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Nancy Grace
Did Princeton Grad Murder Millionaire Dad?; Cops Try To Identify Newborn Left To Die
Aired January 06, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. Did a 30-year-old Princeton grad, born with a silver spoon in his mouth that he never seemed
to spit out, gun down his 70-year-old millionaire dad because Daddy cuts his spending allowance?
Bombshell tonight. Tommy Gilbert, Jr., tonight suspected in the brutal murder of his father, Gilbert, Sr., when the mother, the wife, Shelley
Gilbert, comes home to find her husband lying on the bedroom floor dead, shot in the head, the scene posed to look like a suicide. Then when police
catch up with the trust fund brat, they find him holed up in a $3,000-a- month apartment watching TV coverage. Of what? His own father`s murder?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A bullet to the head...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to the founder of a $200 million hedge fund shot in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The husband was shot by her son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sources are telling us the motive behind the fatal shooting involved the son having his allowance cut off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, South Carolina, a 3-day-old baby found abandoned. Who is this baby, and where are her parents?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live. Did a 30-year-old Princeton graduate, born with a silver spoon in his mouth that he never seemed to spit out, gun down
his 70-year-old millionaire father because Daddy cuts his spending allowance? Whoa! Spending allowance? For a 30-year-old man? Tommy
Gilbert, Jr., tonight suspected in the brutal murder of his father, 70- year-old Gilbert, Sr.
When the mother, his mother and Senior`s wife, Shelley Gilbert, comes home, she finds her husband lying dead on the bedroom floor, shot in the head,
the scene then posed to look like a suicide. When police catch up to the trust fund brat, they find him holed up in a $3,000-a-month apartment
watching TV coverage. Of what, his own father`s murder?
Straight out to Frank Morano, talk show host on "The Answer." Frank, this is so disturbing on so many levels. And I`m telling you, the state is
going to be able to find premeditation here because see this guy? Look at him, a Princeton graduate, Frank Morano. He goes to the Buckley School,
which is about 60 grand a year, some private school, then Deerfield Academy, a private boarding school his father sends him to. Then the daddy
sends him to Princeton University, where it took him -- I think he was on the seven or eight-year plan. He finally got a degree in economics. Then
he didn`t get a job.
After all that, he doesn`t have a job, Frank. And Daddy continues to support him, Frank.
FRANK MORANO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): Good evening, Nancy. Yes, I mean, I wouldn`t get a job, either, if my parents were spending
$3,000 on me each month. And evidently, Nancy, you`re exactly right. The story is as disturbing as it is sad. And they were going to cut -- they
had no problem paying for his $2,400 a month in rent. No problem at all for that.
What they were going to do was reduce his allowances, according to reports and according to law enforcement -- reduce his monthly spending allowance
from $600 to $400. So they were going to reduce it by a measly $200. So he comes to the apartment and asks his mother to go get him a sandwich and
a soda. She comes back 15 minutes later to find...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait! Back it up, Frank. Hold on. Frank Morano joining me, talk show on "The Answer." Frank, our
sources are telling us that he has not been to visit his parents since August. He goes in, kind of sneaks in past the doorman, gets to the
apartment.
And when he gets there, he, like you said, tells his mother -- I mean, this is his mother. He`s in his 30s. The Senior, Gilbert, Sr., is 70. So his
mother has got to be in her 60s. He orders his mother out into the cold to go get him a sandwich? We also learned, Frank...
MORANO: That`s correct. You know, she also...
GRACE: We also learned that he goes into the apartment with a Glock, a Glock semi. Now, who wants a roast beef sandwich while you`re packing
heat? That`s my question.
MORANO: A great question it is. And she offered to make him some food. She was happy that this might be the beginning of an opportunity for her
husband and son to patch things up because, as you mentioned, they were estranged for several months.
But she became suspicious 13 or 14 minutes after leaving the house, comes back only to find her husband murdered, gunshot in the middle of the head,
and his hand placed over the gun, his left hand placed over the gun, as if to imply that it was a suicide. But police don`t believe that was the
case.
GRACE: I`ve got a lot of questions, Frank Morano. Number one, was the father, Thomas Gilbert, Sr., age 70 -- was he left-handed? Because our
reports are that he was right-handed.
MORANO: That`s what I`m seeing, as well, that he was right-handed. But it remains to be seen what the forensics information says. But I don`t think
there is any doubt in my mind that Tommy Gilbert killed his father and then fled the scene.
