what you`re seeing now is conducive to performing the autopsy.
With me right now, the director of law enforcement training, ESVIA, John Garafalo. You know, what do you make of the cop taking the stand?
JOHN GARAFALO, DIR. OF LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING, ESVIA: I think he`s going to have to take the stand, Nancy, to let us all know what happened
because it`s very convoluted case at this point. Now we have new evidence indicating four more shots were fired. So we`re going to have to match
those with the gun casings. And we`re going to have to hear his story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Natalee Holloway prime murder suspect Joran Van Der Sloot pleads guilty to the murder of another young girl he meets at a resort
casino. As we go to air tonight, we learn Joran Van Der Sloot moved to a remote Andean prison after he threatens to kill the warden. This is just
one month after Van Der Sloot`s wedding to his pregnant bride in jail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Video showing Van Der Sloot and the victim, Stephany Flores, entering a Lima hotel. Van Der Sloot leaves alone more
than three hours later. He leaves the hotel by himself, carrying a backpack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then over here, he has his own bathroom. As we`ve heard, it is a hole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out in Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent who visited the prison where Van Der Sloot housed. Jean Casarez, Van Der Sloot, A, you
know, had a shotgun wedding. He married his pregnant bride behind bars. And now -- there she is. This is the bride entering the jail for her
wedding to Joran Van Der Sloot. Is she actually signing autographs and people taking pictures of her?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh!
GRACE: That is Van Der Sloot`s pregnant bride. But not only that, just one month after he marries his pregnant bride behind bars -- I guess
they have conjugal visits -- he threatens his warden, and he has now been removed to a remote Andean prison?
CASAREZ: It looks like they took it very seriously, right, Nancy, because the prisons there are all outside of Peru (sic), the maximum
security prisons. And there`s several of them. But they intentionally moved him all the way to the mountains? So he`s not going to be near his
pregnant bride, number one. And number two, they believed that he was going to threaten this warden.
You know, Nancy, when I was in Peru, the warden, which was a different warden, is really the head of the prison, respected by all, respected by
the inmates. The warden I had the interview with -- he was assassinated several months after I spoke with him but by someone from the outside, not
someone from the inside.
GRACE: The murder of Natalee Holloway has never been solved, but many legal eagles believe that Joran Van Der Sloot is, in fact, responsible for
her death. Her body has never been found.
For those of you just joining us, the prime suspect in the murder of American teen Natalee Holloway not only has recently married his pregnant
bride behind bars, but in the last hours, we learn he threatens his warden and has been removed to a remote Andean prison.
Jean Casarez, do you know the nature of the threat on the warden?
CASAREZ: From everything we`re hearing, it was a verbal threat. And you know, verbal threats can come quite frequently from those behind bars,
right, especially those that are convicted of violent crime. They must have taken it serious, or they want to get him away from the pregnant
bride.
You know, she works inside the prison. And she met him that way, began to give him food and bring him food, homemade food. They allow that
in Peru. And then they began to have those conjugal visits, Nancy.
GRACE: You mean have sex behind bars.
CASAREZ: Yes.
GRACE: Let`s not put perfume...
CASAREZ: Sure.
GRACE: ... on the pig, Jean. So Joran Van Der Sloot...
CASAREZ: But you can`t wear a mini-skirt. Big sign...
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot murders...
CASAREZ: ... no mini-skirts allowed.
GRACE: ... two girls. One is, of course, Natalee Holloway. The other is Stephany Tatiana Flores. And let`s see the video of Joran Van Der
Sloot as he`s walking out of the murder scene at the hotel, the casino where he met Stephany Tatiana Flores. There you have him in the casino.
Now, this is where they met. Shortly after that, we see video, there they are. That`s the fateful moment where she walks up and sees Van Der Sloot,
there he is, seated at the table. Then not long after that, Joran Van Der Sloot is caught on video leaving -- there they go, some of the last video -
- there he is with his two coffees, leaving the murder scene. Check it out. There he`s pretending to knock at the door. Only he knows there`s a
dead body in there. Check it out. Knock knock knock. Yes, I know nobody`s coming. In that room is the dead body of Stephany Tatiana Flores.
