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Nancy Grace
Newborn Found in Trash Can
Aired December 17, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Salt Lake City suburbs. Neighbors hear a kitten meowing inside a trash can sitting in
their yard. But when they go to rescue the kitty cat, it`s not a kitten. It`s a newborn baby girl thrown away like trash!
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, we obtain the chilling 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I thought it was a cat!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But what sounded like a cat in distress were the cries of a newborn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got my mother-in-law to come out, and we looked (INAUDIBLE) there`s a baby in the garbage can!
911 OPERATOR: How old does the baby look?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks newborn. I mean, it can`t be more than -- I don`t know! Oh, my gosh!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have mental problems, and I was scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live to the Salt Lake City suburbs.
Neighbors hear a kitten meowing from inside a trash can sitting out in their yard. But when they go to rescue the animal, it is not a kitten at
all. That kitten is actually a newborn baby girl thrown away like trash!
In the last hours, we obtain the chilling 911 call. Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s the address of the emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, there`s a baby in our garbage can! I thought it was a cat. I was outside just a minute ago, and I got my
mother-in-law to come out, and we lifted the trash bags off and there`s a baby in the garbage can!
911 OPERATOR: Is it alive?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is it breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so. It sound like a cat in distress. And I don`t know how to get him out. Neither one of us are tall enough,
and if we tip it, the trash is going to go over on top of him!
911 OPERATOR: OK. Just stay on the phone with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
911 OPERATOR: OK. Just stay on the phone with me. I`m getting some help on the way. Are you with the baby now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m outside. We`re both outside.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can`t reach him!
911 OPERATOR: How old does the baby look?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks newborn. I mean, it can`t be more than -- I don`t know! Oh, my gosh!
911 OPERATOR: OK. We`ve got some help on the way. Just stay on the phone with me, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s got to be newborn. I don`t know. He`s in the trash!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jim Kirkwood, talk show host, KTKK. Jim Kirkwood, the baby wasn`t just in the trash. The baby had been placed
under the trash, and a bunch of trash not only put on top of the baby, but then it all had been compacted and pushed down, the baby left for dead.
For those of you just joining us, neighbors hear what they think is a kitty cat inside their trash can. It`s trash day, and they have rolled
their trash to the front of the yard, like we all do on trash day. They go to rescue the animal, thank goodness. But what they find is not a kitten
at all. It is a newborn baby, umbilical cord still attached, not only put in the trash can but forced down to the bottom of the trash, with trash on
top of it.
Jim Kirkwood, what do we know?
JIM KIRKWOOD, KTKK (via telephone): Well, we know that Alicia Englert put her there, put the baby there. We know that she is claiming mental
disability. And we know that the child is suffering from fetal...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wa-wait, wa-wait! Hold on, Jim Kirkwood! You`re telling me she`s got -- she`s claiming she`s got a mental problem?
Well, I`m showing -- I don`t know if you can see your monitor right now, but she`s partying at a nightclub with booze in her hand, pregnant! She
doesn`t have a mental problem. If anything, she`s hung over. Right there, she`s holding something that`s blue -- look at that, like a sea breeze.
So what did you say, that she`s got a mental problem?
KIRKWOOD: That`s what her defense attorneys have -- done extensive tests and evaluation. That`s what they`re claiming, Nancy.
GRACE: Really? Is that what they`re claiming? Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Andell Brown and Peter Odom. First to you, Peter Odom. What`s
the mental problem? Did you see -- can you see your monitor?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: And she has -- she suffers from fetal alcohol syndrome. So she`s mentally retarded. So once we understand...
GRACE: Put him up!
ODOM: Look, Nancy -- Nancy...
GRACE: Please put him up!
ODOM: So what happened was terrible...
GRACE: Wa-wait! Are you talking about the newborn baby...
ODOM: Nancy...
GRACE: ... suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome?
ODOM: You asked a question...
GRACE: Because there`s Mommy...
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: You asked a question. Do you want me to answer it or not? You asked a question. Do you want me to answer it or not?
GRACE: OK, you know, first of all, you can go ahead and cut his mike. We`ll just start off with that because when you say she`s got fetal alcohol
syndrome -- the mom is drinking in the photos, pregnant.
