Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Waiting for the Ferguson Grand Jury
Aired November 24, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: There`s no doubt he had words with the police officer and the officer grabbed him from inside his SUV, pulling him into
the car. There`s no doubt about that. It`s after that that things went very, very wrong.
Now, there you saw an encounter with Brown inside -- there you go -- inside the convenience store. He`s leaving right there with the cigars.
What happened? Whether we like what he did right there, whether we like him taking the cigars or not, that does not change the fact that witnesses
say he had his hands up in the air when he was shot. Did they change their stories in the grand jury? We don`t know.
Back to Stephanie Elam, CNN correspondent. Stephanie, do we know where the police officer is tonight?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, we don`t know. We haven`t known where he`s been for months. We have not seen him in public since
August 9th, since we just -- the most recent video we have of him is from the video from inside the police station, the security cameras in there.
That`s the most recent video we`ve seen, but that is from August 9th.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s see that video, Liz.
ELAM: ... where he is...
GRACE: Let`s see the video that Stephanie is talking about. Now, Stephanie, I think this is the video where it`s after the incident and he
has come to the police station and he`s going to the hospital. Is that correct? Is that the video you`re talking about?
ELAM: That is the video I`m talking about. That came out -- we`ve seen this within the last couple of weeks. This is the newest videos we
have of him, but it is still video from August. We have not seen him.
The most that I can tell you about, we just learned today that he got married at the end of last month. We just learned that today, that that
happened. But otherwise, he has stayed out of the public eye. And many people are wondering, Nancy, whether or not he`s even going to continue
with the Ferguson Police Department. We`ve heard...
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this right now...
ELAM: ... that he may be avoiding that.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I can tell you right now he`s not just thinking about it...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: How could you be his partner...
ELAM: There`s not -- I know, but whether or not -- when that timing is going to happen is the question.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. Because it would put any partner at risk. I`m sure he would be worried, I would think he would be worried that his
partner would be in jeopardy, much less his own life could be in jeopardy after all of this.
But Stephanie Elam, what do you think is the slowdown? Why has it taken so long? What -- what -- did they wait until after the election?
Didn`t the district attorney run again? Wasn`t he just sworn in again?
ELAM: There`s a multitude of reasons why it could be, and I`m not sure of any of them. As far as the reason why it took so long today, why
it`s been hours since we know that the decision has been in, and we are now not finding out until 8:00 o`clock local time here -- there are a few
things that I know were in play early on, that there was concern from schools, if school was in session, about how parents were going to get
their kids home safely. There was also the concern about people who work in the areas that were affected by that. So I`m wondering if that`s
playing into a part of it.
I wouldn`t imagine that law enforcement would want to have this at nighttime and have, perhaps, this decision come out in dark, but that is
the case. It`s also the time of the year that we`re in. So we`re sitting here, waiting for this at night. And if you remember, in August, when we
first saw those clashes between protesters and police, the most rampant ones, the ones where there were really those agitators, not really the
protesters but the agitators who came out -- those were at night. That was always at night. So a lot of people worried about what this could mean.
But I can tell you, people here, a lot of people staying away from Clayton and also staying away from the police station in Ferguson unless
they want to be out there protesting at this point.
GRACE: Also with me, in addition to Stephanie Elam, joining me is Kizzie Davis, who is right there downtown. She`s the owner of Ferguson
Burger and Bar. She insisted on staying open tonight -- many other shops have boarded themselves closed -- and knows Michael Brown`s family and knew
Michael Brown as a youth.
Kizzie Davis, what are you seeing around you?
KIZZIE DAVIS, KNOWS BROWN FAMILY (via telephone): Right now, it`s pretty calm. We have customers, and it`s people outside lined up again.
You hear a little -- a little noise from individuals that are chanting "No justice, no peace," but not a lot. It`s much, much calmer than what I have
seen in the past.
GRACE: What do you mean than what you`ve seen in the past?
DAVID: When this first had taken place, the chanting was much, much louder, and it was groups -- I mean, it was hundreds of people out here.
That`s not the case tonight.
GRACE: You know, my thinking, Kizzie Davis -- and I`d like to find out what your thoughts are -- if Michael Brown had fought with the police
officer and the police officer had shot him during the fight -- I mean, you do not go up and fight with a police officer, period, or you`re going to
get shot!
If the police officer had shot him during the combat, during the fight, that`s one thing. But by almost all witnesses` accounts, he had
left, turned back around and held his hands up. That is a different scenario, Ms. Davis.
DAVIS: Correct. I totally agree with everything that you`re saying. However, that`s -- that`s -- that`s not the case. Not everybody agrees.
As you can see, some people feel like, you know, the officer was in the right. However, the amount of times that Mike-Mike was shot and the
distance away from the police car -- I mean, that`s unacceptable. It really is. It`s totally unacceptable.