He goes to jail on that. And as Jean says, in his jail in Peru, no mini skirts are allowed, but you can have full-on sex. He got a worker, an
employee there, pregnant. They just got married. Then he threatens to kill the warden. Clark Goldband, what more do you know?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, I can tell you this new prison Van Der Sloot has reportedly been sent to, certainly no picnic if some inmate accounts are to
be believed, Nancy.
GRACE: Am I supposed to feel sorry for him, Clark? Why are you telling me his jailhouse is no picnic?
GOLDBAND: Whether you want to feel sorry for him or not, I can tell you and assure you that based on what we`re seeing --
GRACE: Of course it`s not a picnic. This is not the scene in Mary Poppins where they`re all at the park.
GOLDBAND: Speaking of picnics, Nancy, one inmate on a foreign report -- and of course we cannot verify this -- said that they have not received
food for days. They`re often served food that`s old. They don`t have access to water. There`s only two telephone lines in the whole prison.
And Nancy, some reports even saying this may be a four-hour drive from the closest city.
GRACE: To Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified prosecutor, everybody, you`re seeing video from Youtube. Joran Van Der Sloot killed
Natalee Holloway. He drugged her, raped her, and killed her. He was never prosecuted for that in Aruba. Also, Stephany Tatiana Flores, another
murder victim of Joran Van Der Sloot`s. Am I supposed to be sad he`s going to a strict prison?
ODOM: Of course you`re not supposed to be sad. I think he`s getting exactly what he deserves. Remember, he could still be prosecuted for the
murder of Natalee Holloway if they ever find enough evidence or a body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: In the last hours, we have learned the prime suspect in the Natalee Holloway murder, Joran Van Der Sloot, has actually gotten an
employee there in his jail pregnant, married her, then threatened the warden with death. Joran Van Der Sloot has just been moved to a remote
Andean prison. To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, Dr. Dupre, I still haven`t given up in the case of Natalee
Holloway. If her body or any part of her body is found now, could he still be forensically proven to have raped or murdered her?
DUPRE: Nancy, that`s a tough question. It will depend on the condition of the body and what is found and how the actual murder took
place. Possibly, but it sure is a long shot.
GRACE: I know it`s a long shot. But DNA is forever. Isn`t that right, Dr. Dupre?
DUPRE: It`s not forever. But there are different kinds of DNA, two different kinds. Mitochondrial DNA is almost forever. Nuclear DNA, that`s
another story. That would be much harder to get, I assume.
GRACE: How long will mitochondrial DNA last?
DUPRE: It can last 50 years or so. There have been cases of at least that.
GRACE: Wow. Because we hear of cold cases all the time being solved with DNA that they couldn`t match up at the time. Everyone, in the middle
of all of this, Joran Van Der Sloot has been romancing a Florida female radiologist. Jean Casarez, a doctor, an M.D., a radiologist in Florida.
There she is. Believe it or not. Got snookered in, sucked into Joran Van Der Sloot`s web of lies and was actually devoting her time, her money,
visits to him in Peru. It goes on and on, Jean. What the hey?
CASAREZ: I don`t know, Nancy. I don`t know. We`ve known about her for a long time. When he was arrested and then before his trial, during
his trial, she was monetarily really I mean absolutely helping him as much as she could. And the question was why. And they wrote letters back and
forth. That`s how they got to know each other. That`s how it all happens, right? And they`re still in contact. And I don`t think there`s any
explanation.
GRACE: You know what, Jean, basic question what does he have that every other man in America doesn`t have. I don`t know what the answer to
that could be. But a Florida female doctor, a radiologist in love with Joran Van Der Sloot. Listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY HAMER: My guardian angel Mary, I`ve got a tear in my eye as I write this letter. And he goes on to say, I love you. Joran.
The more I know Joran, the more I see there`s a beautiful person there. He`s hurting. He`s struggling. He`s trying to improve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re not worried that this guy is going to completely take advantage of your kindness?
HAMER: No. No, I`m not. Even if he did, again, I`m an unconditional person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve never been curious to say, Joran, what happened with Natalee Holloway?
