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Nancy Grace
Schizophrenic Mom Still Missing With Children
Aired September 11, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live in the desperate search for a missing Maryland mother, a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic
believed on the run with her two little children, 2-year-old Jacob, 3-year- old Sarah, last seen in a gray Nissan Rogue, all three in grave danger. Grainy surveillance video emerges. We have the video.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, will a new tip from the public help crack the case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catherine Hoggle and two of their three children are missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want my children here with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Catherine herself has been spotted. She was alone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) feels like she`s protecting them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Olympic superstar Oscar Pistorius, the "Blade Runner," shoots to fame, breaking world records even on prosthetic blades, guns down
his girlfriend. In the last hours, the judge rules from the bench -- no jury -- Oscar Pistorius not guilty of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors call it a case of premeditated murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Olympic star is charged with the premeditated murder of Steenkamp. She was shot and killed by Pistorius inside the
bathroom of his home on Valentine`s Day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The allegations are chilling. Authorities say Pistorius shot to death model Reeva Steenkamp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That from ABC`s "GMA."
And to Bell Plaines (ph), Minnesota. After a long day of work, Mommy comes home to find Daddy asleep in bed, her brand-new baby boy, Carson (ph),
asleep on Daddy`s arm, purple and dead! Tonight, Daddy`s stories including one he trips over the cat, don`t add up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Carson`s mother had come home during a break to find her 2-month-old son in bed next to his father, purple and not
breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live with the desperate search for a missing Maryland mother, a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic believed on the run with her two
little children, 2-year-old Jacob, 3-year-old Sarah, last seen in a gray Nissan Rogue, all three in grave danger. Grainy surveillance video
emerges. We have the video.
In the last hours, will a new tip from the public help crack the case? For those of you joining us tonight that can hear our voices on the radio,
please help us. This mother, diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, we have confirmed in the last hours is off her medication. This is a very, very
serious mental illness. Her children that are with her ages just 2 and 3 years old, and the last we heard of her, she was covering her tracks as
Daddy tried to find out where are his children.
Out to John Domen with WNEW. John, what`s the latest?
JOHN DOMEN, WNEW (via telephone): Well, police are telling us now that, you know, McDonald`s in the Montgomery County area may be a place that she
could be seen at, that pretty much, she eats there every single day. Iced coffees, is what we`ve learned, and Dr. Pepper drinks especially kind of be
-- tend to be her favorite, I think the sugar fix related to some of the medications that she had stopped taking a little while ago.
GRACE: Joining me also, in addition to John Domen, is Captain Darren Francke, Montgomery County police major crimes division. Captain, thank
you for being with us. So let`s see a map, Liz, if you could show me the various McDonald`s in her area. This is a drink she goes for every day.
Now, she was last seen at a Chick-fil-A. Her husband was asking, was pressuring, Where are the children? She left. We don`t know where she
went. But there she is, acting cool as a cucumber in Chick-fil-A, caught on grainy surveillance video.
Captain Francke, I understand police have found her pocketbook?
CAPT. DARREN FRANCKE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: We`ve found the contents of her pocketbook. We have not found her pocketbook yet.
GRACE: Interesting. Interesting, how one little nuance can make such a difference, Captain, because when you say, We found the contents of her
pocketbook, that suggests to me that her pocketbook was emptied because -- you know, I`m sure you don`t carry a lady`s purse, but all the stuff in
your pocketbook -- you don`t just take it out and leave it and then take off with your pocketbook.
What do we know about the contents of her pocketbook, Captain Francke, and what does that tell you about her possible location?
FRANCKE: There were various paperwork, identification, things that normal people would carry in their pocketbook. She could have been startled by
someone in the building that she was in and it caused her to dump it. She could also have purposefully thrown them out. When you come in contact
with the police on the street, one of the first things we ask for is identification. That would make it more difficult to identify who she is.
GRACE: Do you think she`s thinking to that level? And was there anything in the area where you found the contents of her pocket book that would
suggest her children are with her?
FRANCKE: There`s nothing to suggest the children are with her. And it`s been 72 hours, over 72 hours now, that those children have not been with
someone, a parent, a known relative, anyone responsible that we know of.
