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Nancy Grace
Awaiting Grand Jury Announcement
Aired November 24, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) from the windows.
(SHOTS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He (INAUDIBLE) and he start running away from the cop. The cop follows him. Kept shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury has reached the decision in the fatal police shooting of Ferguson, Missouri, teenager, Michael Brown.
(EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kid body jerked as if he was hit.
(SHOTS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, CNN ANCHOR: Bombshell tonight. We are live in Ferguson as we await, along with the rest of the country, a decision from the Ferguson
grand jury. We are waiting right now. There are a multitude of choices from the grand jury. There could be a no bill, which is no indictment at
all and the officer walks free in the shooting of an unarmed teen, Michael Brown. There could be a murder charge, a voluntary manslaughter charge, or
an involuntary manslaughter charge. Joining me right now, Jason Carroll there on the scene. CNN correspondent. Jason, how long did the grand jury
meet and what do we know about the evidence that they heard?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, the grand jury meeting has been going on for the past three months before they finally
reached a decision and in terms of the evidence that they had to look at during the time that they were meeting, an overwhelming amount of evidence,
they had to hear from testimony, testimony not just from those who supported officer Darren Wilson`s account of what happened, but also
testimony from those who support what Michael Brown`s parents say happened out here, not too far from actually - from where I`m standing right now.
They also had to, as you know, Nancy, they had those autopsy reports. They had the private autopsy that the family had done. They had the autopsy
from the medical examiner to overlook as well. So, a lot of evidence that the grand jury had to see in this particular case, and part of the reason
for that is because the prosecutor, Bob McCulloch, as you know, he`s been heavily criticized by many people here in the Ferguson community, they
don`t trust him. They say he`s too close to law enforcement, and so as a result, McCulloch wanted to make sure a great deal of evidence, even
evidence that may not have been favorable to his case, was put in front of the grand jury. He knows a lot of people out here do not trust the system.
He wanted to make sure that the grand jury saw as much evidence as possible.
GRACE: With me there, in Ferguson, is Jason Carroll. I`m trying to figure out specifically if we know what came in front of the grand jury and/or who
came in front of the grand jury. Do we know any of those specifics, Jason?
CARROLL: Well, as you know, the grand jury proceeding is secret. And so, I think what we`re going to find out in probably within the next hour or
two are the answers to a lot of your questions in terms ...
GRACE: Right. Do we know if the cops testified?
CARROLL: What witnesses were there in front of the grand jury, what witnesses weren`t in front of the grand jury, what witnesses probably were
not there that some thought should have been.
GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding that the officer Darren Wilson came before the grand jury.
CARROLL: Yes, that is correct. Officer Darren Wilson did testify in front of the grand jury, as one would expect. He was one of those who was there
to testify. And we also know from speaking to some folks here in the neighborhood that there were a number of people here in terms of exact
number, can`t give that to you. But there were some people here in the neighborhood who actually supported Darren Wilson`s account of what
happened out here in Canfield, once again, not far from where I`m standing right now.
GRACE: To Colin Jeffery now joining me, the news director at KTRS, Colin, thank you for being with us. I`m just speaking with Jason Carroll about
who went before the grand jury. And as a matter of fact, of course, all grand jury proceedings are secret. OK, that`s the rule. They are not
deciding on guilt or innocence. They are simply deciding are they going to charge or not. So, Colin Jeffery, one witness that we all know who went
before the grand jury is the officer himself. Now, that is very, very unusual, as a matter of fact, contrary to what you may have heard before,
for a target of a grand jury investigation to actually go before the grand jury. Colin Jeffery, KTRS, how do we know that he went before the grand
jury?
COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS: Well, we heard from several people close to it and in fact saw him - you know, there were reports that people saw him entering
the building for - to testify that day, but what we don`t know is what he said. We do know that he went in there and couldn`t have a defense
attorney with him, which shows a pretty good amount of confidence on the part of the defense attorney saying that he could send his client in there
who is a subject of this very, very intense grand jury examination without an attorney there. So, they`re showing some amount of confidence in, you
know, not necessarily in officer Wilson`s story, but his ability to say things that couldn`t possibly be used against him.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me veteran prosecutor Paul Henderson, Robert Defense Attorney Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney and Jasmine Rand,
civil rights attorney with Parks and Crump who represent Michael Brown`s family. As a matter of fact, let me first go out to San Francisco and Paul
Henderson, Paul, isn`t it true that it`s extremely rare for the target of a grand jury investigation to go before the grand jury?
