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Nancy Grace
Man Snatches Girl He Met on Disney Web Site
Aired September 15, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, every parent`s worst nightmare. Her parents think she`s safe when their little girl goes on a
Disney Pixie Hollow Fairies Web site, but little did Mommy and Daddy know when she goes missing from the front yard of her Connecticut home, she had
been snatched by a sex predator lurking on the Disney Fairies Web site. You can see it here at Disney.com.
Bombshell tonight. After snatching the little girl from her home in Connecticut, he literally takes her on a cross-country trek. He calls it
their honeymoon. In the last hours, we learn the little girl spotted in a multi-housing apartment complex, Colorado.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 53-year-old man is accused of meeting a young girl on a Disney Web site.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had taken her on what he called a honeymoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He drove from Longmont to Connecticut, and then returned to Longmont with her -- 14 years old...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was Pixie Hollow from Disney.com.
And then to Santa Ana, California, a married mother of a 4-year-old little girl facing hard jail time as she admits she orchestrates killing
her rapist with a meat cleaver.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says he raped her in her dorm room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All I knew was that wanted to survive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They allege he was brutally beaten, hacked (ph) on the back of the head several times with a meat cleaver.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecution says this was never a case about rape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did not...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, to Blackstone, suburbs. All the neighbors say they never noticed anything wrong, but in the last hours, police bring in
hazmat after they discover three infants` dead bodies, one baby with the umbilical cord still attached, the bodies amid literally three feet of
trash, debris, feces, dead bugs, dirty diapers. And tonight, police not ruling out the discovery of a fourth dead infant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inside a condemned house of squalor, a disturbing discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The remnants of three infants have been found in the residence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You walk by on the street, and you could definitely smell the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The house is filled with vermin. We have flies. We have bugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a lot more than what we thought.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Every parents` worst nightmare, her parents think she`s safe when Mommy and Daddy let their little girl go on a Disney Pixie
Hollow Fairies Web site. But little did Mommy and Daddy know when she goes missing from their front yard of their Connecticut home, she was snatched
by a sex predator lurking on the Disney Fairies Web site, pictured from Disney.com. Let`s see a look at that.
After snatching the little girl from her home in Connecticut, the predator takes her on a cross-country trek he insists on calling their
honeymoon. In the last hours, we learn the little girl spotted in a multi- housing apartment complex, Colorado.
OK, first of all, Randy Corporon joining me, talk show host, KLZ. Randy, I`m familiar now, because of my daughter, Lucy, with Pixie Hollow.
That`s where Tinkerbell and all of these fairies live, and they paint flowers and they make the seasons change. They do everything regarding
nature. And you`re seeing right now Pixie Hollow from Disney.com.
This little girl was going on the Pixie Hollow Fairies Web site. My little girl is on fairy Web sites and Disney stuff all the time. She`s
obsessed with Ariel (ph). For me, this would be like Lucy going on an Ariel (ph) Web site.
RANDY CORPORON, KLZ (via telephone): Well, it`s very terrifying. Kids get onto the Internet to talk with other kids about things that
interest them, and then someone like this Internet predator not only gets on the Web site and engages this child in a two-year conversation, but then
shows up and takes her from her very own home.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait. Two-year conversation. Marc Klaas, president, founder, Klaas Kids Foundation, it`s classic. It`s classic, Marc Klaas.
Everyone, you are seeing the Pixie Hollow Web site that Disney puts up for little children to go to that love Disney, that love Tinkerbell.
Marc Klaas, two years of courting this little girl on line. They would go to the Pixie Hollow Web site with Disney Fairies. Then they would
talk on Skype. They would talk on Tumblr, on Pinger. They would talk on Kick (ph). Two years, Marc Klaas, he groomed her.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Exactly. That`s exactly what he did, Nancy. He groomed her for those two years, and somehow convinced her
that she would be better off with him, that he loved her, her parents didn`t love her.
