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Nancy Grace

Ferguson Cop Walks Free

Aired November 25, 2014 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the

street, the teen en route to his grandmother`s.

Bombshell tonight. The city of Ferguson unhinged after the cop who fires at least six shots into the unarmed teen walks free.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No probable cause exists to file any charge against Officer Wilson and returned a no true bill on each of the five

indictments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tear gas is being fired, as you can see, all over the place!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. The small town of Ferguson is unhinged after a grand jury decides to cut a cop loose when he guns down an unarmed teen,

firing at least six shots, pumping them straight into unarmed Michael Brown.

Joining me there in Ferguson, everyone, and taking your calls, let`s go straight out to Colin Jeffery, KTRS. Colin, many court watchers still

stunned by not a single charge, not even involuntary manslaughter. When`s happening in Ferguson at this hour?

COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS (via telephone): Well, right now, we`ve fallen back into the pattern we found ourselves in mid-August, where early this

morning, residents of the community were back out and cleaning up from the previous night`s, you know, demonstrations that got out of hand, to say the

least.

I mean, more than -- right around a dozen buildings were set ablaze. Some of them will be total losses. There were reports of more than 100

shots fired, that coming from the St. Louis County police chief. He was attempting to count the shots, but said there were so many at times. This

was a very, very dangerous night. And today, the community that is not represented by these actions is trying to clean up and go about life as

normal. But that`s very, very...

GRACE: You know, Colin, KTRS with me -- also, Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. You know, I`m concerned and I`ll tell

you why. I`m concerned about this photographic evidence that I got which went before the grand jury. I`d like, Liz, if you could, to show these in

close-up to our viewers. We`ve turned these into stills for you to look at because when I first saw this shot right here, I thought it was a before

shot. It`s not that one. It`s the one looking head on into the camera.

And there`s not a scratch on his face. I didn`t quite understand what I was even looking at. If you could zoom in on that center shot? That`s

the one that`s most concerning to me because there`s nothing there. Now, on his other cheek, we do see a red mark.

OK, Daryl Parks, he`s got a red mark, a red mark. It`s not even a bruise. He`s got a red mark on his face. That`s it. And they can take

out all the rulers they want to, but it`s still boils down to a red mark. It is not even a bruise. Help me.

DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, without question, this seems to be a very bad attempt to make a defense in this case.

However, as you see, there`s nothing there that indicates that this guy really suffered great bodily harm, as he said he had.

And then as you look at the statement that he did, though, he tries to take that point to make you believe that as Michael Brown was allegedly

coming back toward him, that Michael Brown -- he felt so threatened that he had to defend himself, thinking that Michael Brown would hurt him in some

bad way.

Well, we believe several things. Number one, that his behavior was not reasonable given the situation...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold on! Hold on! We`re showing the shots right now that you`re talking about, Daryl Parks. Take a look at

these. There`s not any blood. What is that? Did he lean against the headrest in his car? I`m just -- I`m not seeing the life-threatening

mortal combat that I would believe would happen when you pump six to seven bullets into an unarmed person.

And correct me if I`m wrong, Colin Jeffery, KTRS, the officer told the grand jury he never saw a weapon. There`s nothing to make him believe that

Michael Brown had a gun.

JEFFERY: That`s correct. He didn`t say anything to the grand jury in that regard. He said he felt threatened as a result of the confrontation

in the car, and he said he never shot at Michael Brown`s back. He said he shot only -- he delivered the fatal shots when Michael Brown, he said, was

charging at him. So this is, again, the first full look we are getting at what Officer Wilson told the grand jury.

GRACE: You know, let`s talk about that, what we know was said to the grand jury. Daryl Parks, attorney for Michael Brown`s family, listen, it

is once in a blue moon that I disagree with police. I mean a blue moon. But to me, this is bigger than a badge. Anybody that gets six to seven

bullets pumped into their unarmed body? Yes, I`ve got some questions. I`ve got a lot of questions.

And today, tonight, the day after, it seems like everybody`s more concerned about, Will the cop have a job, keep a job, what`s he going to do

next? All I know is before the grand jury announcement, he was already floating his interview to high-profile news correspondents. I mean, what -

- what`s that?

PARKS: Well, without question, Nancy, even in the process, it seems as if -- as you watch the prosecutors` actions in this case, it seems that

they were more concerned with putting Michael Brown on trial than trying the potential defendant in this case, Officer Wilson. So we have some

serious concerns about...

