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Nancy Grace
Baby Dies Alone in Crib for 16 Hours; Female Teacher Accused Of Sex With Boy Student Demands To Go To Jazzercise Class; Cops: Mom Tries To Sew Girl`s Mouth Shut
Aired November 18, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Nokesville, Virginia, a beautiful baby girl, Avarice, found dead in her crib. Bombshell tonight.
Reports the baby girl left alone, neglected, unattended for at least 16 hours while Mommy and Daddy get their drink on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby girl, Avarice, left alone in her crib for 16 hours, unresponsive and not breathing. When police arrive, they were
unable to save the infant, who was pronounced dead at the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, St. Charles Parish, a 32-year-old female teacher, a mother of three children ages 3, 5 and 7, busted having threesome sex with
a teen boy student. In the last hour, the sexed-up teacher demands to the judge, I want to go to jazzercize class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two Destrahan (ph) High School teachers, 24-year-old Rachel Respess (ph) and 32-year-old Shelley Duframe (ph)...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The two met with a Destrahan High student after a football game. The three had sex simultaneously.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But now 32-year-old mom of three Duframe asking to attend jazzercize classes during her house arrest!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Avella (ph), Pennsylvania, an adoptive mom in hot water. The police claim she tries to sew her daughter`s mouth shut.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Nokesville, Virginia, a beautiful baby girl, baby Avarice, dead in her crib. Tonight, reports the baby girl left all
alone, neglected, unattended for at least 16 long hours while police say Mommy and Daddy get their drink on. That`s right, they leave the baby girl
16 hours, at least 16 hours, while Mommy and Daddy party drunk.
Straight out to Noam Laden with WABC. Noam, 16 hours at least?
NOAM LADEN, WABC RADIO (via telephone): At least 16 hours. So you have the father, Adam. He puts down baby Avarice, this beautiful 9-month-old
baby girl, into the crib 8:30 at night. Baby rolls over onto her stomach.
Mother comes home, the mother, Jasmyne, four hours later, three hours later, 11:30 PM. She doesn`t check on the baby. They start their party
anyways. Mom goes to bed at 3:00 in the morning. She still doesn`t check on the baby. Dad doesn`t go to bed until the following morning. Nobody
checks on baby Avarice until 12:30 the following day, 16 hours later.
And when they do, the baby`s not breathing. They call paramedics. They come in. Baby is declared dead right there on the spot in the crib.
GRACE: So hold on. Let me get this straight, Noam. The Mommy comes home from work and never even pokes her head in, never sees that the baby`s even
in the crib, nothing, immediately starts getting drunk with Dad, and then they sleep it off, then the next morning comes. That`s when they finally
go in there? Did you say around 8:30 AM?
LADEN: They go in -- well, no, it wasn`t until 12:30 the next afternoon, so it`s 8:30 at night before, they put the baby down. Nobody checks on the
baby until 12:30 the next afternoon.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing shots of baby Avarice. According to police, her parents neglect the child, the baby found dead in its crib. We
know of 16 hours at least -- you`re looking at almost a full day that they put the baby in the crib and leave it, never checking on it until the baby
is found dead.
To Officer Jonathan Perok joining us, the PIO at Prince William County Police Department. Officer, thank you for being with us. Do we know the
cause of death?
JONATHAN PEROK, PRINCE WILLIAM COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Unfortunately, Nancy, we don`t at this time. The medical examiner`s office
is awaiting these toxicology reports to make their final determination.
GRACE: So for all I know, this could be what, asphyxiation. It could be smothering. It could be blunt trauma. I mean, we don`t have any clue
right now what the cause of death could be, Officer?
PEROK: Unfortunately, we have what we believe occurred, but unfortunately, we have to await the official word from the medical examiner`s office.
GRACE: OK. So Officer, can I ask you, was the baby found with any bruises on its body?
PEROK: None to my knowledge, Nancy, no.
