Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
TV Star Target of Child Molestation Probe
Aired October 07, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, the wildly popular TV star of "Devious Maids," "The Office," "7th Heaven," "Law and Order," "The
Fosters" at this hour the target of a child sex molestation probe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: TV and film star Stephen Collins is at the center of a molestation probe. Police say the actor, known for his family-
friendly roles on hit shows like "7th Heaven" and "The Fosters," is the target of an ongoing child molestation probe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, North Carolina. It`s a child`s Halloween dream, but a parent`s worst nightmare. It looks like a haunted house. It`s
frightening, all right, but not because of the witches and skeletons on the outside. Neighbors are worried about what`s on the inside, a registered
sex offender convicted of rubbing a 3-year-old girl with a vibrator!
Not only has the convicted sex predator decorated his home and yard beyond every child`s wildest Halloween dream, neighbors say he`s been
walking up and down the street in full Halloween costume. If it`s not to entice children come trick-or-treating time, then why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Registered sex offender, a graveyard spooky and scary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors say it is not just a yard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has put out Halloween decorations (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During Halloween season, I guarantee you this place is going to be packed with children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neighbors are upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a violent boyfriend shakes his girlfriend`s 2- year-old toddler girl with such ferocity, the baby`s fatal injuries could be mistaken for those of a car crash victim. Little Casey (ph) never had a
chance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a 2-year-old girl was shaken and beaten to death so violently that her injuries resembled those of a car
crash victim. Prosecutors say a considerable amount of force was used in the attack and the toddler shaken to stop her from crying after the initial
physical assault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Utah, a major search under way for a missing 30-year-old woman who vanishes from her upscale condo without shoes, money or phone.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The TV star of "Devious Maids," "The Office," "7th Heaven," "Law and Order," "The Fosters" at this hour, the target of a child
molestation sex probe.
Straight out to Sara Sidner, CNN correspondent joining us. Sara, what`s happening?
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, we`ve got some information we can share with you now. He is the target of an ongoing child molestation
investigation into an alleged incident. This was all brought up again today because TMZ released an audiotape that purports to have been recorded
during a November 2012 therapy session that included Collins and his now estranged wife, Faye grant.
CNN at this point can`t confirm the authenticity of that tape, for example, whether it`s Collins on the tape or whether the tape had been
edited.
GRACE: Right.
SIDNER: We do know, though, Nancy, that Collins and Grant are currently in the middle of a contentious divorce.
GRACE: Also with us, in addition to Sara Sidner, is Chloe Melas, senior reporter with Hollywoodlife.com. Thank you so much for being with
us. It`s also disturbing because we feel like we know him. I mean, this guy goes back to family settings all the way to the Walton family.
Everybody thinks that they know this guy. And look at him. When you see him, you go, Oh, yes, I remember him in this and this and this and this.
And he`s always a loving, trustworthy, a father figure, even a pastor in "7th Heaven."
What are the allegations all about? Chloe, I understand that he`s in the middle of a divorce. Everybody, you`re seeing video of "7th Heaven"
from CBS television distribution. But Chloe, it seems to me -- and I`ve listened to the tape very carefully -- that his wife, now estranged, has
gotten him to go to counseling. And they`re in the counseling session, and she`s quizzing him. All the while, she`s taping him, the wife.
CHLOE MELAS, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: Honestly, it is so shocking! I mean, I grew up watching "7th Heaven." This guy seemed like the perfect dad. I
mean, he had that clean-cut, wholesome image. He had this great marriage, which, obviously, he`s been in a divorce since 2012. But this is just
absolutely shocking, Nancy!
And you know, I can tell you that, obviously, we don`t know if it is for sure him on the tapes, but people are taking this seriously enough that
he`s just been fired from the movie that he was working on, "Ted 2," by Seth McFarland (ph). I mean, he had a small role in the film, but Ted
McFarland -- Seth McFarland has just revealed today that he is not on the film. So people are not taking these allegations lightly at all, Nancy.
GRACE: Everybody, we are talking about the wildly popular TV actor Stephen Collins. Now, he was married to Faye Grant at the time. And this
is my understanding of the facts, Chloe -- Chloe joining us from Hollywoodlife.com, Chloe Melas.
It seems as if they go to counseling, and it sounds as if she said, All right, look, you got to come clean about everything you`ve ever done,
and then we`ll talk about our relationship. And it goes on and on and on. Now, you just mentioned, is this really him?
