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Nancy Grace
Child Run to Death
Aired November 17, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Birmingham suburbs. A 9-year-old little girl sneaks a candy bar on the way home on the school
bus and fibs about the candy bar to her stepmother and grandmom. This takes evil stepmother to a whole new level.
Nine-year-old Savannah`s dad, stationed in Pakistan, races home when he learns his little girl lying in ICU on life support. Why? Stepmommy
and Grandmother forced the 9-year-old girl to run laps around and around the house while they sit by lounging. The girl runs laps until she
literally drops dead.
Tonight, Grandma caught on tape telling the girl`s school bus driver she`ll, quote, "run the girl" until she, quote, "can`t run no more." We
confirm Stepmommy and Grandma force the girl to carry logs as she`s running, the little girl`s arms covered in lacerations, the girl finally
crawling on all fours, begging to stop. Grandma and Stepmom show no mercy.
And tonight, a secret witness emerging who overhears Grandma and Stepmom at the hospital more concerned about their own cigarette breaks
than their child lying in ICU on life support over a candy bar.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Grandma wants the whole case thrown out. Death penalty, lethal injection or electrocution, but how
about a special exception for Stepmommy and Grandma? Shouldn`t they both be run to death?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On every level, this girl has been violated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An argument over a candy bar turned into an all- day marathon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Savannah`s grandmother made Savannah run around the outside of this house for three hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She just collapsed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m going to run her until she can`t run no more."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Arcadia, California. Kids love Dave and Buster`s -- fun, food, a warehouse full of video games arcade-style. But now not one but
two 10-year-old little boys sex molested in Dave and Buster`s bathroom, say cops?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inside the bathroom at Dave and Buster`s, lewd acts with a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocked, devastated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives say fondled boys when they were inside the bathroom at the Dave and Buster`s inside the Westfield (ph)
Mall. Both victims were 10 years old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And he`s known as America`s dad, but comedian Bill Cosby accused of multiple sex assaults.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. To Birmingham suburbs, a 9-year-old girl sneaks a
candy bar on the way home on the school bus and fibs about it to her stepmother and grandmother. Well, this takes evil stepmother to a whole
new level, Stepmommy and Grandma forcing the 9-year-old girl to run around and around and around the house carrying logs, her little arms covered in
lacerations. She`s finally crawling on all fours on the ground, asking Stepmommy and Grandma if she can stop. They show no mercy.
The little girl dies. To add insult to injury, Daddy is overseas in Afghanistan, flies home, eight flights to get home. He gets home, and he
only has four hours to decide whether to leave her or take her off life support.
In the last hours, Grandmommy wants the whole case thrown out. And before I go to our first reporter, J.T. Tyson, out of Birmingham, we also
learn that an ear and eyewitness say Stepmommy and Grandma at the hospital -- the little girl is on life support -- are more concerned about their own
cigarette breaks than the 9-year-old little girl near death.
Look at these two! Can you imagine Stepmommy sitting up on the front porch, lounging on her iPhone while the little girl runs around and around
and around the house, while Grandmommy brags to the bus driver, I`m going to run her until she, quote, "can`t run no more"?
J.T. Tyson joining me, morning anchor, WERC. Jeff, thank you for being with us. Let`s start at the beginning. The grandmother claims the
reason she was so upset about the candy bar fib is because the little girl, she says, has a bladder infection and caffeine made it worse. So what --
you know your child has a bladder illness -- if that`s even true. We can`t confirm it. So even knowing that, you make her run around and around and
around the house until the girl drops dead?
I want to get the facts straight. I understand -- this is our jumping off point. We know the girl had a candy bar on the bus. We know that. We
know she fibbed about it, all right? We know Grandma found out about the fib and forced her to run until she dies.
So let me ask you this. Can you tell us what this so-called bladder ailment the little girl has and then that`s why Grandma was so mad? What
can you tell me?
JEFF J.T. TYSON, WERC NEWS RADIO (via telephone): Well, there`s no confirmation of exactly what these illnesses were. And this is part of
what the defense is coming up with that because there were some illnesses with this girl, it wasn`t really the grandmother`s fault. You know, she
collapsed because of these other problems. It wasn`t the fact she was returning her around the yard for three straight hours without stopping and
continually berating her. As far as her illnesses...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! What do you mean, continually berating her? What was the grandmother -- how was she berating the 9-year-old?