So Mr. Brown, let me ask you, is the mother claiming she`s got fetal alcohol syndrome, or does the baby that she gave birth to and leaves for
dead, stuffed in the bottom of a trash bin? Who has fetal alcohol syndrome, according to the defense?
ANDELL BROWN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: According to the defense, Alicia has the fetal alcohol syndrome and mental retardation. Here, what we`re
talking about, does she have the mental capacity to form the intent to commit attempted murder? And she does not. Sadly, the prosecution will
not be able to prove this case.
GRACE: OK, back to Peter Odom. Peter Odom...
ODOM: And apparently, Nancy, it`s documented.
GRACE: The fetal alcohol syndrome that you`re referring to -- I`d like you to look again at your monitor. Liz, what I`m asking for are the
photos taken while she`s pregnant, at -- what`s -- Clark, what`s the name of the bar she`s at? Club 44? Club something like that.
ODOM: What, Nancy, do you think -- do you think that that...
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: Do you think that means that she`s a genius or do you think that that somehow precludes a mental defense, because she`s partying? It
doesn`t.
GRACE: I think that it shows...
ODOM: It doesn`t.
GRACE: ... that she has the wherewithal...
ODOM: There`s a documented history -- to party.
GRACE: And so...
ODOM: What kind of intelligence do you have to have to party? She`s mentally retarded.
GRACE: I`m going to just let you get it out of your system. Go ahead.
ODOM: OK.
GRACE: You through?
ODOM: I mean, that`s the response.
GRACE: OK. You`ve asked me multiple questions, and I will now answer them. What do these pictures show? Her defense is claiming that she has a
mental infirmity, that she is somehow deficient with her IQ. Take a look at this. She has the wherewithal to go to a bar, show her ID, get drinks
and party down when she`s about nine months pregnant at this bar.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist joining me. I want to take the questions that Peter and Andell have brought up and get the straight answers from
you. Let`s talk about fetal alcohol syndrome, which is what -- this is a grown lady, a 23-year-old mom, that gives birth, says to police -- when
they say, Why did you do this? Her answer is, I didn`t want the baby. I didn`t want it. That`s her answer, all right?
She holds down jobs. She gives birth. She hides the baby for two days, not feeding it, and finally puts it in the bottom of a trash bin.
Now, explain to me how this woman, who has a job, obviously can work a cell phone with all these selfies, drives a car, has passed the test to do that,
has gone to school -- how can she still be suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome? How is that, Caryn Stark?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, it doesn`t really fit any description of fetal alcohol syndrome that I know of. It fits a
description of someone who`s irresponsible because she knows the difference between right and wrong. She knows how to hide the baby, and she was
capable of hiding the pregnancy, I guess. And certainly, if she holds a job, that means that she is able to think and be -- and her cognition is
OK. So I don`t really understand. Somehow, I feel like the parents are covering up for her.
GRACE: Out to the lines. First to Brenda. Hi, Brenda. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, is anything going to be done to her and the parents?
GRACE: Well, I know this. I know that she gave up -- she didn`t put up any fight at all regarding the rights to the baby. She has no desire to
see the baby at all. OK, that`s not a crime. But what is a crime is attempted murder, Brenda.
Brenda, I`d like to hear your thoughts. You`re interested in the story. What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I think she should be getting it for attempted murder. All those people out there that would like to adopt -- I
mean, she should have had it all taken care of instead of pulling that kind of crap.
GRACE: OK, Brenda, let`s go back to...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I call it irresponsible.
GRACE: You know, I think it`s more than that, Brenda, because irresponsible is when you make a mistake. You act irresponsibly or
negligently. In this case, Jim Kirkwood, this wasn`t negligence or an accident. She had actually gone into a neighbor`s yard in the dark of
night, put the baby underneath trash and put trash on top of the baby.
KIRKWOOD: Yes, not to be discovered. That shows she obviously had a plan thought out and she worked her plan.
GRACE: Let me ask you this. To Dr. Michelle Dupre, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. Let`s talk about fetal alcohol syndrome. Now, let
me get this straight. Let`s see the party pics, Liz. When Peter Odom and Andell Brown, the two lawyers joining us today out of Washington and Miami,
are stating that the mom who tries to kill her baby had fetal alcohol syndrome -- we`re talking about the mother, not the baby, even though
you`re seeing the mom getting totally loaded during pregnancy.