PAUL HENDERSON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: It`s absolutely very rare that that happens. And in Missouri, there`s a special rule that targets are allowed
to testify, but the reason that that is important is that when you are presenting complicated legal issues to a lay audience like a grand jury, it
is very persuasive, very persuasive when you have that target show up and articulate and argue their position and their defense. And that`s very
persuasive to an audience. Because you have to keep in mind there is no defense attorney there. There`s no judge there. It`s just that prosecutor
putting on the evidence, and so when you have an officer that comes up to testify, it can be persuasive.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Jasmine Rand. Civil rights attorney with Parks & Crump. Jasmine, thank you for being with us. Right now many
people are expecting a no bill, which is no charges whatsoever for this police officer that shot down an unarmed teen. I`ve been trying - I`ve
gone through the autopsy report over and over and over. I have lined it up to various statements and tried to make sense of it. Jasmine, what is your
belief as to what is about to go down? Everybody, we are live awaiting the Ferguson grand jury indictment decision at any moment. Jasmine Rand with
us. What`s your take, Jasmine?
JASMINE RAND, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTY W/PARKS & CRUMP LAW FIRM: You know, the family and the legal team is obviously hopeful that the jury is going to
indict. And as you said, this is not a finding against the officer. This is an indictment for him to go before the jury and have all of the evidence
in this case considered. So, although the family is hopeful, that is grand jury will indict and press charges against the person that killed their
son, you know, we`re also very skeptical because of the way the case has been handled from the beginning. You know, the fact that their son`s body
was left out on the street for hours, how evidence was collected, what evidence had been presented. Because we also don`t know all the evidence
that the grand jury was able to consider. So, at this point.
GRACE: Do you know any of the evidence that grand jury considered other than the police officer Darren Wilson, himself?
RAND: No. The family attorneys don`t know any of the additional information. As you know, the grand jury proceedings are secret. So, we
are not - to any of that additional information, but like most of the nation, we are very skeptical as to what the outcome will be.
GRACE: Everyone, we are live and taking your calls. And we are staying with it until the grand jury brings home either a no bill or an indictment.
What you`re seeing right now is the day of the shooting, the day that Michael Brown was shot down in this neighborhood. It all started right
here. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DISPATCH: Sir, we are taking a stealing in progress from 9101 West Florissant.
OFFICER: He`s with another male. He has got a red cardinals hat, white t- shirt, yellow socks. And khaki shorts. He is walking up ...
OFFICER WILSON: 21 to 25 or 22, you guys need me?
21. Put me on the Canfield with two. And send me another car.
DISPATCH: Frank 25.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (CRYING)
OFFICER 25: Need several more units over here. There`s going to be a problem.
DISPATCH: OK, we are taking a stealing in progress from 9101 West Florissant 9101 West Florissant. Subject may be leaving the business at
this time. Standby for further.
25, it`s going to be a black male in a white t-shirt. He`s running towards Quicktrip, he took a whole box of Swisher cigars.
OFFICER 25: Black male white t-shirt.
DISPATCH: That`s affirmative. She said he just walked out of the store.
OFFICER: He`s with another male, he`s got red cardinals hat, white T- shirt, yellow socks and khaki shorts. He`s walking up ...
OFFICER WILSON: 21 to 25 or 22, you guys need me?
OFFICER: Dispatch, can you relay? I couldn`t hear.
DISPATCH: He thinks that they disappeared.
OFFICER: Clear.
OFFICER WILSON: 21, put me on the Canfield with two and send me another car.
OFFICER 25: 25. I`ll put you ...
DISPATCH: 25.
OFFICER 25: Get us several more unit over here. There`s going to be a problem.