And back to the question of the caller that called in -- the question -- well, the comment that she made. I don`t think that -- even if it would
have been a Caucasian boy that was murdered by a cop unarmed, for me, I think that a person losing a child, no matter what race, is a huge deal. I
don`t think that just because he`s black that -- you know, (INAUDIBLE) should be taking place. I think that (INAUDIBLE) takes place, even if a
cop shoots a white boy, as well, for me. I think that as long as -- either way. Either way.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something. You know, in all the years that I`ve prosecuted, most of the victims that I represented were
African-American. Most of the defendants that I put behind bars were African-American. And when they were -- the defendants were white or when
they were African-American, my juries really didn`t seem hung up on that.
But I can tell you this much. If those witnesses are telling the truth that his hands were in the air, that`s a whole `nother story.
With me right in my ear right now, Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, thank you for being with us. Daryl, this
is what I`m saying. A, I`m glad you`re with us as we`re waiting for the grand jury to return a verdict. B, if the fatal shot had been fired when
they were fighting, when he was in the police car, his arms were in the car and the gun goes off and shoots him then, that`s one thing because when
you`re in a fight with a police officer, you can count on one thing. You`re going to get shot.
Number two, from what we`ve been told, Daryl, Michael Brown ran, turned around, and held his hands up. What am I missing here?
DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: You`re not missing anything, and I think -- a little part I would add to that is this, Nancy. When Michael
Brown left the car and the officer got out of the car, Michael was running away. The officer continued to shoot at him even as he was running away.
So Michael turned around said, Hey, stop shooting, and the officer continued to shoot.
And so without question, the injuries that Michael received were caused by the officer. They were excessive. And we believe it was a gross
use of force, given the situation. And we -- you know, I agree with you, too, also, if the witnesses, the many witnesses, I mean, over six witnesses
who all gave very similar accounts -- this grand jury has to come back with an indictment.
GRACE: Well, this is one thing that I think is hurting Michael`s case. In that video of him taking the cigars at the convenience store,
he`s a bully. He pushes -- see? Now, watch this. He pushes the guy. The guy`s, like, No, no, no, and he comes back after him. See, that`s hurting
him because it`s making him look like a bully, like he`s the bad guy. And in that scenario, he is the bad guy.
But I don`t care if he`s a bully. I don`t care if he took some cigars. It`s not the point. The point is, did he have his hands up in
surrender regardless of who he is, regardless of what he had ever done, regardless if he had used marijuana? It doesn`t matter. What matters was,
his hands -- were his hands up in the air? Was he surrendering?
Now, I`ve got to ask you something, Daryl. You studied this in and out, up and down, sideways. What can you tell me about the gunshots, from
the front or the back?
PARKS: Well, it depends. There`s several different -- number one, you now know a little bit more about the gash to the hand that resulted at
some point, that was received. But also now, we can tell you that after Dr. Baden was able to do his autopsy and look at the findings, that the
gunshots may have been six, possibly seven shots that Michael received. Now, were those shots in various parts of the body? Some were entrance
wounds. Some were exit wounds that he received.
GRACE: OK. Now I, of course, know, Daryl, that some were entrance and some where exit, but what I`m trying to figure out -- do they support
the police officer`s story or support Michael Brown`s story? I know you know the answer to this, Daryl. How far away from the police cruiser was
his body?
PARKS: Well, I can`t answer that specifically, but we know it was a great amount of distance between him and the officer because Michael had
ran away. I think the significant part, though, in this situation, though, is the kill shot that Michael received. We know that the kill shot that
Michael received was one at the apex of his head and went from a back direction forward.
And so given that fact, it`s very clear that Michael was in a very subservient (ph) position to the officer, shouldn`t have been a threat to
the officer, given the fact that his head was down to that degree, but yet the officer still shot him.
GRACE: Daryl, tell me this. How -- now, what`s right and wrong, what`s true and not true is a different story. But I know what Michael`s
parents believe happened because I would believe my son. I would believe the best in him. And I want to know how they are doing.
PARKS: Nancy, they`re not doing well. You know, we had -- I had a chance to spend a full week with them two weeks ago as we traveled to
Geneva, Switzerland, and had a very -- you know, two weeks of just up close, personal time with them, just them, no other family around, just the
two of them, along with Mike`s wife, as well. She went with us.
But it was rather clear that they are on the edge right now, and they are just at a point where they really need something to happen to this guy
who killed their son. And they are believing that this grand jury will still do the right thing.
And so I can tell you as we left Switzerland to come back to the United States, you could feel it within them, in their eyes, that they
really, really, really were very anxious to get to the point we are today. And so they are certainly with bated breath as we get ready to hear.
GRACE: Daryl, what do they expect to happen? What is their expectation? We`re waiting for the announcement right now. What do they
believe? Have they been told anything?