GRACE: Do we know if the baby had any marks around its face, nose, mouth?
PEROK: Unfortunately, I don`t -- I don`t have that information.
GRACE: And one last question, Officer. With us is Officer Jonathan Perok joining us out of Prince William, Virginia. Officer, had the baby soiled
itself or thrown up?
PEROK: Unfortunately, I don`t have that information, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. All right. Everyone, we are talking about baby Avarice, pictured here, left alone in a crib until she`s dead. Take a look at this
child. How many people in this country pay thousands, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars to try to adopt a baby like this? But her parents
leave her alone until she`s dead.
You can`t just leave it like a plant and it`ll be OK. It`s not like that. It`s not like a plant or pet fish, you leave it alone for hours on end and
think it`s OK.
Officer Perok, did the parents give any statement as to what they believe happened to their baby?
PEROK: They did not, Nancy, unfortunately, no.
GRACE: Back to Noam Laden joining me from WABC. Noam, had the parents tried to suggest that this was SIDS-related, sudden infant death syndrome?
LADEN: Well, we`re getting word that in the four weeks before this baby died, the parents had noticed that the child had had breathing problems.
Also, they hadn`t brought the baby to the doctor since she was 2 months old. So Avarice hadn`t seen a doctor -- you know, when you`re infant, how
many times do you bring that baby to the doctor, so often to the pediatrician?
In this case, she hadn`t been to the pediatrician since she was 2 months old. Now she`s 9 months old. She`s having breathing problems. They put
her down to sleep for 16 hours and don`t -- don`t -- you know, don`t go check on her.
GRACE: You know, Noam, I`m very suspicious about this breathing problem. When did that information come out. Before or after the baby`s found dead
did the parents suddenly reveal that she`s had breathing problems?
LADEN: Well, it was four weeks before, they apparently had expressed concerns that the baby had had breathing problems. But as far as we know,
they didn`t do anything about it. They didn`t bring Avarice to the doctor.
GRACE: You know, Officer Jonathan Perok, that bothers me even more because if they`re not making up breathing problems to blame the death on breathing
problems, that means they knew the child had a breathing problem, but they still didn`t check on her for nearly a day. They left her laying in her
crib, Officer!
PEROK: Correct. And that`s -- and that ties into the (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Yes, you know what, Officer? I`m glad you brought that up. Officer Perok, this is not about you. This is just a question. What I
don`t understand is why they`re not charged with at least manslaughter. They`re only charged with abuse and neglect.
PEROK: Right. That was the charge that, after reviewing the case with the commonwealth attorney`s office, that we went with at this time. Of course,
the commonwealth attorney`s office can always increase the charge or change that charge, as well.
GRACE: OK, I -- because I don`t understand that. Marc Klaas joining me, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, if the district attorney`s office
believes that this child was neglected, which clearly, it was -- the parents` own admission is they had not checked on the baby for 16 hours.
Now, that`s that we know of, all right? That`s that we know of. I`d be willing to bet money that it was much longer than that. The baby`s laying
there dead, all right, while Mommy and Daddy get their drink on and party when Mommy gets home from work. Forget about the baby.
So the baby`s dead. Why isn`t this a murder charge? And I`m talking about felony murder, Marc Klaas, because when you are committing a felony, such
as child abuse or child neglect, and a death occurs during that, that`s a qualification for felony murder. Why is this just neglect?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: That`s a great question, Nancy. I`m with you on this. I think that they should be charged with murder. This
just goes to show you what the ravages of alcoholism can do to destroy a family. This little girl was a secondary consideration. Booze was their
primary consideration, and her death is a result of that. They need to be held much more accountable.
GRACE: With us, special guest Officer Jonathan Perok, the PIO there at Prince William County PD. Officer, we know that the police reports are
public records, but for our viewers that haven`t gotten to read the police reports the way we have, what is the sequence of events? What do police
believe happened?
