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Nancy Grace
Iowa Tot Killed for not Taking off Coat
Aired October 15, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. To Iowa. Mommy gets a call from day care her 3-year-old little girl, Autumn, unresponsive after
falling downstairs. Forty-eight hours later, Autumn dead, skull fracture, brain swelling. The injuries don`t add up. Tonight, did 3-year-old
Autumn`s baby-sitter beat her because she wouldn`t take off her coat?
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn a secret sweetheart plea deal in the works? That is just wrong!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day care provider is accused of killing a little 3-year-old because she refused to take off her jacket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Rochelle Sapp later admitted that she threw the child to the floor after the girl refused to take off her coat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Autumn Elgersma`s death was ruled a homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, music phenomenon 27-year-old Kesha claims her long-time producer, Luke Gottwald, AKA Dr. Luke, who signed her as a music
talent when she was just a teen, claims he plied her with drugs and booze, then attacked her, forced himself on her, repeatedly sexually assaulting
her. After voluntary rehab for life-threatening eating disorders -- PS, that`s a textbook symptom of sex abuse -- in the last hours, she unleashes
a stream of serious felony accusations to explain why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pop star Kesha.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) and the whole world`s curious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s accused her producer of physical and sexual abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was one of the first people on the planet to believe in me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To Iowa. Mommy gets a call from day care her 3- year-old little girl, Autumn, unresponsive after falling downstairs. Just 48 hours later, Autumn is dead, skull fracture, swelling to the brain. The
injuries do not add up, in my mind, to a fall downstairs.
Tonight, did 3-year-old Autumn`s baby-sitter there at day care beat her, beating the child because she wouldn`t take off her coat? But as we
go to air, we learn a secret sweetheart plea deal in the works? That is just plain wrong! What, because this is a 3-year-old little girl, her life
is somehow less than an adult`s life? Why are crimes at day care and crimes on children excused? It is not OK! Look at this 3-year-old little
girl!
To all of you that can hear my voice tonight, that have children in school, that have children with baby-sitters, that have children in day
care, when are we going to stand up and say enough is enough?
Out to Dennis Morrice with KLEM, the news director there. Dennis, thank you for being with us. We are getting wind that there is a
sweetheart deal in the works for this day care owner, who by all accounts has admitted she beat the little girl when the little girl very simply -- a
3-year-old -- a 3-year-old -- refused to take off her coat one morning!
DENNIS MORRICE, KLEM RADIO (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. We are -- we`ve been hearing the same thing. And in fact, that plea agreement
was supposed to be announced before tomorrow, when sentencing was to occur. Earlier in the week, we thought it was going to happen on Monday, but then
the state attorney general`s office from the state of Iowa asked the judge to grant them a little bit of a -- oh, I guess a little bit extended time,
I guess, if you will. We`re still anticipating that...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold on! With me is Dennis Morrice, the news director at KLEM. Dennis, hold on. Who is asking for
more time? Who needs more time before they break it to me and the public what this sweetheart deal is? Why do they need more time to announce it?
I don`t like dealings behind closed doors, Dennis.
MORRICE: Yes, I understand. It`s the state attorney general`s office that had asked for additional time from the judge. They do have a deadline
of Thursday. They have to make that announcement before tomorrow. So we`re...
GRACE: Why?
MORRICE: We`re still waiting to hear the...
GRACE: Why do they have to...
MORRICE: ... results of that plea agreement.
GRACE: ... make an announcement before tomorrow?
MORRICE: Tomorrow is the deadline in which the judge had stated that that would be when sentencing would take place. So the plea agreement has
to be announced prior to that time.
GRACE: Everybody, look at these shots of this little girl, 3 years old. The day care owner admits she slams -- slams -- the little girl down
when she refused to take off her coat. And that only leaves me to wonder how many times that child had been abused, all the while Mommy having no
idea what was going on.
To Frank Morano, radio talk show host on "The Answer." Frank, what do we know about what happened?
FRANK MORANO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): Well, we know that she has admitted, after changing her story, that she shoved this poor
little 3-year-old on the ground for refusing to...
GRACE: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait! Back it up to that video. Hold on, Frank. I know that on your monitor, you can`t see what I`m seeing. I
saw a little, bitty white coffin. I`m seeing her tennis shoes. OK, my daughter has those very same boots. When she was a little girl, she had
them, from Target. We are -- this is so wrong that this is a plea deal. I`m just -- I`m beside myself, Frank, beside myself!