GRACE: And to top that all off, Captain Francke, we know she lied. She lied to her husband and said the little boy had gone to a sleepover. And
you know, at that age, age 2, children aren`t going to sleepovers, unless maybe staying with their grandparent. You don`t send a 2-year-old off to
stay at a friend`s house overnight. That`s just unheard of. So that`s a lie. That`s been confirmed to be a lie. She also told the father they
were at day care. That`s a lie.
I was just hoping against hope, Captain, that there would be some clue, baby food, a bottle, a blanket, something, a barrette, something to suggest
the child was there where the contents of her purse were found.
With me is Captain Darren Francke. Captain Francke, can you share with us where the contents of the purse were found?
FRANCKE: They were found in a bathroom, in a women`s room in a building that`s up around the Chick-fil-A. We don`t want it identify the building
because we`re still using -- we`re still cooperating with the business owners to find out if she may have taken anything from any of the desks, if
she would have made any phone calls. So we`re working through those potential leads, and we don`t want to jeopardize anything as far as that
goes.
GRACE: OK, Captain Francke, I understand that. But the little bit that you did say, could you repeat that? It was found emptied out in a women`s
bathroom. On the floor, in the trash can, where?
FRANCKE: Just in the general vicinity of the bathroom. I don`t want to go into too many details, as again, you have a pattern of lies. I don`t want
to talk too much about the specifics as we still need to talk to Catherine when we do find her and find out exactly what happened.
GRACE: OK. Very quickly, Captain Francke, please don`t move. Our lines are jammed right now with viewers trying to help find the Maryland mother
diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. She`s got her two children with her.
In a nutshell, Bethany Marshall, and I know that`s very hard for lawyers, psychiatrists and psychologists to do, but if she is in the middle of a
paranoid schizophrenic delusion, we`re in trouble.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, we are, because with schizophrenia, you have hallucinations, delusions and psychotic thinking.
But paranoid schizophrenics in particular become preoccupied with their delusions. So if the delusion is that God is telling her to get rid of her
children or that her husband is Satan or that the police are Satan`s force or anything -- it`s hard to guess what she might be thinking, but it would
be of a paranoid nature.
She is so lost in the delusion right now that she`s preoccupied with it and is not thinking about the surround. She`s not thinking about her children,
her husband or anybody in a benign and thoughtful way. She`s just lost in her own thoughts.
GRACE: Speaking of the husband, we have just gotten word from him. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess just doing what I can. I mean, I don`t really feel like interiorly (ph), I am holding up, but I kind of have to.
(INAUDIBLE) I want my children here with me.
I believe it`s probably the opposite of wanting to hurt them. I believe, in some ways, she feels like she`s protecting them.
Like I said, I don`t have any comment right now. I`m letting the police figure stuff out. Right now, we just -- I just want my freaking kids back.
That`s it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So back to Captain Darren Francke, Montgomery County police major crimes division. Captain Francke, the last person that she spoke with is
the husband, the father of the children. Now, I know I see her on the Chick-fil-A video, but do we have any corroboration that that`s true? And
I`m not casting doubt on the father, I`m just trying to corroborate what I believe we know tonight.
FRANCKE: Yes. We have proof that the father (INAUDIBLE) I`ll say the whole family has -- has been extraordinary in helping us, giving us
information on Catherine, Jacob and Sarah. And we feel very comfortable with our relationship with them and what they`ve been doing with us. And
they`ve given us some great information that we can work towards trying to find them.
GRACE: Captain, let me ask you another question. You`re saying that the contents of the purse were found in the vicinity of a women`s bathroom, and
that it was near that same McDonald`s or no?
FRANCKE: It`s in the same general area as the Chick-fil-A. And there is a McDonald`s in the area.
GRACE: Well, that seems to say to me, Captain Francke, that she left the Chick-fil-A, got the slip on her husband, and she`s been going in and out
of these buildings. But that still leaves me, begs the question, where are the children?
Everyone, take a look at this mom, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, on the run with her two little children, ages 2 an 3. Now, I couldn`t help
but notice the husband stated, Maybe she feels she`s protecting them.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Susan Moss, New York, Mike Gottlieb, Fort Lauderdale, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta. Sue Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If Mom is schizophrenic and paranoid, she could snap! Just ask Freud! First she tells her parents that the son was
on an overnight play date.