TYSON: Well, she was screaming at her to keep going. She tried to slow down. She kept saying, Keep going. She`d stand up and walk in that
direction. I don`t know if she physically touched her during the three- hour period or not, or if she was so scared to death that just having her mom -- or stepmom and grandmother yell at her like this was enough to keep
her going. I mean, you`re talking about a 9-year-old kid who was clearly intimidated and scared to death of these people.
GRACE: As the girl crawled, begging for mercy, the grandmother allegedly says, Did anybody tell you to stop?
TYSON: Yes.
GRACE: Did anybody tell you to stop, as the little girl is crawling around the house. That`s according to the prosecutor. Now, this is what
we know. At this hour, the grandmother is saying that she shouldn`t be in jail because she has physical ailments. What are Grandma`s physical
ailments, J.T.?
TYSON: Grandma apparently had a stroke prior to this, and has also had...
GRACE: Whoa! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Wa-wait! Slow down! Slow down! Jeff, J.T. Tyson, you know what? You kind of buried the lead in that
sentence. Did you say Grandma had a stroke before all this happened?
TYSON: Yes. I`m not sure of the timeline on the stroke or if this happened after the fact. But the fact is that she has had some problems
with her health. Whether that`s...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute! Wait! Wait, wait! J.T., if she had the stroke before this happened, she obviously still had the strength to stand
on the front porch and threaten a little girl and make the little girl keep running. She had the strength and the wherewithal to do all that, am I
correct?
TYSON: Absolutely.
GRACE: All right. So all of her other ailments what, cropped up after this case? Because I don`t have any indication that she was infirm
before she was accused of this. Now, suddenly, she has all these ailments that make her say, I shouldn`t be in jail.
TYSON: Well, as far as I`m concerned, whether she had three heart attacks, two strokes or five biopsies is irrelevant to the fact that she
cruelly punished this girl to the point of killing her. And these capital murder charges should be in place here. And the fact that she`s sick and
suffering in jail -- I mean, are you and I going to cry any tears over that? I don`t think so.
GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you what I`m upset -- I`m upset about a 3rd- grader at Carlisle (ph) elementary school crawling around her house, begging her stepmother and grandmother to stop punishing her by running
literally until she drops. The little girl is dead, her father overseas in Afghanistan when all this goes down.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Miami Yale Galanter. Also with me, veteran trial attorney out of New York Alex
Sanchez. Let`s start with you, Sanchez. I don`t see any reason the state should not prosecute this grandmother and go for the death penalty.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I do. You know, she may be the worst person in the world and the worst grandma in the world, but the
question is, did this running that she evidently forced this child to do cause the death of this child?
And what you failed to mention, Nancy, is the fact that there was a medical examiner that performed an autopsy on this child, and he came to
the conclusion that the running caused the death of this child. Except that medical examiner has since been disciplined and that medical examiner
has been brought up on charges for fraud or some other type of charges there. So if their entire case is based upon this medical examiner,
they`re in trouble.
GRACE: OK, Alex Sanchez, this is a yes, no answer. The medical examiner has been disciplined for losing some files -- is there any
indication in a single case that the medical examiner`s diagnosis was incorrect?
SANCHEZ: Listen, the heart of this case...
GRACE: That`s a yes, no.
SANCHEZ: No. The heart of this case...
GRACE: No, no! No, no! No!
SANCHEZ: ... is what -- yes! No! There is no yes...
GRACE: You answer me!
SANCHEZ: ... no here. The heart...
GRACE: There`s not one single claim the medical examiner has ever been wrong in a medical finding. Is that correct, Yale Galanter?
SANCHEZ: We`re talking about this case. We`re not talking about other cases. And if you`re the medical examiner...
GRACE: Well, you`re talking about other cases, aren`t you?
SANCHEZ: If you`re the medical examiner...
GRACE: You`re the one that brought it up.
SANCHEZ: ... whose credibility is in question...
GRACE: You brought it up!
SANCHEZ: ... the people`s case are (ph) in trouble! And you know that!
GRACE: Cut his mike. Cut his mike. You`re the one that brought up other medical cases, wherein he had misplaced files and he had taken them
away from the crime lab to work on them, all right? You, Sanchez, brought up other cases.