GRACE: What do you think, Frank? According to police at this hour, what do you think the forensic evidence shows? I mean, how can we link this up
forensically?
MORANO: Well, I mean, for starters, after the police knocked down his door with an axe because he was hiding in his apartment watching television, as
you mentioned -- after they barged into Tommy Gilbert, the younger`s, apartment, they found all sorts of ammunition and empty shell casings,
including ammunition matching the Glock that was found at his father`s dead body. So the circumstantial evidence at this point looks pretty
compelling.
GRACE: OK. With me is Frank Morano, talk show host on "The Answer." Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, renowned defense attorney Alex
Sanchez. Also with me veteran trial lawyer Kirby Clements, both no stranger to a courtroom.
All right, let`s start with you, Sanchez. Give me your best defense. You`ve got this guy going into the apartment. Within 15 minutes, he`s gone
and Daddy is dead on the floor -- hasn`t visited since August. They were in an ongoing argument about money.
The parents paid his about $3,000 a month for his apartment, and they also gave him $600 a week spending money. All they were going to do is cut his
spending money by $200 a week. Really? First of all, why is a 30-year-old getting spending money from his parents?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, Nancy, nobody goes around killing people simply because their allowance is being cut.
GRACE: Really?
SANCHEZ: They kill people because this guy`s got some long-term simmering mental health issues, which you haven`t mentioned. You haven`t
mentioned...
GRACE: Oh, really? What are those mental health issues?
SANCHEZ: No, no. You haven`t mentioned the fact that this guy was seeing a psychiatrist. You haven`t mentioned the fact that this guy was on
medication, that he was a loner, that he was a dysfunctional individual. That`s what leads people to commit this type of crime! Let`s face it.
GRACE: Can I ask you a question?
SANCHEZ: Sure.
GRACE: You just spouted out a lot of information.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRACE: Why was he seeing a psychiatrist? Did he have any history of mental illness at all?
SANCHEZ: People see psychiatrists because they are having some type of emotional difficulties in their life.
GRACE: Uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh!
SANCHEZ: And obviously, he had emotional difficulties leading to this type of egregious crime! What`s the problem in understanding that?
GRACE: Well, the problem is that you`re misleading the viewers, number one. To have an emotional problem does not equal mental defect. Half of
the country wants to see a therapist. They see a counselor, they see a therapist, they see a psychologist, they see a psychiatrist because they`re
working through some issue they have. An emotional issue...
SANCHEZ: Well, obviously, it was more...
GRACE: ... as I was saying...
SANCHEZ: ... substantial.
GRACE: ... before I was so rudely interrupted, an emotional issue that he may have been working through with a psychiatrist is not a mental defect.
Now, according to our sources, he was not on any prescription medication whatsoever for a mental defect. Do you know otherwise?
SANCHEZ: No. What -- the information that I received was that he was on medication, but he had stopped taking medication.
GRACE: What medication?
SANCHEZ: Some type of psychotropic medications to control whatever...
GRACE: What medication?
SANCHEZ: ... particular illness he was suffering from.
GRACE: What medication?
SANCHEZ: That has not been revealed because it`s privileged information...
GRACE: Oh, OK.
SANCHEZ: ... as you well know. So don`t try to put me on the spot!
GRACE: So bottom line, you don`t know what you`re talking about, all right? You don`t know what you`re talking about. You can`t even give me
the med. You`re pulling this out of the air and claiming that that is justification for what he did, when you know, Kirby Clements, that under
the law, being upset or having an emotional issue or feeling like your daddy or your mommy pick on you -- that is not a grounds for a defense.
There has to be a legitimate mental defect, such as schizophrenia. That might work, but not...
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That could be a mental health...
GRACE: ... I don`t -- my daddy picks on me. Why do you think the dad was picking on him, if he was? Because he doesn`t have a job!
CLEMENTS: No, because, quite honestly, the parents are enabling this kid, first of all. Well, not a kid, he`s a grown man...
GRACE: Oh, it`s their fault because they`re paying his rent. OK.
CLEMENTS: But the other fact is...
GRACE: Tell that to a jury.
CLEMENTS: ... it might mitigate it from murder down to manslaughter if his father`s picking on him and emotionally abusing him. But I would go
back...
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Who -- who -- who said, other than this guy tells his ex-girlfriend -- who broke up with him because he`s such a
spoiled brat...
CLEMENTS: Ex-girlfriend, by the way.