GRACE: Right.
MOSS: She also told the father that these kids were at a mythical day care place that never existed. She`s making up lie after lie and been trying to
hide that -- the children`s disappearance. And to me, that can only mean trouble.
GRACE: Gottlieb?
MIKE GOTTLIEB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s clearly exhibiting classic signs of paranoid schizophrenia. She`s delusional. She`s probably having
hallucinations. She`s trying to protect herself, covering her tracks. She`s not been seen with the children. We don`t even know if she`s
committed a crime yet. She`s hiding and covering. She`s a lady who`s got significant problems. We need to find her and ensure that she doesn`t hurt
the children.
GRACE: OK, Peter Odom, we do know that she has the children. Gottlieb is wrong on that. I mean, maybe you two defense lawyers can argue it in
court. But we know, according to the grandparents, she had the little boy, age 2, with them, and she said they`re going to go get pizza. She comes
back, no little boy. She was the last person known to be with the child. Same thing with the little girl. She tells the dad she took the baby to
day care, to a fake day care.
So why is she lying, Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we don`t know, Nancy. But right now, the why isn`t as important as the what. We have a diagnosed paranoid
schizophrenic...
GRACE: I know that!
ODOM: We have a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. She`s got very disorganized thinking. These are children that are a very tender age.
They need care. She can`t give it to them.
GRACE: Well, I agree with that, Peter. You`re repeating what I am just saying, all right? I need a new idea. We need fresh ideas to find this
woman because when we find this woman, maybe we can figure out where are the children. For all I know, she sold them on the sidewalk, Peter Odom!
ODOM: Well, she might have delusions about the children. She might have delusions about having to protect the children. The problem is, paranoid
schizophrenia is so unpredictable that...
GRACE: It is.
ODOM: ... it`s an emergency situation. You don`t know which way it could go.
GRACE: OK, Sue, Sue, give me the nutshell of the order of events. Let`s refresh the recollection of the two defense attorneys.
MOSS: Well, the first thing that happens is Mom went with that little boy, Joshua (sic) and was with her parents. Then she said, Oh, I`m taking him
out for pizza. Instead, she says that she dropped him off on an overnight play date, and she came back. She had not had any pizza, and there was no
signs that any pizza had ever been purchased.
Then the next day, she tells the father that she`s taking the kids to a day care, that there`s some special freebie opportunity to try out a new day
care. That place never exists. And when Dad went with her and searched all around town to try to find this mythical day care, she finally, you
know...
GRACE: Oh! Oh!
MOSS: ... realized and told them, just like tot mom...
GRACE: Sue...
MOSS; Just like tot mom!
GRACE: Sue, this is making me sick! It sounds like a nightmare that I`ve actually had before, when you`re searching and you`re searching for that
missing person, and you`re going down the street and you`re looking -- imagine?
To Captain Darren Francke. Can you imagine the father in the car, and he`s trying to believe his wife and they`re driving down the street after street
after street, trying to find this day care where she got the free X number of hours, and it doesn`t exist?
FRANCKE: Yes, it`s quite extraordinary. As a father, I just can`t imagine, you know, being in that position and -- yes, it`s just
extraordinary, and that`s what all our investigators are focused on, the oddities of this case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catherine disappeared and Troy (ph) contacted police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catherine had taken their 2-year-old son, Jacob, and 3- year-old daughter, Sarah, somewhere and wouldn`t say where.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have grave concerns over the welfare of the children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Compounding the fear, the fact that Catherine Hoggle, the missing mother, is diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Please help us in the hunt for this woman. Hoggle has her two little children with letter, and tonight, hope
is dwindling that they are still alive. She`s paranoid schizophrenic. That means anything may have happened. In an odd twist, it may actually
suggest the children are alive. For all we know, she`s handed them off to someone else.
Captain Francke, do we know whether the children -- they`re only 2 and 3. Do they know their phone number. Would they be able to tell a stranger who
they are?
FRANCKE: We`re not quite clear if they would be able do that, again. They`re -- I`m sure they are quite traumatized, especially the 2-year-old
quite traumatized. The 3-year-old, as well. I do know they`re not with any responsible adult that`s known to the family. So they could be very
shy, and if they`re with Mom, they may completely avoid strangers because they don`t know what`s going on around them.