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Mickey Sherman and Yale Galanter. First of all, to you, Mick. Here`s the deal. On the tape, you hear her
saying, Stephen, Stephen, Stephen, saying his name over and over. OK, some people might think that would prove it`s him. That doesn`t mean a hill of
beans! You`ve got to prove in a court of law -- you two are going to have a field with this -- that you`ve got to authenticate it. That`s the legal
language. You`ve got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this is, in fact, him before this tape can come into evidence.
Not only that, we all three know that no criminal case can be proven based on a confession alone. Otherwise, you`d have every kook in town in
jail right now that made up a confession, all right? You got to have corroboration.
OK, Mick, let`s talk about the tape. Is it him? How are you going to prove it`s him, where he talks about various girls, young girls, as young
as 11, and sex conduct with them? How do you prove it? How do you disprove it, Mick?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s already proved. The fact that we`re talking about it and the fact he`s been accused of it,
sadly enough, when you throw mud against the wall, no matter how many times you wash it down, there`s going to be stains there. So this man`s
reputation, his livelihood is probably forever damaged. This also happened, if I`m not mistaken, 40 years ago. How are you going to prove a
case that happened to unknown people 40 years ago?
GRACE: OK, now, I don`t know that they`re unknown. But Yale Galanter, I`m talking specifically about how you would get this tape into
evidence. Now, I know there`s a tape because I`ve heard it. Do I know it`s him? No, I don`t know that it`s him.
YALE GALANTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Nancy, Mickey and I are going to keep it out of evidence. We don`t want anybody to ever
hear the tape. And one of the first things we`re going to say is that the tape is privileged, that he was set up. I mean, this is a psychoanalyst.
He`s going in for therapy. The whole idea of therapy is you`re supposed to unleash and let out your innermost thoughts of anything that could have
ever occurred. That`s supposed to stay private. That`s like talking to a priest, a rabbi, a lawyer.
Those are privileged conversations that, in my view, would never be able to be admissible in any criminal courtroom in the country.
GRACE: OK, put the lawyers up, Please. All right, Yale, I thought the same thing when I first heard the scenario. But here`s the deal. In
that jurisdiction, if the investigative questioning goes toward uncovering a felony, all the protections, the privileges, attorney-client, priest-
parishioner, husband-wife, it`s all -- doctor-patient in this case, the therapist-patient, out the window.
Now, it`s my understanding -- let me go back to Sara Sidner, CNN correspondent. It`s my understanding that estranged wife says her lawyer
advised her to tape this to gather evidence to investigate a felony. And I`m quoting what we have been told. Is that how this secret recording
happened?
SIDNER: We have not heard from his wife, himself or any of their representatives. What we can tell you is that there was something that
came up in 2012, where the Los Angeles Police Department received information regarding allegations of criminal behavior involving Collins.
A case was opened at that time. So that was two years ago, Nancy. But that case has been closed. There was no crime report made and no verified
victim, which might explain why it was closed.
The LAPD note (ph) told me today, though, that they are reviewing that investigation...
GRACE: Hold on!
SIDNER: ... to make certain that nothing was missed and that...
GRACE: Chloe...
SIDNER: ... the LAPD will cooperate with the New York Police Department.
GRACE: With me, Chloe Melas and Sara Sidner. Sara, when you say LAPD didn`t verify a child victim -- well, the child victims that they`re
talking about in this tape, if it`s a real tape, are in New York. So of course, LAPD`s not going to verify them or pursue it. Is there something
happening in New York?
SIDNER: Well, if there -- if what is on the tape is true, there are cases that are both in New York and potentially here in Los Angeles. There
is a particular case that we cannot verify...
GRACE: Yes.
SIDNER: ... that has been mentioned that may have happened here in Los Angeles, which would explain why there might have been something
brought to the Los Angeles Police Department. But again, they said they had no victim and they had no police report that was filed. So an
allegation was made, and I think they looked into that, and then closed the case.
GRACE: You know what, Sara? That is very, very telling, actually. And I certainly don`t want to be in the business of defending a child sex
predator, but every one of these allegations has to be proved in a court of law. And what Sara is telling me is that this tape apparently has been
given to the LAPD and they couldn`t verify an alleged LA child victim.
Now, I`m going over my notes of what I heard on the tape, and there are alleged New York child victims and alleged LA -- one LA child victim.