Fetal alcohol syndrome -- low birth weight, small head circumference, failure to thrive, developmental delay, poor coordination, poor
socialization skills. OK, I don`t understand. How can the mom be claiming that`s her illness?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, I don`t think she can. I don`t think that`s a very good defense at all. It
does not match up with any of the signs or symptoms of fetal alcohol syndrome, and she certainly seems like she has the cognition to understand
what she was doing.
GRACE: Guys, I`m just being joined right now -- in addition to lawyers Andell Brown out of Miami and Peter Odom out of Washington, D.C.,
I`m being joined by Zach Weyher, attorney for Alicia Englert. Excuse me, Weyher. Thank you so much for being with us, Zach. Zach, how does the
fetal alcohol syndrome affect your adult client, Alicia Englert?
ZACH WEYHER, ATTORNEY FOR ALICIA ENGLERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, first of all, the fetal alcohol syndrome is one thing that my client
was diagnosed with quite a while ago, and it goes to her physical and mental development. And she is socially and mentally immature. And
pictures of her being able to walk into a bar, show her ID, go nothing to the legal determination of her competency, and you know that. And from the
very beginning...
GRACE: Well, hold on, Zach! Hold on! Hold on, Zach Weyher! First of all, don`t tell me what I know. I know what mental incompetence is
because I`ve tried many, many mental incompetence cases. And that means -- incompetency is very simply you cannot assist your lawyer at trial. So
that really does not bear on guilt or innocence. That bears on whether you can assist your lawyer at trial, correct?
WEYHER: Correct, and whether she can comprehend and appreciate the charges and various other factors. But the court did, when we raised it
and made the allegations of competency, by granting the petition, did, you know, conclude that there was a bona fide doubt as to whether she`s
competent to stand trial.
And that`s the process we`re going through. It`s a legal determination that`s going to be, you know, handled by independent experts
forming evaluations, and that`s what`s we`re waiting upon. But the hours I`ve spent with her...
GRACE: You`re saying that you`re waiting on that. Now, you seem to indicate the judge said she`s mentally incompetent. If you`re waiting on
that, that suggests to me that the judge is allowing an inquiry into it. Is that correct?
WEYHER: And that`s correct, that there`s an issue...
GRACE: OK.
WEYHER: ... as to whether she`s competent or not, not that there`s been a determination.
GRACE: So no judge has determined that she`s incompetent. You`ve raised the defense, and there is an inquiry to be done. That`s what you`re
talking about. No one has said she`s incompetent except for you, her defense lawyers, right?
WEYHER: We`ve raised the issue, and that petition was granted. And under (INAUDIBLE) 77-15-3, that you know, the judge, by those allegations,
doesn`t have to grant the petition. The petition was granted because bona fide data to her competency was raised, and that`s why a competency
evaluation is ongoing.
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t it be reversible error in your jurisdiction, Zach Weyher?
Everyone, Alicia Englert`s lawyer -- very good reputation as a trial lawyer in that jurisdiction -- he`s joining me out of Salt Lake City. Sir,
let`s just not mislead anyone because when a defense attorney raises the specter, the suggestion that their client is mentally incompetent to stand
trial, which simply means they cannot assist their lawyer in a meaningful way at trial -- when you raise that, wouldn`t it be reversible error if the
judge refused for there to be any sort of inquiry into that claim?
WEYHER: Certainly. And I`m not saying that there was a -- there was a weighty (ph) determination made. It was, you know, something that we
stipulated to with the prosecutor, and then, you know, granted...
GRACE: OK.
WEYHER: ... that petition. And going into that is something that, no, the bar is not extremely high. It`s very early in the process. And if
there`s a competency hearing...
GRACE: Exactly.
WEYHER: ... that will be a much more detailed hearing that we go through as far as, you know...
GRACE: With me, everyone, is Andell Brown, a defense attorney out of Miami, Peter Odom, veteran trial lawyer out of D.C. And with us, Zach
Weyher, attorney for this mom, who claims she has a mental deficiency.