GRACE: Hold on, Marc. I wonder if this is why he resorted -- maybe he followed Disney Pixie Hollow Web site rules, and maybe that is why he
resorted to her going onto Tumblr or Kick or Skype, so he could get around the Disney rules. Maybe Disney did do everything right, and that`s why he
resorted to getting her to go onto these other Web sites.
Everybody, for those of you just joining us, parents, the Mommy and Daddy, allow their little girl to go onto Disney`s Pixie Hollow Fairies Web
site. It`s connected to Tinkerbell and all the other little fairies that Tinkerbell hangs out with. And there she meets I guess what she thought
was another child. It`s a 53-year-old perv, all right -- let`s see his picture, Liz -- who courts her for two years on line.
Justin Freiman, the day she goes missing, isn`t it true the Mommy hears her -- look at this! I cannot even imagine my child, one or both,
being in the car with this perv as he drives them all across the country on a trip he calls, quote, "their honeymoon."
So Justin, isn`t it right the little girl is, like, giving one of her little friends on the phone directions to her house. What happened?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. Just moments before she went missing, she was giving somebody
directions, even asking parents about directions. Next thing they know, she was gone. And the mother was very worried that somebody had taken her.
GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of the apartment where this man lives. Take a look at this, Timothy Wind, age 53. This is where they end up,
halfway across the country in Colorado.
OK, Justin, the mom hears her giving directions. Then what happens?
FREIMAN: She asked to go outside to play, and that`s the last they see of her.
GRACE: She goes outside. This is in broad daylight. Back to Randy Corporon, KLZ. Randy, I know the parents are beside themselves. So they
have no clue who has the girl. So finally, police think, OK, you know, she`s a kid, but let`s just look at the Internet. Let`s look at her
computer. What do they find?
CORPORON: Well, they find these interactions back and forth between this 53-year-old man, who`s had this girl in his custody for 15 days. And
fortunately, by looking on her computer, they could find these initial conversations and eventually connected that to his home here in Longmont.
And the FBI contacted the Longmont Police Department, and within less than 24 hours, they had this girl back and safe.
GRACE: Everybody, take a look. Take a look at this home. You`re seeing a shot right there of 53-year-old Timothy Wind, a sex predator. He,
we believe, took this child from her front yard.
Detective Commander Jeff Satur is joining us from Longmont Police Department. Detective, thank you so much for being with us. When he was
courting the little girl for two years on the Pixie Hollow Web site -- let`s see the rest of that Web site, Liz -- did she know that she was
talking to an adult male? Did she -- I guess at her young age, she can`t really take it all in, but who did she think she was talking to on line?
Everybody, you`re seeing Pixie Hollow from Disney.com. Go ahead, Detective.
DET. COMMANDER JEFF SATUR, LONGMONT POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): So this is still very early in the investigation, so we don`t know which
character or how he portrayed himself early on. But at some point, she did become aware of who he was and how old he was.
But I do think it does highlight the dangers that families face every day, and I can tell you at this moment, people are facing this same problem
with other people on the Internet, and you got to be very careful.
GRACE: Detective -- Detective Commander Jeff Satur with us. Let`s see this guy again, this guy Timothy Wind. And what is disturbing me also,
in addition to this, is how many other girls has he been contacting, has he been reaching? I mean, he went all of the way from his home in Colorado
halfway across the country to get her. He didn`t quite know how to get to her home. And she`s asking her mom, So Mom, do you then turn left or
right? How far is it? And Mommy thinks some little friend is coming over. The little girl goes outside to the front yard, she`s never seen again.
She`s snatched out of the front yard by this sex predator!
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta. Also with me, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York. First to
you, Sanchez. What`s your defense?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the commander said that they`re in the process of investigating this matter.
GRACE: I mean, she`s on a Pixie Hollow Web site.
SANCHEZ: Do you know what`s revealed in that chat? Show us what`s revealed in that chat right now if you`re making those representations.