DISPATCH: Are there any available Ferguson units who can respond to Canfield and Copper Creek, advise?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s where it all started. And here we are tonight, live in Ferguson as we await a decision by the grand jury. Now the grand jury,
members themselves, have already left the building. They`ve been gone for hours, and we are just waiting, waiting for the announcement to be made.
We know that the decision was handed in hours ago at the very latest, but still no formal announcement coming out of the courthouse. Straight back
to Jason Carroll, CNN correspondent joining us on the scene. What do you make of the outcomes for Wilson himself if there is an indictment, if there
is not an indictment?
CARROLL: Well, either way, Nancy, it is very clear from those here in the community that Officer Darren Wilson will not be able to remain on the
Ferguson police department, even if he is not indicted. He would be a risk to himself. He would be a risk to the fellow officers if he was still
there allowed on the force. In fact, CNN has reported that there are already plans being drawn up for his resignation. In terms of his future -
- we also just heard word that in the last three months, while the grand jury was looking over the case, he got married. In terms of his future,
law enforcement here locally, his future here is pretty much done in terms of being a police officer here in Ferguson. Regardless of what the grand
jury`s decision is.
GRACE: With me, Jason Carroll on the scene. Also joining us right now Kizzy Davis, she is the owner of the Ferguson burger bar and more. She
opened the day before Michael Brown`s shooting. She knows Michael Brown`s family very well and Michael himself. Thank you for being with us.
KIZZY DAVIS: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Ms. Davis, in your wildest imagination, in all the years you have known Michael growing up -- I believe you refer to him as Mike Mike?
DAVIS: Yes.
GRACE: In all the years you have known him, can you believe we are right here right now waiting for a grand jury announcement regarding the shooting
death of Michael Brown?
DAVIS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It is horrific. It has brought chaos to the community as a whole.
GRACE: You know, Ms. Davis, explain to me exactly where Ferguson burger bar and more is in relation to what`s going on right now?
DAVIS: We are actually located at 91 20 West Floor (ph), which is right across the street from where Mike Mike has supposedly stole the cigarillos.
We`re also a block away from what they consider ground zero. So we`re right in the middle of what all of this is happening there. I`m sitting in
my parking lot right now and I`m looking at the media and individuals outside who are waiting for the verdict.
GRACE: Ms. Davis, what do you think of the fact that the police officer, officer Darren Wilson, has already been meeting with high-profile media
about his first interview?
DAVIS: I mean it`s very interesting. We`re seeing everyone take sides. And me, I`m appalled. We just can`t believe what`s happening. We`re just
waiting.
GRACE: You know, if I had shot somebody down, an unarmed teen, rightly or wrongly, I believe I would lay low. I would lay low and not be planning my
national debut on TV. But you know what? That`s a whole other can of worms. Let me ask you this, you have decided not to board up and close
your business tonight. Why?
DAVIS: That`s correct. However, there`s looting and rioting that have taken place. By the grace of god, we did not sustain any damage. So after
the first round back in August when all of the stores in our strip mall and across the street were vandalized and businesses had closed early, we
didn`t have any issues at that time. So now, we`ve decided to put faith in your community and to continue to serve and put faith in our god. That`s
basically where we stand. The landlord of the strip mall where we are, he almost tried to force us to board up. The other individuals, they did.
They boarded up and we opted out. He told us if you do not board up, you will be on your own. He will not assist us with any damages, but again, we
have faith. We`ll continue to serve our community as we did from day one. We`re just going to stay open and just pray that everything is okay.
GRACE: Ms. Davis, I`m hearing police sirens in the background. What is happening from where you`re sitting right now?
DAVIS: Actually that was an ambulance. I`m sitting in the parking lot at the burger bar. We have media on both sides of the street. We have people
out that are just standing and waiting. It is very calm right now. There are not very many officers around. In August, the streets were crazy.
Cops were everywhere, but we`re not seeing that tonight.
GRACE: All along, what`s your stance been in regard to Michael`s shooting?
DAVIS: For me, first of all, it hit home because, again, I know him and his family personally. He was not a bad kid at all. Typical teenager.