MORANO: And you know, I think you have to fault the prosecutors, you know, as almost conspirators in the aftermath of the death of poor 3-year-
old Autumn here. I mean, I don`t think there`s a more reprehensible crime in the world than deliberately hurting and killing a 3-year-old girl, and
yet that`s exactly what happened here. And then to compound that guilt with a lie by claiming she fell down the stairs -- I don`t know that
there`s anything worse!
GRACE: You know -- Frank Morano with us, talk show host on "The Answer." Dennis Morrice, also with us, KLEM. Dennis, regarding the day
care owner changing her story several times, what were her various stories, Dennis?
MORRICE: Well, the first thing that she told investigators was that the little girl, the 3-year-old, Autumn, had fell down the stairs. And
then after investigators questioned her a little bit more and then started to look at the severeness of the injuries and the location, they decided
that that story was not truthful. So they pressed her a little bit more, and that is when Rochelle Sapp, the day care provider, then recanted her
earlier tale and said that, yes, she admitted that she literally picked up the girl and slammed the girl to the floor.
GRACE: I`m taking a look at pictures of Autumn. And there is the day care owner. She owned the day care. You know, Dennis, another question.
Have there ever been complaints about this day care or its owner before?
MORRICE: I`ve not had any indication about that before. One thing that did take place about a year ago, when this whole story first came
about, was that a news conference, and I had asked the question of the prosecutors -- county prosecutor, how many children were in her care at the
time of the episode, and he refused to answer that question. But I do not know of any episodes prior to this incident involving Rochelle Sapp.
GRACE: Back to Frank Morano, talk show host, "The Answer." Frank, I can`t think of any reason -- in all my years that I prosecuted felonies, I
never had a secret deal. Never did I have a secret deal. Why? Why is this a secret? Why doesn`t the prosecution want to know -- want us to know
what the deal is they`ve cut with this day care owner?
MORANO: Well, my guess is -- and hopefully, we`ll know more tomorrow, but my guess is they`re going to let her off with the proverbial slap on
the wrist because of...
GRACE: Oh!
MORANO: ... the supposed violations of her Miranda rights. Her attorney had been raising high hell that she hadn`t slept and hadn`t eaten
for two days.
GRACE: That`s not a violation of Miranda! Who said that was a violation of Miranda?
MORANO: Well, her attorneys are adding that coupled with the fact that she wasn`t Mirandized properly and that her text messages were
downloaded without proper consent.
GRACE: Wait a minute! Frank, Frank, Frank, just because a defense lawyer says it doesn`t mean that it`s true!
MORANO: Oh (INAUDIBLE), believe me.
GRACE: So just -- was there a ruling that this evidence would not come into trial?
MORANO: No, not to my knowledge.
GRACE: Well, then it`s coming in!
MORANO: You`re asking me to speculate why prosecutors are making an irrational decision.
GRACE: You`re right. You`re right.
MORANO: (INAUDIBLE) seeking justice for a 3-year-old. So I`m going to do my best (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Let`s talk about that. Let`s talk about what you just said, Frank. Let`s talk about what you said. Now, let me ask you another
question, Frank Morano. Has this thing been set down on the trial calendar?
MORANO: I don`t believe it has, no.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. With me, Peter Odom, defense lawyer out of Atlanta. He is a former felony prosecutor. Areva Martin, defense
attorney out of LA.
All right, every single trial I ever had, Peter Odom, every trial, you get a standard pack of defense motions at least this thick. And what you
guys do is you have it on a computer, and you just plug in the defendant`s name and print it out and you file a motion for a speedy trial, a motion to
sever co-defendants, a motion to quash all of the statements and the evidence. Please don`t deny it, Peter. Don`t waste my time.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I used to get the same packet of motions from the state, and everyone uses them. But mostly what we do is
analyze the evidence and figure out whether there are things that we can legally bring up. Now, chances are the prosecutors in this case saw some
weaknesses in their case. But let`s not speculate on what this secret plea deal is. First of all, it`s not a secret. It`s going to be revealed
tomorrow. You`re just complaining about the timing of the revelation.