PARKS: They expect an indictment. They have not been told anything. They don`t know any more than you know at this point. And so they`re
waiting also to learn what it is.
One of the problems that they have is it seems very apparent that some of the authorities may know more. At least with all the preparation and
some of the statements, you kind of get the feel that they -- some of the other people, authorities or public officials, know a lot more about what`s
going on and what`s about to take place. They know nothing.
So I hope the system doesn`t fail their expectation of being able to come back and give Michael Brown, Jr., justice for his death. And so they
remain very optimistic. They refuse to think about the other side...
GRACE: Hey, Daryl, we`re showing the video right now of where -- I think where the cruiser is in relation to the body. And it`s a good
distance. If that`s the correct cruiser, it`s a good distance from the cruiser. So he was a good distance away, at least 25, 30 feet from the
cruiser.
PARKS: I think 25 feet sounds about right. He had ran some. I think, as you recall during Johnson`s (ph) testimony, Dorie (ph) Johnson
talks about Mike running past him, and yet the officer continued to shoot at him. So it was obvious that Michael had created some good distance
between himself and the officer when the officer continued to fire upon him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An unarmed African-American teenager shot dead by a white police officer, dividing the city of Ferguson, and in time,
sparking a national debate. At the heart of this case is whether 18-year- old Michael Brown was surrendering when he was shot dead by 28-year-old Officer Darren Wilson or whether the officer feared for his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Ferguson as we await the grand jury decision. Will they indict the police officer that gunned down
Michael Brown?
The only chance, in my mind, having reviewed the evidence as we know it, is if the officer believed that Michael Brown was armed. Otherwise, he
would have shot a young man with his hands up in the air in surrender.
We are hearing that protest crowds are now gathering as we await the decision, the announcement. Will there be an indictment? These are the
choices -- murder one, murder two, voluntary, involuntary or a "no bill" -- in other words, no charges whatsoever.
We understand that in the last month, the officer has married a co- worker. What will his future be on the police force? You know what? Let`s burn that bridge when we get there. Let`s first talk about justice.
Before we start worrying about what the officer is going to do next, let`s talk about what happened here and now.
With me is Daryl Parks, the attorney for the Michael Brown family. Colin Jeffery is joining me from KTRS.
Colin Jeffery, it`s like a Rubik`s cube. I`ve looked at this thing, as has everybody else, every which way there is to look at it. And the
only way I can see the officer walking on this is if he convinced this grand jury he believed Michael Brown was armed because, I mean, when you
look at where the cruiser was, his cruiser, and where the body was, Brown was a distance away. And according to the eyewitnesses, if they told the
same story at grand jury, his hands were up in the air.
It`s not like he was close to the officer about to attack him. There was no sign of a gun. What do you make of it, Colin?
COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS (via telephone): Well, that`s -- it`s been -- this debate, this question you`re asking, this is something that`s not
divided the community, but it`s a discussion that the community is having as a whole. You know, was this a justified case of an officer using force
because he feared for his safety or the safety of the neighborhood?
And you know, it`s -- I don`t want to say it`s been divisive, but it`s definitely brought a lot of passion out of the community trying to figure
out what`s going to happen. The only hope is that we get this decision and people are able to look and say, The process worked and we feel confident
in how it worked out.
As to what I make of it, you know, it`s -- it`s really -- I`m glad I`m not on that grand jury because there`s a lot of evidence. There`s a lot of
pressure being put on these people right now to come up with a decision that carries ramifications beyond just Ferguson and St. Louis.
GRACE: We are hearing from "The New York Times" sources, Daryl Parks, attorney for the Michael Brown family, that the officer has been told --
has not been told to turn himself in. That means a no bill, if that`s correct. What do you make of it, Daryl?
PARKS: Well, I hope it`s wrong, and I don`t know how "The New York Times" would know in advance of the decision. And again, that would be one
more situation where this family would have total distrust in this process.
But let me add another point to -- while we`re talking about the process, too. Nancy, you are a former prosecutor. It`s not normal that a
prosecutor who is trying to get an indictment would pretty much do what we would call a data dump on the grand jury and not be very vocal about his or
her desire to have an indictment in the case.
And so that being the case of what we`ve seen here from this prosecutor`s office draws some very serious concerns about whether or not,
if we don`t get an indictment, of how we arrived at this position. So we`re very concerned about that.
GRACE: You are seeing live shots of crowds now gathering as we await the announcement of the Ferguson grand jury decision.
With me is Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. You know, I learned one thing from the district attorney that I worked for, who
was the longest-serving DA in the country at the time, 30-plus years. He said, Don`t speak to the press. Never speak to the press until after your
case is over. And then remember there`s an appeal coming.