Maybe struggled a little bit during high school. His mom did the best she could raising him. He was not a troubled teen. Anything like that. The
video that we have seen, we were not able to hear exactly what was being seen, but at the same time, it didn`t look good. However, that`s not the
Mike Mike that I know. That`s not the Mike Mike I`ve asked about. Again, a simple teenage boy, not a criminal. Not criminal-minded. So this is a
tragedy. It really is. It`s a tragedy.
GRACE: You know, one thing, Ms. Davis, everyone always talks about how big Michael Brown is. You know, my son is 7 years old and he is already,
believe it or not, at 7, up above my chin. And he is the most gentle and the sweetest thing you`d ever want to meet, so the fact that Michael stood
tall, that does not mean that this was a violent teen.
DAVIS: That`s right.
GRACE: Everybody, we`re standing by. We are live right now, waiting to find out what the grand jury has decided. They decided hours ago, but
they`re holding the announcement. Why are they holding the announcement? But this is where it all started. We obtained sound, audio, of what we
believe to be the shooting as it went down. Listen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fires still burning in the hearts of protesters awaiting a decision from the St. Louis County grand jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of the unarmed teenager, Michael Brown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in Ferguson as we await the grand jury decision. Here are the choices. Number one, a murder indictment against the police
officer that shot unarmed teen, Michael Brown. Murder. Number two, voluntary manslaughter. Number three, involuntary manslaughter. And
number four, a no bill. In other words, no charges whatsoever.
Now, we also know this. The grand jury, itself, went home hours ago. They`ve left the courthouse. They are long gone. What`s the delay? What`s
the hold up in announcing? This grand jury has been meeting practically since the shooting went down. Why now? On the 11th hour before
Thanksgiving are we learning this. Ferguson in a state of unrest as everyone across the country awaits for the grand jury decision. Michael
Brown, 18, shot at least six times, including twice in the head. Experts differing on whether he was shot at close range. Multiple autopsies.
Officer Darren Wilson, 28, has been on paid administrative leave since the shooting. Six years on the force, clean record. He went before the grand
jury and testified without a defense lawyer with him. There you`re seeing a shot of officer Darren Wilson. I want you to hear this. This is a
credible eyewitness account.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He ran for his life. They shot him and he fell. He put his arms up to let them know he was compliant and he was unarmed, and
they shot him twice more, and he fell to the ground and died.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So he just got out of the car. Michael started running. I want to clear up that when we said he got shot at, from the
back, so while he was running away from the officer, trying to get away, he was getting shot at. (inaudible) the shot in the back of the arm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I have read all the statements over and over and over. I have studied what we know about the autopsy reports, trying to reconcile what
eyewitnesses say happened to the evidence as we know it tonight. With me right now, Shawn Parcells, forensic consultant, who actually assisted with
the private autopsy of Michael Brown. Shawn, thank you for being with us.
PARCELLS: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Shawn, at first I struggled with the eyewitness account saying he was running away at the time he was shot because most of the wounds, the
way I`m reading the report, are saying backwards, which I take to mean from front to back. However, there is the shot to the back of the arm. Could
that be the initial shot where these witnesses say he was running? He seemed to jerk like he got shot and then he turned around and put his hands
up. Reconcile to me what the witnesses are saying and what you know. You saw Michael Brown`s body. You helped perform the autopsy. School me.
PARCELLS: Yes. Well, the shot that we`re talking about is the one that came to the forearm in this region. It came in here and it exited out this
part of the forearm. So if I`m walking away from an officer and that part of my arm is down, this part of my arm is exposed to the back. And it is
very possible that the gunshot that they talk about in this witness account coming from the back, hitting his arm, and exiting this direction, and he
jerks his arm, could have been that particular shot. Also the graze wound that was to the front part of the arm right here also could have come from
that direction. However, keep in mind that if I`m also facing Officer Wilson, that if I`m running -- there was the allegation that Michael Brown
was running at officer Wilson and I`m running like this, that the shot could have come from the front or I could be putting my arms in a defensive
manner as the shots are coming at me, and that part of my arm could also get hit. Also, if he put his arms up as if he was surrendering, this part
of the arm is not exposed anymore, but this part of the arm where the graze wound was at is exposed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Unrest over the death of Michael Brown. Police in riot gear, facing off with protesters firing tear gas.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The grand jury fear has raise a decision. The most controversial case in this country.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We don`t want no violence.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Urging calm, regardless of what the announcement is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls, standing by in Ferguson as we await the grand jury decision. Will an indictment launch formal charges
against police Officer Darren Wilson, 28-years-old, now under suspicion of shooting the unarmed teen, Michael Brown? Straight out to the lines, hi,
Paula, what`s your question?