The fact that LAPD is saying they can`t confirm that, I find that very probative.
On the other hand -- back out to Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywoodlife.com -- I wonder it they just took it all with a box of salt.
They went, Oh, they`re in the middle of a divorce. She`s dredging all this up against him and...
MELAS: I mean, it -- it`s very -- it`s very telling. I mean, you never know in these types of situations, Nancy. And again, no one has
verified this tape. And this is a guy that tweets often, that just last week was tweeting about the movie "Ted 2," that he was involved in, and now
he`s been is fired from it. So he`s yet to say anything on Twitter. His, you know, soon to be ex-wife is yet to say anything on Twitter.
And no one from "7th Heaven" or anyone has come to his defense and none of the alleged victims of this alleged molestation case have come
forward, either. So we`re really thinking that in the next few hours, Nancy, that somebody`s going to say something, and we wonder if it`s going
to be Collins.
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing video from "Law and Order SVU" from NBC Universal Television.
For those of you just joining us, a wildly popular TV star -- he has been on "The Fosters," "7th Heaven," he played a pastor, all the way back
to "The Waltons" -- now the subject, the target of a child molestation probe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: TV and film star Stephen Collins at the center of a molestation probe. Police say the actor known for his family-friendly
roles on hit shows like "7th Heaven" and "The Fosters" is the target of an ongoing child molestation probe. The alleged incident happened 40 years
ago, but the investigation is going on right now. TMZ has released a tape allegedly from a therapy session attended by Collins and his estranged
wife, actress Faye Grant. According to TMZ, Collins made incriminating statements on the tape. The authenticity of the tape cannot be confirmed
at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a wildly popular TV star, the star of "7th Heaven," goes all the way back to "The Waltons" -- it`s
always a family setting that he`s in on TV, you feel like you know him -- "The Fosters" -- it goes on and on. Everybody, you`re seeing video right
now from "Devious Maids" from Disney ABC Television Distribution, another wildly popular show he`s been on. It`s Stephen Collins.
And tonight, very disturbing allegations about alleged child molestation, and not just one. It all comes from an audiotape. The tape
suggests -- and I`ve listened to it very carefully -- that he and his now estranged -- remember that -- wife are in counseling. And it seems as if
she is recording the conversation. Either she recorded it or the therapist recorded it. And if the therapist recorded it, I`d sure like know how it
got leaked.
But this conversation she`s -- the wife is asking him all these questions about past molestations of young girls. Now, people have often
asked me, You ever think you prosecuted an innocent person? And I always say I know I haven`t. I`ve got enough guilty people to prosecute. I don`t
have to worry about prosecuting an innocent person.
The reason we`re not playing that tape tonight -- we have not authenticated that it`s him on the tape. I don`t know that it`s him.
Those are the allegations.
Straight out to Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywood.com -- Hollywoodlife.com. Chloe, when did the tape first come to light? And
what`s your understanding of how this tape was made?
MELAS: You know, it`s very interesting, Nancy. Nobody knows exactly how it was leaked. But we put the story up on Hollywoodlife.com first
thing this morning, as soon as TMZ released the audio of the tapes. I`ve listened to the tapes. It`s incredibly shocking. Won`t go into it because
nobody seems to be able to verify it just yet, other than TMZ...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Back it up. TMZ -- how does TMZ get ahold of all this? Now, I
don`t think...
MELAS: That`s a great question!
GRACE: ... TMZ goes out and surreptitiously steals it or grabs it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... want to leak something, they give it to TMZ because it`s going to get out there immediately.
MELAS: I mean, look what happened with Mel Gibson. I mean, TMZ -- you know, my hat`s off to them. They break a ton of stories.
GRACE: They do.
MELAS: They`re known for breaking the documents, breaking the tapes. And you know, they don`t necessarily -- I don`t know how they get their
stuff. I don`t work for TMZ. But what I can tell you is that, you know, you never know if maybe somebody just handed them the tape and it just
showed up on their front doorstep, or if they knew about it for a long time and...
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing...
MELAS: ... they went after it.
GRACE: ... video from "The Office," NBC television distribution, another show. There he is, Stephen Collins starring in (ph).
So bottom line, somebody got this tape to TMZ. And typically, you don`t have to reveal sources, so we`re probably going to never know. But
we do believe that there were three people in that room, him, Stephen Alan (sic), his now estranged wife, and a therapist. Somebody was recording the
conversation. In the conversation, he alludes to -- the speaker alludes to molestation on young girls, and more than one.