PEROK: Sure. We were called to the residence on the 5th of October at 1:00 PM...
GRACE: Who called you?
PEROK: The father did.
GRACE: The father did. And that`s at 1:00 PM. OK.
PEROK: Right, on the 5th. Through our investigation through the timeline of events, the child was placed in her crib between 8:30 and 9:00 PM on the
4th. Around 11:30 PM that evening, the mother comes home, and both her and her husband begin to drink at that point.
The mother reportedly goes to bed around 3:00 AM on the 5th, followed by the father around 9:00 AM. And then around 12:30 that afternoon on the 5th
is when the child was checked on.
GRACE: Now, hold on. You said the father goes to sleep at 9:00 AM?
PEROK: (INAUDIBLE) that morning.
GRACE: OK, I -- maybe I`ve got it upside down. Does he work a night job? I mean, why is he going to sleep at 9:00 o`clock in the morning?
PEROK: I am not aware of the timeframe that he works, but he was home. He placed her in her crib that night before, between 8:30 and 9:00, and then
went to bed at 9:00 AM the next morning and...
GRACE: OK, Matt Zarrell, let me follow up on what Officer Perok has just told us. Are you telling me the parents stay up and party and drink all
night long until 9:00 AM? They can booze it up, but they can`t check on the baby?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, according to what police are saying, Nancy, that`s exactly what happened.
GRACE: Well, is the dad working a night shift? Does that explain some of this?
ZARRELL: Well, from what we know, the dad works at a grocery store in the area, and I can`t imagine the grocery store`s going to have an overnight
shift.
GRACE: No. No. So Daddy is drinking until 9:00 AM. Mommy`s drinking until 3:00 AM. Daddy`s drinking until 9:00 AM while the baby is lying in
the bed dying.
OK, with me right now, Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and pathologist joining me out of Madison Heights. Hold on. Before I go to
Morrone, Noam Laden, before I ask his medical opinion, can you tell me what we know about the physicalities of the baby`s death?
LADEN: We don`t know a whole lot. I mean, you know, so far, the prosecutors haven`t released a lot of information. We know the charges
against this couple (INAUDIBLE) felony child neglect and abuse could get 10 years in the slammer. But the most we know is that, you know, the four
weeks before this baby died, there was some report that the baby was having breathing problems.
GRACE: Now to Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner and pathologist joining me out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, thanks for being with us.
Let`s talk about what we do know. I want your opinion on what happened to baby Avarice.
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: In this time, when we try to be sensitive to the parents, I think too many people jump to the diagnosis of
SIDS. SIDS is a diagnosis of exclusion. And we know that if you`re careful with your babies and you put them on their back and you observe
them and you check them regularly and you bring them to the doctor every month, they don`t die.
So the question is going to be, did this child suffer from malnutrition? Was there significant neglect that would almost reach the level of abuse?
Was there meningitis? Was there an infection? Was there a pneumonia? We don`t know that because we don`t know the health status.
A dehydrated baby can happen in one day. If you`re not feeding a baby -- you should be feeding baby every two to three hours. You should be giving
a bottle of juice or Gatorade or water or formula or milk or something. We don`t know that because there`s just -- too many people rush off and say
SIDS. This is more likely child abuse and neglect, and that`s what it sounds like.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police and rescue personnel found their 9-month-old daughter, Avarice, dead in her crib. Adam and Jasmyne Alexander put the
little girl to bed Saturday night about 8:30 and did not check on her until Sunday afternoon, some 16 hours later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Take a look at baby Avarice, this child left alone for nearly a day in its crib. We know of 16 hours.
That`s what the parents are admitting to. Mommy gets in at 11:30 at night and starts drinking. She continues to drink alcohol until around 3:00 AM
when she goes to sleep. Daddy continues the party until 9:00 AM. And during that whole time, neither of them check on the baby. This is even
though they now tell us that baby Avarice had a breathing problem they were concerned about, but not concerned enough to go check on the child.