GRACE: You know, Stacey Newman, I understand that we have a new tip about a playground?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. A new tip has come in to investigators about a -- actually, a local park in the area.
So cops have searched that park thoroughly, and we are now hearing it is actually one of 10 separate locations that have been searched in this
investigation.
GRACE: Is that true, Captain Francke?
FRANCKE: Yes. Part of our investigation, we have our managed search operation team out, based on information we`ve collected. They are going
to various parks, wooded areas, and also communities to search everywhere to see if we can find Jacob and Sarah and Catherine.
GRACE: OK, what do we know about the grandparents, John Domen, WNEW? It is my understanding, John, that the father -- and you may all be wondering
-- here`s one of the parks we are talking about, the 10 different locations being searched by police. It`s my understanding John Domen, WNEW, that the
father had laid down the law that the mom was not to be left alone with the children.
How did she get alone with the children? Whose great idea was it to let her go to get pizza with the 2-year-old baby?
DOMEN: I don`t understand how that may have happened. I do know that, yes, family members had sort of an informal house rule that they didn`t
want to leave Catherine alone with those kids. Troy mentioned that to one of our other reporters he had been talking with. So just kind of how that
happened on Sunday and again on Monday -- I`m sure that`s one of the things police are going to be looking into. But we haven`t really been able to
figure out all the series of events yet.
GRACE: Captain, another question about this tip. When you found out that the contents of her purse had been found near this women`s bathroom, a
restroom in a public building, I`m assuming someone found ID. I mean, how do you know that`s her stuff?
And also, Captain Francke, was it an anonymous tipster that claims they saw her in the playground? And if they did see her, question three, did she
have the children with her, according to the tipster?
FRANCKE: So there was identification in the contents of the purse, and that`s what led them to call us and started our investigation there. As
far as the park goes, that did not come from a tip. That has come from the analysis that we`ve done in talking with the family and looking at some
other data that we can collect on her whereabouts. And our managed search operators are just making very educated decisions on where to search. And
then the third part, no, she -- well, obviously, she hasn`t been seen with the children at all.
GRACE: OK, everyone, please, help us. We joined the search. Join us. We are looking for Catherine Hoggle, a young mom, just 27, diagnosed with
paranoid schizophrenia. She has her two children with her, a 2-year-old and a 3-year-old.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... hunting for the missing Clarksburg mom and any sign of her two children, seen in this surveillance video. That`s when she
slipped out of the Chick-fil-A restaurant as her husband was headed to talk to police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where can they be? And what is going on in this woman`s mind as to why she needs to hide her children from the grandparents, from the husband,
from everybody?
Captain Francke -- Captain Darren Francke with us, Montgomery County police, major crimes division. You know, there`s one little detail we
haven`t covered. Is it true that Mommy spent the night in an undisclosed building last night?
FRANCKE: Not last night. That would be Monday night into Tuesday, which is the last time we saw her at the 4:40 AM. On Tuesday, we saw her on
video.
GRACE: OK, now on video -- what did you see on video?
FRANCKE: We saw her enter this location, and then in viewing the rest of the video, we saw her exiting the location.
GRACE: So you see her. And can you divulge what time of the day or night it was?
FRANCKE: Sure. So she -- approximately 7:20 on Monday evening, and then she left at approximately 4:$40 million, which put her out on the area that
we`ve discussed, route 118. The Chick-fil-A is there. There`s a McDonald`s up the street some.
GRACE: 4:40 AM or 4:40 the next...
FRANCKE: 4:40 AM, yes.
GRACE: So she`s there overnight. Now, I can tell by the way you`re talking, Captain Francke, you`re not going to give me the building, the
name of the building. But why didn`t anybody notice her? Had they all gone home for the day, so they didn`t notice her slipping in and spending
the night?
FRANCKE: We`re still trying to determine that. Again, as you look at the Chick-fil-A video, she`s acting quite normal. She`s acting...
GRACE: There you go.
FRANCKE: There`s no affects to her that -- you know, passing by you and me on the road without -- on the street without knowing that something is
wrong, she wouldn`t catch your attention.
GRACE: You know, the point -- and yes, I want to find her, but the point is not her. The point is the children, Jacob and Sarah, ages 2 and 3.