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

PARKS: Without question...

GRACE: I never noticed them putting him on trial, Michael Brown. What do you mean by that?

PARKS: Well, what happened -- all the actions taken by Michael Brown last night were things that the prosecutor chose to spin and to -- to drill

down on. For example, the incident that happened in the store, the behavior of both Mr. Johnson and Michael as they were walking down the

street, the behavior of Michael as he interacted with the officer, not the focus on the officer`s actions and whether his actions were reasonable

where he took Michael`s life. That should have been the focus. Instead, he made...

GRACE: OK, now hold on.

PARKS: ... the victim the focus in this case.

GRACE: When I look at a scenario like this, I look at everybody`s behavior. And you know, you got to put it on the table. He stole

something from a store. He bullied the store clerk. Store clerk calls 911. And it was all over a box of Swisher Sweets (ph), Pete`s sake, some

cigars that you get at a Quik Trip.

So we know that happened. We know he had pot in his system. All that`s true. All that works against your client. But Daryl, I mean, I go

back to the beginning. This is not a popularity contest. Michael Brown doesn`t have to go home crowned Miss Congeniality. This is about, Is this

self-defense? And whether he stole some cigars or smoked weed, that`s not the issue.

The issue is, when to me, Daryl -- and disagree with me and explain to me if I`m wrong -- the issue is, was the cop in fear for his life when he

started chasing a man, a young man, he knew to be unarmed? He was chasing Brown. How can that be self defense?

PARKS: It can`t be self-defense at all. But think about it. When Michael turns back around, Michael is unarmed. He knows Michael`s unarmed

and then says that Michael starts coming toward him and that`s why he shot him.

Put it like this, Nancy. If we`re going to use the criteria that every big black man, such as myself -- I`m bigger than Michael Brown --

coming at an officer who`s also 6-4 -- if I`m walking toward him, what gives him the right to shoot me if I`m unarmed?

Officers are trained to take down people who are unarmed. And does -- we now know that there were far lesser options available to this officer

that he could have taken, and did not have to take Michael Brown`s life. The problem is that this officer had a lack of appreciation for Michael`s

life, and thus he had made the decision haphazardly.

GRACE: You know, Daryl Parks, I just look at it in such an analytical way as if I`m going to trial with this case.

Colin Jeffery, KTRS, we are reading what we`ve been given from the grand jury. And there were a lot of inconsistencies among the witnesses.

Some said his hands were up. Others say his hands were not up.

I don`t recall anyone saying that he was charging the officer, other than the officer. He had turned back around and was going -- stumbling

forward. That is for sure. But seven bullets? What major inconsistencies did you see, Colin Jeffery, in the grand jury testimony that we have

received?

JEFFERY: Well, from some of the reports that we`ve gotten, or we`ve had a chance to look through here, those who supported a version of offense

that said Michael Brown was trying to surrender -- we`ve had -- we`ve had some -- what the prosecutor -- not the prosecutor, what the medical

examiner said were inconsistencies, possibly, between what those witnesses were saying and what they noted on the medical exams.

It`s -- there`s just -- there`s a lot of conflicting testimony, they spoke to so many people, there were so many different things said. And the

real shame of it is here that we only get one side of events from the people directly involved in this. We hear Officer Wilson`s words, but

we`ll never know what Michael Brown had to say. And that`s -- that`s where so much of the contention and passion on this issue rests. Michael Brown

never got a chance to share his side of events.

GRACE: Well, you know, Daryl Parks and Colin Jeffery, I`ve thought a lot about these inconsistencies between the witnesses` statements that saw

what happened, and this is what I know for a fact. When I prosecuted for over 10 years, a judge would always tell the jury, It is your duty to make

all the witnesses speak the truth, impugning perjury on no one.

Now, whether they were all at different angles and seeing what`s happening -- we know -- think about it. A lot of them thought, witnesses

thought Michael Brown was shot in the back. Remember what the cop said. He was shooting. He was unloading as Michael Brown had his back to the

officer. That doesn`t mean those witnesses are lying. They heard gunshots. They saw Michael Brown`s back turned to the officer. For all

they knew, he was shot in the back.

Brown turns around and comes back toward the officer. Many of them say his hands were up in surrender. Some didn`t notice that. I don`t

think that these witnesses are lying, Colin Jeffery. I think they`re hearing and seeing things at different angles. They`re hearing gunshots.