Now, right now, according to the police department, Officer Perok with us saying that the medical examiner is waiting on toxicology reports. For
instance, was this child overdosed on benadryl, or was this child given alcohol or a sedative of some sort? That`s what toxicology is. Is your
blood, is the fluid in your body toxic for some reason?
I want to go back to you. Dr. William Morrone joining me, a renowned medical examiner and pathologist. You started off by saying SIDS. I would
not be surprised if the defense tries to argue SIDS, if this ever ends up in a manslaughter or murder charge, which, amazingly, Dr. Morrone, nobody`s
been charged in the child`s death, all right, while Mommy and Daddy are boozing it up, party drinking in the next room and the baby`s dying?
Nobody`s been charged with the child`s death at all, like it didn`t ever happen.
So you said something about SIDS being an exclusionary cause of death? What do you mean by that?
MORRONE: Here`s what we mean. When you really want to say, OK, this is a death by SIDS -- SIDS isn`t a disease. It isn`t a virus. It isn`t a
bacteria. It`s a syndrome that you first reasonably explain any possible reason why that child would have died.
And when you`ve gone through a list of reasonable explanations and a really good autopsy -- and toxicology`s important because sometimes, in certain
cultures, families have home remedies and they do things to younger children, stimulants or...
GRACE: No, wa-wa-wa-wait! Wait! Right there! Right there! You can`t just throw that out at me, Morrone, and...
MORRONE: Sure.
GRACE: ... I may not ask you about it. What do you mean, families use home remedies?
MORRONE: If there`s a special tea that`s brewed or a poultice or somebody puts liniment on a child, that`s absorbed into the blood. But we want to
know that that`s not going to compromise health. Now, this has already been identified as a child that may have had breathing problems but was
never checked out by a doctor. Breathing problems need to be checked out as soon as they find out.
You see a doctor every month. You give birth, and you go and you get a check right away. Then you have a two-month check. Then you have a
three-month check. Then you have a four-month check. And that whole first year, you should be following milestones -- weight, height, head
circumference and the child`s general health and hydration and nutrition. But also, the doctor has to say...
GRACE: OK...
MORRONE: (INAUDIBLE) doing anything (INAUDIBLE) family. What does your family do with children?
GRACE: I want to focus in on this SIDS defense that we believe is coming down the pike. Do Officer Jonathan Perok joining us out of the Prince
William County PD. Did the parents say they placed her to sleep on her stomach?
PEROK: The father did note that, yes.
GRACE: So they put her to sleep on her stomach, even though you`re told about 500 times at hospital, back-to-bed, put the child on its back?
PEROK: Right.
GRACE: That they`re...
PEROK: The child was placed in her crib, and she immediately rolled over onto her stomach and that`s how she was left in the room.
GRACE: OK. Back to Noam Laden, WABC, on the story. Noam, what more do we know about the baby? Did anybody hear the baby crying? Did -- the
grandmother was also in the home. Did she go check on the baby? Tell me.
LADEN: No, nobody. Nobody went and checked on this baby for that 16-hour period. Amazing as it sounds, from 8:30 at night until 12:30 the next day,
not a peep. Nobody walked in to check on the baby that we know of.
GRACE: Back to PIO Officer Jonathan Perok. Officer, how much did the mom and dad drink? I mean, were they so comatose they couldn`t hear if the
baby cried?
PEROK: Unfortunately, that`s part of the investigation. I can`t disclose that at this time.
GRACE: Do you know what they were drinking?
PEROK: I don`t, unfortunately.
GRACE: OK. Did anyone in the home, Officer, hear the baby cry?
PEROK: No, we have no indication of that.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell. Please explain to me why there`s not been a manslaughter charge in this case.