PAULA, CALLER FROM OKLAHOMA: Yes, Nancy, I just want to say first of all, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
PAULA: And my question is, if it had been a black officer that had killed a white boy, would all of this rioting and turmoil be going on? I
mean he was sworn in, you know, to serve and to protect, and I believe that he was doing his job. And I just don`t think that he needs to be indicted.
GRACE: Paula in Oklahoma, you`re right about police officers being sworn in to serve and to protect, and I believe, from the bottom of my
heart, that for the most part that is what they do. But let me ask you, Paula, what makes you so sure about what happened when Michael Brown was
shot dead? What do you believe happened and why do you believe that?
PAULA: Well, I was under the impression he had robbed -- had robbed a place and then that`s when he came in contact with the officer and then
that`s when all that other stuff happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Inside the St. Louis County Justice Center, a 12 member grand jury meets again, trying to decide whether to indict Officer
Darren Wilson in the fatal shooting of unarmed 18-year-old Michael Brown, and if so, on what charges.
DORIAN JOHNSON, FRIEND OF MICHAEL BROWN: His weapon was drawn and he said, "I`ll shoot you or I`m going to shoot."
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It`s not going to be the best because my son is still gone, but I`m going to get through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Everyone, thank you for being with us as we stand by live in Ferguson waiting for the grand jury announcement. The grand jury has left
the building, but the district attorney`s office is waiting I guess for just the right moment to make the indictment as to whether that grand jury
has chosen to indict Officer Darren Wilson. Wilson, believed to have gunned down unarmed teen, Michael Brown. Brown sustained at least six
gunshot wounds, including to the head. Brown, unarmed at the time he was gunned down. We just took a call from Paula in Oklahoma, who was
articulating why she believes that the officer should not be indicted.
Colin Jeffery joining me from KTRS. It`s not that clear about what happened. Most of the witnesses, the eyewitnesses, say that Michael Brown
had his hands up in the air at the time he was shot. And yes, maybe he did get into a fight with the officer when the officer was in his SUV. Maybe
that happened, but the fact remains that he was unarmed with his hands in the air at the time witnesses say he was gunned down. Now, Colin Jeffery,
if his hands are in the air, that`s not self-defense.
COLIN JEFFERY, NEWS DIRECTOR, KTRS: It`s not self-defense at the moment knowing that his hands are in the air. And there`s an important
distinction to make here in what we have heard from Officer Wilson, his account, is that there was an altercation in the car, and that conflicts --
and he shot Brown, you know, as he was approaching him. He thought he was being attacked. But what we know also is that witnesses said one thing to
reporters. We have heard statements from these witnesses to reporters saying he had his hands up, he was surrendering, what we don`t know is what
they said to the grand jury. And that`s an important distinction, when these witnesses speak to reporters, they`re not under any type of oath.
But when they sit before that grand jury and give their testimony, they are. And so, it will be interesting to find out if stories have changed.
And that`s why we are hoping that we get to see in the issue if there is no indictment, that we get to see the transcripts of this grand jury.
GRACE: Colin Jeffery, you`re the news director of KTRS, and I want to analyze what you just said. Everybody, we are live in Ferguson and we are
waiting for justice. We are waiting to find out if a grand jury is going to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of an unarmed teen.
Now, was it self-defense? Collin Jeffery has just brought up the correct point that when witnesses were speaking to the media or others they said
that Michael Brown had his hands up in the air at the time he was shot. Colin, that may be true, that one or two witnesses may have changed their
testimony at grand jury, but is it reasonable to think that all of them changed their testimony at grand jury? I think not. What do you think?