I mean, I don`t think that that impugns perjury on them. I don`t think they`re necessarily lying, even though there are conflicts in the

testimony.

JEFFERY: Oh, I agree. I don`t believe anyone`s intentionally lying in most of these cases. You know, there could always be the exception.

But it`s important to know what Ferguson was like before August 9th. And this is relatively small town of just over 20,000 that does not have

frequent violent crimes like this. There aren`t gunshots in the street on a nightly basis there, and so that`s something I think we all need to take

into account as we review these conflicting pieces of testimony.

How would you feel if, in the middle of the day, you hear gunshots? You hear an argument maybe, gunshots. You might be a little nervous.

There could be some confusion in what you think you remember.

And it`s also worth reminding ourselves that from the date that Michael Brown was shot until some of these witnesses gave their testimony,

a great amount of time had elapsed, and it`s easy to misremember possibly or forget certain facts. And it`s not blaming anyone. We would all be in

that situation, I think.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were eyewitnesses who backed up Officer Wilson`s story that Michael Brown came at him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn`t even there. I wasn`t even anything in his way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecutors didn`t cross-examine him. He was treated with kid gloves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was also forensic evidence, evidence at the scene, shell casings, blood, that suggested Michael Brown was coming at

Officer Wilson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The small town of Ferguson unhinged after a grand jury lets a cop walk after he admittedly pumped six to seven bullets into an unarmed

teen. Tonight, the Ferguson cop breaks his silence. Here he speaks with George Stephanopoulos. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: I asked him directly, did he shoot towards Michael Brown`s back? He said no. He said Michael Brown reached

into his car, grabbed for his gun, and that`s why he feared for his life. He also said that later when Michael Brown left the car, he actually

charged toward Officer Wilson, did not raise his hands in surrender, and that`s why Officer Wilson said he had to shoot Michael Brown on that day.

Well, he did say he was sorry for the loss of life, the loss of Michael Brown`s life. He said he would not do anything different that day,

that he did what he was trained to do, he was simply doing his job. And I also asked him directly, I pressed him, I said, Would this have gone down

any differently if Michael Brown were white? He said, Absolutely not. He says he has a clean conscience over his actions that day, even though he`s

sorry for the loss of life and understands the grief of Michael Brown`s parents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is video from ABC of George Stephanopoulos in his interview with Darren Wilson, the police officer, the Ferguson cop, as he

is now.

Now, back to Colin Jeffery, KTRS. You know, I appreciate that, that he`s sorry, and I`m sure he is sorry. But this is what I know. I`m

looking at the photos right now of him the night of the shooting. Colin, he`s got a red mark, a red mark. That`s it! And the boy, the unarmed

teen, is dead. That young man, just 18 years old, dead! I`m not saying he`s an angel, but six to seven shots when you`ve got what, a red mark?

JEFFERY: Yes. And that`s -- that`s part of why, now that we`re seeing these images, the community seems to be -- I don`t want to say

becoming more upset, but the passion is not dying down. The thought from some might be that after an initial expression of unrest, that might start

calming itself down, but I think leaders are realizing now this passion is true. It`s lasting.

And it is troubling, we`ve heard from some, to look at those images and think that there was this vicious attack, and there not be much

evidence of that in the aftermath.

That being said, this is different because it`s not a scrape between two people, one of whom has a gun and decides to pull it. This is a police

officer. You can`t hit a police officer, and that is -- that is why the prosecutor`s standing by the decision of the grand jury.

GRACE: OK, well, let me ask you this, Colin Jeffery. Based on the press conference that was held today, what is the cop`s future? That seems

to be the big question on everybody`s mind.

JEFFERY: Well, the mayor of Ferguson came out and said his status with the department is unchanged. He remains on administrative leave.

There have been several reports that he is in talks to possibly resign, but that hasn`t been finalized. And if you talk to anyone in the community,

not just Ferguson but St. Louis at large, they don`t see how Officer Wilson could ever return to that force.

GRACE: Daryl Parks, attorney for the Brown family, weigh in. Everyone seems extremely concerned about the future of this cop. I`m

concerned that you can pump somebody full of lead and not get indicted. That`s my concern. But let`s address whether he`s going to be a cop or

not.