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no! No, they have been asked what the deal is, and they`re not revealing it. Justin Freiman...
ODOM: They`re not revealing it now.
GRACE: ... isn`t that true?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right.
GRACE: The district attorney`s office has been asked, what is the recommendation, and they won`t tell. Why won`t they tell? And you know,
Justin, while I`ve got you, let`s talk about the possibilities. All right, first degree murder, she`s certainly not going to plead to that. Let`s get
all the lawyers in on this. First degree murder in that jurisdiction, sadly, they don`t have the death penalty, but you get life in prison
without parole, all right? So we know she`s not going to plead to the max. If she`s going to plead to the max, she might as well go to trial and hope
to get lesser included or a not guilty.
So you`ve got second degree, the max is 50. Voluntary, the max is 10. Involuntary, the max is 5. Here`s the kicker. Let`s see the lawyers. On
that, some of those could be straight probation, Areva Martin. She could actually plead to involuntary and possibly voluntary, and get straight
probation.
AREVA MARTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it`s not fair to talk about this case as if it`s some kind of aberration. You know as a former
prosecutor that deals are cut all the time. You save money in terms of going to trial. You prevent an appeal from going forward...
GRACE: OK, let me tell you something...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Cut her mike. Cut her mike. Cut her mike. I`m going to wait for you. OK, good. Areva, let`s just get this straight. I didn`t take a
probation plea on a murder charge, number one.
MARTIN: And we don`t know that this prosecutor...
GRACE: You didn`t cut her mike, sadly, because I hear her again. OK, let`s try that again. So don`t tell me what I know, number one. Let`s
just start with that. Now, let`s start this over. Go ahead, Areva.
MARTIN: We don`t know what this prosecutor is going to do. I suspect this woman is going to go to jail, Nancy. We`re just speculating. And you
know this kind of plea deal is made all the time in criminal cases.
GRACE: OK...
MARTIN: And this little girl is not being treated unfairly. This case is being brought to justice. And we should expect that this woman
probably is going to go to prison for killing this little girl.
GRACE: Back to Frank Morano, talk show host with "The Answer." Frank, what do you think has been -- what has been the response in the
community about this case?
MORANO: The community is as outraged as anybody else that hears about this. Now, they`re outraged in Iowa. They`re outraged in Sioux Falls,
North Dakota, where this poor little girl was airlifted to die two days after being thrown down for not putting on her jacket. Everybody has been
absolutely disgusted, which is why the charges were upgraded to first degree murder from child endangerment in the first place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first, the day care provider told little Autumn`s mother her child injured her head in a fall. Autumn`s mother
quickly took her child to the hospital, where she died two days later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Rochelle Sapp later admitted that she threw the child to the floor after the girl refused to take off her coat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn that a sweetheart plea deal is in the works, a plea deal that the prosecution -- neither the prosecution nor the defense
wants the public to know about. This day care worker first tells Mommy her 3-year-old little girl fell down the steps, later admitting she body-slams
the little girl when the little girl didn`t want to take her coat off.
Can you even imagine? Can you imagine leaving your child at school, at day care, at pre-K, and finding out your child is slammed to the floor
for not taking off her coat?
To Justin Freiman. What are the injuries to the 3-year-old child, Autumn? What specifically were her injuries?
FREIMAN: Nancy, she suffered severe injuries to her head. That`s why this was called a homicide. It was blunt force head injury, a skull
fracture and brain swelling.
GRACE: You know, the injuries -- out to Dr. Panchali Dhar joining me out of New York -- don`t match up with falling down the stairs. And I`d
like to point out that in the day care, the stairs were coated with a cover. You know, there will be, like, rubber or carpet on stairs to
protect children from hitting a blunt object. So it doesn`t really make sense. Plus, there weren`t that many stairs for the child to fall down.
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, PHYSICIAN: You`re right, Nancy. None of these injuries make sense. She died from brain death. That`s exactly what
happened. She was airlifted. She had to have gone to surgery to release the pressure in her brain. And I guarantee you she was brain dead. It`s
easy to see that.
GRACE: Another thing with the brain swelling, Dr. Panchali Dhar. Explain how that happens because of a blow to the head.