So I`m not surprised the district attorney did not make any pronouncements one way or the other because, you know, you`re damned if you
do and you`re damned if you don`t, Daryl. You know, if the DA comes out guns a-blazing, then that`s a ground for argument on appeal or to move the
jurisdiction, the venue of the trial. But if you don`t say anything, then you`re accused of not caring.
So I don`t put any stock on whether the DA said anything or didn`t say anything. But what concerns me is this officer, we`re hearing, has not
been told he`s going to have to turn himself in.
I`m just grappling with the fact that you can shoot somebody seven times at 25, 30, 40 feet distance that`s unarmed with their hands in the
air, and that`s OK. I don`t care if he`s white, and he`s African-American. I don`t care! But to shoot somebody seven times at a distance, that`s the
part I don`t understand Daryl, unless he thought Michael Brown was armed. How could he have thought that?
PARKS: There`s no way he could have thought that. I mean, there`s nothing to indicate that Michael Brown had a weapon on him at the time when
he ran away from the officer and turned around and tried to surrender to the officer. So there was no reason to kill him at that time.
Even further, though, Nancy, there`s a good indication the officer knew that Michael may have been hit already by one of the bullets. So
Michael was already wounded from the initial altercation with the officer. It`s very clear that he did receive one of the bullet wounds while he was
at the car with the officer. So there was no reason to shoot Michael the way this officer did.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A critical question -- was Brown charging toward the officer when the fatal shots were fired, or was he backing away?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police have suggested he was the instigator, physically assaulting the police officer inside his cruiser, struggling to
take his gun. Some witness accounts say Brown was running from the officer and appeared to be surrendering, his hands in the air at the time he was
shot and killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live in Ferguson, and you are seeing protesters gathering, as we are live awaiting the announcement of
the Ferguson grand jury decision.
The grand jury has reached a decision. We know that. The choices are murder one, murder two, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter,
or a "no bill," which is a decision not to indict the officer at all.
We are getting word from "The New York Times" that Officer Wilson has been told -- he has not been told that he`s got to hand himself in. And
that`s what happens when you`re indicted. So why is that? Is this going to be a no bill?
You are seeing live shots right now of what all of us are seeing, protesters gathering. The storm is brewing in Ferguson as we wait for the
grand jury announcement, the grand jurors themselves long gone. They have left the building. This is what they left behind. Right now, we don`t
know the whereabouts of Officer Darren Wilson.
With me right now, Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, I thought the district attorney was going to tell Michael`s
family ahead of time what the decision is.
PARKS: No, Nancy, that was not -- there was no agreement. The only agreement we had with them was that they had to notify us prior to making
the decision, they had come to a decision. They had no duty to notify them what the decision actually was. So there`s no obligation on their part.
However, decency would indicate that they would want to let us know before...
GRACE: To prepare them.
PARKS: -- they would let the public -- yes, for sure. Now they`ll have to react to whatever it will be and go from there. And so, I mean,
this family has always had some serious concerns about how they`ve been treated through this process.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing our chopper shot looking down on where the announcement will take place. We are live in Ferguson, as we all
stand by awaiting that grand jury decision. Now, so many people, and I hear you, are saying, well, he fought with the police officer. Yes, they
did tussle. The police officer grabbed him from inside his car. His SUV. And jerked him forward, and the two struggled. By eyewitness accounts,
Michael Brown started running. That is when the shots ensued. Now, if witnesses are telling the truth, multiple witnesses say Brown`s hands up in
the air and in surrender at the time he was shot. We are waiting. Wait with us as we wait for the Ferguson grand jury decision.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Ferguson as we await the grand jury announcement is coming down at any moment. And you are
seeing shots just like us, the protesters gathering in number. There you see it. It started off with a few. Now many, many protesters gathering as
they await the grand jury announcement. We know that Michael Brown`s family have not been told what the decision is, but we know the choices.
Murder one, murder two, voluntary, involuntary, or a no bill. That no bill meaning no charges whatsoever against the police officer. With me, Greg
Cason, psychologist. Greg, the desire to protest, what is motivating that?
CASON: Well, the desire to protest is going to come from people who feel disenfranchised and need to express their opinion about what`s going
on in this case, but they`re going to get together and they`re all going to start to think alike and act alike, and that`s where we start to get into a
mob mentality that could be dangerous. So, my concern is it`s good to go out and protest and it`s good to be -- to have your opinion be known, but
you have to be very careful because in a mob situation, in a big group situation, you could start to have something called diffusion of
responsibility where you no longer care about what`s happening in the community around you.
GRACE: With me, Colin Jeffrey, KTRS. Colin, what`s behind the decision to make a nighttime announcement?
JEFFREY: We don`t know exactly what`s behind it. What we do know is it allowed schools time to cancel after-school activities, have parents
pick up children tonight and allow them to make plans for tomorrow. Some of the school districts that are impacted directly by this, the Jennings
school district, for example, touches Ferguson. 90 percent of their students come from families that live in poverty. So last week, they made
the decision to close school on Monday and Tuesday. So they`re allowing parents time.