PARKS: Well, without question, I think it would be very difficult for this officer to patrol within the community of Ferguson, given the nature

of what has happened here in this case. I would be very surprised to see him on the streets. Obviously, there`s also the federal investigation

that`s going on that this officer`s a target in, and he will -- you know, certainly has to -- that`s an issue right now, so -- so what he does...

GRACE: You know, another thing that came out, Daryl, in the grand jury testimony, which we`re about to play for you, is that the cop -- the

Ferguson cop says that he shoots Michael Brown to protect the other cops. OK, they weren`t even there yet. That doesn`t make sense to me.

PARKS: But also, too, he was unarmed, Nancy. I mean, he was unarmed. He was, you know -- and whatever threat an unarmed person possesses, he

possesses. Without question in this country, we do not allow officers to shoot unarmed people.

GRACE: Everyone, we`re now going to show you what we have learned the police officer told the grand jury. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "At this point, it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I`m

shooting at him. And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn`t even there. I wasn`t even anything in his way."

"Well, he keeps coming at me after that again. During the pause, I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground. He still keeps coming at

me, gets about eight to ten feet away. At this point, I`m backing up pretty rapidly. I`m back-pedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches

me, he`ll kill me.

"And he had started to lean forward as he got that close, like he was going to just tackle me, just go right through me."

"When I see the glass come up, it comes, a chunk about that big across my right hand, and then I notice I have blood on the back of my hand.

After seeing the blood on my hand, I looked at him, and he was -- this is my car door. He was here, and he kind of stepped back and went like this.

And then after he did that, he looked up at me and had the most intense, aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon.

That`s how angry he looked. He comes back towards me again with his hands up."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer Darren Wilson will not be indicted in the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you rolling, Spike (ph)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wilson testified the teen hit him in excess of 10 times, landing two blows, causing minor bruising, these photos showing a

swollen right cheek, scratches on the back of his neck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Ferguson and taking your calls.

Out to Lisa. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Can I please say I live in Ontario, and the first statement we have here on the news is, unfortunately, not

guilty, the Officer Darren Wilson. My quick statement is, please, when there`s no proof of a weapon for Michael Brown, why would he even attempt

to kill him?

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Areva Martin, Darryl Cohen and Peter Odom. First to you, Peter.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I`m really troubled by all this second guessing not only by you but by Daryl Parks. Now, Daryl`s an

advocate and he`s a fine advocate, but he`s an advocate.

A grand jury is the conscience of the community. Its solemn and sacred duty is to objectively evaluate evidence. Now, this grand jury put

its heart and soul into this case over three months, 70 hours, 60 witnesses. They heard from everybody. Nobody was in a better position to

make a decision about whether this was a justified shooting than the grand jury, and they rendered a decision.

And frankly, all of this whining and stamping of feet and gnashing of teeth shows disrespect for a grand jury that I don`t think is right.

GRACE: You know what? Let me tell you something, Peter Odom.

ODOM: And you`re a former prosecutor, Nancy!

GRACE: No, I`ve heard you out! So you can listen. I dedicated my whole legal career to grand juries, to presenting to grand juries, to

wringing out one verdict after the next that spoke the truth, representing crime victims. And it will be a cold day in H-E-L-L that I relinquish my

right under the Constitution to speak out about what I think is right or wrong!

ODOM: You can certainly...

GRACE: So don`t you be putting any of us on a guilt trip because we have an opinion!

ODOM: You can certainly disagree. But understand...

GRACE: I will now go -- you`ve had your say! And I agree with you about the sanctity of a grand jury, all right? But as you...

ODOM: All right, and you should.

GRACE: ... have said so many times when it suits your purposes, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. I`ve heard that from you so much,

I`m about to shoot my toe!

ODOM: I learned that one from you.

GRACE: And I learned it from Irving Younger and anybody that went to law school heard that quote. So, I`m not totally not impressed but I have

worked with grand juries as have you. So I understand how a grand jury works.

ODOM: And you know that this grand --

GRACE: That being said --

ODOM: And you know that this grand jury was in the best position of anybody to make a decision and it made it. Now you disagree with it,

Nancy.

GRACE: Based on what they were given.

ODOM: They were given everything.

GRACE: And yes. I disagree.

ODOM: And they were given everything.

GRACE: Yes, I disagree. So, I think you and I are at an impasse. Okay.

ODOM: That doesn`t mean they did something wrong.