Unleash the lawyers, Mickey Sherman, Yale Galanter. All right, Yale, let`s talk about this. Remember when we talked about how you authenticate
a tape recording. Well, I asked you two, and basically, you both screamed you would never let it into evidence. OK, well, you`re not the judge,
number one. Neither am I.
But the way you get a tape recording in, you have to authenticate it. Somebody`s got to say in court, I recognize that voice, and it is or it`s
not Stephen Collins. You could bring in the therapist to say, Yes, this is the same exact conversation we had. You have to show the location, the
date, the circumstances around it to bolster its veracity or truthfulness. This is the answer -- I`m Q&A-ing with myself here -- about how you get a
recording into evidence. You got to prove it`s actually him.
But let`s talk about the tape -- the way that the tape was made. In a lot of jurisdictions, Yale, you got to have two-party consent, like you
call me on the phone and go, Oh, by the way, I`m taping you. That`s why, when you call the airlines, they go, This call`s being taped for quality
control, or whatever they want to tell you. They`ve got tell you you`re being taped, OK? That`s why you hear that. It`s the law.
Now, California, I think, is one-party consent, Yale. Is that right?
GALANTER: I believe it is. But you know...
GRACE: OK, and Mickey...
GALANTER: ... wherever this case -- wherever this case...
GRACE: Mickey, New York...
GALANTER: ... is prosecuted...
GRACE: ... is one-party, too, correct?
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: ... these issues.
GRACE: New York is one-party, too, right, Mickey Sherman?
SHERMAN: I believe so. But you know, as Yale`s pointing out, don`t you think there`s some ill-gotten motive here...
GRACE: Yes.
SHERMAN: ... just (INAUDIBLE) goes with the taping episode itself? The fact she`s an estranged wife, she`s being -- he`s an estranged wife --
an estranged husband and he`s in the therapist`s office, don`t you think maybe he was just going to say anything that it took to get him out of
there?
GRACE: I think that`s an excellent argument his defense lawyers are going to make. And if you get one jury (sic) to agree that the taping of
him, if it`s real, was sleazy, they -- and this is the law. If you doubt the truthfulness or the motivation behind a piece of evidence, you have a
right to totally disregard that evidence.
Now, but what the two of you are saying is, all right, if she taped him, she`s sleazy. All right, does that excuse the conduct on the tape?
No, it doesn`t. So...
GALANTER: Well, the issue is not the conduct...
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: ... the issue is how it was gotten.
GRACE: The issue...
GALANTER: Nancy, the issue...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... are the allegations true. Did he molest these girls?
GALANTER: No, the issue in...
GRACE: That`s going to be the issue.
GALANTER: The issue in the court of law is going to be, can it be authenticated, as you correctly pointed out.
GRACE: Right.
GALANTER: Was it taped legally? Does it violate any privilege?
GRACE: Right.
GALANTER: And what was the motive behind the tape? Because we already...
GRACE: The whole time...
GALANTER: ... that her lawyer...
GRACE: It doesn`t matter what the motive was.
GALANTER: ... told her to tape it. So maybe he was put up to the whole thing (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: You can argue it...
SHERMAN: Oh, yes, guys (ph). In front of a jury, it`s going to matter.
GRACE: You can argue it to a jury, but under the law, the motive (ph) you tape something doesn`t matter. But that`s what I said at the get-go,
all right? You`re preaching to the choir right now, Galanter! If one juror says, I think this tape is sleazy, I think she tricked him into
saying this, they could choose not to believe the tape.
But the overarching issue here, Mickey, is not was taping him sleazy. The question is, is it him talking. And if it is him, is this true, OK?
We`re talking about a child molestation probe here, not, is the wife sleazy because she taped him, all right? That -- that`s kind of irrelevant. But
a jury may agree with you.
So how do you go about -- the LAPD has not corroborated an LA victim. How do you go about putting together -- Mickey, that`s why you`re here.
You and Yale, consummate defense attorneys, you both prosecuted cases that are old, OK? And these allegations happened a while back. How do you put
that case back together again? Once you confirm this is...