DHAR: OK, well when she was bashing the child`s head to the ground several times, she cracked the skull. And there was bleeding internally,
either on the surface of the brain or inside the brain. The brain started to swell. And the skull has limited volume. So it was causing
unconsciousness at the time when the child was found.
She was probably not even breathing, so she may have had a breathing tube placed just to secure her airway, airlifted to a hospital, where she
was probably taken to a neurosurgery operating room to open the pieces of the skull up. I`m sure there were depressed bones of the skull lodged in
the brain that had to be taken off. There may have been multiple fractures.
And you know, there -- I`ve seen cases where brain matter has been coming out of these patients` ears because it`s been just mushed up from,
you know, multiple trauma and pressure from skull injuries. So this is what can happen.
GRACE: You know what I`m thinking about, Dr. Panchali, as you`re talking? Every morning, when I leave the twins in the care of two
teachers, that`s what I`m thinking about. And you drive away, and I look back in the rear-view mirror and think everything`s OK. That`s what all of
the moms and dads think when you drop your child off and you entrust them to somebody else.
But I`m thinking forensically right now, Dr. Panchali Dhar, about this blow to the skull so severe, it actually cracked the skull. You get that
kind of an injury, for instance, on a car crash, when you fly off a bike and hit your head on the cement or on the curb or on the dash of a car. To
have a crack to the skull, that is a pretty severe blow to a 3-year-old child.
DHAR: Yes. And remember, with a 3-year-old, the skull is not all fully developed. So some of the bone places (ph) in the skull are not
fused. The bone is not as hard as an adult skull bones would be. So it`s a little bit softer, easier to crack. And I`m sure she had not just one
fracture, but several.
GRACE: You know, when I hear all this, Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, it makes me want to rip this microphone off my shirt and run home to the
twins! It`s just so hard to take in that somebody in anger would body-slam a child, a 3-year-old little child. She couldn`t have been over, what, 3
feet tall? Body-slam her because she wouldn`t take her coat off? I mean, when the twins do something like that, I go, OK, fine, keep your coat on.
I`d be mad if you didn`t. I want you to wear your coat. You can wear it to bed, if you want to.
And then, typically, Caryn, in about 10 minutes, they go, Wow, I`m hot, and they take their coat off. I mean, why would you body-slam a
little baby for not taking its coat off?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, you would only do that if you have tremendous problems with rage. This is aggression, and she had to have
been doing it very, very strongly for that to happen. And you need to believe, as parents -- and I know a lot of people listening are agreeing
with you right now and worried and concerned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She threw the child to the floor after the girl refused to take off her coat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say that her deadly head injury was the result of her day care provider, Rochelle Sapp, slamming the child to
the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doctors discovered the child suffered a fractured skull and brain trauma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn a sweetheart plea deal in the works. Is this day care owner going to walk with probation, with a sentence cut in
half? Why won`t prosecution or defense reveal what the plea deal is? Why isn`t she being taken to trial? Why is this case worth less because a
child is just 3 years old, as opposed to an adult victim?
We are talking about a little 3-year-old girl named Autumn. Her mom goes to work, leaves Autumn at the baby-sitter, the day care. The owner
calls and says that she has been injured falling down the stairs. That`s not what happened at all. After the day care owner changes her story
several times, we learn that this woman, 33-year-old Rochelle Sapp, body- slams the little girl, cracking her skull. The little girl dies of brain injuries.
Another thing, Dr. Panchali Dhar. I wonder how long she let the tot suffer because if you take the child to the doctor quickly enough, a shunt
can be put in. And what I mean by a shunt is -- it`s SOP now. You drill a hole in the top of the head, and you put a tube down, and the pressure of
the brain swelling because of the injury of the brain hitting the side of the head -- it`s like opening up a boiling pot. You let the steam off.
You let the pressure off and sometimes even opening up the skull so the brain can swell, and then go back down to its normal size. So if that had
been immediately, Dr. Panchali Dhar, the child may have lived.
DHAR: Yes, you`re right. I mean, time was important at the time. You`re absolutely right about the treatment. I think the best treatment
for this child would have been to open the skull up, leave the brain open, and let the swelling go down over time. She may have had a chance. So who
knows how much time was passed between her injuring and trying to kill this kid and calling the mom. I mean, you know, time was wasted.