GRACE: He said, Daddy picks on me.
CLEMENTS: Ex-girlfriend. How many ex-girlfriends do you know that run to their boyfriend`s defense? That`s the first play (ph) right there.
GRACE: Daddy picks on me!
CLEMENTS: This was a dysfunctional family.
GRACE: He`s on the only one that says that.
CLEMENTS: This is a dysfunctional family.
GRACE: That`s your defense? Is that your defense? I want to understand this.
CLEMENTS: No, no. First of all, my defense -- I couldn`t even begin at this point because, number one, I haven`t ruled Mom out as a suspect
because she stands to inherit all the money, not just him. Number two, we haven`t even ruled out suicide. Left hand, right hand, doesn`t mean
anything. Holding a gun to your head...
GRACE: OK...
CLEMENTS: ... I don`t know where he was shot in the head.
GRACE: What about the fact that back at Junior`s apartment, the son`s apartment, his $3,000-a-month apartment...
CLEMENTS: Right.
GRACE: Back at that apartment -- let me see the two defense lawyers, please. Let me see them. I don`t see them. OK, there they are. What
about the fact -- let`s talk about ruling out Mommy, the I guess 70-year- old mother who goes out to get her son a sandwich in the cold, I might add.
CLEMENTS: Delivery, you know.
GRACE: When -- no. No. He sent her out to go get a sandwich, period. And that is documented. There are security cameras in the lobby that can
show that she left.
Now, back to that issue. What about the fact that when they get to Junior`s apartment, Kirby Clements, they find ammunition, and on it is the
serial number of the Glock that is the murder weapon?
CLEMENTS: That`s fine. The murder weapon and the murderer...
GRACE: It`s his gun.
CLEMENTS: ... are two separate people.
GRACE: It`s his gun.
CLEMENTS: And I`m -- no, it`s his -- I`m going get to that.
GRACE: So let me get it straight...
CLEMENTS: It`s his gun. I still haven`t...
GRACE: He goes to the apartment...
CLEMENTS: ... ruled out Mom yet.
GRACE: ... with the gun, and what, she wrestles it out of his hoodie...
CLEMENTS: No.
GRACE: ... and then shoots the dad and frames the son? Is that the defense?
CLEMENTS: No, no, no. Understand something. I`m simply saying that as far as I know right now, number one, he does have -- he does have mental
health issues. That`s clear. He was off his medication. I can`t name it for you, but he had severe OCD and he couldn`t really hold a job...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait!
CLEMENTS: ... down. That`s there.
GRACE: Hold on! Hold on!
CLEMENTS: Yes?
GRACE: Clinical psychologist Ramani Durvasula with us -- OCD. If I`m correct -- now I`m just a JD, Dr. Ramani, but isn`t that obsessive
compulsive disorder?
RAMANI DURVASULA, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, it is.
GRACE: That is not insanity.
DURVASULA: No.
GRACE: And the reason he doesn`t work is because he doesn`t want to work. He`s got time for yoga. He`s got time for surfing. He`s got time to go to
all sorts of exercise classes. He spends a lot of time fraternizing with his rich friends in the Hamptons. Yes. So why couldn`t he work? If he
can go to yoga and sit in a warrior pose, stand in a warrior pose, why can`t he go to work? What does OCD have to do with this?
DURVASULA: OCD has nothing to do with it, and I can`t ever imagine it being a successful defense for a murder. I mean, obsessive compulsive
disorder involves obsessive thoughts, compulsive behavior. Yes, it`s a tough mental condition, but it`s certainly not going to be associated with
the likelihood of committing murder. If anything, the issue we`re really seeing here is narcissism and anti-social personality. That`s the issue.
GRACE: I`m being joined right now, in addition to Frank Morano on "The Answer," by Michael Zennie, Sr., with the Dailymail.com. Michael, thank
you for being with us.
MICHAEL ZENNIE, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Thank you.
GRACE: One of the defense lawyers, I`m embarrassed to say, has actually suggested that the, I guess, 70-year-old mother may be responsible for this
and that the son has a mental illness. OK, the son is able to go to incessant yoga classes, go surfing all the time and hang out in the
Hamptons. I think his only ailment is he`s a spoiled brat.
ZENNIE: I mean, it`s -- he`s certainly got a history of issues. And his ex-girlfriend actually talked to the fact that he was obsessed with his
father and talked about his father all the time and how he was never good enough for his dad and how his dad was hypercritical of everything he did.