GRACE: Darryl, I`m sorry. I can`t hear you. There`s something annoying in my ear. Oh, it`s Peter Odom. Okay, go ahead, Darryl.

DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you`re going to find me annoying perhaps even more so.

GRACE: Probably.

COHEN: This grand jury had four, almost four months to go over every single bit of the evidence. They heard from everyone. And you and I both

know over all the years most grand juries spend five or ten minutes, do a true bill and done. Here the district attorney made everything presentable

to this grand jury. They gave them every opportunity to go ahead and true bill or no bill. And these people live in the community. They knew

exactly what would happen to them if it turns out people know who they are. They did what they believed to be the right thing. If we don`t like the

system, it needs to be changed but the people from outside of Ferguson need to get out of Ferguson and need to tell the people in Ferguson you don`t

like it, calm down.

GRACE: Okay, nobody is saying that we don`t like the system, I love the system. I`ve devoted my whole life to the system. And that is why,

Areva Martin, and I`m not saying any of these people on the grand jury are bad people. I`m sure they`re well intentioned people but what I`m saying

Areva is after dedicating my life to the system and to lady justice, it hurts me even more so when I think there is a fail. And I disagree with

this. And a lot of people agree with me that this was the wrong decision. As our right --

AREVA MARTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You are right, Nancy.

GRACE: -- to make our voices heard.

MARTIN: You`re right and we make our voices heard. We are not whining. A young man who was unarmed is killed by a police officer and we

have a district attorney that comes forward and gives the most compelling argument for a defense attorney. He never once expressed any remorse or

had to stand and posture as a district attorney would have when he`s not able to get an indictment so we talk about indicting a ham sandwich. It`s

very clear this prosecuting attorney never wanted to indict this officer and when the decision came back not to indict it`s clear from his

statements and his posture, his demeanor, he could not have been happier that there wasn`t an indictment and we need to speak up against this

because --

GRACE: I want to show you something, Areva Martin.

MARTIN: -- African-American men are killed by police officers and nothing is done about it.

GRACE: And I want Peter Odom and Darryl Cohen to look at your monitors. Liz, can you please show them the shot of the officer looking

head on at the camera? The one I started the show with. That one. All right.

COHEN: The one showing injuries.

ODOM: Nancy, we see it. It doesn`t matter. You are not --

GRACE: I`m still talking, Peter. Okay, cut his mic. I`ll go to you. Darryl, look at this. Do you see an injury?

ODOM: Nancy, I don`t see any injury, but I do know that I was not back where the grand jury was.

GRACE: He shot back 18-year-old teen, for what? Look. Look at this face. Look at this face.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Peaceful protests erupting into chaos after the announcement of no indictment.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Gun fire, rock throwing and looting throughout the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: This cannot happen. Our community`s about to take some responsibility for what happened tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The Ferguson cop breaks his silence as we head into the end of a 24-hour period following a no bill by the grand jury. That indictment,

that fail occurred last night. It was announced last night, anyway.

Joining me right now in Ferguson, Sunny Hostin, CNN analyst. Sunny, what`s happening in Ferguson?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it`s pretty tense, Nancy. I`m about a mile away from what people are calling ground zero and that`s where

you saw yesterday just the fires and the violence and the protests because it did begin somewhat peacefully and we`re not seeing, we`re hearing from

the community. People are very tense, they`re very anxious. One gentleman just came up to me and said that just this morning he was parking his car

and seven police cars were there. One officer, several officers came out with their guns drawn asking him questions, commanding him. And so people

are on edge here. They`re feeling very, very tense. I will say that I`m near the police command center. I haven`t seen a lot of police activity

around. And so, we`re all wondering where, you know, where`s the preparation? We`re hoping that it`s going to be -- there`s going to be

more law enforcement around businesses.

GRACE: Right.

HOSTIN: A lot of business owners are very disappointed that there just weren`t many police officers to be found outside in the community

protecting the property.

GRACE: Right.

Joining me right now, in addition to Sunny Hostin, Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, founder and president of Bondinfo.org. Reverend, thank you for

being with us. And I was stunned when I saw the photo of the cop because there`s not even a bruise. He`s got a red mark, for Pete`s sake.

REV. JESSE LEE PETERSON, BOND ACTION: Well, apparently and according to the grand jury he was hurt. He was attacked by Michael Brown. The one

thing that we need to re-establish is that Michael Brown was a thug. He wasn`t some little innocent kid tiptoeing through the tulips and some

racist white cop decided to go and kill him. Michael Brown robbed a convenience store as we saw on the video and he attacked the worker there

and as a result of doing that he was a felon because he had attacked the worker with full force.