Now, when I tell you, accurately, that he has never once been accused, to our knowledge, of a wrong diagnosis, you don`t want to hear about other
cases. So I`m going to let you decide -- you know what? I love it when you do that, when we cut your mike and you keep talking, OK? So while you
-- OK, open his mike.
OK, Galanter, what about it?
(CROSSTALK)
YALE GALANTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, I have to agree. I mean, it`s cause of death situation. They obviously do not...
GRACE: Wait. You agree with what?
GALANTER: ... get stepmother or grandmother of the year. I agree that we have to determine what was the cause of death.
GRACE: Well, we already know the cause of death.
GALANTER: You cannot send somebody to the death -- no, we don`t. You cannot send somebody to the death chamber if there was some type of
intervening cause.
GRACE: OK, hold on just a minute.
GALANTER: You know, if she had other medical issues...
GRACE: Let`s set up the facts.
GALANTER: ... that could have caused her death...
GRACE: We don`t know that! Hold on.
GALANTER: We...
GRACE: Let`s go to Dimaio...
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: And the fact that we don`t -- the fact that we don`t know that should all give us pause because there`s a difference between...
GRACE: OK, let me ask you two...
GALANTER: ... child abuse...
GRACE: ... gentlemen...
GALANTER: ... and murder.
GRACE: ... a question. Do you have a shred, I mean a thimbleful of evidence to suggest that there`s another cause of death? Has there been
any doctor, any health professional to say she, Oh, no, she didn`t die because of this? Do you have anything? You got anything for me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy -- Nancy, you and I, having been prosecutors for as long as we have -- you know, the rules say...
GRACE: I know where this is going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that the prosecution`s got to prove its case.
GRACE: I just asked you if you have a suggestion.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, so the answer is no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, if the prosecution cannot prove cause of death, then this woman should not be subjected to the death penalty.
GRACE: You know what? You two, basically, are lying because the truth is, a medical examiner has already named cause of death and it was
the punishment Grandma meted out.
I mean -- back to you, J.T. Tyson, anchor, WERC. The girl ran and ran and ran until she fell over, begging to stop. It was severe dehydration is
the cause of death, extreme dehydration and low sodium levels. That is the cause of death, and that came from running nonstop for nearly four hours.
I mean, was there an intervening act, J.T., that I don`t know about?
TYSON: No, there`s been nothing that`s come out that says anything quite to the contrary that this cause of death was because of this
grandmother running this poor girl to the point of collapsing, to the point of dehydration. And whatever that triggered and whatever domino effect
took place from there, ended up taking this girl`s life three days later.
Had this grandmother not run this child for three hours for taking a candy bar and eating it, lying about it, she would not have had the
seizure, she would not be in the hospital and then died three days later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This all started with 9-year-old Savannah Hardin eating a candy bar she wasn`t supposed to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Savannah ran around the house for three hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking a candy bar turned into an all-day marathon, so to speak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was so dehydrated that her sodium level and electrolytes had dropped to the point that, really, her 65-pound frame
reminded them of a marathon runner who had gone through an entire race without any water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 9-year-old child is actually run to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a 9-year-old little girl, Savannah Hardin, sneaks a candy bar on the bus and fibs about it. Her
grandmother and evil stepmother force her to run around the house after school nonstop, carrying logs, the little girl`s Americans completely
covered in lacerations. At the end of it, Savannah is crawling on all fours, begging to stop. Grandmommy and Stepmommy show no mercy. The girl
dies, her father at the time in Afghanistan.
Here they are. There you go, parents of the year, Stepmommy and Grandma. And tonight, Grandmommy wants the whole case thrown out, claiming
she has physical ailments that would disallow her being in jail. Yes, that`s right.
Now, the defense lawyers, Yale Galanter and Alex Sanchez, insist that we don`t know cause of death. Let`s go out to Dr. Vincent Dimaio, forensic
pathologist. Dr. Dimaio, thank you for being with us from San Antonio. The grandma says that this little girl had a bladder disorder, a very
common bladder disorder. The medical examiner, although he may have misplaced files or lost files, has never been impugned, ever, on his
medical findings.
So how does a common bladder disorder cause a death like this?
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): It doesn`t. If she had dehydration due to running for three hours, then it`s a
homicide. If she had underlying heart disease and she ran for three hours and died of it, it`s still homicide. So it`s going to be a homicide, you
know, whatever she has. The running itself was a contributory factor, and therefore, it`s a homicide.