John Domen, WNEW, I`m not going to get it out of Captain Francke. Any idea -- I`m not asking the location. Do you have any idea what kind of
building, and what would have led her to that building to spend the night in? I mean, how would you know to just go in this building and you could
find a place to hide and spend the night?
JOHN DOMEN, REPORTER, ALL NEWS 99.1 WNEW: That`s something that we were asking Captain Frank about earlier today, too. What kind of building it
was. And he was being as tight-lipped with us about it. And I`m sure he has his reasons for it, I`m not going to question those. But it`s clear
that, you know, that`s where she left those belongings that were inside her purse at some point and certainly in an area that has a lot of different
buildings of different kinds. And --
GRACE: For all I know, those children are secreted away in some little corner or crevice there. No telling what they`re being told. I just pray
to God the children are alive. Very often we don`t see a happy ending.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Eight-month-old Gabriel Johnson vanished just after Christmas 2009. Mom allegedly claims to the boy`s father that she
suffocated him. But Elizabeth Johnson also told the judge she gave Gabriel away to be with a real loving family.
Today no sign of 6-year-old Timothy Pitzen after his mom took him out of school and ran off. Days later she was found dead from suicide in a motel
room.
Another bizarre case, Dwight Stalling`s mother allegedly said she gave the baby away to strangers in burqas.
Bonnie Sweeten, allegedly staged an elaborate kidnap hoax calling 911 saying she and her 9-year-old girl were carjacked by two men. Prosecutors
said it was a plot to swindle hundreds of thousands in ransom money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Olympic superstar, Oscar Pistorius, the Blade Runner, shoots to fame breaking world records even on prosthetic blades, guns down his
unarmed girlfriend as she cowers in the bathroom beside the commode.
In the last hours, the judge rules from the bench, there is no jury. Oscar Pistorius, not guilty of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oscar Pistorius, as you`ve never seen him before. And in these pictures uncovered by Sky News, the athlete shows his prowess
at handling a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take responsibility for what you`ve done.
OSCAR PISTORIUS, OLYMPIC ATHLETE: I`ll take responsibility by me waiting and not willing risk my life but waiting for my time on this stand to tell
my story for the respect of Reeva.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was Oscar Pistorius. You can hardly understand a thing he says. Probably because he was crying or, excuse me, snotting his way
through his courtroom appearance in front of the judge. Sometimes even lying down on the floor. Having to have his psych, his shrink come and rub
his head and his hair.
All right, you`d think that didn`t work. Well, guess what? That interspersed with all that ma lady, ma lady, ma lady to the judge. He`s
walking on murder charges. Boom. That is the verdict. From the bench, no jury.
Now, the jury, the jury is still out, on whether he will be convicted of a lesser charge. But he is walking, not guilty, on murdering his lover,
model, Reeva Steenkamp.
Straight out to Noma Bolani, reporter, SABC, in court.
Noma, thank you for being with us. Was everybody stunned?
NOMA BOLANI, REPORTER, SABC RADIO: Yes, I think everybody was kind of shocked by the judgment that was given by Thokozile Masipa. A lot of
(INAUDIBLE) debating if whether she made the right reasoning in terms of her findings. Many of them saying that from her findings she should have
been able to find, you know, a case of murder (INAUDIBLE) with someone who actions where he should have perceived that if he had pulled that trigger
and shot through -- four shots through the door, he would have killed someone, because he already knew there was someone behind the door.
GRACE: Right. With me, Noma Bolani, joining me from Pretoria.
Also with us, Mandy Weiner, Eyewitness News senior reporter and co-author of "Tragic Night: The Oscar Pistorius Murder Trial." Also in court.
Mandy, what was so amazing to me is why we have the jury system here in America, that this judge actually said from the bench, that she chose to
disbelieve all of the witnesses that heard a woman screaming and chose to believe that that was Oscar Pistorius. That somehow, with his deep voice
that we heard in court, when he starts screaming, he sounds like a girl. Really?