GRACE: And we talk about it, Dr. Panchali Dar, it sounds so high risk, but that procedure is done on trauma units 50 times a day. Head
injuries. Boom, you open a skull. You open it up a little and let the brain swell. It`s just like when any part of your body swells, the
swelling eventually goes down. You keep the patient in a medically induced coma, and then they come out of sedation when the swelling has gone down.
You know, it`s bam, bam, bam. It`s standard operating procedure. But the delay. Back to Dennis Morris, KLEM. How long did she wait to report the
child was harmed?
MORRIS: That`s an interesting question, Nancy. We`re not certain. It sounded like that it was somewhat soon after. And that`s all the
authorities will say. It was soon after that the mother was contacted. But how much time that was, we don`t know.
GRACE: And another thing, with what you`re saying --
MORRIS: A few hours may have passed between that duration.
GRACE: And those hours are critical. Dennis Morris, KLEM and Frank Morano with The Answer. Dennis, the thing is this, treating the child
immediately could have saved her life. But then another thing is when you tell EMTs, oh, she fell down the steps. They might think she`s got maybe a
concussion. If she had told the truth at the beginning, the child maybe could have lived, because they would have treated the injury different.
Remember, they took her to one hospital and then realized the severity, and they air-lifted her somewhere else. At first because of this woman`s lies,
they didn`t know what had happened. So, okay, Frank Morano, talk show host with The Answer, what`s going to happen tomorrow? When are we going to
find out about this sweetheart deal?
MORANO: Well, we`re going to find out when it`s final before the judge tomorrow. Now we had short answers on this as early as Monday.
Prosecutors had refused to let anything out of the bag until tomorrow. The question you have to ask is why? If it`s a plea bargain that is in the
best interest of justice, why couldn`t we know on Monday?
GRACE: With me also, Dennis and Frank, is Rhian Evans Allvin, she is the executive director for the National Association for Education of Young
Children. Rhian, thank you so much for being with us. Another thing that`s disturbing me is how do you know about a day care? I mean, if you
go online, they`re really under no duty to say hey, we`ve been investigated five times in the last year by the state. We`ve had a ton of violations.
RHIAN EVANS ALLVIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NAEYC: This situation is definitely a parent`s worst nightmare and tragic all the way around. I
think choosing child care is one of the most important decisions a parent can make. And I think the very, very first step is looking at the
regulatory floor. And there are a number of child care providers across the country that are able to legally operate outside of the regulatory and
licensing system. So if I were a parent, I am a parent of a 6, 7, 8-year- old, the very first thing to look for is a program that is licensed and regulated.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now music phenomenon 27-year-old Kesha, bombshell claims. Her long-time producer Luke Gottwald, also known as Dr. Luke. He signed
her as a music talent when she was just a teen. Claims tonight he boozed her up, gave her booze and drugs as a teen, then forced himself on her
repeatedly, sexually assaulting her, raping her. In the last hours, she unleashes a string of serious felon accusations, explaining why at one
point she even went to rehab. Not for substance abuse, but for bulimia nervosa, and for those of you that don`t know, that`s a textbook symptom
eating disorder of sex molestation. Also, claims that he, in addition to the rapes, verbally and emotionally abused her, calling her as fat as -- as
an f`ing refrigerator, that she`s nothing without him, that she can`t make it without him. Kind of along the lines of Ike and Tina Turner. Remember
that?
For those of you who don`t know who Kesha is, she`s one of the biggest music phenomenon in the music field today. If you don`t know her, I
guarantee you your children know her, and they`re probably dancing to one of her songs right now.
Straight out to Alan Duke, CNN reporter. I`m very befuddled. As soon as she comes forward with these claims, the producer, Dr. Luke, who
discovered her -- I mean, really, she`s such a phenomenon, it`s like hiding a spotlight under a bushel. How could she not help but get discovered?
But Alan Duke, the minute she files, he suddenly files back claiming she`s making it all up and she`s defaming him. Then how can you explain the
bulimia nervosa?
ALAN DUKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was pretty remarkable. Obviously, his lawyer had a lawsuit ready to file. They did it in New
York. The counter for her lawsuit filed in Los Angeles. It was just hours later that we got the second lawsuit. And it is a very ugly situation
where this woman claims that her life was threatened because of the abuse by this producer.