GRACE: Dr. Dimaio joining us from San Antonio. Could you please make sure the defense attorneys, Alex Sanchez and Yale Galanter, are hearing
this. The medical examiner who performed the autopsy -- she says that this little girl`s body was as if she had run a marathon with no water at all,
for 30 or so miles for a marathon.
So what does that mean to us? What does that mean? What did the child go through? Why was she crawling on all fours, begging?
DIMAIO: Well, what happens is she was completely exhausted and couldn`t move. But the most important thing was, is if she had dehydrated
because of all this running, then she was in a critical state that can cause death, and the dehydration would have shown up when she was admitted
to the hospital. And if she had high levels of sodium, she was dehydrated. And people die of dehydration.
GRACE: Now, what would that -- what would she go through? What did this child experience in this type of three-hour-plus death? And I know
she was on life support, as well, waiting for the father to get home from Afghanistan.
DIMAIO: Well, when you`re running like that, what will happen is you deplete all the materials in your muscle, and you`re going to have severe
muscle pain. You collapse. You start getting confused. You`re having trouble breathing, and again, the muscle pain. And anyone who`s had spasms
of muscle knows that`s kind of painful.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, Yale Galanter. OK, Sanchez and Galanter, did you hear what the medical examiner just said? The
bladder, the alleged bladder problem this girl had, would have no bearing whatsoever on her cause of death. Did you hear that, Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: You know, by the way, Nancy, just for clarification purposes...
GRACE: What?
SANCHEZ: ... the medical homicide diagnosis by the doctor is different from a finding in a criminal court. Those are two separate
issues in the case.
GRACE: True.
SANCHEZ: So that`s important for the general audience to know. Otherwise, we might as well try cases in front of doctors. So that`s -- we
need that type of clarification here.
GRACE: OK. Next?
GALANTER: The other issue, Nancy...
GRACE: Did you hear what the doctor said?
GALANTER: Yes, I heard what the doctor said, but that particular doctor didn`t do the autopsy on this little girl. And again, there`s a
difference between child abuse and homicide. So what the prosecutor`s got to do...
GRACE: Well, what about felony murder, Yale Galanter?
GALANTER: ... is prove that the act of running -- felony -- it`s -- homicide`s a homicide, regardless of the label we put on it...
GRACE: No! You said there`s a difference between...
GALANTER: ... the cause and effect has to be proven. The running...
GRACE: ... child abuse and homicide.
GALANTER: The running...
GRACE: Is abuse that resulted in a death.
GALANTER: The running has to be the cause of death. If there was another cause of death...
GRACE: Well, I -- maybe I`m...
GALANTER: ... it`s a different charge.
GRACE: Maybe I don`t understand what you`re saying.
SANCHEZ: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: What?
SANCHEZ: ... I would like -- do you believe that this grandmother wanted to murder her child by forcing her to run? I don`t think anybody
believes that. She may have been negligent...
GRACE: Put him up, please.
SANCHEZ: ... she may have over-punished the child, but...
GRACE: I think that this grandmother...
SANCHEZ: ... she wasn`t trying to murder her.
GRACE: I think this grandmother intended to do the act, which is what the law requires. The law does not require, when I hold a gun up to, let`s
just say your head, and pull the trigger, the law does not require me to know that you`re going to die.
SANCHEZ: I know, but...
GRACE: The law presumes that I intend the natural consequence of my act.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: All right, don`t compare putting a gun to somebody`s head...
GRACE: ... to run for three hours until it drops dead...
SANCHEZ: Nancy...
GRACE: ... of course, the law presumes she meant what she did.
SANCHEZ: ... don`t compare putting a gun to somebody`s head to running. I don`t think anybody believes she wanted this kid to die. So
should she be facing...
GRACE: But that`s not what the law says!
SANCHEZ: Wait. Should she be facing the death penalty if her intention was merely to punish and not to kill?
GRACE: It`s torture. She tortured this child!
J.T. Tyson, can you imagine forcing a child to run until they die, carrying logs while the child is begging you to stop? And then we also
have her statement, which was caught on tape, I might add, where she says, Grandma says, I`m going to make her run. I`m going to run her until she
can`t run no more, J.T.