GRACE: Now, hold on. Just because he`s obsessed with his father and the father is critical -- I guess the father is critical, Michael Zennie,
because he`s put this kid through one private school after the next. And I know what they are, the Buckley School, which is about 50 grand a year-ish,
the Deerfield Academy, boarding academy, same price. Then he sends him to Princeton, for Pete`s sake -- Princeton. He gets a four-year degree in
economics. And he still doesn`t get a job. He`s still paying his rent and he`s still giving him pocket money.
I guess the father was fed up with him. Why shouldn`t he be?
ZENNIE: And apparently, this is all over him wanting to cut out his -- cut down his allowance and maybe even wean him off his -- his $2,400-a-month
apartment. The only job prospect that this guy had, it looks like, is this hedge fund, this joke hedge fund he was starting up based out of his own
apartment. And from what we`re -- from what we`re learning, he was -- he was complaining that his dad would not give him money to start the hedge
fund.
GRACE: OK, whoa, whoa, wait! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Kirby Clements, Alex Sanchez, did you hear that, that he`s going around town
complaining his father won`t give him more money to start a hedge fund? I`m sure you two guys, very astute lawyers, understand what a hedge fund
is, where you gather money from various sources and then you invest it as you see fit to make a profit.
You really think his father trusted him, who goes to yoga and surfing classes all day long...
SANCHEZ: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: ... to invest a couple of million dollars? And you`re telling me he`s mentally ill? He`s OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder!
SANCHEZ: You know, Nancy...
GRACE: That`s not insanity!
SANCHEZ: Nancy, you know what troubles me?
GRACE: I`m sure I`ve got an idea.
SANCHEZ: You never seem to believe that anybody could ever suffer from a mental illness resulting in criminal or aberrational behavior.
GRACE: OK, well...
SANCHEZ: Never at all.
GRACE: ... Alex Sanchez...
SANCHEZ: Now, just because -- no, no. Just because...
GRACE: ... all you need to do...
SANCHEZ: ... this guy has money...
GRACE: Cut his mike.
SANCHEZ: ... just because he`s...
GRACE: All you need to do is look at my history as a prosecutor, where I gave treatment to people that were legitimately mentally ill, not just
insane, people that really need treatment. OK, open his mike. Because what this guy...
SANCHEZ: ... privileged individual...
GRACE: What this guy does...
SANCHEZ: ... doesn`t mean he didn`t have mental disorders. Otherwise, all the rich people in this world would be perfectly healthy, and all the poor
people in the world would be suffering from mental disorders. And that`s not right.
GRACE: OK, yes, I don`t even know what you just said. But if you will look at my record, I routinely ordered or tried to get ordered mental
health for people that are emotionally disturbed or mentally disturbed. And what this guy is doing is damning everybody that really does have a
mental disorder, that really does need help, by claiming he has a mental illness.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prominent businessman Thomas Gilbert dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead from a single gunshot wound to the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Allegedly during a violent encounter with his own son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just kaboom. Like, just hit the floor loudly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A flood of investigators...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sources are telling us the motive behind the fatal shooting was because he was cutting his son`s allowance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Cutting his son`s allowance? Could it be true that this spoiled brat trust fund baby now in his 30s, who spends his day at yoga classes and
perfecting his surfing, actually murders his father because he cut his spending allowance? Could that be?
Now, according to police, Thomas Gilbert, Jr., goes into his father`s building, his father and his mother. He goes in hiding a Glock, a Glock
semi, under his hoodie. He goes up to the apartment, immediately sends his mom out, says he wants a sandwich.
Mom goes out in the cold to bring back a sandwich, comes back -- gets a bad feeling, a bad gut feeling, comes back. The father is dead, shot in the
head. Why? According to police, because Daddy wanted to cut his spending from $600 a week to $400 a week. This on top of the $3,000 apartment
Senior was payrolling -- was bankrolling for Junior.
To Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, thank you for being with us. What
can we tell from the forensics alone? What can we tell from the gunshot wound to the head?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The most important thing is when people really want to kill themselves, they leave a
message. They leave a story. The scene explains what`s going on -- and unless there`s something clear to the police that has not been delivered.