GRACE: Kessler, why are you shaking your head yes?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because you already convicted the guy. You don`t know -- you said yourself he got -- he went all the way
across the country. Two years -- who else was involved? How did he find this information? How`d he find the girl?
GRACE: What do you mean? How did he find what information?
KESSLER: How`d he find out where she was, how`d he get all the way over to her. How do you know there weren`t other adults?
GRACE: I`m sure the little girl told him.
KESSLER: What if there`s somebody else directing him, and what if there`s three other...
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Let`s analyze what you`re saying.
KESSLER: OK.
GRACE: What do you mean, what if there`s another adult directing him to kidnap a little girl from the front yard?
KESSLER: Who knows who he`s working for. Who knows what kind of mental incapacity he has. There`s a lot of investigation yet to be...
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no! No! No!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s take it one thing at a time. You can`t just blurt out something like that and expect me to swallow it like it`s vanilla ice
cream. That doesn`t happen. So let`s take it one at a time.
KESSLER: All right.
GRACE: Number one, he was working for somebody? What are you talking about? That doesn`t even make sense.
KESSLER: I`m just saying you`ve already convicted and tried him and you`re ready to sentence him to death.
GRACE: No! You said maybe he`s working for somebody.
KESSLER: Maybe he`s working...
GRACE: What do you mean?
KESSLER: Maybe he`s -- maybe he`s somebody who really has no mental capacity to even do this. Maybe somebody is saying, Go get this little
girl. Maybe he`s very, very mentally incapable of doing this.
GRACE: Really?
KESSLER: We don`t know anything about him yet.
GRACE: OK, take a look at him.
KESSLER: All right.
GRACE: Let`s go to Detective Commander Jeff Satur. Detective, any suggestion that this guy is mentally incompetent or he`s working for
somebody else, some amorphous -- you know what this reminds me of, Detective? When I would be trying cases, and out of the blue, the defense
would dream up SOD, some other dude, and some phantom that doesn`t really exist and try to blame it on that person. Somebody else did it.
There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that this man, this sex predator, is anything but well aware of what he was doing.
SATUR: I agree. And (INAUDIBLE) we do not have any information to make us believe that.
GRACE: And what I`m asking you is, is there any evidence that this sex predator is mentally unstable, that he`s insane, has a mental defect,
doesn`t know what he`s doing or working for somebody else?
SATUR: We don`t have any evidence of that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Disney Web site that was meant for chatting about fairies like Tinkerbell allegedly became a doorway...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... just 14 years old. He`s 53 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors reveal he had taken her on what he called a honeymoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Timothy Wind sparked a relationship with a 14- year-old girl that he met in a Disney fairies chat room and took her from her Connecticut home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holding the girl, you know, for as long as he did and everything, you know, God only knows what happened in there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To all of you parents that are hearing this story, I assume that a chill is running up and down your spine, like mine.
You are seeing the Pixie Hollow from Disney.com. It`s a Web site. But it`s bigger than a Web site. It`s a whole story about Tinkerbell,
originally from "Peter Pan," and all of her fairy friends that live in nature, and they paint the flowers, they make the leaves fall, they make
the dew come. They`re in charge of everything nature, all right? And there`s a series of movies and they`re ongoing. It`s huge, and it all
stems from the Disney character, Tinkerbell.
This is a parent`s worst nightmare. Children love Tinkerbell, and this little girl was on the Pixie Hollow Web site, and it is there that she
met and had an on-line relationship with this 53-year-old man for two years.
Now, I imagine the reason that he began communicating with her on Skype, on Pinger, on Kick, on Tumblr is because he was not following Disney
rules and they were going to bust him, and so he went to these other Web sites where they could talk, quote, "more freely."
Long story short, the little girl -- the Mommy hears her trying to give her little friend directions, asking Mommy, Mom, do you turn here and
-- well, the little girl goes outside, front yard, broad daylight, gone! And this 53-year-old perv drives her on what he calls their honeymoon
halfway across the country. He is now charged with multiple charges, including kidnapping and sex assault.
Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler, Alex Sanchez. As we were going to break, Kessler, you were trying to murmur something in your last argument
that maybe he`s working for somebody else, and then fallback, maybe he`s mentally defective, OK, has a mental defect. All right, neither of those
pan out. And I heard you say something about Disney. You somehow want to drag Disney into this?
KESSLER: Well, you know, all we`re talking about is punishment. Let`s talk about prevention. This company has so many opportunities for
people to do what he did. Shouldn`t some of the responsibility be on them? Let`s see what they`ve done. They may have done everything they could, but
I`d like to know what did they do to try to make sure there was...
GRACE: So bottom line, you`re just throwing bread out on the water...
KESSLER: I`m trying to prevent it from happening.
GRACE: ... and you`re hoping that maybe Disney did something, let something slip through the cracks. Yes. OK, Sanchez, you jumping on that
bandwagon, too?
SANCHEZ: No. I`m not prepared to adopt Randy`s, you know, some mysterious third person defense. But you`re skating over an important
issue. Did this girl at any point identify herself to this man as being 19 or 20? Look at all those sites. Let`s see if she did it because that
could be a proper defense in this case.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Wait a minute, Sanchez. You know what Sanchez? Don`t mess with me on this. Just don`t. Because this child is a
minor. She could have said, I`m 31. It wouldn`t matter because she`s a minor. Children cannot buy cars. They can`t enter into contracts. They
can`t buy liquor. They can`t buy -- they can`t buy cigarettes.
SANCHEZ: I know, but...
GRACE: They can`t buy a condo. Why?
SANCHEZ: ... it`s a factor...
GRACE: Because they are underage.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRACE: That`s not a defense, I thought she was 21.
CORPORON: No, but it`s a factor -- it`s a factor to be taken into consideration. And who knows whether or not...
GRACE: By whom?
SANCHEZ: Who knows whether or not she provided...
GRACE: By who?
SANCHEZ: ... some type of fraudulent identification.
GRACE: A factor to be taken into consideration by who? You -- do you know...
SANCHEZ: By the authorities...
GRACE: ... darn well...
SANCHEZ: ... and by a jury.
GRACE: ... that is not true! How many times has that been the butt of jokes, Oh, I thought she was 21.
SANCHEZ: No, but -- but...
GRACE: I mean, how could you even put that out there?
SANCHEZ: Yes, but if she provided some type of documentation, fraudulent documentation...
GRACE: What?
SANCHEZ: ... and he reasonably believed...
GRACE: She is a girl!
SANCHEZ: ... that she was 20, this may be -- it may provide some defense in this case.
GRACE: He found her on the Pixie Hollow Web site...
SANCHEZ: You know something?
GRACE: ... frequented by 7-year-olds!
SANCHEZ: Yes, I`m not sure that the Pixie Hollow Web site...
GRACE: You know what you`re doing?
SANCHEZ: ... is only followed by people that are 7 and 8 years old. I wouldn`t be surprised...
GRACE: You know what you`re doing?
SANCHEZ: ... if there`s adults and teenagers on there.
GRACE: You know what you`re doing?
SANCHEZ: What am I doing?
GRACE: You`re trying to blame the victim.
SANCHEZ: I`m not blaming the victim.
GRACE: And you know what? And you know what you`re capitalizing on, Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: No.
GRACE: The fact that we are not showing her picture or giving her name because you know I won`t show a child`s picture of a sex attack...
SANCHEZ: She -- she told the police...
GRACE: ... and so you`re trying to pretend to the viewers that, oh, she`s some buxom...
SANCHEZ: No.
GRACE: ... bleached blonde...
SANCHEZ: She told the police...
GRACE: ... that looks like she`s 35 years old.
SANCHEZ: ... that she was 20. She told the police that!