Joining me right now is Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, what we`re showing on the screen, what we`re about
to show -- oh, there she is with her hoodie over her face. She obviously knows she`s done something wrong because she`s trying to hide her face, all
right?
Marc Klaas, I don`t know if you can see a monitor from where you are, but here she is, hiding her face, knowing full well that she has done
something horrible. Like Brenda called in, you know how many millions of people would give everything they`ve got to have that baby girl, to have a
child? Give everything, their savings account, mortgage their home, you name it, to have a child to love.
Did you see these photos of her partying, getting drunk, pregnant, and now the defense is that she has fetal alcohol syndrome?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, the defense is doing everything they can to turn this woman into a victim. What nobody
has mentioned is that there`s a safe haven law in the state of Utah. So she could have turned this child over to the authorities, no questions
asked, at any time.
Secondly, they granted her a visitation with the baby to say good-bye to the baby. Just think about that, Nancy!
GRACE: Oh! Oh!
KLAAS: She said good-bye to the baby when she dumped her in the garbage, yet they gave her an opportunity to go and so-called bond with the
child and make it look like she really has some kind of human emotions that are involved in this whole process, when in fact, she looked at that child
as nothing more than a piece of garbage!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a baby in our garbage can!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A small cry coming from this container, a 3-day- old baby laying nearly dead inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s still got an umbilical and a belly button.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m embarrassed (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alicia Englert holding a beer in a picture with a friend dated just nine days before her baby was born.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoever it is covered him up with the trash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, neighbors go out thinking that they`re rescuing a kitten from their dumpster. They put it out for
trash day. It`s no kitten. They find a baby jammed down near the bottom of it, with trash thrown on top, the umbilical cord still attached. When
police asked 23-year-old mom Alicia Marie Englert why, she said, I didn`t want it. I didn`t want it. It is her baby girl.
Joining me right now in addition to Andell Brown and Peter Odom, veteran trial lawyers, Marc Klaas with us from Klaas Kids Foundation, and
the lawyer representing Alicia Englert, Zach Weyher joining us out of Salt Lake City.
Zach, I`d like you to respond to video I am about to show of your client coming out of the home, trying desperately to hide her face and head
so nobody will see her. If she is truly incompetent, as you say, or insane or has mental infirmity, she wouldn`t know, under the old McNaughton test,
right from wrong. But she clearly knows what she did was horrific. She`s trying to hide her face.
How do you respond to that? Your argument is mental infirmity. Well, insanity is you don`t know right from wrong. She clearly knows what she
did was wrong.
WEYHER: Well, Nancy, we`re not arguing mental insanity. That was immediately after it happened. She had been with her parents. Her parents
told her to put her...
GRACE: Oh, she got well?
WEYHER: ... head down and not talk to the media, as I`ve told her to not talk to the media. I mean, given what we`re alleging and her mental
disability, it`s difficult for her to even say no to talking to the media. And that`s why -- I don`t usually do this, and that`s why I`m on the phone
today, because we`re going through the competency evaluation, and we have the media showing pictures and asking co-workers or law enforcement, making
determinations on her competency.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You just brought up a really good point...
WEYHER: ... use that in determining that competency. So...
GRACE: So you`re saying that she was incompetent at the time she tried to kill her newborn, but that she somehow got well and realized what
she did was wrong when she was arrested and was covering her face?
WEYHER: No, we`re saying -- we`re making a determination as to her competency to stand trial and not going to her mental state at the time the
crime was alleged. That hasn`t been raised, or it`s not far enough along in the proceedings to get to that point.
GRACE: Can I ask you -- you mentioned the press were speaking to her co-workers. Which co-workers? Her co-workers where?
WEYHER: Her co-workers at the job that she had working with cars. I`m not going to give that out now.
GRACE: Right.
WEYHER: But that was something that the law enforcement investigation, you know, is speaking to them. And that`s part of the
investigation. But asking, you know, laypeople or even me whether she`s competent or not, that`s being left up to, you know, highly experienced
independent professionals that will make a recommendation, and that legal determination will be made...
GRACE: Well, can I ask you, Zach Weyher, defense lawyer out of Salt Lake City -- competency is also judged very often by a jury. So are you
saying a jury is not able to determine whether somebody is competent or not?