The other half of it is, we`ve gotten some information leaked to the press about what`s gone on, or evidence that may have been presented so
that could have also been a concern, that if you delay this too long, leaks have already proven to be a potential problem in this case. Do you worry
about the verdict or the choice to indict or not, to leak out in advance of anything the St. Louis County prosecutor has to say.
GRACE: Well, I was just curious as to why, Colin, they`re waiting until nighttime, why they`ve waited this long. Do you have any insight as
to why -- it`s almost 9:00 at night. What are they waiting on?
JEFFREY: Well, we knew or understood previous to this the police were supposed to get advanced notice of this. Up to 48 hours. And having gone
through the weekend here, it doesn`t appear that police may have gotten that time to get their ducks in a row. So, this could be allowing police
some extra time and the National Guard extra time to deploy where they`re needed by delaying it into the night. Outside of that, there are the
conspiracy theorists in St. Louis who say that the colder it is when this is announced, maybe you can diffuse any protests or rioting that way.
GRACE: Hmm. Out to the lines. Linda, New York. Hi, Linda. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. I pray for a fair and a reasonable decision from the grand jury. And my question concerns
the officer -- Officer Wilson`s grand jury testimony. If an indictment comes down, what happens to his testimony? In other words, does it follow
him into trial? Is it used against him? Does it ever become public?
GRACE: I can tell you this much, grand jury testimony by a target is made under oath. All grand jury testimony is under oath. If this goes to
trial, that grand jury testimony will absolutely be resurrected and will be used as trial.
Now, his story, his testimony at trial would likely be the same thing as he told the grand jury. However, if there`s any change whatsoever in
that, he would absolutely be cross examined on inconsistent statements, Linda in New York. Grand jury witnesses are kept secret. If it`s
discovered that their testimony is different at trial, that`s when the grand jury transcript will come into play. Out in Charlotte in Missouri.
Hi, Charlotte, what`s your question? Charlotte, I think I`ve got you. Are you there, dear?
CALLER: Hello?
GRACE: Hi, Charlotte. What`s your question?
CALLER: What I want to ask you, please, Nancy, is you have mentioned a few times what he could be charged with, and I`m just wondering, please,
because he`s a police officer, could he maybe not be charged with the highest criminal charge which is life in prison or something more so?
GRACE: Well, yes. If he -- this is just a charge that we`re looking at. This is not a jury decision. If he`s charged with anything at all,
Charlotte, it would be one of those four choices. Murder, murder in the second, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter. This would then
go to a jury of 12. A jury trial. At that time, they would come up with a verdict not based on the time that he would serve behind bars. Based on
the facts at trial, then a judge would sentence him. Typically when police officers are sentenced to jail, they are sent to a special ward within the
jail, or a special jail that houses police officers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said get the f on the sidewalk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He put his arms up to let them know he was compliant and he was unarmed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His weapon was already drawn when he got out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shot him twice more and he fell to the ground and died.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and awaiting the grand jury decision in Ferguson. Will police Officer Darren Wilson be charged in the shooting death of an
unarmed teen, Michael Brown? This is where it all started. Take a listen to this eyewitness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got out, this man just started chasing after the boy. I`m hearing shots fired. Clearly none of them hit him, but one I
think did graze him as they said in the autopsy report. And at the end, he just turned around after I`m guessing he felt the bullet graze his arm, he
turned around and then was shot multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The autopsy is now showing that he was shot from the front. Not the back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that square with what you saw?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely, because he was running away, so when he turned toward the cop is when he let off the most shots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he was trying to get away from him, why did he continue to shoot at him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I still don`t get that part at all, like, why was he killed trying to get away from officer?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even when he turned around and put his arms in air, he was then overkilled, shot multiple times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did the grand jury hear that testimony? Because I certainly did. We are waiting to hear the grand jury announcement in the shooting
death of unarmed teen, Michael Brown. And we have just gotten from the New York Times that the officer, Darren Wilson, was not told he had to hand
himself in. Joining me is Matthew Horace, law enforcement security expert, FJC Security Services. Matthew, again, thank you for being with us. What
does it mean that he has not been told he`s got to turn himself in?
MATTHEW HORACE, FJC SECURITY SERVICES: Well, obviously it could mean that he either has or hasn`t been told what the results of the grand jury
indictment are or they`re going to wait and deal with that at a later time. The fact that he hasn`t been told to turn himself in just means that no one
has told him that a grand jury has returned a true bill.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Paul Henderson, Robert Schalk, Hugo Rodriguez. All right, Paul Henderson, I understand what you`re telling me
earlier, but what do you make of the New York Times report he has not been told he`s got to turn himself in?