MANDY WEINER, EYEWITNESS NEWS SENIOR REPORTER: Well, of course, this is the big difference between South Africa and America, the fact that we have
a judge system and you have a jury system. And what it comes down to here is the law more than anything else. You don`t get that gut feeling that
you would necessarily get from a jury that could sway a decision. We have a judge who has to make a finding on implementing the law. And not so much
on the emotion and the sensitivities and harsh --
GRACE: Well, you know, that`s interesting you would say that, Mandy, because I choose to see it -- crime scene photos. You can see she was
cowering unarmed beside the commode and Pistorius is beating the door down and shooting her, and here, Mandy, we base our decisions on the facts and
the law. Not emotion. In fact, juries are very carefully instructed in the United States not to be swayed by emotion.
What concerns me is this. Take a listen to what the witnesses said. It absolutely was a woman screaming which means Pistorius knew it was his
lover that had just gotten out of bed with him, Reeva Steenkamp.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman screaming and a man screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oscar Pistorius as you`ve never seen him before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I heard the three gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conclusion that it was a woman scream.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Woman continued screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The gunshots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I also heard a man screaming for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Started screaming with intensity and the fear in her voice is (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just said she heard somebody scream.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear that this person`s life is in danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After the gunshots, only once I heard the screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The shots followed by screams of a woman and then further shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And right there, you hear Pistorius screaming out at the firing range. He didn`t sound like a girl to me.
Mandy Weiner, Eyewitness News senior reporter, that`s what I`m talking about. Multiple witnesses say they heard Reeva Steenkamp, the murder
victim. The shooting victim, screaming. So if she`s screaming, he has to know it`s her behind the door. The judge said it was a mistake.
WEINER: No, because there were 10 neighbors that recalled in entirety, that was five for prosecution, five for Oscar Pistorius`s defense. The
prosecution witnesses, they lived further away. They said that they heard a woman screaming. To them it sounded like a woman. The neighbors that
were recalled by Oscar Pistorius, for his defense team, they live right next door, they live really close to him. They say that they heard a man
screaming.
And today the judge said that she couldn`t rely on those neighbors from far away because they were really far away. That they missed some of the
noises. They were hazy as they woke up in their sleep. That an acoustics expert had come to testify that they couldn`t differentiate between men and
women and that even an ex-girlfriend, Samantha Taylor, of Oscar Pistorius`, had been forced to concede in court that she didn`t know what Oscar
Pistorius sounded like when he was in life in danger situations.
So that`s the evidence the judge relied on to show that it couldn`t be convincing that it was absolutely a woman screaming. She also looked at
the pathologist report, the forensic report, which showed that Oscar fired in quick succession. This didn`t allow time for Reeva Steenkamp to scream.
She wouldn`t have been able to scream because of the debilitating nature of her injuries. So it couldn`t have been her screaming.
And there were only two people in the room, Oscar and Reeva. And if it wasn`t Reeva screaming, it must have been Oscar screaming after he had shot
and after he had realized what he had done.
GRACE: That`s a very, very interesting scenario, and well put, Mandy Weiner. Joining me in court today.
Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, (INAUDIBLE), Peter Odom.
So this is where it leads us, Sue Moss. It leaves us with Oscar Pistorius telling the female judge that he was afraid. He heard a sound. He got up,
he closed the door, or the window at the balcony. He comes back. He is worried. He lays down at the bedside where Reeva Steenkamp had been
sleeping. Eye level with where her body would be if she were asleep. Gets his gun. Goes to the bathroom. Sees the closed door. He shoots his
girlfriend dead with three bullet with nine millimeter.
So how do you explain gunning down your girlfriend, that is stated in text, I`m afraid of you? How do you get around that? It`s not self-defense.
She`s unarmed. What can you do? What can you do? What can you do?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: It`s unbelievable, how do you get around that he says he went under the bed and got the gun but
didn`t realize that the side of the bed where she allegedly was sleeping, nobody`s there. How do you get around the fact that the bathroom door was
locked? OK? You don`t lock the door if you`re going to the bathroom in the middle of the night with your boyfriend there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And tonight, to Belle Plaine, Minnesota. After a long day at work, mommy comes home to find daddy asleep in bed, her brand new baby boy
Carson, lying there on daddy`s arm, purple and dead.
Tonight, daddy`s stories including that he tripped over the cat don`t add up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 24-year-old dad is accused of murdering his 2- month-old baby who police say suffered multiple injuries during his very short life. Little Carson`s mother had come home during a break to find
her 2-month-old son in bed next to his father, purple and not breathing. And the infant was pronounced dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, Adam Carter, editor at WCCO.