WEYHER: No, I`m not saying that at all. A jury in the right setting, and you know, with time can be properly educated.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: How old does the baby look?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks newborn. I mean, it can`t be more than -- I don`t know! Oh, my gosh!
911 OPERATOR: Is it awake?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s moving. I can`t see that his eyes are open. His head looks a little bruised on one side.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Neighbors go out to save a newborn kitten from their trash when they find out it`s no kitten at all. Way down in the bottom of the
trash, with trash on top and compacted down, is a newborn baby girl. Her 23-year-old mom, Alicia Englert, tells cops when asked, I didn`t want it.
But now her defense is claiming she`s incompetent.
These are photos taken of her getting high as a kite, totally boozed up at about nine months pregnant. This is about nine days, I believe,
before she gives birth.
With me, in addition to our panel of Caryn Stark, Peter Odom and Andell Brown, Dr. Michelle Dupre -- with us is Marc Klaas, Jim Kirkwood and
the lawyer for Alicia Englert, Zach Weyher out of Salt Lake.
Zach, another question. I`m curious about -- police claim that your client, Alicia Englert, also refused to give food, water, any beverage,
anything at all to her baby, and in fact, wrapped it up in a towel and hid it for about two days after birth?
WEYHER: I mean, those are, you know, sensitive facts that haven`t been determined yet, and I`m not going to comment on those today.
GRACE: OK. I understand that. Zach Weyher is defending Alicia Englert at trial.
To Michael Christian, also on the story, what do we know about the child not get any medical care or food or beverage, nothing -- in fact, it
was wrapped, according to police -- now Zach Weyher is likely going to argue something else, but according to police, the child was left totally
unfed and wrapped in a towel for a couple of days after it was born.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s what police say, Nancy. That`s what police say that Alicia Englert told them
when they questioned her. They said that she told them she had the baby around midnight. She wrapped it in a towel and placed it on her bedroom
floor, and then she went to bed. She said the next morning, she went to work, but she left the baby wrapped there in the towel on the bedroom
floor. She didn`t provide for it at all. And when she returned from work that day, she didn`t check on the baby, but she did see the baby`s fingers
moving. It was the following morning about 5:45 in the morning that Englert says she had placed the baby in her neighbor`s garbage can, and then went
to work again.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Peter Odom, I just don`t understand how you can claim that she`s mentally incompetent when she goes to work and
works all day at a job, drives herself with a driver`s license, to work, has the wherewithal to go out every night and party and get totally boozed
up. You`re saying she`s mentally incompetent when it comes to trying to murder her little girl. She works all day knowing the baby is unfed,
uncared for, wrapped in a towel, stuffed under the bed.
ODOM: The mental incompetence goes to two things, Nancy. First of all, and I have to give Zach Weyher credit for how he`s defending this
woman. Even if it is determined that she is competent to stand trial and can assist her lawyer and this case actually goes to trial, then that
mental incompetency, if she actually is mentally retarded, that will likely go as a mitigating factor in her sentencing if she`s ever sentenced for
attempted murder. They have a couple of hurdles to get over before they can prosecute her for attempted murder.
GRACE: Why do you two -- and I`m going to leave Zach Weyher out of this, but why do you two insist that she has a mental ailment when she
drives her own car, obviously has --
ODOM: Because the people that know her best --
GRACE: I asked Andell Brown. I asked Andell Brown. Look. Look. Look at your monitor.
BROWN: It`s pretty obvious people may be competent in one area, they can drive, but may be totally incompetent in another area.
GRACE: What are you talking about? That`s not in the law.
BROWN: Just because a person drives a car that they cannot be incompetent?
GRACE: And works. And works.
BROWN: There are a number of special needs people that have jobs and hold gainful employment, with positions that are tailored to their own
mental level.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Just because she does those things is an insult to other special needs people that are living productive lives, and I think it`s
disingenuous to claim that you can`t do that and be mentally incompetent.
GRACE: No, no, no. Put him up. That is not what I claimed. This woman clearly is not mentally incompetent. She works a regular job, drives
a car --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: You can`t say that. You don`t know that.
GRACE: How can you say the opposite?
ODOM: Nancy, the people that know her best say she`s mentally retarded--
GRACE: That`s not what police say.