HENDERSON: I think the clearest indication is from the evidence that you were just talking about. The implications of the leaks, themselves,
coming from law enforcement and the prosecution make it clear, at least to me as a legal analyst, that the stack -- that the deck is being stacked,
that they are not going to come back with an indictment. That they are not going to come back asking that charges be filed in this case.
And so that information about the video of the alleged crime -- and keep in mind, I`m just saying it`s alleged only because it hasn`t been
independently reviewed by a prosecutor to make charges, and then the information about the marijuana in his system. Also the conflicting
reports that we`re getting from the autopsy parceled out in a way that is stacked supporting the version of Officer Wilson`s version of events, to me
is the clearest indication that the prosecution is not going to get an indictment, is not going to have the probable cause to charge Officer
Wilson in this case.
And to me, that`s the biggest issue. I think that`s what we need to be focusing on. How have they moved their duty and not taken up the
initiative to make independent charges and present a case like this, even with conflicting evidence, even with conflicting testimony from witnesses
that were there on the scene to present something like that and file charges and allow a regular jury to proceed to this so we could have a
trial and justice for this community.
GRACE: Also with us, Hugo Rodriguez and Robert Schalk. All right, Hugo, weigh in.
RODRIGUEZ: Nancy, as a prosecutor, and I heard you say this before, you wouldn`t charge someone unless you believe that person was guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt. All we`ve been talking about for weeks --
GRACE: Actually, that`s not the standard for a grand jury.
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ: We`re not talking about -- what is the purpose of charging someone if you cannot find them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
GRACE: You just gave incorrect legal analysis. That is not the standard for a grand jury. Robert Schalk. That is for a jury.
RODRIGUEZ: I understand that.
SCHALK: Here`s my issue. I don`t see how you can say the deck has been stacked in Officer Wilson`s favor. This is the fairest presentation
of the facts. If they let every witness who claimed to have seen something, collected forensic evidence, did an autopsy who claimed to be a
witness, testified in that grand jury, they laid it all out, there`s no other fairer way to go into the grand jury than what this prosecutor did.
So I totally disagree with what Paul is saying. This is the way the prosecutor says, this needs to be found out in the fairest way possible,
we`re going to present all our witnesses, and that`s what happened.
GRACE: You are seeing protesters gathering as the announcement looms, the Ferguson grand jury decision announcement. Also, let`s see a shot of
the podium. We are waiting to see the district attorney take to the podium to make his announcement set for any moment. We are waiting along with
you.
There is our chopper shot. What`s happening right now? Streets have been blocked off, as protesters gather. Back to you. I want to go through
what you just said about everything being stacked. Stacked against an indictment, Paul Henderson.
HENDERSON: Yes, and my real concern with that process is of course I understand what the legal standards are. And of course I know, as you do,
that they are different for a grand jury. I`m saying when you look at the big picture, and you look at how the prosecution has proceeded in this
case, given the leaks that have been presented, and the nature of the leaks that have been presented, I have real concerns, and I believe that my
concerns are the same concerns that the community feels in feeling separated from this process. And that has nothing to do with what the
standard is to bring charges in this case. I just have real concerns and I think so does the rest of America.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I want is peace while my son is being laid to rest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The grand jury in the Officer Darren Wilson case has reached a decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One day the whole world will know my name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At this hour, protest crowds gathering as we await the grand jury decision. We are waiting to determine whether Officer Darren Wilson,
who has been on paid administrative leave since he shot Michael Brown dead, according to eyewitness accounts, Brown`s hands were in the air, in
surrender at the time he was shot.
Let`s take a shot of the podium where we expect the announcement to be made at any moment. There you see the officer on an earlier occasion. We
don`t know his whereabouts tonight, but we have learned from the New York Times, who reports that he has not been told to turn himself in.
That`s the podium. Everyone is primed for the announcement. The family of Michael Brown`s lawyer tells us they have not been advised at all
as to what the outcome will be. This is outside the courthouse. This is what`s happening, as people gather demanding justice. What really
happened? What really happened?
According to eyewitness, there was a fight with the officer inside of his SUV as he reaches out and grabs Michael Brown, who had just shoplifted.
Pulls him into the car, a tussle ensues. Brown takes off running, and that`s when shots rang out.
As we watch, could you explain to me, Shawn Parcells, you helped conduct the autopsy of Michael Brown. What about the autopsy would support
that story?
PARCELLS: Again, running away from the officer, the gunshot wound to this part of the arm and the graze wound to this part of the arm could have
come from the back. But at the same time, depending on how you position your arms, they could have come from the front.
What we cannot conclusively say on the autopsy alone is whether Michael Brown was charging at the officer or whether he was standing still.