ZARRELL: Well, Nancy, I think -- my guess would be is that they`re waiting for cause of death because the felony homicide statute is pretty clear. It
says the killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intention of the parties, while in the prosecution of some felonious act -- the felonious
act being child neglect -- is murder of the second degree and is punishable by not less than five, no more than 40 years in prison.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of LA, Trent Copeland, out of Washington, D.C., Rene Sandler. To both of you, thank you for being
with us. All right, first of all, to you, Ms. Sandler. Explain to me why this should not be felony murder.
RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, you don`t have enough information yet for murder or manslaughter. We`re waiting for the autopsy,
toxicology. And one thing no one has mentioned are the characteristics of the sleeping environment of this child. That`s very important.
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re saying.
SANDLER: The sleeping environment -- were there other things in the crib that the baby could have asphyxiated itself on? Were there pillows? Were
there bumpers? What was the environment that this child was put down in? Those are characteristics that are very important to analyze.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this. You do know, Ms. Sandler, that the parents are charged with child abuse and neglect, correct?
SANDLER: Yes, I do.
GRACE: And that is a felony. And during that felony of abuse and neglect, a death occurred, and that is the definition of felony murder.
SANDLER: Nancy, we understand that. Why isn`t the grandmother charged? She was a caretaker, too. I`m sure there`s...
GRACE: No. She`s not. It`s the mother and dad.
SANDLER: She absolutely is. There`s no evidence...
GRACE: No, actually, she`s not. The mother and father are the caretakers. The grandmother was not responsible for the baby. And I`d like to redirect
your attention...
SANDLER: Sure.
GRACE: ... back to my question regarding felony murder.
SANDLER: Nancy, there`s not enough evidence at this early stage. As a former prosecutor, you know you`re always developing evidence. There`s not
enough right now for murder. There is absolutely...
GRACE: OK, let me follow up on that. Trent Copeland, you do understand that the parents are already charged with abuse and neglect, correct, and
that`s felony? Yes?
TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I understand that. I`m not certain that`s going to be the correct charge here in this instance.
GRACE: And you know a death occurred. Yes, I don`t think it`s a correct charge, either.
COPELAND: I know a death occurred.
GRACE: I think it should be murder. But when a death occurs...
COPELAND: I know that a death occurred...
GRACE: ... during a felony, that is felony murder.
COPELAND: Yes, but the predicate to that, Nancy, is that by virtue of the act that they undertook, that felony, whatever it may be, you may consider
it as simply leaving the child alone, that that has to be what`s called a proximate cause. And you know what that means, Nancy. That means it has
to be connected. There has to be a nexus between the act that they did and the child having a death. OK, so...
GRACE: Trent, they left the baby in the crib for nearly a whole day, Trent!
COPELAND: The fact that they left their baby in the crib...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Virginia couple is behind bars after police say they left their 9-month-year-old (sic) baby girl unattended in her crib for 16
hours. Police were called to the home, where they found little Avarice Alexander unresponsive and not breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, the defense claims that leaving a child alone in the crib for nearly a whole day is not neglect or abuse -- 16 hours that we know of.
And when Mommy and Daddy get home, what do they do? Not check on the baby, not change its diaper, not check to see if it`s vomited or tee-teed (ph) or
pooped. No, they get their drink on started drinking around 11:30 p.m. Mommy drinks until 3:00 a.m. Daddy, we understand until 9:00 a.m. when he
goes to bed.
The lawyers are joining me, Trent Copeland and Rene Sandler. OK, Trent and Rene, let`s talk about, you say this is not abuse or neglect. OK, 16
hours, that we know of the child is left alone in the crib. So Trent Copeland, what do you think would not be neglectful, checking on the baby
in one hour?
COPELAND: You know, I don`t know what the time line is Nancy, but anyone who is ever a parent understands that children can sleep for long periods
of time.
GRACE: Hours? Do you think you should leave the child for a few hours, Trent? They weren`t going to sleep. They weren`t sleeping.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No, you`re making up a scenario.
COPELAND: No, I`m not. You`re making up the scenario. I`m going to let you get it out of your system.