TYSON: No, it`s unfathomable. I`ve got two kids of my own that are grown now, in their 20s. But raising children, when you have young
children like that, and you get them into a position where you need to discipline children -- and I`m not opposed to disciplining children, but to
run a child that`s 9 years old for three hours straight without any water, without any break -- I mean, people don`t do that for marathons. They
finish them up prior to three hours. This is outrageous.
And let`s -- let`s go back a minute, Nancy. Back in 2010, let`s not forget the dad who filed for divorce back then and his assessment and his
claim his wife was bipolar, and alcoholic tendencies. This child was in danger from way back before this incident happened. This was a crazy
household setup, and it was just a powderkeg waiting to happen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, a grandmother and stepmother now facing charging they forced a 9-year-old little girl who
fibbed about having a candy bar to run around and around the house until she drops. The little girl put on life support. She dies as a result.
Medical examiner claiming this is the cause of death, that it is a homicide. This child`s levels of sodium so low and so dehydrated, she dies
a painful death. Matt Zarrell, what more can you tell me?
ZARRELL: Nancy, prosecutors have called this grandmother the drill sergeant from hell, and also to get into issue of evidence. The
prosecution says they have several witnesses who saw the child struggling for air and vomiting as she was running around and as she collapsed.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The witnesses see the child what?
ZARRELL: The witnesses see the child struggling for air and vomiting, and even that did not stop this grandmother according to prosecutors.
GRACE: Okay, Sanchez and Galanter. Neighbors see the child vomiting in the yard, holding, trying to keep holding up the logs, vomiting, holding
up the logs. I`d like to hear your response.
GALANTER: Nancy, the witnesses aside, we still need to focus in on --
GRACE: No, I want to hear your response to these witnesses.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Is this -- listen, I don`t know the credibility of the witnesses. I don`t know what they observed. If they were observing that,
why didn`t they report it to the police?
GRACE: How do you know they didn`t? How do you know they didn`t call 911?
GALANTER: We don`t have any evidence they did, Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: You take a household act, what was supposed to be a punishment, and grandmom ends up facing the death penalty. This was not an
intentional act.
GRACE: I`m okay with that.
GALANTER: We may have an intervening cause of death. This is not that type of case, Nancy.
GRACE: J.T., help me out here.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: It`s not a death penalty case.
GRACE: This child is standing in front of the grandmother and the stepmother who is on her iPhone laughing, she`s trying to keep holding the
logs, her arms are now bleeding. She starts vomiting down the front of herself trying to hold the logs, and the grandmother and the mom, step mom,
make her keep running. How can that not be an intentional act? Explain that to me, J.T.
TYSON: Thank God, Nancy, so there`s a judge that`s got some common sense and refused to dismiss these charges against this crazy woman and her
stepmother. It`s outrageous to me to listen to these two attorneys scream and cry and worry about this poor grandmother who is the victim in all of
this, when they ran this 9-year-old to death. For the love of God, this is outrageous that we`re fighting to try to save this grandmother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now to Arcadia, California. Kids love Dave and Busters, fun, food, A warehouse full of video games, arcade style. But now, not one but
two 10-year-old boys sex molested in the Dave and Busters bathroom, say cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom claims her 10-year-old was molested in the bathroom. 31-year-old man allegedly molested two 10-year-old boys at a
California Dave and Busters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the mall I`ve always felt very, very safe. It`s making me re-think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police asking the public for additional tips on any other potential victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Dan O`Donnell joining us, anchor with WISN, Dan, I don`t know if you`ve ever been to Dave and Busters. It`s huge. It`s humongous, and
it`s all fun. There`s video games. There`s games you get into. There`s physical games, like where you shoot basketballs. There`s everything
there. It`s a child`s dream, especially little boys this age and girls, of course, ten years old. Because up until about 5, 4 or 5, you may be too
young to play these games, but ten years old, that`s the sweet spot for Dave and Busters, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. My two young sons going there. They`re 7 and 4 years old. Yes, this really appeals to kids of all ages.
Adults love it too. Unfortunately, this alleged crime happened on two separate occasions at this Dave and Busters.
GRACE: I`m hearing in my ear we`re being joined by special guest, Lieutenant Colleen Flores, detective, bureau commander with Arcadia PD.
Lt. Flores, thank you for being with us. My concern, Lieutenant, is that there may be other boys, other children molested that we don`t know about.