And I will really reiterate that the gunshot wound to the top of the head, the apex of the head was going from the back to the front but also to the
right. He is a very tall person, taller than Officer Wilson. What that tells us forensically, if you really analyze that, is that Michael Brown
was probably pretty close to or on the ground at the time that that wound occurred, and it can also be further backed up by the fact that we have
abrasions to the right side of the face.
And, we have the video showing him laying face down on the right side of his face, which would be consistent with his head falling towards the
ground and pretty close to or on the ground when that gunshot is received.
GRACE: When you explain it that way, Shawn Parcells, I just do not understand. Robert Schalk, if one of the shots was fired when he is down
on the ground, or near the ground, how can that be self-defense?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I mean I as a former homicide prosecutor, myself, and working with law enforcement throughout
the course of my career, I mean if you ask any police officer, and I am sure Matthew Horse would comment the same. They are taught to shoot until
the threat is diminished. Shoot to kill. And, if that is what was happening that he believes that threat was ongoing, then he is not going to
stop. And, people may not like that answer, but that is the plain and simple of it.
GRACE: Well, you know what? The other thing, Hugo Rodriguez, is this, if the fatal shot had been fired when they were actually fighting, I would
be totally on the cop`s side because you do not fight or assault or attack a police officer, right? That is totally within his rights to fire.
But if this teen is running away, and we see how far away from the police cruiser he was when he was shot, I just do not understand how you
can argue to me with a straight face that, that is self-defense. And, I do not have it out for this cop. I want to take the cop`s side, but it just
does not make sense to m. His story does not sound like self-defense.
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this is the first time in a long time that the target or the police officer has testified before a
Grand Jury. He has given him his rendition, his perceptions, what he was feeling, what he thought was going on and in all likelihood that he thought
that his life was in danger or the danger of someone else.
Normally, that does not happen before a Grand Jury. It is totally one sided. The jury could possibly consider that testimony, considered it
strongly and I think it will have a drastic impact on their decision.
GRACE (voice-over): Everybody, you are seeing a live shot right now of where the announcement is supposed to be taking place right now. That
courtroom is full. You can see that the district attorney has a podium setup to come in and tell us a Grand Jury decision in a case that has been
simmering, boiling over on occasion, since back in August.
These are shots of Michael Brown, 18 years old at the time he was shot. We now believe seven times. Outside, protesters are gathering.
Colin Jeffrey, KTRS what is the holdup?
COLIN JEFFREY, KTRS (VIA PHONE): Well, we are just waiting for the prosecutor to step to the podium. Not quite certain what is taking so
long. We do know that he is scheduled to give about 20 minutes` worth of remarks and then take questions and answers from the assembled media.
So, hopefully, in the next several minutes here, he will step to the podium. I mean, again, we have spoken about it before, 115 days of waiting
to find out if Officer Darren Wilson will face charges in connection to the death of Michael Brown.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Michelle in Missouri. Hi, Michelle. What is your question?
MICHELLE, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I am good.
MICHELLE: I am wondering what the manpower with the police presence, does not that seem as if there will be no charges brought against the
officer?
GRACE: You are saying because there is so many police out, you believe that indicates there is a no bill?
MICHELLE: Exactly.
GRACE: All right. What do you make of that Colin Jeffrey, KTRS?
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): Well, we knew there were going to be a lot of police officers either way, so I do not know that we can read too much into
it saying that the officer presence indicates a no bill. One of the things we have spoken about locally is, you know, there could be some unrest if no
indictment is returned.
But, at the same time, in cities where a professional championship is won, we have seen people overturn cars, loot and riot. So, passions are
very high. And, regardless of which direction the Grand Jury decision makes, there could be a passionate reaction from crowds. So, this is out
of an abundance of caution like the officials say that they have stepped up presence and even activated the national guard to act as security.
GRACE: Well, another response to Michelle is, this plan was put into effect a while back as to what would happen the day the Grand Jury
announcement was made. I do not think that the fact that there are a lot of police out right now indicates one way or the other what the
announcement is going to be. I think they are out because of all of the violence and the unrest that has been associated with this case. Back out
to the lines, Regina. Hi, Regina, what is your question?
REGINA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi. Yes. I was asking the question about if the officer is found not guilty, would he remain on force? And, if
he would -- if he did, I think that his life would be in danger, and the police would take more time trying to protect him than to protect the
citizens.
GRACE: Everybody, the question is, what will happen to the police officer. Colin Jeffrey, KTRS, what is your understanding?
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): Well, there have been reports that he may already be in negotiations to resign from his post. Another important
point to make is this is a small police department. This is a town of just north of 20,000 people. There are not a lot of police officers.
So, what the caller said is not necessarily accurate, but there are not a lot of police officers that would look like him. He is not going to
get lost in a crowd of police officers if he were to return to the force.
So, anecdotally, in St. Louis, I do not think anyone expects him to return to the force in Ferguson and that is really where we are at. Again,
we will have to see depending on what happens here in just a few minutes.