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: They told the police, gave them a timeline and didn`t hide anything. The reality is if you put your child to bed, you`re entitled to
go to sleep in the absence of something unusual happening.
Children can sleep for long extended periods of time and in fact, children who have sids could in a matter of moments, seconds, become unresponsive
and stop breathing and there`s really nothing --
GRACE: We`re about to have to go to a break. I think you`re through. Number one, these parents did not go to sleep. They stayed up and drank
until 3:00 a.m. for the mom and 9:00 a.m. for the dad.
So everything you said is based on, it`s like building your house on sand. You based your whole argument on lies because that`s not what happened. So
I`m going to try again with the other defense attorney Rene Sandler.
Rene, screaming -- leave your child alone, it`s not like you`re getting a good night`s rest, getting drunk, stupor, blitz. The baby is alone. When
does that become neglect in your mind?
SANDLER: We can take three hours off the top for the mom. She doesn`t get home until 11:30 so the timeline for mom starts at 11:30. Baby was put
down at 8:30 as my colleague has stated. Sids or a suffocation type death can occur momentarily.
So the timeline starts at 11:30 for mom and it goes through, she doesn`t have to check that baby every hour, Nancy. The baby, she believes, was put
down by someone else and the baby was safe. There is no evidence as to mom, none.
GRACE: OK, back to you. Matt Zerell, isn`t it true that the day the baby died, mommy, didn`t have time to check on the baby, managed to find time to
post online request for money donations?
Yes, just hours after the baby was pronounced dead, the mother posted my baby girl passed away yesterday morning, if we could raise enough to give
her a proper burial and help and then gives a link to a gofundme page asking for money.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live to St. Charles Parish, a 32-year-old female teacher, the mother of three children, ages 3, 5 and 7 busted having threesome sex
with a teen boy student. In the last hours, the sexed up teacher demands to the judge, I want to go to Jazzersize class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two teachers, Rachel and Shelley, had a sexual relationship with a 16-year-old student. The three had been hot and heavy
for some time, meeting for sex multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Files a motion with the court asking to attend Jazzersize classes during her house arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All right, a sexed up female teacher busted having threesome sex with a teen boy student. To Michelle Southern, assistant news director,
Louisiana Radio Network.
Michelle, she`s looking at decades behind bars and her complaint is she wants to go to Jazzersize class, I mean, why is she on house arrest to
start with instead of behind bars?
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, ASSISTANT NEWS DIRECTOR, LOUISIANA RADIO NETWORK (via telephone): Well, she was released on $200,000 bond at home after these
allegations were made, but with the provision she can only go to church and medical appointments and stuff like that.
And now, she`s asking after being arrested for carnal knowledge of the juvenile, which is a felony, if she can for her mental health attend
Jazzersize and help out more with her kids at home because they are so young and her husband works full time.
GRACE: OK, wait. I don`t understand. Why do you need to go to Jazzersize class when you should be in jail? Why do you have to go to Jazzersize in
order to help out with your own children at home?
SOUTHERN: Well, apparently, one of the things she is allowed to do is attend medical appointments because she has a mood disorder. And so, her
court records are claiming Jazzersize is an extension of that, of her medical health and to physical health.
GRACE: All right, hold on, Michelle, maybe I am not understanding the facts correctly because the headline here really shouldn`t be that this
teacher wants to go to Jazzersize, all right? The headline is that this female teacher according to police, that she had three way sex with a boy
student.
I don`t understand why she`s out on bond because if that picture was of a man and the victim was a little girl, he would be behind bars, but that`s
not so here, so how did this woman convince a judge to let her out on bond?
SOUTHERN: You know, according to police records, they indicate, too, that it was possibly her idea that this threesome take place, but she was
released on a $200,000 bond and then she`s conditioned that she stay at a home are pretty tight and then now, you know, records even indicate that
this might happen in a week or so.