JEFFERY: I don`t think it would be reasonable to say that all of them. But again, that`s why we allow the grand jury to operate in secrecy,
so they are hearing these statements under oath without these witnesses fearing reprisal from members of their community if they do changed their
story or unclear.
GRACE: Right.
JEFFERY: So, if I think it`s reasonable that all of them? No, not at all. But --
GRACE: I`m just saying, Colin, I`m just saying that yes, yes, he stole from a quick trip or whatever it was. Yes, he had marijuana in his
system. Yes, he tussled with the cop, but that does not change the fact that witnesses say when the cop opened fire, his hands were up in the air
and that is not self-defense.
Matthew W. Horace is joining me right now. He`s the senior VP at FJC Security Officer, veteran law enforcement, veteran security expert.
Matthew Horace, thank you for being with us. How has law enforcement been preparing for just this moment, the announcement of this grand jury
decision?
MATTHEW W. HORACE, FJC SECURITY OFFICER: Well, Nancy, it`s been 115 days since the incident first happened. We learned when it first happened
and some officers admitted today that they were unprepared for what occurred that day because they couldn`t imagine what happened that day.
There`s been 115 days between then and now. Police departments have gotten together. It`s galvanized after watching the events. After August 9th,
they`ve developed processes and the procedures and protocols. And hopefully, hopefully when the verdict comes tonight, you`ll see a much more
command, a much more presence, a much more unified management and leadership control in and around Ferguson.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: An unarmed African-American teenager, shot dead by a white police officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The fatal shooting of unarmed 18-year-old, Michael Brown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Ferguson as we await a decision from the grand jury in the shooting death of unarmed teen, Michael Brown.
Shot, no doubt about it, by Officer Darren Wilson, but was it in self- defense? Now we know this. We know that Michael Brown had been in a convenience store and stole some cigars. We know that he had pot in his
system. We know that the police officer says he told Brown and his friend to get out of the middle of the road. Words were exchanged. We know that
the officer reached out and grabbed Michael Brown from inside the car. We know that a tussle ensued inside the car. That`s agreed upon by all
witnesses. That is where everything goes sideways. Shawn Parcells, would you agree with me so far? We can agree on that scenario up until that
point?
SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSIC CONSULTANT: Correct. You`re very correct.
GRACE: All right. Let`s take it from right there when Michael Brown -- a lot of people say, he was in the car reaching for the gun, the cop`s
gun, but the cop, I believe, agrees that he reached out and grabbed Michael Brown who was going to try to get away. Brown and his friend were at the
cop door. The cop tried to open the door. It bounced on them. It shut back again. He reached out and grabs them, is my understanding. Now we
also know this. We know the cop has a blow to the right side of the face with Michael Brown`s left hand. All right. Granted, I give you all that,
but how does is that turn into shooting somebody seven times? That`s where you lose me. I`m with the cop. I`m on his side up until right there. You
got to fight with a cop. All right. Fine. But do you have to shoot somebody seven times with their hands up in the air? That`s where you lose
me, Shawn.
PARCELLS: I agree with you. The big question is not so much what happened inside the car. First of all, this gunshot wound, the graze wound
to the hand, there`s debate about whether or not it really happened at close range. But even if it did, it doesn`t mean --
GRACE: I mean, wasn`t there blood in the car?
PARCELLS: There was blood in the car.
GRACE: The hand was shot at close range in the car?
PARCELLS: It could support that. It could also be from other injuries during the scuffle.
GRACE: All right.
PARCELLS: But it doesn`t support -- this gunshot wound doesn`t support he was 100 percent absolutely reaching for the gun. He could have
put his hand up to protect himself when he saw the gun.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! You`re going backwards. You`re going backwards, Shawn. And you`re the expert. You`re the one that helped
perform the autopsy. I`m okay with everything up until the officer gets out of the car because that is when the fatal shots went down. Don`t move,
Shawn. With me, Paul Henderson, Robert Schalk, Hugo Rodriguez, and Jasmine Rand.
All right. To you, Robert Schalk, weigh in.
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well Nancy, I mean, obviously, you`re sitting there talking to Shawn and asking him to give an opinion.