Adam, thank you for being with us. So the mom comes home from work. The father is asleep in bed. The baby, Baby Carson, lying on his arm, purple
and dead.
ADAM CARTER, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, NEWS RADIO 830 WCCO: Yes, Nancy. Thanks for having me first of all. I can`t imagine that mother coming home for
her lunch break from work and seeing that sight. Joshua Sundblad in bed with that child, as you mentioned, wrapped up and blue, and it was her
screams that woke Joshua Sundblad up. Just a horrible story.
GRACE: Well, you know what? We`re not letting it go. I don`t buy daddy`s story. One of his changing stories that he tripped over the cats and fell
because there are injuries on this child that suggest to me something much more sinister happened.
Very often when cases involve children, especially infants, they get pled down to a sweetheart deal, as if the baby doesn`t matter. Well, it matters
to me.
But right now, CNN HEROES.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARTHUR BLOOM, CNN HERO: Music is my earliest memory. I never decided to be a professional musician. It`s just what I`ve always done. It feels
great to play music. But it`s also a mechanism for healing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were on this patrol walking down a road. I had never been hit by an IED before. I felt like I got hit by a wrecking ball.
I sat up, my legs were completely gone.
What happens if you don`t quite get killed and you don`t quite survive? You`re somewhere in the middle? I was a shell of a man. Who I was, was
gone.
BLOOM: Let`s take it right before the melody comes in.
Our organization helps Wounded Warriors play music and recover their lives. We match the injured troops with professional musicians who come visit at
Walter Reed Medical Center and work with them on music projects, learning music, writing and performing.
We`re going to try to incorporate a little more metal.
I`m not a music therapist, I`m a musician. But by injecting music into this space, we can inject wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something that survived that horrible injury in Afghanistan. And that was my ability to play the guitar. Arthur and his
program changed my outlook on what is possible.
BLOOM: Music has no stigma. Folks we work with, when they do music, there`s nothing injured about the way they do it. It`s just good music.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Mommy comes home from work to find her baby lying on the husband`s arm. The husband, of course, is asleep in bed in the middle of the day,
and the -- not judging. And the baby is purple and dead.
To Dr. Vincent DiMaio, forensic pathologist.
Dr. DiMaio, what leaps out at you on this story?
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, M.D., FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The skull fracture and the brain injuries, that`s the primary cause of death. And the fact that there
are -- that there were rib fractures, both recent and old, indicates that there`s been child abuse for a while, a couple of weeks probably.
GRACE: You know, what this infant endured in his short life is so disturbing.
With me also is Ron Hocevar, chief deputy, Scott County Attorney.
Ron, thank you for being with us. What do you -- is it possible -- what is the maximum possible he could be prosecuted with?
RON HOCEVAR, CHIEF DEPUTY, SCOTT COUNTY ATTORNEY: Nancy, well, thank you for having me, first of all. I appreciate it. As you indicated, these
types of deaths are just gut wrenching. Right now he`s charged with third degree murder, and the maximum punishment under the Minnesota statutes is
imprisonment for not more than 25 years. But that`s what we call the legislative --
GRACE: What is third-degree murder versus first-degree murder? I mean, the child has preexisting injuries.
HOCEVAR: That`s correct. Under Minnesota law, first-degree murder can only be done through an indictment by a grand jury. Right now, the county
attorney`s office is charge with -- has charged Mr. Sundblad with third- degree murder based on the injuries that have happened and the cause of the injuries and the extent of the injuries.
GRACE: Everyone, take a look at Baby Carson. Carson Scott, just 2 months old.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Army Staff Sergeant Roy Lewsader Jr., 36, Clinton, Indiana. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved music and guitar.
Mother Beverly, brother Mark, widow Melissa. Four daughters, one son.
Roy Lewsader, Jr. American hero.
And tonight, we remember the thousands who lost their lives September 11th.
We pay tribute and honor to those, those emergency workers, military, everyone who put themselves in harm`s way for our freedom.
And tonight, good night from friends Brenda, Eva and Tracy. Aren`t they beautiful?
Everyone, Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