GRACE: OK, let`s get it out there. To Justin Freiman. Isn`t it true that when police came to the door -- and this is true, you can go back as
far as Hornby, the little boy that was snatched and then two other little boys were snatched and they were held prisoners for years and sexually
molested -- they didn`t tell police that they were kidnap victims. This is very common.
When police came to the door, she said, I`m 19 or 20. She didn`t even know how old she was supposed to be lying. And what, Justin, did he tell
police?
FREIMAN: When police contacted him at his job, he told them he had a female acquaintance staying at his apartment.
GRACE: So long story short -- back to Detective Commander Jeff Satur, joining me from Longmont Police Department -- you found the guy. The girl
was spotted. What is the guy now charged with, 53-year-old perv Timothy Wind?
SATUR: Right now, he is facing second-degree kidnapping, enticement of a child, Internet sexual exploitation and sex assault on a child.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t see him bring her in, didn`t see the police take her out. I mean (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI and Connecticut police were able to obtain information from the teenager`s computer that led them to Longmont.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the two communicated for about a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Straight back out to Marc Klaas, president and founder, Klaas Kids Foundation. When he began grooming this little girl,
nobody had any clue who he was. He was on chat lines with her in this Disney Dixie (sic) -- Dixie Hollow Web site for months and months and
months before they got off that and he convinced her to talk to him on other Web sites.
Now, you hear where the defense is going to go. They`re going to try to blame the little girl because, Marc Klaas, because when police got
there, she had been trained to say, I`m 19 or 20, when they came to the door, which is even more pathetic.
KLAAS: Yes, it is. In fact, you know, that was one of the problems with identifying Elizabeth Smart, with Jaycee Dugard, with Shawn Hornbeck.
In each one of these cases, the authorities approached these children and asked them who they were, and they were not forthcoming about that.
But what -- I think one of the biggest obstacles to Internet safety, if not the biggest obstacle, is the anonymity factor. You never -- unless
you know the person, you really don`t know who it is you`re dealing with on the Internet. And it`s really very, very difficult to be able to monitor
your kids` activities. They have so many different types of devices that they can be using.
I think what we have to do is educate the children and educate the parents, and it has to be an ongoing thing because where we`re very smart
now about protecting our kids on the streets, there is -- the perverts are easily able to get in their bedrooms using binary code. And that`s exactly
what happened here, and it`s happened numerous times before. I think the one good thing is that this girl wasn`t murdered as a result of that. This
guy was not a sadist and...
GRACE: Praise God. Praise God, Marc Klaas. Out to the lines. Kevin, California. Hi, Kevin. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. Well, you know what? I started off actually inquiring about, you know, the Pixie Hollow.com DMCA (ph) as it
relates to their terms and conditions and privacy policy for users or consumers who use the site.
But after perusing their site just a little bit, they do have some basic information there. But as you well know, you know, anyone under 18
that`s a child, they cannot contract, so it doesn`t really matter. And but I -- that was my concern, that there was some type of warning or something
that could go to the parent if a child was to use Pixie Hollow, as an example. I`m not really finding that here. I find it sad that -- and
actually egregious that I can`t find that on here as a consumer myself, at this point anyway, after looking through the large amount of information
that`s there. So I think that that`s missing. That`s part of what`s missing here.
GRACE: The reality is though, Kevin in California, even if you have that on a website, how are you going to protect people, protect children,
from predators who lie about who they are to get on to a website, and all of those waivers and warnings and all that, that`s not stopping a predator.
None of that is stopping a predator.
CALLER: Absolutely not. You know, I track predators nearly every day. And I can tell you right now that it`s not going to stop it. It`s
just one little factor that a parent -- that they may see that -- will take responsibility for their child and protect them. Nancy, that`s what you do
best. You protect and you communicate and you educate all of your followers, including myself. I can tell you right now, you`re doing one
darn good job at it. And the gentleman that had defense with -- that maybe the website -- there may be some liability there. I don`t buy that. I
respect him, but I don`t buy it.