(CROSSTALK)
SHERMAN: You still need a victim. It just can`t be unknown people 40 years ago. They need Mary Jones, Sally Smith. They need someone to come
forward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: At this hour, a wildly popular TV star the target of a child sex molestation probe. I`m talking about Stephen Collins. The actor is
one of the stars of "7th Heaven." He goes back as far as "The Waltons," "The Fosters," multiple movies. He`s a familiar face and he`s typically in
a family setting on all of these shows.
In the last hours, we learn -- oh, you`re seeing video of "7th Heaven" from CBS Television Distribution, and there`s Collins right there. At this
hour, a tape has emerged. The tape, which I listened to, portrays to be Stephen Collins in a therapy session, apparently, or a conversation with
his wife, his now estranged wife, and she`s asking him about previous incidents of molestation on young girls and asking him a lot of questions,
it almost sounds like he is on cross exam on the stand. And she`s taping this. Apparently. During their conversation, unbeknownst to him. Is it
real? That`s what we are trying to figure out.
To clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders, in a nutshell, Patricia, we know that the LAPD hasn`t been able to confirm one of the L.A.
victims. The others apparently, ostensibly in New York, these young girls. Do you think there`s a point in somebody`s life where they go, you know
what, that was a long time ago, I don`t want to talk about it anymore. I`m past it.
DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS: That would be a more characteristic reaction, denial. But there`s another hypothesis that hasn`t been mentioned yet.
Oftentimes in therapy, people will report fantasies about pedophilia during sex with their partner. So you heard the tape, I haven`t. But that is
another possibility. I also have the question of, why 40 years later? Why is this coming out now?
GRACE: Hold on, hold on. You are saying a fantasy of pedophilia. That`s not what this was. She was quizzing him, interrogating him, about
what was the girl`s name? What was her last name? Did you date her? Asking questions like this and really trying to extract facts from him.
And like the defense lawyer said, the tape smells. But now my big question is, not was taping him behind his back sleazy. My question is, is this
tape real. And these victims, do they exist? The state`s got a big burden. Joining me now, David Caplan, celebrity journalist,
gossipdavid.com. David, what do you know?
CAPLAN: There`s one person here who they haven`t mentioned, they have a daughter, actually, 25-year-old daughter, who lives in Arizona. I`m
curious about the effect that is having on her. We are talking about Collins and his wife. She hasn`t broke her silence yet. I`d be very
curious to say what a 25-year-old woman has to say about these allegations as well.
GRACE: Hold on. You`re seeing video from "Devious Maids." That is from Disney ABC TV distribution. There he is. Stephen Collins, right
there. He is almost always portrayed, for instance, in "7th Heaven," he is the pastor. Or he is a father. Or he is a father figure. What were you
saying, David Caplan?
CAPLAN: Yes. He has a 25-year-old daughter who used to be an actress. I would be very curious to hear what she has to say. She hasn`t
been brought up in any of this at all.
Also, quickly, when they split, when they began their divorce proceedings two years ago, they had been married for 27 years. So it`s
interesting to see that, you know, if his estranged wife had any idea. That is a long time to be living with somebody and to know someone for 27
years. My final thing, I got to put in, Nancy, having worked at TMZ, I feel pretty confident about their tape and how these things go on.
GRACE: And the point is, you`re confident but confident of what? That somebody gave it to them?
CAPLAN: That the tape, the report is accurate, that the tape is real and that there is no monkey business in terms of tapes --
GRACE: No, I don`t think TMZ would alter the tape. We`re talking about how does TMZ get their mitts on all this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live, Stanley, North Carolina, a child`s Halloween dream, a parent`s worst nightmare. It looks like a haunted house and it is
frightening all right, but not because of the witches and skeletons on the outside. Neighbors are worried about what`s on the inside. A registered
sex offender, convicted of rubbing a 3-year-old girl with a vibrator. The convicted sex predator decorates his home and yard beyond every child`s
wildest Halloween dream. If it is not to entice children come trick or treat time, then why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- witches and skeletons on the lawn. Reports say neighbors are upset. They are worried about the man inside. A registered
sex offender. One woman told me her children ask to visit every time she drives by the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Registered sex offender lives inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to ABC News anchor, Noam Laden. Noam, this guy is a convicted, registered child sex offender. And he has been parading up
and down the streets in the neighborhood in full Halloween costume already, and has his home decorated. It`s every child`s Halloween dream. If it is
not to lure children, then what is it for, Noam?