HAMER: No, no. It`s not my role. It`s not pity that got me involved. It`s compassion. It`s love for someone. I love him
unconditionally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to continue to give him money, to support him while he`s in prison?
HAMER: Yes. It will be in much more modest amounts. I`m going to ask for contracts now and ask people to give me receipts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you`ll send him money to help him while he`s in prison?
HAMER: Yes, I will.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And after he gets out, do you still hope he comes to live with you?
HAMER: He`s free to do whatever he wants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you would like him to come and live with you.
HAMER: I don`t have any -- I don`t handcuff relationships.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. But you would like him to come and live with you.
HAMER: Under a Gandhi program, where I rehabilitate him. With President Obama and President Humala`s blessing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. That`s Dr. Hamer on NBC Today and on Anderson`s show. Whoa! According to her, she has broken up with him, okay? I can`t imagine
what could have caused that breakup. Possibly the two murders? I don`t know. Joran Van Der Sloot has now been moved to a remote Andean prison.
But Caryn Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York, we also believe that his bride who he meets behind bars may be traveling to live near that
Andean prison with Joran Van Der Sloot`s baby.
STARK: Well, Nancy, she couldn`t have had much of a life to begin with or she wouldn`t have been attracted to him. And just like the doctor
that you showed, there are certain women that feel so terrible about themselves that they don`t really care what the man is about or whether
he`s a murderer. They just want that connection. He also is somebody who everybody knows. He has notoriety. So through that, they get their own
notoriety and attention, even if it`s negative attention.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When I hear the name Halee Cummings, so many thoughts collide in my mind. Both caregivers, the dad and the live-in girlfriend, being
involved in drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, baby. Baby.
GRACE: To the moment I recall Halee`s father screaming and bending over double in the front yard when they couldn`t find his little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want my child back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now to White Hills, Arizona, caught on video, the fateful seconds before a 9-year-old little girl shoots her gun instructor dead with
an Uzi! We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Video showing the final moments of instructor Charlie Vaca`s life. The 9-year-old`s Uzi kicks back, and a bullet is
fired into Vaca.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just like losing a brother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 9-year-old girl at a shooting range with an Uzi? Clearly it`s an accident when she loses control of the Uzi. A 9-year-old little
girl? Being taught to fire an Uzi? Dan O`Donnell, joining me, WISN, what`s going on?
O`DONNELL: This place, this shooting range is known as Burgers and Bullets, does allow girls as young as 8 or boys for that matter to shoot
Uzis so long as their parents are present, Nancy. So this is being investigated as an accident, a workplace accident. OSHA is involved. And
the local sheriff`s department does tell us that this is in fact an accident.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Sam Scarmardo, the operator at the Arizona Last Stop. What happened, Sam? I didn`t understand that children
as young as 9 years old could be wielding an Uzi.
SAM SCARMARDO, OPERATOR, SHOOTING RANGE WHERE INSTRUCTOR WAS KILLED: Well, it`s pretty much standard practice. We have a national association
called the NASR, National Association of Shooting Ranges. Their recommendations with us is not to let children younger than 8 shoot, and
anybody 8 years old and older under parental guidance and strict supervision of a professional. That`s all of our guys are professional.
NRA-trained professional. Not an everyday occurrence. I don`t know of any other -- anything like this ever happening anywhere else. It`s just -- the
video pretty much -- you`ve seen the video. All I`ve ever seen is the Youtube version. I understand they`re releasing the full video to the
media.
GRACE: What exactly do you think happened, Sam?
SCARMARDO: I couldn`t tell you. You`re going to have to let OSHA and the sheriff`s office decide that. I understand verbally the sheriff`s
office has cleared us of any wrongdoing. Obviously we`ve lost a very important and integral member of our family. And our associates, our
employees are considered family. We operate the Arizona Last Stop -- the Bullets and Burgers is just a nickname, so it`s not -- the Bullets and
Burgers is not the name; it`s actually Arizona Last Stop. We`re just under contract to operate the gun range out there. We own and operate a range in
Lake Halverson City, an indoor range.
GRACE: Also joining me, Jean Casarez. Jean, I`m just stunned that a child, a nine-year-old child can be handed an Uzi. What`s your
understanding of what happened?