GRACE: I`ll tell you, to me, being home in this place right here, that looks like a mansion. You know, that is nicer than about let me think, 92,
93 percent of the world living in. And she`s complaining, hold on.
I`m hearing in my ear, we are now being joined by Susan Auberte, who owns the Jazzersize Center. And has known the defendant for many, many years
and defends her. Susan, thank you for being with us.
SUSAN AUBERTE, OWNS JAZZERCISE CENTER TEACHER ATTENDS (via telephone): All right, Nancy, the only thing I have to say is this is America. She has not
been proven guilty. She is out on bond, yes, and until you`re proven guilty and go to trial, I thought everyone was considered innocent.
Yes, I mean, there are, there are things against her, obviously, you know, people know, people talk, can be a small, it`s a tight knit community and
that`s all I have to say. If she is allowed to go, then she is allowed to go. She has bonded out, so really, she should not be under house arrest.
Am I correct?
GRACE: Well, actually, the law is she was bonded out under the condition she remained under house arrest. Bond, you have conditions on your bond
and typically, in a child molestation case, that`s very difficult case to get a bond on, but she managed to get a bond and you`re absolutely right,
Susan.
Here, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. However, that does not mean that you get to go to Jazzersize and live in
your mansion, in your home, until you have trial.
Very typically, on a serious offense like this, you stay in jail until you have that opportunity to go in front of the jury, so your knowledge of the
law is correct. You`re innocent until proven guilty, Susan.
AUBERTE: I still go back to innocent until proven guilty and I am not judge and jury. I am not. I am a good Christian person. I am not going
to judge anybody, maybe I`ve got -- I`m blinded to this, but I just thought this was America.
And I would sure like my chance in court if I ever did anything wrong and I would like my opportunity in court and not be judged publicly. But that`s
the scarlet letter she has to wear, we know that.
But on the other hand, you know, this judge that placed this house arrest on her, I talked to a district attorney and he said the judge went way
beyond because maybe her daddy`s the judge, too, and had to make an example, that`s possible, to make an example of her.
GRACE: Did you just say her father is a judge?
AUBERTE: Yes.
GRACE: And is he a judge in this jurisdiction?
AUBERTE: Yes, he is.
GRACE: OK, so, the friend of her father on the bench lets her out on bond and excuse me, now, I have to wear a certain hat. Let me advise you, Susan
Auberte. That the hat I wear is because I`m a crime victim of violent crime.
And as I was trying to say, have represented more child molestation victims than I can even remember. I`ve had so many victims that have been molested
by adults just like this lady. And you keep on saying over and over, that you`re innocent until proven guilty.
Good. I`m glad of that. I have in interest in putting a guilty person behind bars. It`s very disturbing and I applaud you defending your friend.
But what we`re talking about or what police are alleging, she will have her day in court.
But I`m happy to find out that the judge that gave her bond, house arrest, who`s about to give her Jazzersize classes is a friend of her father, the
judge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live at Vella, Pennsylvania, an adopted mom in hot water. Police claim she tries to sew her daughter`s mouth shut.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother tried to sew her mouth shut with a needle and thread. They said they made her eat used kitty litter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, I just don`t even know how to start this. An adoptive mom tries to sew her daughter`s mouth shut with needle and thread. And there`s
mommy we`re talking about.
Janice Crompton is joining me from Pittsburgh "Post Gazette." Janice, thanks for being with us. At first when I first found this story, I
thought I was misreading it. And then when I read the whole thing, I realize the banner, the headline was correct. A mom tries to sew her
daughter`s mouth shut. What happened?
JANICE CROMPTON, PITTSBURGH, "POST GAZETTE" (via telephone): It is hard to believe, isn`t it? Apparently police found it hard to believe at the
beginning as well. But facts and a witness testimony from the school where the girl went, all backed up everything that she said.