ODOM: The people that know her best say it and they say there`s a documented history.
GRACE: Michael Christian, what is the truth of what we know thus far about Alicia Englert?
CHRISTIAN: Well, we know that she works. As you say. We know she has a driver`s license. According to police, she admitted to them that she
provided no care for the baby from the time of birth, and that she knew not providing any care and discarding the child in a garbage can was wrong, but
she says she didn`t want her parents to quote/unquote "freak out" or know that she`d been pregnant.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought it was a cat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But what sounded like a cat in distress were the cries of a newborn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got my mother-in-law to come out here and we lifted the trash bags off and there`s a baby in the garbage can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old does the baby look?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks newborn. I mean, it can`t be more than, I don`t know. Oh my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have mental problems, and I was scared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Zach Weyher, the attorney representing 23-year-old Alicia Englert, now accused of putting her brand new baby at the bottom of this
trash can. This dumpster. Neighbors hear it, think they are saving a cat, only to find a child.
Zach, why should your client or why does your client want a visitation time with the baby she tried to kill?
WEYHER: Well, just so everyone understands, there`s a separate juvenile proceeding determining custody of the child. I do give them
credit for understanding the criminal proceeding was separate. Final good- bye visit is common in these type of termination proceedings.
GRACE: You mean, even when the mom tries to kill the baby, she gets to have visitation with the baby?
WEYHER: Well, and like I said, it was a separate proceeding and they weren`t making determinations. And they determined, and I wasn`t part of
that, nor was Alicia, that it was in the best interest of the child for her to have that visit.
GRACE: I don`t think that it`s common procedure even in your jurisdiction to have visitation with the baby you tried to kill. It may be
common procedure in your jurisdiction to have visitation with a baby before you give it away for adoption, but not when you try to kill the baby. She
said good-bye to her baby in that trash can.
Unleash the lawyers. Andell Brown, Peter Odom, and also with me, Marc Klaas. Marc Klaas, I`d like to hear you weigh in on the fact that these
lawyers are claiming she is too incompetent now to stand trial, but not too incompetent to have a driver`s license, drive alone, work at a job that
requires a lot of skill. Says she didn`t want her parents to freak out and that she didn`t want it. And had the wherewithal to try to hide the baby
and said she knew it would die if she didn`t feed it or take care of it. Where`s the incompetency, Marc Klaas?
KLAAS: Well, I think it goes beyond that. For someone who is so incompetent, she was cunning enough to be able to conceal a pregnancy from
her own family and presumably all of her co-workers for nine months. She was able to conceal the birth from her family, who lived in the very same
house, and then she was able to put this poor little child, poor little baby in a trash can, and then conceal it behind garbage. There`s
subterfuge behind every move this woman makes. And I don`t see where mental incompetency plays into this. It seems this woman is very calculating,
very cunning, and knew exactly what she was doing.
GRACE: Peter Odom?
ODOM: Totally disagree. Nancy, if you or Mr. Klaas -- with all due respect to you, Mr. Klaas -- are saying that developmentally disabled or
mentally retarded people don`t drive cars, that`s wrong.
GRACE: No, we are not saying that.
ODOM: Let me finish. If you are saying they don`t have jobs, that`s wrong. If you are saying that they don`t have driver`s licenses, that`s
wrong.
GRACE: We`re not saying that.
ODOM: Maybe advocates for the mentally ill might take a little issue with that, with both of you.
GRACE: That`s not what we`re saying. We`re saying this lady right here is not mentally incompetent.
ODOM: You are saying -- you seem to be saying, and I think this is a fair interpretation, that all those things she`s doing show she can`t be
developmentally disabled. That`s wrong. That`s objectively wrong.
GRACE: What I am saying is that she knew at the time of this incident that what she was doing was wrong.
ODOM: That doesn`t necessarily --
GRACE: That is what we are talking about.
ODOM: That doesn`t mean that she`s not developmentally disabled. Developmentally disabled people also --
GRACE: (inaudible) she is not mentally incompetent, and you are parsing words.
ODOM: May I finish my answer?
GRACE: You keep saying the same thing over and over.
ODOM: Developmentally disabled people also know right from wrong. And for you to suggest otherwise is objectively incorrect.