GRACE: Kevin, I`m hearing what you`re saying about the websites having some type of a warning for parents to see. You know what? You`re
right. Why not put the warning on there? We`ve got to do everything we can. With me is Kevin from California, who tracks predators. You`re
seeing Pixie Hollow, the website from disney.com. You know, back to what the defense lawyers were saying that maybe he thought she was 19 or 20, so
he goes to meet women on the Pixie Hollow website? I don`t think so.
Greg Cason joining me, psychologist from L.A. You know, very often child victims are afraid to say what has been happening to them, and I
don`t think I ever tried one child molestation case where the child spoke to me freely. I had to spend a lot of time with the child. I had to talk
to them and use kid language. Talk in code to get them to finally tell me what happened as best as they could. So of course when cops come banging
on the door and they open the door and the little girl answers the door, she`s going to say what this perv told her to say. Of course she is.
CASON: That`s exactly right. It`s an issue of trust, Nancy. He somehow managed to gain her trust, and to be able to take him into his
trust. So when these strangers come to your door, even though they say they`re cops, they`re not people she believes she can trust at that moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to Santa Ana, California. A married mother of a 4- year-old little girl now facing hard jail time after she admits she orchestrates killing her rapist with a meat cleaver.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did not participate in this willingly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After her alleged rape, (inaudible) took her to a bar in search of Ramirez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was terrorized. I wasn`t participating at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police believe that`s when the murderous plan was put into motion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was afraid for her life at the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This woman, a college professor and mother of a 4-year-old little girl, admits she orchestrates killing her rapist. Would a jury
actually convict her and send her to hard jail time when they hear her story of rape? I don`t think so. Straight out to her friend, Liz Witham,
a friend of Norma`s. Former roommate. I want to ask you an unusual question and I want you to just tell me about her personality. I don`t
think any jury would ever convict her.
LIZ WITHAM, FRIEND: She`s an incredible person. She`s a generous, kind, loving person. We actually were put together as roommates at
(inaudible) Academy as freshmen, and we enjoyed each other`s company so much, we actually decided to live together again the following year. I
can`t say enough good things about her and who she is.
GRACE: Tell me, Liz, about her as a mother to this 4-year-old little girl. If you put a jury full of women, they might think that is fair play
for your rapist to be murdered. What kind of mother is she to her 4-year- old little girl?
WITHAM: I think she`s an incredible mother. Her daughter is the center of her universe. It`s what she lives for. Ultimately I think her
daughter is the reason why she took this plea, because she couldn`t handle the idea that she might never get to spend time with her daughter again.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Dr. Michele Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. Doctor, true, the rapist was killed with a meat
cleaver. Of course that had to be painful. But still, Doctor, a lot of women are not going to be concerned by the fact that he was killed with a
meat cleaver. What would that entail? His body was hacked to death. You can`t get around it, Dr. Dupre.
DUPRE: No, Nancy. That takes a lot of effort on someone`s part. A meat cleaver is a hefty instrument. It`s a sharp instrument. Bones were
likely hit. Bones can be very painful when they are hacked in that manner. Bleeding to death could have taken anywhere from four to six minutes or
longer depending if major arteries were severed.
GRACE: Everyone, tonight, a mother of a 4-year-old little girl facing hard jail time after she orchestrates the killing of her rapist. Joining
me right now, a survivor of sex assault, Laura Dunn. You know what, Laura, everything in me says this is wrong. This is horribly wrong. She is going
to do jail time for arranging this, for orchestrating the murder of her rapist.
DUNN: Yes, absolutely. I think this whole story is just one nightmare after another. We have someone who not just was raped in college
but actually has a history of child sexual abuse, then is raped in college, and then has a boyfriend at the time who it sounds like is really the one
behind this plan. He`s the one making her point him out and then this murder happens. I can`t imagine her fear of even him and the power that he
has over her.