Now let`s say -- you are absolutely right. Dr. Luke, I mean, he produced "Hit me Baby One More Time" with Britney Spears -- or one of her
big hits. Yes, Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Miley Cyrus.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Alan, are you actually telling me that that is his defense, oh, he`s so great? He`s a producer for Britney Spears? I
don`t care! I don`t care how great he is. Dr. Luke. Doctor of what?
DUKE: A doctor of producing hits. He`s got a huge number. But no, his defense is that this is extortion. That she made up these, as he said,
outrageous lies and fabrications in order to get out of her contract because she`s got a new manager who wants her to not be controlled and
obligated so they can move on.
GRACE: You know, Alan, I appreciate you putting the facts out there, but it`s just like, like scratching down a blackboard to hear it. Because
if she wanted out of her contract, do you really have to allege rape to get out of a contract? I don`t think so.
DUKE: I`ve never heard this before. That`s why this is so remarkable and ugly right now. I mean, the stories in the music industry. You`ve got
plenty of ugly stories, but this is about the ugliest I`ve heard.
GRACE: To Brad Lamm, addiction specialist and the founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers.
LAMM: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Brad, hello. Can you please explain to me, school me, I know a little bit. I don`t know enough about bulimia nervosa. This girl, she`s
a superstar. She had to go to rehab to fight this. And when I was prosecuting, when I see a child come in looking down, looking all beat
down, biting their fingernails down to the quick until they bleed, their grades suddenly drop. Their behavior changes. They don`t want to play
soccer anymore. They don`t want to go outside anymore. They either quit eating or overeat and vomit. To me, when I was prosecuting, I knew that
those are textbook signs of either abuse or molestation.
LAMM: Or trauma.
GRACE: Something bad. You school me, Brad.
LAMM: It`s so often that there`s underlying trauma when we see clients come into Breathe Life Healing Center, but bulimia or obesity, the
eating addictions that are so focused on how the body looks, what kind of food you put into it, how do you get rid of the food? When you think of
bulimia, it can also be overexercising to get rid of calories. But often, Nancy, the root of the self-harming behavior is right there, some sort of
trauma. Either big trauma like war or rape or sexual violence, or smaller trauma. Even we`ve seen bullying.
GRACE: You know what catapulted this onto the forefront, Brad Lamm, do you remember the movie "Girl Interrupted" with Angelina Jolie and
Brittany Murphy? Brittany Murphy`s role was a girl in a rehab center whose father had been molesting her for years. She would eat like a whole
chicken and then vomit it up over and over and over. That was when people first learned about it.
LAMM: I`ve worked in Hollywood for years, and the thing that sometimes makes those relationships so tricky is celebrities have a hard
time saying no to the people around them, that they owe their success to. So sometimes they`re very, very tricky relationships. I think that the
truth, hopefully it will come out. I sure hope that she gets the help that she needs to live a healthier, happier life.
GRACE: Well, this is going to be a problem. Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywoodlife.com, did she in conjunction with a civil suit, did
she file a police report? Because I guarantee you, that`s going to be a chink in the armor of her case if she never filed a police report. Unless
she knows, Chloe, the statute has already passed and there`s the statute of limitations.
MELAS: She has a really big attorney, Mark Geragos, who I e-mail and talk to daily, who released this really intense statement claiming that Dr.
Luke is responsible for all these things she has in the lawsuit. But I can tell you, Nancy, that at Hollywoodlife.com, we`re hearing that Kesha is not
making this up. That she`s had problems with Dr. Luke for years. She`s worked with him for ten years.
GRACE: Chloe, Chloe, Chloe. The question is, did she file a police report?
MELAS: No, not that we know of. No. She did not file a police report that we know of. These allegations are the first time we`re hearing
about this now. When she went to rehab, Dr. Luke`s name did come up, that he had caused her emotional distress.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: As we go to air, we learned music phenomena Kesha is claiming rape on Dr. Luke, the guy that discovered her. I don`t know how he could
not discover her. But he claims he discovered her, and that he made her a star.
Tonya Young Williams is with us, victim`s rights advocate with Safe Passage. Thanks for being with us. Why is it so hard for people to
believe that a star like her, remember, she was discovered when she was just a teen. Just a teen. I mean, her mother still works with her and
helps her write her songs. If you look at a lot of her releases, her mom is a co-writer. And apparently her mom blasted Dr. Luke and his people,
and of course, they`re holding that against him, too. Why is it so hard to believe that a woman, that is a star like Kesha, can be a rape victim?