GRACE: Colin, we understand that the officer has been arranging his first interview with the media. Is that true?
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): Well, that is what several network personalities have come out and said, that they have done these sort of
pre-interviews or auditions for the interview. And, you know, just reading this evening, it appears that ABC may be sort of leading that right now,
that they are in place to have that interview.
But from everything that these anchors have said, Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper, both took to Twitter to defend it and say, "This is
standard procedure in high profile cases like this."
GRACE: I do not blame the reporters. Of course, everyone wants to hear his version of what happened. I do not blame them. And, I find that
very, very unusual that he, the police officer, when he is staring down the wrong end of a Grand Jury indictment, is trying to cherry pick which news
caster he wants.
Of course, I do not blame the reporters. Of course, they want to hear his story like everybody else. I want to hear what he says happened that
night and see if I can reconcile it with the evidence. But, I just find it odd on his part that he would be, as he is waiting to find out about the
indictment, that he is more worried about his first big interview. I do not think it looks good.
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): No, and I do not think many people would disagree with you, that it does not sort of pass the sniff test that while
he could potentially be facing a murder charge, you know, if the Grand Jury decides that way, that he is decided this is the best opportunity to start
shopping his interview.
Now, if he were indicted on anything, those interview opportunities go away. He is not able to do those. But, you know, again, it is one of
these things. We are waiting to find out more, because you know, hopefully, we will know what went on in that Grand Jury chamber if no
indictment is returned.
GRACE: Everybody, we have two live shots going right now for you. We are live in Ferguson bringing you the latest. Protesters gathering. The
storm is gathering. And, inside the district attorney still a no-show.
Late to his own press conference. You know, what does that signify? I cannot tell you. But, I can tell you this, everybody outside that court
house wants an answer. Everybody across the country wants an answer one way or the other.
We are live and we are waiting and we are seeing this thing through until we hear the Grand Jury`s decision. Now, if there is an indictment on
murder one -- back to the lawyers, to Paul Henderson, former prosecutor, San
Francisco, will he be able to get bond?
PAUL HENDERSON, FORMER PROSECUTOR, SAN FRANCISCO: Well, you know, the other thing that you have to keep in mind, separate from the bond issue,
there are still other tracks of prosecution that are going on. So, there is an internal investigation going on within the police department.
And, the feds are investigating civil rights violations with him and the department, as well. So, we have to keep that in mind as this is all
playing out. Not to mention the whole civil process, pursuits that have been filed against that whole department out there.
So, he could get bonded, but that would not speak to those other issues that are ongoing at the same time that have nothing to do with this
process eluding to the Grand Jury and this decision that we are all just sitting around waiting for.
GRACE: Hugo Rodriguez, Paul is right about the other pending investigations. Explain what they are in a nutshell?
RODRIGUEZ: It would be a federal civil rights case, federal civil -- violation of his civil rights resulting in death. Now, there are other
civil rights violations for -- lesser violations, but it is not uncommon across this country for police officers, either to be acquitted at trial or
not to be prosecuted, that the federal government will come in and charge them with a violation of civil rights because of their action, i.e,
violating their 8th amendment rights. And, it happens quite often.
GRACE: But if there is a civil rights violation, would he go to jail on that?
RODRUGEZ: It depends. If it was the first degree, it would be life.
GRACE: No, no, I am talking about civil rights violation. A civil rights violation, Hugo.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, a criminal civil rights violation resulting in death, Nancy, is a life imprisonment system within the federal system.
GRACE: And, that is simultaneous. Right now, everyone, with the charges that we are waiting on. There you see the podium setup. We are
waiting for the district attorney to come in. Do we know, Colin Jeffrey, will it be the district attorney or is he sending out a public information
officer?
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): No. It is expected to be district -- prosecuting attorney Bob McCulloch. His spokesman is the one who informed
us of the length of the statement. And, one other item that we should point out is, again, his spokesman, Ed Magee gave us information saying
that any documents for reporters would be available to grab after 9:00.
So, you can read into that what you want. But we are expecting, if there is no indictment returned, we should have access to those complete
records of the Grand Jury in just about an hour.
GRACE: Colin, what do you know about the D.A.? I understand that his father was a lawman that was killed in the line of duty, and that he is
devoted himself to criminal law, basically his whole life.
JEFFREY (ON THE PHONE): Yes. You have got it. It is something in his family. He had planned on becoming a police officer, but had a health
issue that prevented him from doing that. What do we know about his career? He has won re-election routinely.
And, in fact, this past year, just in November, ran unopposed to retain his seat as St. Louis county prosecutor. So, you know, the voters
have said, you do a good job. Now, it is not a job that typically gets a lot of like on it, but in this case, he is a long-tenured district attorney
and pretty well respected inside the field.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