LT COLLEEN FLORES, ARCADIA PD: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. We like to get this message out. I agree with you, there`s a chance
other victims could be out there. And that`s why we`re asking all members of the community to share this information via social media, news releases,
CNN, whatever you can do, to get the information out there in case someone else is a victim and hasn`t said anything.
GRACE: Lieutenant Flores, I have dealt with so many, I can`t even count how many child molestation victims, and for some reason, these
children carry such a burden of shame, like somehow it was their fault. Have you ever noticed that, Lieutenant Flores?
FLORES: I haven`t noticed that from a psychological standpoint, but in this instance, we had two different victims. One victim immediately
came out and told his mother, and the second victim came out of the bathroom after the incident occurred and took a couple of minutes to share
it with his dad. His dad actually recognized that his 10-year-old boy was acting a bit different after coming out of the restroom, and then he shared
what had just occurred.
GRACE: Lt. Flores, what exactly is the nature of the molestation? What did the perp allegedly do?
FLORES: The suspect in this case, there`s again two incidents, both of them 10-year-old boys, on different dates. In the first instance, the
father and his 10-year-old son and a toddler went into the restroom at the restaurant. The father took his toddler into one stall and the 10-year-old
boy went into another stall to use the restroom. The father exited the restroom with the toddler and told his older son he would be waiting for
him right outside. At that point, the 10-year-old victim went to the sink to wash his hands when he was approached by the suspect, who offered him a
penny, and the 10-year-old boy was a little confused and took the penny, and at that point, the suspect reached in, touched his genitals over his
pants.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: He`s often called America`s dad, but comedian Bill Cosby accused of multiple sex assaults.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This question gives me no pleasure. Serious allegations raised about you in recent days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was in a white t-shirt and panties. He was looming over me in a white robe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me the host of NPR`s "Weekend Edition Saturday," who conducted that interview with Bill Cosby. Scott Simon is with us. Thank
you for being with us.
SCOTT SIMON, NPR: Glad to join you.
GRACE: We all grew up watching Cosby, and he`s always in a fatherly role. I`ve been thinking a lot about all these sex allegations that have
been made against him. Were any of these cases actually prosecuted criminally?
SIMON: Oh, boy, Nancy, I`m not the expert on that. My understanding from reviewing what I did before I did the interview was no. They were
settled out of court. Of course now you have had a couple of people who have come forward in the past few months and years to say it didn`t even
get that far, for one reason or another. They filed supporting affidavits or offered to. In the case of the woman who`s been outspoken today over
the past 24 hours, she I thought made a pretty compelling case as to why. She told people about it at that time, but at that day and age, these kinds
of things would tend to be laughed off, and people would tell them, you know, welcome to show business. And then--
GRACE: Let me ask you a question. What happened during your interview with Bill Cosby?
SIMON: You know, we did not book an interview with him specifically to talk about this, as you might imagine. But also, we don`t avoid
questions that have to be asked. We were talking about the 62 pieces of really very exquisite art that Bill and Camille Cosby have lent to the
Smithsonian Institution`s Museum of African Art. And the question had to be asked. And as I got to the second or third word of my question, he
began to shake his head, in what I think those of us who love the Cosby Show would recognize as kind of his signature impish style and shake his
head no and wag his finger no. He did that every time I raised a question again.
GRACE: Basically, he came on NPR to discuss his art collection.
SIMON: Him and Camille Cosby, yes, Mr. and Mrs. Cosby together, yes.
GRACE: You asked him about the allegations and he did not respond.
SIMON: Yes. When they had approached us a number of weeks ago to talk about this extraordinary art that was being lent to the Smithsonian,
would we like to do an interview with them about that, on that occasion we said yes. Subsequent to that, after that of course, these allegations came
to light in a particularly vivid way, and began to dominate the Bill Cosby news, if you please. And so by the time we sat down to do the interview, I
certainly knew I had to include that question.
GRACE: With my Scott Simon from NPR`s "Weekend Edition Saturday." To Candace Trunzo, senior news editor Mailonline.com. Also with me Brian
Stelter, CNN senior media correspondent. Candace, here`s my concern. I typically represent crime victims, as a crime victim myself. None of these
women go to court and name him in court. So here is the duality. You`ve got all these women, if these allegations are true, then he has gotten away
with sex molestation, including a rape according to one woman. If these allegations are false -- and none of these women have been cross-examined,
none of them have gone to court and stood up in front of a jury and say, he molested me, if these are false, he has been besmirched. Those are the
only two choices there are, Candace.