Does the autopsy conclusively say he was shot from the front or back? And he can`t give us a straight answer. And that`s very important piece of
evidence. Secondary to that, I think you`re kind of minimizing the gunshot wound to the hand. If this six-foot forth or 300 pound defendant was
inside that vehicle reaching for the gun, the officer discharged his weapon, the question is, is that reaction reasonable? And I think some
grand jurors are going to say, yes.
GRACE: Put him up. Put him up. I agree if Michael Brown has reached in to get the gun, I agree with that.
SCHALK: Right.
GRACE: With the officer fighting back. And you`re going back. I understand the officer`s reaction up until that point. If a man reaches in
my car, I will try to shoot his hand off, too. All right. But after that is when the death occurs. According to the witnesses, Michael Brown was
then running away and then turned back around with his hands in the air.
SCHALK: Those are the witnesses --
GRACE: That would be the time to call for backup and not shoot an unarmed teen.
SCHALK: Those are the witnesses who have come forward to speak to the media. We don`t know who`s testified in the grand jury. There could be
additional witnesses that support Officer Wilson`s narrative.
GRACE: True. Rodriguez?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, I think you`re missing several things.
GRACE: Okay.
RODRIGUEZ: First we have an assault and a battery on a law enforcement officer which is a violent felony.
GRACE: Agree.
RODRIGUEZ: You then have a violent felon fleeing the scene. So the question is, does the officer perceive that his life is in danger or
possibly a third party`s?
GRACE: Put him up, please.
RODRIGUEZ: That is what the grand jury has to contemplate. That is what the grand jury is considering. They`re going to listen to a lot of
witnesses, a lot of forensics. And in this case, I don`t think it`s conclusive. It is not conclusive at all.
GRACE: Hold on. You left something out of that scenario, Hugo. I agree with you on everything you said except there were too many witnesses
saying the teen had his hands in the air. There`s too many witnesses for all of them to be lying. And if his hands were in the air, then that is no
longer a self-defense. I don`t care if he`s a cop, I don`t care if he`s an angel that flew down from heaven. That is not self-defense when the hands
were in the air.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Witnesses say it was unprovoked, police just shot the 18-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Causing the officer to confront the boys. First from his car. Then got out of the car, firing a shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: He wasn`t causing any harm to nobody.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It was a night of terror.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: You took my son away from me. You know how hard it was for me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Ferguson awaiting the grand jury decision, and we will stay with it until that grand jury announcement is
made. Did the grand jury indict the officer charged with shooting down an unarmed teen, Michael Brown? That`s what we`re waiting on. Here`s the
alternatives. An indictment in first-degree murder, second-degree murder, voluntary, involuntary, or a no bill which is no charges at all.
Being joined right now by Stephanie Elam, CNN correspondent. Stephanie, what do you know at this hour?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are still waiting to find out what that decision is, and it is rather remarkable that it`s been in
for several hours now and we still don`t know what that decision is by the grand jury. I`m here in Clayton, Missouri, which is where the grand jury
was convening in the building right here behind me. And where we expect to find out what the fate of Darren Wilson will be. But out here on the
streets in Clayton, it is a much different scene than it would normally be on a Monday night. Most people are gone. Office buildings in the area
closed down earlier. Some shops right here closed down early. We know school is canceled -- after-school activities. Other schools canceling
school for the entire week. So people are prepared to stay away for this grand jury ruling to see how everything plays out tonight -- Nancy.
GRACE: Everyone, joining me Stephanie Elam, CNN correspondent. We are live in Ferguson as we wait along with you for a grand jury decision.
There is no doubt about it, Michael Brown, the unarmed teen stole some cigars from a convenience store. There`s no doubt he had been smoking
marijuana. There`s no doubt he had words with the police officer and the officer grabbed him from inside his SUV, pulling him into the car. There`s
no doubt about that. It`s after that that things went very, very wrong. Now, there you saw an encounter with Brown inside, there you go, inside the
convenience store. He`s leaving right there with the cigars. What happened? Whether we like what he did right there, whether we like him
taking the cigars or not, that does not change the fact that witnesses say he had his hands up in the air when he was shot. Did they change their
stories in the grand jury? We don`t know.
END