LADEN: You ask a great question. His crime is for sure as creepy as the decorations on his front lawn. But here is the problem. 53-year-old
Robert Barnes charged with taking indecent liberties with a minor back in 2000, cops say he has been clean since then, in the 14 years since then.
So he could actually, if he wanted to, he could turn on his lights Halloween evening and give out candy.
GRACE: You know, the way you say it is certainly putting perfume on the pig. Euphemistic indecent liberties. Clark, what is he specifically
convicted of?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, these documents were in the bottom of the courthouse in the basement. Our researcher took extraordinary effort to find them,
and what he found is he is accused of putting a vibrator on top of a 3- year-old girl with her pants down. Her dad then allegedly walks into the room and finds the act taking place.
GRACE: Okay. Repeat.
GOLDBAND: He is accused of using a sex toy on a 3-year-old girl, Nancy. Was found guilty.
GRACE: And the father comes in the room to find --
GOLDBAND: To find the gentleman with the sex toy on top of the girl.
GRACE: Okay. Joining me right now, Sergeant Mike Radford from the Gaston County sheriff`s department. He lives near this registered sex
offender. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. When I hear the actual facts that we found in the police report, they are so much worse than the
name of the crime, indecent liberties. Indecent liberties. You don`t even understand what that is. That was a 3-year-old little girl in that police
report, Sergeant.
SGT MIKE RADFORD, GASTON COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Yes, ma`am. It was.
GRACE: Tell me what`s going on. I know the home is decorated for every kid`s Halloween dream. He has been going up and down the street
already in Halloween costume?
RADFORD: That I`m not aware of. I`ve not been notified of that here at the agency, at the sheriff`s office in Gaston County, but I`ve heard
neighbors from other sources say that, but I`ve not seen him.
GRACE: What kind of decorations does he have up?
RADFORD: He`s got anything from the graveyards, tombstones, to witches. Mummies. He`s got a bunch of --
GRACE: Hold on, Sergeant. I`ve got to get your satellite straightened out. Until then, Noam, let me take this call. Hi, Lisa,
what`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I heard you mention, which this person, which I don`t think is, is a sex predator. I`m not sure of the proper term. But
is it safe for him to be shelling out candy, let alone anything do with Halloween?
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Mickey Sherman and Yale Galanter. Okay, Mickey, I assume that you`re all for the child sex predator handing out
candy, right?
SHERMAN: I was (inaudible) the national spokesperson for child molesters. Not all sex offenders are created equal. Some people do a
little bit of a crime, some people do a serious crime. The most important thing is this guy was punished. It happened in 2000. This is 14 years
later. He`s been prosecuted. He has obeyed his provisions of probation. He is allowed to do what he is going to do. And don`t you think the entire
neighborhood and the entire town and now the entire country knows what a creepy guy this guy is? They won`t take their kids there.
GRACE: So I take that to mean that you want him to give out candy. Okay, Galanter. What about it?
GALANTER: I agree with Mickey. He paid his crime. That`s why we have these sex registries so that the public can know. This is a parenting
issue. If the parents don`t want the kids to go up to this house for Halloween, then they should restrict the kids from going. But he`s not
breaking any laws. He complied with all of his restrictions. He is allowed to decorate his house any way he wants.
GRACE: Let me ask you two, you keep talking about what the parents know. What about the children that go out trick-or-treating on their own?
You never did that? You never went out? I went out with a pillowcase.
SHERMAN: Nancy, is there anybody in this community that does not know that this house has a registered sex offender? They all know. Everybody
knows. That`s why they have these registries. That`s why they were put in place, so neighbors could know so they could protect their children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A violent boyfriend shakes his girlfriend`s 2-year-old toddler girl with such ferocity, the baby`s fatal injuries could be mistaken for
those of a car crash victim. Little Casey never had a chance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the attack was so violent, the toddler`s injuries resembled that of someone who was in a car crash.
Officials allege after Gibson beat the child, he began shaking her to stop her from crying, causing the fatal head injuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor with Daily Mail Online. Candace, this child, I`ve had a lot of shaken baby cases.
But this child`s injuries were so fierce, she looked like she had been in a car crash. This little toddler girl. 2-year-old Casey. Candace, what
happened?
CANDACE TRUNZO, MAILONLINE.COM: Something happened to this man and he snapped. He had no previous history of violence. But he snapped and he
took this little girl. He probably beat her and he certainly shook her to the point where, you know, it was just horrific.