GRACE: Let me ask you this question. Laura, you have survived sex assault. I don`t understand why the trauma caused by a rape would not
suffice as a defense. You know, we`ve got everything. We`ve got the Twinkie defense. We`ve got the low sugar defense. We`ve got the PMS
defense. We`ve got it all. Here we`ve got a woman who was raped. Kills, orchestrates the killing of her rapist, and she`s going to do hard jail
time? I mean, you know, Hinckley for Pete`s sakes, tried to kill the president and they let him out. Now this lady is going to have to do hard
jail time because her rapist dies? That doesn`t mesh to me. It`s not two and two equals four. It doesn`t make sense to me. You`re the rape victim.
Speak out.
DUNN: Absolutely. I mean, rape is one of the most horrible things on the planet for anyone to endure. It is astounding that the criminal
justice system would at first not be able to address campus sexual assault, because we know sexual assault on campuses happens all the time with almost
no prosecutions, so it wasn`t there for her at the time. And then on top of that, to go after her now, and to go after her so severely knowing she
went through this and also had a boyfriend at the time who was pressuring her into these circumstances, again, it`s just one nightmare after another.
We should be compassionate to survivors. They are harmed first and foremost, and that doesn`t make the killing okay, but I do think it
requires some compassion by the prosecutor. Why are they pursuing it this hard?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To the Blackstone suburbs. All of the neighbors say they never noticed anything strange, but in the last hours, police bring in
hazmat after they discover three infants` dead bodies. One with the umbilical cord still attached. The bodies amid literally three feet of
trash, debris, feces, dead bugs, dirty diapers. And tonight police not ruling out the discovery of a fourth dead infant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just days after the bodies of three infants were found inside, more dead animals were found. A dog and a cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To have this happen is mind-boggling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The window would be open as you walk by in the street you could definitely smell the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We grabbed an original number of biohazardous waste containers. We`re now going to be taking out, 20, 25.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s breaking my heart, it`s breaking a lot of people`s hearts in the community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me, Kevin Conlon, at the CNN national desk. He`s the editor there. Thank you for being with us. I`m overwhelmed that there`s
three children`s dead bodies, Kevin. One with the umbilical cord still attached found amidst all this debris. Police not ruling out the
possibility there`s another child. I`m learning the father grows weed out I guess out in the backyard, and the mom says she was afraid because he
didn`t want any more children. Am I getting a grasp of this story?
KEVIN CONLON, CNN NATIONAL DESK EDITOR: You`re right. This is an absolutely shocking and gruesome story out in central Massachusetts. What
I can tell you is that the state`s Department of Children and Families executed what they call a 51-a, which is when they believe a child is being
abused and they went and check it out. They get there and they take four kids from the home. Apparently, this abject squalor, like you said in your
intro, diapers everywhere, feces everywhere, apparently the drywall was crumbling down. Two weeks later, it wasn`t until two weeks later that the
state went in, in their hazmat suits, and that`s when they found the three dead infants and --
GRACE: I`m just sick about it. Kevin Conlon, something that really broke my heart when I heard about this story was, you know, you said there
were other children taken out of the home. The 6 year old was spotted by neighbors just sitting outside crying. I mean, can you imagine going home?
Before my children come home from school, I try to make it nice and neat and pleasant for them to come home and get them snacks and have everything
ready for them to do their little homework. These children came home to three feet? Clark, what was found?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, a whole bunch of debris was found. To quote one report, which I think may sum it up best, think about the most horrible
thing you can think of, and then make it worse. You see behind me, Nancy, authorities found the dreaded bed bugs. And you know, once they start --
GRACE: Clark, a bug can`t compare to three feet of feces, human waste.
GOLDBAND: Feces, human waste, and diapers.
GRACE: Three feet, diapers.
GOLDBAND: Covered in diapers, mice, vermin.
GRACE: Those were rats, Clark, those are not little mice that you get at the pet shop.