And right now, both parents are facing felony charges of endangering the welfare of a child. The mom faced a whole list, a whole laundry list of
charges like aggravated assault, simple assault, reckless endangerment, that sort of thing.
GRACE: Dr. Romney Devasol with us from L.A. Dr. Devasol, did you hear what Janice Crotman just said? What takes over an adult? What does some
bully instinct take over and they do things to children you never do to somebody your own size? Try to sew her daughter`s mouth shut?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kids like this, we`re either dealing with someone so mentally ill they don`t know right, wrong or different or she is literally
a sadist. I mean, don`t underestimate that. Sadistic people can have children in their charge and they can do sadistic things to them.
Mommies are not all nice. This may be an example of that. She may even get off and get pleasure out of harming somebody else, including a child.
GRACE: Let`s take listen to what mommy has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you think you were a good mother? Do you feel that you abused her? Did you make her eat cat litter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any of the abuse allegations true?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you explain the head under the water?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her head was not under the water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you did say that it was?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was washing her hair. Yes, I am a good mother, a very good mother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say Rene Cooper hurt her adopted daughter --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you make her eat cat litter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you explain the head under the water?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was washing her hair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom was mad and bit my nose, twisting my neck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is so hard to believe, but cops say this woman tried to sew her daughter`s mouth shut. All right, Justin Freiman on the story, what do
we have to back up this claim, other than what the daughter is saying?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, according to police, the victim has multiple purple colored scars on all four
extremities, lower back and on her bottom. And she herself said she has scars and a big hole in her leg. Sometimes while her mother was abusing
her, the daughter was biting her at the same time.
GRACE: All right. Justin, I understand that there are bruises on her legs. You say her extremities. I`m guessing you mean legs and arms. What
is there to back up that this woman tried to sew her daughter`s mouth shut other than the daughter`s word? Was there a witness? I mean, this had to
be a loud commotion in the home. Do the other children witness to this?
FREIMAN: Well, they have interviewed other people in the house and all the authorities were saying was that it matches what the victim has said. But
there are so many different horrible acts. We`re not sure which ones are being matched up yet.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Trent Copeland and Rene Sandler. All right, first to you, Rene, and I want to you try to start all your sentences
without saying, Nancy, you know -- I want you two to try to focus on what you know, all right? Keep me out of this.
Now I was skeptical when I first heard the charges. If the other children, there are seven boys, I think, is the sibling count in the home. This this
is the adoptive daughter. They`re apparently backing up the story of the sister. That`s an eyewitness.
SANDLER: Which in and of itself is skeptical to me. Why is this coming out now? What other corroboration is there? Where were the teachers?
Where was Child Protective Services? What other adults were in the home? Why now? This child is older now. Why is this coming out now?
GRACE: Well, I think it is coming out at the time that it happened, right?
FREIMAN: It is actually come out over time. They say that she was abused for about seven years.
GRACE: Whoa! Are the brothers backing it up, Justin?
FREIMAN: The oldest brother says none of this happened.
GRACE: What about the others?
FREIMAN: They have not said.
GRACE: OK, but I know Janice, there is something that`s corroborating the story. Is that right?
CROMPTON: That`s right. In May, state police in Washington County were called to the school where the little girl went. Apparently there was a
children and youth investigation that was started due to some of the allegations that she made.
And teachers apparently over the years have kept records of injuries and other things they thought were suspicious, and when they would ask the
little girl, she would come one an excuse that they didn`t quite believe.
GRACE: You know, I thought that it is the law that when a teacher suspects child abuse, they have to report it. I guess not in jurisdiction.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Navy Petty Officer Second Class James Suh, 28, Florida, bronze star purple heart, a University of Florida
grad, father of Solomon, sister, Claudia, James Suh, American hero.
Happy birthday to tiny crime fighter, Brook, celebrating his first birthday with mommy and daddy. Mommy and daddy, Brad and Lindsey. Drew up next,
everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern until then, good night, friend.
END