GRACE: Excuse me. Hold on. Hold on. Excuse me, sir. Are you suggesting that a victim`s life is somehow worth less because what this 18-

year-old stole a box of Swisher sweets and smoked a doobie? So, it`s okay to gun him down? Is that what I`m hearing? You started off with he`s a

thug.

PETERSON: What I`m suggesting is that when you go out and attack a police officer, you can expect to be killed. Michael Brown is dead because

of Michael Brown. Not because of the officer but because of Michael Brown. You don`t attack police officers. You follow their instructions. You do

what they ask you to do. Then you go your way. And if they treat you in an unjust manner, you take action. You take it to court. You deal with

it. But you don`t go --

GRACE: I actually agree with you. I agree that if you attack a cop, Reverend, you can expect to get shot and you know what?

PETERSON: That`s right.

GRACE: What`s what happens when you attack a cop. However, in this case, Michael Brown was running away and the cop pursued him. That changes

things in my mind.

PETERSON: Right. Well not really because he tacked the cop in the police car. His blood was in the car. There`s blood on the gun. So

Michael gets up, he runs but according to the witnesses, black witnesses, he turns around and comes back at the cop like a big football player. And

let`s also remember that Michael weighed I believe something like 300 pounds. So you have this 300-pound gorilla coming after you like a big

football player. You`re a little small cop, what do you think going to happen? After you`ve been attacked in your place car?

GRACE: Sir, sir, sir, I just have to interject, Reverend Peterson. I don`t think it`s appropriate to call him a gorilla.

PETERSON: I said like a gorilla. You know, a big guy. I`m not calling him a gorilla.

GRACE: I think that`s right. And you know another thing. True, he stole cigars from a convenience store. True.

PETERSON: And attacked the clerk.

GRACE: Yes, he had -- well, hold on. I`m showing the video. The clerk goes after him, he comes back in and he pushes him. Yes, I know

that. Is that wrong? Yes, it is.

PETERSON: That`s right.

GRACE: But having dealt in the criminal justice system for my entire legal career, I don`t think he deserves the death penalty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. Stunning grand jury testimony has now come out. The Ferguson cop breaking his silence. Let`s take a look at some of the

grand jury testimony we know those grand jurors heard before they reached their decision to no bill this case. With me, Areva Martin, Darryl Cohen,

Peter Odom. To Matthew Horace, senior Vice President of FJC Security Services, weigh in.

MATTHEW W. HORACE, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, FJC SECURITY SERVICES: I don`t know where to start, Nancy. I don`t know if we start on the

alignment of Mr. Brown to acting or looking like a gorilla or if we start on the opinion that the grand jury in this case issued the proper finding

and the assertions of my colleagues that we should just stick with the plan and be happy with it. I can tell you that as a 27-year veteran of law

enforcement and understanding how shooting incidents happen, I have participated and been involved in a shooting incident. I have managed them

as a manager and I have led them at a leader.

GRACE: What do you mean you were in a shooting incident?

HORACE: I mean that I understand what it takes to have to exercise lethal force. Now, with that, we understand exactly what happened here.

We see the facts as they`re given by the grand jury. No police officer comes to work thinking that what I want to do is kill someone today. But

despite that fact, we have a situation here where there was a death fight for a gun. And we understand that. On the other hand, I still understand

that we have to change the dialogue if we want to change the narrative. And the dialogue begins with the issue of race in America, race does

matter. There are a whole segment of society that believe that race matters and we have to begin there and start training and retraining our

communities and our police departments to understand that community policing strategies work and police departments need to be more reflective

of the societies and the jurisdictions in which they`re charged to patrol and to manage and to provide police services to.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at what we have learned that came before this grand jury. Liz, could you please roll some of the officer`s

testimony?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN WILSON, FERGUSON POLICE OFFICER: I tried to hold his right arm and use my left hand to get out to have some type of control and not be

trapped in my car anymore. And when I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan. So the

only other option I thought I had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned. It`s kind of hard to describe it. I turn and I go like this. He is

standing there. I said, get back or I`m going to shoot you. He immediately grabs my gun and says, you are too much of a (bleep) to shoot

me. So, when he stopped I stopped and then he starts to turns around. I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground. He turns and when he

looked at me, he made like a grunting like aggravating sound and he starts, he turns and he`s coming back towards me. His first step is coming towards

me. He kind of does like a stutter step to start running, when he does that, his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his side. His right one

goes under his shirt and his waistband and he starts running at me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: When I hear it like that, Dr. Morrone, medical examiner, pathologist, toxicologist, it puts me in the moment. And I`m trying to

figure out what the cop really perceived at that moment. But I keep going back to the fact that the cop knew, or said he knew, he said he knew. I`m

not projecting this on him. That he did not think that Michael Brown was armed.