GOLDBAND: Yes, and let me tell you something else, Nancy. This is what we just learned. One of the neighbors says they had baby bottles full
of maggots in the home. Maggots covering these baby bottles. Authorities, Nancy, not using one dumpster, five dumpsters, ten dumpsters. They may
need 25 to 30 dumpsters to remove all this from the home.
GRACE: Everybody, three feet of debris. John Depetro at the house today, host, WPRO. Thank you for being with us. What did you see? What`s
happening? And how could all of this be happening right under the nose of the neighbors and they`re only a couple of blocks from the police station?
DEPETRO: That`s the thing, Nancy, I was at the house today. When I was there, when the story first broke, you could just tell. I had to park
50, 75 feet away from the house. As soon as you got out of the car, you could smell the stench and odor leading to the house. I also want to
mention, Nancy, this is not a house buried somewhere way off in the woods. It`s a pretty well traveled street. It`s right off Main Street. Some of
the homes and neighbors, the houses are maintained. But it`s just horrifying to think that you had a 13-year-old, 10-year-old. I talked to
one neighbor that said they would see them sitting out on the porch eating their breakfast. Imagine the horror of a 10-year-old child that couldn`t
bring anyone home. And that`s what was behind--
GRACE: I wonder what else they were living through, John, because in that type of squalor, how were they taken care of? And another thing, what
about extended family, John? Weren`t there any brothers, sisters, grandparents? What about the father who raises pot in the backyard?
DEPETRO: That`s the thing, Nancy. It`s hard to believe that the father would say that he lived in the basement and was unaware of what was
going on.
GRACE: What! Hold on, John. With me right now, just being joined out of Denver by Mason Dvert (ph), director of the Marijuana Policy
Project. All right, Mason, daddy`s high on weed, he`s got a pot farm in the backyard. He has got a regular day job in the QB with the picture of
his wife and family up. Was he just so high on weed he didn`t care his children were living in squalor? There were three dead infants upstairs,
one with the umbilical cord still attached?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is obviously a shocking story, but quite frankly, it`s incredible and shocking that you`re spending time talking
about marijuana here when there are so many other things that are relevant here -- mental health issues, whether people had reported anything
previously. Those are the real questions we need to be asking.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And what`s interesting is the dad --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously it had nothing to do with this situation.
GRACE: Except the dad was high on weed. Right now the dad is not charged with anything related to the children. And I don`t understand
that, John. Why is the mom the only one being charged? What about daddy?
DEPETRO: Nancy, she`s saying he told her she did not want anymore children, and she hid the two children, 3 years old and 6 months old. He`s
claiming he didn`t even know they were upstairs in the house. He didn`t know about the dead animals. He didn`t even know, according to him, he
didn`t even know about the dead infants, whose bodies were found.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Okay. Three infants` bodies found amidst three feet of debris, including feces, bugs, trash. Dirty diapers. One child still had
the umbilical cord as if mommy gave birth to the baby, threw the trash on the floor and just left it. It was still lying there. Unleash the
lawyers. Alex Sanchez, Randy Kessler, mommy is now under attack, as she should be. Kessler, what about daddy?
KESSLER: If this reporter says he couldn`t get out of his car two blocks away and not smell it, I don`t understand how dad couldn`t smell it,
but dad is not the main person is. We`re going to figure out what his problem was.
DEPETRO: Nancy, he would claim the father says he worked full time, it was the mother`s responsibility to take care of the house.
GRACE: This is what I do know. I know four children were taken out of the squalor. I know there were three dead infants, possibly a fourth,
in the filth, three feet deep of feces, bugs and trash.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Sergeant Charles Wyckoff, Jr. 28, Chula Vista, California. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loving
parachuting and dreamed of flight school. Parents Edward and Sylvia, sister, Elena (ph). Widow Erica, son Joshua, daughter Alexandria. Charles
Wyckoff Jr., American hero.
And tonight, a special happy birthday to Texas friend Brock. Special Olympics gold medalist. Loves volunteering. Happy birthday, Brock. Drew
up next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