WILLIAMS: Well, Nancy, it`s just as you said. He began to control her from a very young age. Domestic violence and abuse is all about power
control. He took advantage of her mind, her emotion from 18. And in her mind, he`s the reason she`s successful. So her self-esteem in the toilet.
Often,times you say how could she be a victim? Because she relied on him for everything and she was willing to do anything that he said, because she
was going after fame and going after success. But that still does not give him the right to rape her and abuse her.
GRACE: You know, one of the claims, Alan Duke, CNN Digital, she says that he gave her -- of course, he denies all of this. There is not a
police report. These are allegations. Let me put that out there. But I have noticed, Alan, in all my years of prosecuting, the more rich and
detailed statement is, the more likely it is true. One of her recountings, she says that he put something in her drink and she completely passed out,
akin to GHB, the date rape drug, and came to and she was completely naked. And that is -- to make up a story in that degree of detail, I find that --
I find it very persuasive.
DUKE: Yes. There`s another story too about her running out of his Malibu house barefooted over rocks and glass and hiding up in a mountains
to get away from him.
GRACE: Alan, did you just say she ran out of his house barefoot and ran over rocks and glass? Wasn`t it a highway?
DUKE: I think she was just wearing a shirt on Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu. You know, going up into those mountains, people have been lost
in those mountains with the wild animals and everything. She said that -- she detailed that. It`s a very detailed, ugly lawsuit.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Peter Odom, Areva Martin. Areva Martin, you want to tell me a woman, for no reason, would run out in public with
nothing but a shirt on and run over rocks and glass to get away from somebody? Do you think that`s normal?
MARTIN: You know what? I don`t think that`s normal, Nancy, but what is concerning me about this lawsuit is the lack of a police report and the
involvement of the mother. I have to ask, we know that Kesha was a teenager and a young adult, but where is the mom? Where is the supervision
of the adults in this situation?
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re saying. It`s the mom`s fault?
MARTIN: I`m not saying it is the mom`s fault, but the mom is there to protect her daughter.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So you`re actually claiming it`s the mom`s fault. Okay.
MARTIN: No, I`m not claiming it`s the mom`s fault. I`m claiming the mom was involved with this daughter and her music career. Where is the
supervision? We want to know about the credibility of these claims, we have got to ask about the people that were in her life, and the mom is the
first place I think we want to go.
GRACE: Have you ever actually tried a rape case?
MARTIN: Nancy, you have tried a lot of rape cases --
GRACE: I`m going to take that as a no.
MARTIN: We`ve got a denial of these allegations, and you know that independent witnesses are going to be very important in these cases.
(inaudible) occurred over a long period of time. So credibility is going to be a big question in a case like this.
GRACE: Peter.
ODOM: I agree with both of you to an extent. This case will hinge 100 percent on whether there`s corroboration of any of her claims. If it`s
just her word, then it`s very doubtful about its future.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Singer Kesha and her hit maker producer.
KESHA: One of my biggest strengths in the business.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Filed lawsuits against each other. She accuses him of making repeated advances toward her. Earlier this year, she checked
into a rehab center.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Matt Zarrell on the story, Matt, what can you tell me about her blood pressure and sodium levels?
ZARRELL: The lawsuit filed by Kesha claims that doctors at her rehab facility told her that her blood pressure and sodium levels were similar to
levels of patients following a heart attack or a stroke.
GRACE: Brad Lamm, what does that mean?
LAMM: When you`re constantly binging and purging, it means throwing up the food, it throws your levels off, it affects your blood pressure, and
it also often causes swelling of the neck and head. So it would not be out of the ordinary that when you go into treatment for an eating disorder,
like bulimia, your diagnostics would be all over the board.
GRACE: Brad Lamm, addiction specialist and founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers.
Let`s remember American hero, Army Sergeant First Class John Thomas Stone, Norwich, Vermont. National Defense Service Medal, third tour, known
as Doc. Set up medical clinics in Afghanistan. He walked the world, 22,000 miles through 29 countries. Loved hiking, the arts. One sister,
long time partner Rose. John Thomas Stone, American hero. Drew next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night,
friend.
END