CASAREZ: We`re looking at the video right here. This is the little girl. If you look, she`s got an instructor who is the victim in all of
this. He`s trying to position her feet. She does not look that comfortable. Initially, one shot goes off and you hear his voice saying
that he`s going to put it on the automatic. We`re talking about a machine gun. Think about the state of mind and the physical stance that you need.
You and I shoot guns, Nancy. You know it`s going to recoil. As an adult, you know that. But does she know -- did she know that that gun was going
to go up over her head when all of those bullets fly out? That`s how the instructor was hit.
GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist, this little girl, nine years old is going to know for the rest of her life that she shot somebody dead with an
Uzi. As if you don`t have enough problems growing up. What about that?
STARK: It`s so hard to understand how this happened, Nancy. She will be traumatized. There`s no doubt. She`s going to need a lot of help.
Even though it`s an accident, she`s nine. She shot someone. Look at her, she`s so tiny. How could they not anticipate the recoil, that she would be
able to hold on to it, makes no sense at all. Why do it? What`s the joy in even videotaping something like this?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A nine-year-old little girl caught on tape learning to fire an Uzi, kills her gun instructor at a shooting range. The weapon recoiled
over her shoulder. The whole incident caught on tape. A nine-year-old little girl with an Uzi? Sal Bertocci, joining me, ballistic expert. Sal,
what would she have experienced when this occurred, the recoil? It`s automatic. How many bullets fire out of an Uzi and how quickly?
SAL BERTOCCI, BALLISTICS EXPERT: OK. The rate of fire for an Uzi is about a thousand rounds per minute. So as long as there`s ammunition in
the weapon, it`s going to continue to fire as long as you`re holding the trigger down.
When you look at the video, she fires the one shot, and even after that first shot, she didn`t look completely comfortable firing the gun to
begin with, even when it was on semi-auto. I do not know what the instructor was thinking by letting her fire in full auto.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Peter and Eleanor. We had to train with guns to be district attorneys, and many prosecutors carry guns with them.
I remember the first time I ever fired a gun. There was an incredible recoil. I can`t imagine firing an Uzi, much less as a nine-year-old little
girl. Should there be a prosecution in this case?
E. ODOM: I was just thinking about that, Nancy.
GRACE: Not against the girl, not the little girl`s fault.
E. ODOM: It seems to me that the parents are the issue. They`re the ones who took her there, they are the ones I imagine gave permission for
the Uzi. But under the law there, they`re not liable.
GRACE: Peter?
P. ODOM: I don`t know who thought that was a good idea, Nancy. But what`s interesting is -- I find is that -- I`m no firearms expert, but this
gun, if she`s right-handed, it`s going to recoil to the left, and I`m seeing the instructor standing right there at her left. It seems to me a
lapse in judgment. Somebody should be held accountable, but Arizona law apparently allows this kind of behavior.
GRACE: Back to Sam Scarmardo, the operator of the Last Stop there. So is it nine or ten years old that children are allowed to shoot guns?
SCARMARDO: Well, under the regulations of the, you know, what you call suggestions of the National Association of Shooting Ranges, they don`t
recommend anybody younger than eight shooting firearms.
GRACE: Eight, eight. And this little girl was nine.
SCARMARDO: She was nine. This was something she wanted to do for the weekend. We`re not the only shooting range in and around Las Vegas.
GRACE: I appreciate that. I really do. But my little boy, he`s six and he wants to fly. But you know what I said? No, John David. You`re
not going to fly. It`s not safe. Matt Zarrell, what`s the fallout from this?
ZARRELL: The fallout is the police have been investigating it. They say as of right now, no charges are pending. The facility is licensed and
legal and is in operation.
GRACE: Okay. Everyone, a nine-year-old girl being handed an Uzi, and it`s apparently a-OK under the law in Arizona. Guns down the gun
instructor. He`s a father, a married father. A veteran. Loses his life.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Private First Class Matthew Taylor, 21, Cameron Park, California, Army Airborne Badge. Loved
video game Halo, martial arts, sushi and guitar. Parents Richard and Patty, sister Heather. Matthew Taylor, American hero.
Drew up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