GRACE: To Dr. Joy M. Carter, chief forensic pathologist Marion County, author of "I Speak for the Dead," Doctor, I don`t understand how
this shaking, which causes internal brain injury, brain hemorrhaging, swelling of the brain. How does that look on the outside, like the child
had actually been in a car crash?
CARTER: Well, the brain and spinal cord are very delicate tissue. Especially in a small child. It is like shaking an egg and the yoke gets
mixed up when you crack that eggshell. We have to look inside of the body. Sometimes these injuries are not viewable from the external. So when you
open up the body and open up the head and you see all of this blood and damage to that very delicate tissue, this is the time of development, where
the brain really needs to be protected. And this is a violent shaking.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell, on the story, I don`t understand exactly what the scenario was. How did the boyfriend end up alone with the 2-year-old
little girl in order to shake her with such ferocity that the injuries were like she had been in a car crash?
ZARRELL: The boyfriend was a live-in boyfriend. We do not believe the mother was present at the time. The prosecutors have said that first
there was an assault, Nancy, and that the child was crying from the assault, which explains some of the bruising on part of the body. Then
this guy shook her to stop the baby from crying.
GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Patricia, I know this guy, this boyfriend, the live-in, didn`t have a criminal record.
It is really hard for me to believe that he had never assaulted, beaten a child before. That this was the very first time, and he killed a child.
At what point does the mother bear responsibility for who you leave the child with?
SAUNDERS: That`s a real good question. It may be that he has no legal history of injuring a child, but he may have a history, legal or not,
of beating up adults.
I have a lot of problems with the word snapped. With people like this, there is a build-up of violent rage. And it doesn`t take terribly
much to trip them off into violent behavior.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now live, Utah. A major search underway for a missing 30- year-old woman who vanishes from her upscale condo without shoes, money or phone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just at a loss.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is where 30-year-old Kayelyn Louder lives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her phone, her wallet, her dog that she loves more than anything was at home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walking out barefoot during a heavy rain storm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In my heart, I know she had every intention of returning home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Kayelyn Louder?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jim Kirkwood, KTKK, what happened?
KIRKWOOD: Nancy, this is really inexplicable. I remember that storm. and Utah is a dry state. It was really heavy. Unusually heavy for Utah.
And for her to go out like she did, she obviously was meeting somebody with a car to pick something up or talk to them or something like that. So this
is very suspicious. It looks like she`s been abducted.
GRACE: Everyone, we are talking about Kayelyn "Kiki" Louder. Joining me now, Officer Kenny Bass, from the Murray police department. Officer,
thanks so much for being with us. It isn`t making sense. Kiki disappears from her upscale condo. No phone, no shoes, no raincoat. What do we know,
Officer?
OFFICER KENNY BASS, MURRAY PD: Right now, that`s all we know. She`s left some of her personal items that she would normally take with her at
home and left her condo and has not been seen since then. Officers, investigators have been searching the area and have certainly sent out a
lot of information through social media in attempts to locate her.
GRACE: Everyone, tip line. 801-840-4000. With me, special guest in addition to Officer Bass. Parley Louder. This is Kiki`s brother. Thank
you for being with us. Isn`t it true that her dog was left behind? They were especially close?
PARLEY LOUDER, BROTHER: Yes, that is true. She never left her dog Phyllis for longer than an hour. She would always bring them to special
events. I know she had her dog Phyllis at my wedding.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She treated them like they were her children. Parley, I know she treated the dogs like they were her children. What would you say to
her if Kiki is listening tonight?
LOUDER: I would just tell her that I love her and we all miss her back here at home. If she could in some way maybe let somebody know that
she is okay. Or those who have maybe abducted her, let her go. That would be very helpful to everyone that loves her.
GRACE: Everyone, with me, the brother of missing woman, Kiki Louder. She disappears from her upscale condo. No shoes, no cell phone, gone. Tip
line. 801-840-4000. Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Specialist Robert Drawl Jr., Alexandria, Virginia. Bronze Star, Purple
Heart, buried in Arlington. A movie buff who loved Pittsburgh Steelers, favorite color, blue. Band, Insane Clown Posse. Parents Robert Sr. and
Yvette. Sister Jackeline (ph). Widow and high school sweetheart, Katherine. Two daughters. Robert Drawl Jr., American hero.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