GRACE: Peter, if you were trying to throw gas on a fire that doesn`t exist, it`s not working because --
ODOM: I`m trying to give you facts.
GRACE: No one is saying that a developmentally disabled person cannot drive, have a car, nobody is saying that. As a matter of fact, please put
him up. I am saying the exact opposite. I am saying that she is very competent, regardless of what you may claim her deficiencies are. You`ve
got it bassackwards.
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: I hear what you`re saying, Nancy, and I respectfully disagree.
GRACE: To Michael Christian, isn`t it true she told police she knew if she did not feed and care for this baby, it would die?
CHRISTIAN: Yes, I believe that`s true. Nancy, she told police she didn`t know she was pregnant until she delivered the baby. She admitted
she provided no care for it from the time of its birth, and she knew that not providing any care and discarding the child in a garbage can was wrong.
GRACE: All right. So if she knows it`s wrong, let me take our lawyers back to criminal law. First year. When you were a law student, if
you knew right then and there that what you were doing is wrong, then you are not insane. And what you are arguing, Peter, is that because somebody
is developmentally disabled, they are incompetent. You are the one arguing that. I`m arguing the opposite. Ooh, think about that for a moment.
Andell Brown, hold on, I`m going to the lines. Lisa in Iowa. Hi, Lisa.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, how are you.
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: Well, first of all, I have to say something about them two lawyers.
GRACE: Please do.
CALLER: Because where were the parents at when this happened? I mean, they had to have known she was pregnant. When she has a baby on the
floor in her room, when she went to work, nobody goes in her room? I just don`t believe that.
GRACE: OK. So Lisa in Iowa, what do you think about her wanting visitation with the baby she tried to kill?
CALLER: I don`t think she should get it.
GRACE: It`s ridiculous. I would not let her touch that -- bond with the baby. Caryn Stark, bond with the baby? The last time you saw the baby
was when you were trying to push it under a mound of trash? Let`s think this thing through, Caryn Stark. What happens to the trash? It gets taken
to a trash dump and compressed or incinerated. Think about it. And now she`s going to bond with the baby?
STARK: She`s not capable, Nancy, of bonding with the baby. And I want to respond to something they kept talking about, where they said the
people that knew her best are saying she has a mental illness and she doesn`t know that -- you have to excuse her for being special needs. And
where are these people that know her best that could come to her defense, that can tell her to hide her face? Where were they during these nine
months when she was clearly pregnant, and where were they when she left the baby. And your point, which is an excellent point, is that she knows the
difference between right and wrong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what`s the address of the emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, there`s a baby in a garbage can. I thought it was a cat. I went outside, just a minute ago, and I got my mother-in-
law to come out here, and we lifted the trash bags off, and there`s a baby in the garbage can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it alive?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Is it breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so. It sounds like a cat in distress. And I don`t know how to get him out. Neither one of us are tall enough.
And if we tip it, the trash is going to go over on top of him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. Just stay on the phone with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now we learn that the mother, 23-year-old Alicia Marie Englert, who forced her baby girl, her newborn, umbilical still attached,
to the bottom of a dumpster, hoping the trash people would come take it away, compact it and incinerate it, tells police that, I didn`t want it,
that`s why I did it. I didn`t want it. We are taking your calls. Let`s go to Lisa. Hi, Lisa, what`s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. First, can I say, you have so much strength for doing these shows. And then I want to ask and say, please, I think she`s
crazy for trying to kill her child. And also, could she be disturbed in some other way?
GRACE: Well, that`s always a possibility. It`s always a possibility. But the fact that she tells police she knew what she did was wrong, that
she knew by not feeding the baby or giving it water, it would die -- unleash the lawyers. Andell Brown, Peter Brown, also with me, Zach Weyher,
the lawyer for Alicia Englert. Also with me, Marc Klaas, president of KlaasKids foundation. Zach Weyher, if she is found guilty, what do you
think is the appropriate sentence?
WEYHER: If she is ultimately found guilty?
GRACE: Yes.
WEYHER: Well, I mean, with what she`s been charged with, which is basically, if we are going to look at the code for attempted murder, the
statute says 15 years and maybe up to life.
GRACE: Is that what you think the sentence should be?