The second thing that`s most important is you do not shoot yourself in the head and then place the gun on your chest. The ballistics, the power from
shooting yourself will throw the hand backwards, and the gun won`t be anywhere near the body unless it was wedged in there, like with a pillow
laying down, but not when you`re sitting. And the left hand/right hand thing gives this whole thing away. This is fishy. It stinks. This is not
a suicide. And that`s suicide 101. This is not a suicide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A distraught mother called 911 after finding her husband in a bedroom of their eighth floor apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the husband was shot by her son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops in riot gear chopped down the door of his ground floor apartment and found him hiding inside. He was taken away in
handcuffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did a trust fund baby, now in his 30s, that spends his time surfing and going to yoga class, actually murder his 70-year-old father after
sending Mommy out for a sandwich because Daddy wants to cut his allowance just $200? Could it be true?
Joining me now, telecommunications expert out of Raleigh, Ben Levitan. Ben, what can we learn?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, this guy did more than go to yoga classes. Apparently, he was doing credit card fraud,
as well, Nancy. In his apartment, we find that he had credit card skimmers and blank credit cards.
So this is someone who is stealing credit cards from people. A skimmer is like a little recorder. You know, when you go buy something at the store,
they scan your credit card on a machine and it reads the magnetic strip, and that contains all your security information, your credit card
information. Well, you know, these devices are so cheap, Nancy, you can go out and buy one of these for 30 bucks.
And if you can get hold of someone`s credit card, maybe at a yoga studio or at a bar when they`re not looking, and scan the credit card, you steal all
that information. Then, obviously, what he`s doing is going home and using that information to put onto blank credit cards so that he can go out and
use those credit cards, basically stealing money out of people`s accounts. There is a lot more to this than we`re really hearing, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, unleash the lawyers. Stacey Newman, also on the story. Stacey, isn`t it true that when police get to this spoiled brat`s
apartment, they find 21 illegal credit cards, they find a skimmer, that Ben Levitan was just describing, that this guy is using, and they find out that
he`s sitting there watching news coverage of what, his other own father`s murder? Is he waiting for that to be the banner across the bottom?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: And not only that, there`s reports he had a suitcase of clothes packed in a hallway. Was he trying to run? Did
he know the police were coming? So maybe that`s why he was watching the TV coverage.
But also, Nancy, he had an order of protection against him in the Hamptons, and he`s been arrested for violating that order.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers. Did you hear what Stacey just told us? Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements -- now, I`d like to see their faces. All
right, Alex Sanchez, you`re going on and on, and so were you, Clements -- you`re like second verse, same as the first, no offense. But Sanchez,
you`re talking about all his mental illness. He`s got 21 stolen credit cards and a skimmer. He`s trying to get your ATM information when you go
get cash, all right? So what were you saying about his depression and his mental illness?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, Nancy, whether or not he was engaged in skimming and let`s say he was.
GRACE: Let`s say he was.
SANCHEZ: Why does that have anything to do with whether or not he is suffering from a significant mental illness? The fact that he has this
order of protection against his friends in the Hamptons to me is more evidence that he has some type of deep seated mental health issues going on
in his life.
So I don`t see that the skimming thing, he may be involved in crime too. You can be involved in crime and be a mental health -- suffer from mental
health issues at the same time. I don`t understand what the problem.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And by the way, Nancy --
GRACE: All right, Kirby, I was expecting a little more out of you. I remember before you became a defense lawyer, you prosecuted in the
courtroom down the hall from me.
CLEMENTS: I understand that.
GRACE: I can`t believe you`re buying into Sanchez. He is not your law partner. He is not a judge you`re in front of. Why are you going along
with it?
CLEMENTS: You`re just ignoring --
GRACE: He has a skimmer. He is going to steal your credit card and your mother`s credit card information, Kirby Clements.
CLEMENTS: Skimmer and gun, two different things, Nancy. You got to look at the picture. One you can die from, one you can`t. Now, as it relates
to the mental illness aspect, ask your expert, OCD, one of the things you can have -- you can have OCD thoughts on murder, OCD thoughts of hurting
someone.
GRACE: Wait a minute. OCD thoughts -- I have to line up all my shoes in my closet? That is the thought?
CLEMENTS: You can have more than that with OCD.
GRACE: OK, name one.
CLEMENTS: One of those I just read about it the other day was about OCD thoughts on harming someone. That`s one of the things you have. Your
expert just said OCD thoughts and behavior. Go back to her.
GRACE: Dr. Ramani, please help me.