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, D.O., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If you look at the forensics, Michael Brown`s blood was in the car. So

there was a shooting in the car. And we did not have evidence to talk about gunshot residue early on. We know now that Michael Brown had gunshot

residue on his hand.

GRACE: Right.

MORRONE: And that`s important. And that shows that there was a struggle for the gun. And that struggle happened in the car. And the

weapon discharged. This is all caught up in the moment and there is a lot of adrenaline. And then we know subsequently that there were at least

three or four other shots that were not fatal. We`ll go back to this. He grazed the hand, then he grazed the arm. And then it exited. Then it came

back and went up here and then there were two shots that at some point, grazed the top of the head with enough force to tip it down and then that

shot went into the collar bone. And the final shot which was the fatal shot after the head started tipping down went into the top. Now, was he

charging forward? Did he slip? Did he fall? Was he running? Those are things, I don`t know if that`s in the grand jury testimony. But those are

possible and we know that a shot exited the head and went into the collar bone and then down into the chest. And that can only happen when the head

starts rotating forward. So there`s a lot that we know from the evidence here. But it is inaccurate and inconclusive to have a complete story

unless we have a full review of grand jury transcripts and what data was presented.

GRACE: Well, stay with me Dr. Morrone. Let`s answer some calls.

MORRONE: Yes.

GRACE: Gina in California. Hi, Gina, what is your question?

GINA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy, I just wondered, would you care if the police officer had been a black police officer? And do you

think if he had been a black police officer, we would have even heard about this shooting?

GRACE: I don`t know. I don`t know. But I think any time an officer, any time anyone shoots an unarmed combatant, and pumps him full of seven

bullets, I think that`s a problem. What about it, Dr. Saunders? Patricia Saunders joining me. Clinical psychologist.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I couldn`t agree with you more. I go for the cops in Britain who don`t even carry guns. This

guy could have used mace, he could have used his baton. There was something he said in the grand jury where he, wear the young man grabbed

his gun. He didn`t take it out of the holster. He pressed it against his right hip. Then Officer Wilson said, if you hit me in the face again, I`m

going to shoot you. Brown walked away at that moment. He turned around. I don`t know what is true. We know there are everybody consistencies in

Wilson`s story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The Ferguson cop breaks his silence. In an interview with George Stephanopoulos. We also obtained his grand jury testimony. We also

obtained these photos of the night of the incident. There are not any bruises. However, Morrone does point out, Dr. William Morrone that there

was a scuffle, and that Michael Brown`s hand was close to the officer`s gun. We know that because there`s gunshot residue. Or particles that are

consistent with gunshot residue on Michael Brown`s wound to his hand.

We are taking your calls, out to Tom. Hi, Tom, what`s your question?

TOM, CALLER: They`re deploying more National Guard down there. What authority are they going to have? I mean, can they arrest people or are

they just there to do behind the scenes or --

GRACE: That`s a good question. Out to you, Peter Odom. Darryl Cohen, Areva Martin, what power does the National Guard have? I assume,

Peter Odom, to quell violence.

ODOM: Yes. The National Guard has, you know, any authority the National Guard would normally have once they`re called out. They would be

given authority to make arrests, to quell any violence. Certainly.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember. American hero. Army Master Sergeant Michael Hiester, 33, Bluffton, Indiana, Bronze Star, Purple

Heart, a firefighter. Parents, Thomas and Kay. Two sisters, widow, Dawn, two children. Michael Hiester, American hero.

Happy birthday tonight to Alabama friend Doris. Who planned to celebrate her 68th birthday to husband Harris today. She is also mother to

our super star, Dee. Happy birthday, Miss Doris. Drew up next. I will see you tomorrow night. Eight o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good

night, friend.

END