WEYHER: No, I do not. Actually, we`re in the process where we`ve made the determination to allege incompetency. And I believe it will come
back and the determination will be that she is incompetent. And that`s the case--
GRACE: Let`s go to the lawyers. Andell Brown, Peter Odom. Peter, what do you think is the appropriate sentence?
ODOM: I`ll tell you, Nancy, it could be anything from 15 years to life, or it could be a probated sentence.
GRACE: What do you think is the appropriate sentence? Repeat.
ODOM: Nancy, that`s a complicated question. I`m not smart enough to answer it. But I do know this, her mental incompetence or her mental level
is going to figure into that. A judge is going to make a determination.
GRACE: Let me ask Andell Brown. All three of you make sentencing recommendations to judges every day.
ODOM: When we know the facts. When we know all the facts.
GRACE: Somehow you`re shy. Andell Brown, what do you think is the appropriate sentence, Andell?
ODOM: I`m shy about --
BROWN: I think an appropriate sentence has to take in all the factors, including her mental state and her special needs status. Once
that it`s done, it`s at very least a mitigating factor. And at most, an absolute defense from prosecution.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, appropriate sentence?
KLAAS: Well, I think an appropriate sentence is as long as they can keep this woman in jail. She seems on the one hand to be able -- to be
perfectly competent to live her life, but on the other hand, she is able to conceal a baby and hide it under a pile of garbage in an effort to get rid
of it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got some help on the way. I`m sending the paramedics to help you, and I`ll stay on the line and I`ll tell you exactly
what to do next.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t reach her. I`m not tall enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Can you see if he`s breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is breathing and he is making noises.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there`s still a chord on there. So he`s got to be a newborn. He`s still got an umbilical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Just stay on the phone with me. I`m going to get us through to the Unified police department as well, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it awake?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s moving. I can`t see that his eyes are open. His head looks a little bruised on one side.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t even know if it`s a he, but I`m assuming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, now all the defense attorneys, please listen to this piece of evidence. Liz, could you please put up Alicia Marie Englert`s
meetme.com profile. Hi, I`m Alicia, I`m 23. I work full time, I have got brown hair, I`m 5`11``, I have no kids. I do drink but only on weekends.
I have my own car. I still live with my mom and dad for now. If you want to know more, just ask.
Okay.
ODOM: Somehow, Nancy, you seem to think that that shows that she`s competent? I don`t get it.
GRACE: I think that it shows she has the wherewithal to know right from wrong.
ODOM: I don`t know where you get that.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, to be able to --
ODOM: Where does that come from?
GRACE: Common sense. You can make all the faces you want to, Peter Odom, but guess what? It`s not bothering me. So Marc Klaas, works full
time, has a driver`s license, drives herself to work, has her own cell phone, texts, e-mails, is on dating websites, goes to bars every other
night of the week, gets crazy drunk. Look at these photos. This woman is not incompetent. She is responsible for trying to murder a baby.
KLAAS: I think it`s very telling that when she disposes of the baby, she has the wherewithal to put something on top of it in hopes nobody will
ever see it. If that doesn`t speak to her competence in this act, I think nothing does.
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist. Caryn, help me out. Hi, my name is Alicia, I`m 23. Work full time, brown hair, 5`11`, no kids except
for the one out in the trash dumpster. I do drink, only on weekends. I have my own car. I live with mom and dad. If you want to know more, just
ask. She`s on a dating website.
STARK: And, Nancy, she says, I live with mom and dad for now. So she understands that there`s a possibility that doesn`t sound right.
GRACE: You know what? Caryn, please put her up. We`ve known each other since way back when at Court TV. I am not about hurting this woman.
I am about justice for this child. Somehow babies, children`s lives seem to mean so little in plea deals and in the justice system. And that is
wrong. What happened, this is wrong. And that is my point, Caryn Stark.
STARK: And Nancy, your point is well made, because I want to tell you something, just hearing about the fact that she came home and those little
fingers were moving, it just goes right to your heart, that she could walk past that and ignore it.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Corporal Jonathan Schiller, just 20 years old. Iowa, Bronze Star, Purple Heart,
Combat Action Badge, loved basketball. Parents William and Elizabeth, two brothers. Jonathan Schiller, American hero.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