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
GRACE: These two are trying to scam me right now. Look at this. He is giving the perfect blue steel. Look at that look. It`s like he is doing a
vogue model shoot. That`s blue steel. That`s copyrighted, I`m sure of it. Did you see that? He is like modeling in his mug shot. And how can you be
so mentally unstable that you know how to procure and work a skimmer?
DURVASULA: Listen, yes, I agree, you can have a mental illness, and you can be a criminal. But at the end of the day, what Kirby is bringing up,
the idea that you can have these obsessive thoughts. Keep in mind people with OCD are not going to act on them.
They engage in rituals to make those thoughts go away. Those rituals do not include murder. So that doesn`t fly with me. At the end of the day,
anti-social personality disorder, this guy is dangerous, plain and simple.
GRACE: Well, I tell you this much, Stacey Newman, he is not insane, all right? He goes into court and when they come to him, he refuses to speak
where. Where is Stacey? Bottom line, he has never once had to live by rules.
His parents have put him in one private school after the next, paid his tuition through the nose. If you see him smiling, they put $30,000 into
those teeth alone, I guarantee you, and doesn`t have to work, doesn`t have to abide by any rule.
And when his father finally says I`m cutting your weekly pocket change from $600 to $400, boom, daddy is dead. He never had to live by a rule.
Stacey, you have to get up every morning and go to work, every day. And you never miss. Why?
It`s responsibility. This guy never had any responsibility. And when finally somebody tried to rein him in, they end up dead. Am I missing
something?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, you`re not. People are describing him as a spoiled man child. If you look at what his recent
girlfriends said, he did do yoga, he surfed. He went to gym. He went to social parties. And she said the last time she saw him, which was just in
December, she said he seemed normal, Nancy, and everything was fine.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now we go live, South Carolina. A 2-day-old baby found abandoned. Who is the baby? Where are the parents?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Newborn baby girl found abandoned in a bathroom stall at a county Health Department Office. Police say the infant was clothed
and wrapped in a blanket. Cops are searching for the newborn`s parents and say it`s possible they could be a victim of some other incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Clothed and wrapped. I find that very, very interesting. This newborn baby girl just two days old left to die in a public bathroom stall.
Her life has been saved, but who left her, and why?
Dan O`Donnell with us, anchor with WISN. Dan, what do we know? And especially, what can you tell me about the clothing and what the baby was
wrapped in? That could be vital information to cracking this.
DAN O`DONNELL, ANCHOR, WISN (via telephone): Well, the baby was very tightly wrapped in a blanket, meaning that somebody obviously placed her
there, looking out for her well-being, look out for her comfort, as strange as that sounds.
GRACE: Dan, Dan, Dan, please. Dan, are you a father? Just curious.
O`DONNELL: I do. I am a father. I have three children.
GRACE: OK. Let me try to understand what you`re telling me. You`re saying that the mother or the father leaves the baby on the floor of a
public bathroom to help the baby?
O`DONNELL: Well, it almost seems, and the theory that officers I think are going on is that this was an attempt to get the baby adopted. It should be
pointed out this baby was likely not born in a hospital based on the absence of a heel stick test.
And some other evidence that police are not being very forthright with. But they think that this was, yes, as you say, an abandonment case. But it
appears as though given the fact that the baby was dropped off at a health department that the parent or parents wanted the baby to be in good hands.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest, Chief Eric Hewitt with the Chesterfield Police Department. Chief Hewitt, thank you for being with us.
CHIEF ERIC HEWETT, CHESTERFIELD POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): Thank you.
GRACE: You know, chief, I have raised two children. One I brought home from the hospital at about two pounds. And all this about trying to help
the baby and save the baby, I hear where Dan O`Donnell is coming from, but to leave an infant, a newborn on the floor of a public bathroom, tell me
what you can, Chief Hewitt, about the case. What was the baby wrapped in?
HEWETT: The baby was wrapped in a blanket and placed in the bathroom, just as the reporter stated.
GRACE: What more do we know, Chief?
HEWETT: Pretty much nothing. We`ve reached out to local media, media nationwide, just trying to find out some information on this child, the
mother. As a reporter stated earlier, the child, according to hospital officials, was not born in a medical facility due to no heel stick test and
the umbilical cord not being clamped off.
So, you know, right now we`re treating this as an abandoned child. We don`t know the condition of the mother, the whereabouts of the mother. We
don`t even know if she may be a victim of another crime. That`s why it`s very important for listeners to please, if someone knows something, to let
us know so we can check the whereabouts and the welfare of this child`s mother.