TRUNZO: In many cases, they were afraid to come forward, because they had parents, because they were embarrassed, because they went to lawyers
and lawyers advised them that they would never be able to file suit.
When one of the women went and -- went to police and did try to get him arrested, unfortunately, the district attorney determined that there
was not enough evidence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: With me, CNN senior media correspondent Brian Stelter. Brian, another disturbing fact about these sex assault claims against Cosby, is
that several of the women claim that he molested them, but that they kept their friendship, they kept seeing him, hanging out with him, even after a
sex molestation. Brian, I find that really hard to take in. That a man molests you and you keep hanging out with him?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN: I would suggest, Nancy, that that -- first of all, that is strange. It sounds strange to me. On the other hand, we`re
looking at all of these through 2014 glasses, but we`re looking far into the past, we`re looking into the 1980s. At least in one of the cases,
1969. So we`re trying to apply present day values and standards and norms to something that happened generations ago.
GRACE: Hold on, Brian Stelter, would you please put him back up, please. Brian, true, one of the claims is back in the `60s. What about
all the other claims? They weren`t in the `60s. I mean, really? Not one person came forward and said, I was raped, I was molested. He needs to go
to jail. Not one person?
STELTER: I think what you`re saying is what a lot of Cosby supporters are saying to me online too, which is that these women and the media
together are trying to get this guy, to take him down, to drag him down. I talked to Barbara Bowman, the accuser who has been seen on CNN several
times. I asked her about this. I said are you out to get this man now? She said no, that time, that opportunity is long gone.
GRACE: You know, Brian, here`s what I am saying. I`m not on his side, I`m not on the lady`s side. I want the truth. I`m on the side of
whatever the truth is. The reason I`m so upset about this is because we`re never going to know, because they did not go to court. They were never
cross examined. Nobody can ask them questions. They didn`t go to court. It may have been in the `60s, but right is right. And if this is true, he
should have been prosecuted. And if it`s not true, then this is a big money grab. There`s no good answer.
STELTER: Right. And maybe everyone involved is damned if they do and damned if they don`t. NBC has got some show they are developing with him.
If they drop the show, walk away from him, they might be in trouble with him. Because if he`s totally innocent here, there may be contractual
trouble.
GRACE: You know what? Brian, contractual trouble, did you say that? Because it would be a cold day in hell that I got sexually assaulted and
then I do a deal and do a work project with my attacker. No, that`s even harder for me to swallow. Brian, is that why you`re saying some of the
women didn`t come forward?
STELTER: No, I`m saying there`s a current show in development at NBC with Cosby, and companies like NBC now face the situation if they break up
with Cosby, walk away from the work they`re working on together, then without any evidence that he actually committed these crimes --
GRACE: Brian, you know what? You know how much we love you, but my concern about some big network multimillionaires worried about their work
project, I`m not worried about that. I`m worried about justice, whether he did this or he didn`t do it, and these ladies are just trying to get money.
STELTER: That`s my point about NBC. If NBC walks away from him, if Netflix walks away from him, which has a series, a special, a comedy
special airing from Cosby in two weeks, if they walk away, he may be the victim in that situation, because he may be suffering commercially from all
these allegations that don`t have proof behind them.
GRACE: Dr. Sophie, Charles Sophie joining me from L.A., weigh in, please.
SOPHIE: I just think it`s unbelievable these are coming out. They have to be dealt with, and justice has to be served, as you`re saying,
because if people were abused, it has to stop. If he`s being abused, that has to stop. But justice has to prevail.
GRACE: You know, you`re right. I find it hard to believe, Dr. Sophie, that in any day and age that you -- out of all these women, not one
go to court. If this were true, I would have my attacker indicted so fast it would make his head spin, whether a jury believed me or not. I would
have my day in court.
Let`s remember American hero, Navy S.E.A.L. Senior Chief Petty Officer Daniel Healy, 36, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Afghanistan Campaign Medal,
loved football, martial arts, chess. Parents Henley (ph) and Natalie. Widow Amanda (ph). Son Jake, daughters Chelsea, Jasmine and Sasha. Daniel
Healy, American hero. Happy birthday tonight to Rita Cosby. In honor of her birthday, she`s asking donations to the Wounded Warrior Project at
woundedwarriordonation.com. Happy birthday, Rita.
Drew up next. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