GRACE: With me is Chief Eric Hewett. Chief, I know there is a lot you`re not putting out there about the case, and that there are reasons for that.
You have a concern that this mother, the mother of this baby, this abandoned baby may be a crime victim herself. Can you tell me why you`re
concerned about that?
HEWETT: Well, for no one -- this has been a week ago today and we`ve found nothing out. We know nothing more than we did the day we found this
infant. So that tells me that, you know, either someone is being very tight-lipped or, you know, there is something going on and the mother
can`t, or no one in her family can`t let us know what is going on.
GRACE: Well, Chief Hewett, let me ask you this. Was it in a man or lady`s bathroom?
HEWETT: It was in a women`s restroom.
GRACE: And was it during a time when the facility was open to the public, or would it have to be someone that could have access to the building?
HEWETT: It was during the open time. The last person that I interviewed at the health department, one of the employees, the last time someone was
in the rest room was around 3:30. The child was discovered at the end of the day around 5:00, 5:05 p.m., somewhere around there.
The ladies at the health department were doing a check of the building just to make sure no one was in the building before they closed for day. And
that`s when they discovered the infant.
GRACE: Dr. William Morrone with us, in addition to Chief Eric Hewett and Dan O`Donnell. Dr. Morrone, they keep talking about a heel stick. What is
a heel stick, and how can you tell if an infant was not born in a hospital?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, D.O., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, TOXICOLOGIST: It`s so difficult to get a blood sample from a baby, the
general practice is the heel of the bottom of the foot is stuck. And as it bleeds, it`s collected in tubes. That is much easier than trying to get
any veins.
And the importance is you need a blood sample to begin work to see what the blood type is, are there any antibodies necessary, is there inborn errors
in metabolism, is there disease pending, and to get a sodium and a potassium and see the general welfare of that baby.
So heel-stick tests are very simple. They puncture in the end of the foot and they collect the blood and it gives you the first medical profile of
the child.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Won`t you please help us crack this case. New Year`s eve, a young mother, Carolina Adkins vanishes from her home during the early morning
hours after a New Year`s Eve celebration. Her cellphone and purse left behind.
At this hour, no clues. Her family is extremely distraught. Go to our Facebook and Twitter right now. Share this photo with your friends,
please. Help us spread the word and bring Carolina home.
And P.S., did you know you can now watch Nancy Grace live on your mobile device, your cell phone, your iPad, go to iTunes or Google Play store to
download the HLN To-Go App. Use your name and your username and password from your cable provider. Get the NANCY GRACE live broadcast whenever you
want, wherever you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A South Carolina Department of Health employee was in for a shock when they went to use the rest room at work and discovered a
newborn baby on the floor of a bathroom stall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Dan O`Donnell joining us, anchor with News Talk WISN. Dan, the fact that the baby clearly was not born in a hospital, that really
narrows down our avenues of investigating. A, who is the mother, who is the father? And B, is the mother in danger right now?
O`DONNELL: Well, that`s a very good question and this actually makes it rather difficult to find if she was born in a hospital, there would
obviously be some sort of record. And I think that`s what is contributing to having such a difficult time finding this mother, determining whether or
not she is in danger.
GRACE: You know, Chief Eric Hewett, Chesterfield Police Department, so many people in this country, in this world would pay an arm and a leg to
have a baby like this baby to love, to raise this baby. What is going to happen to the baby, Chief Hewett?
HEWETT: Pretty much the child is in the custody of the Department Of Social Services now. I don`t know what their protocol is as far as
adopting the baby out. But they do have custody of the infant at this time.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Alex Sanchez and Kirby Clements, you know, Sanchez and Clements, if the mom does show back up. Show back up, she can
go to court and get the baby back. You know that, right? She has a leg to stand on.
After she leaves the baby to die, leaves on it a bathroom floor, in a public building that will close in an hour and a half, and serve going to
go home, she could actually get that baby back.
CLEMENTS: Absolutely, Nancy. The thing is this. She doesn`t forfeit her right as a parent permanently because of that mistake. Number one, we
don`t know if it was under duress. Even if it wasn`t, she doesn`t give pup right. She would have to go through parenting classes and the court would
have to evaluate whether she was prepared to be reunited.
GRACE: Do you think she needs a parenting class to teach her, don`t leave your baby in a public bathroom to die?
CLEMENTS: To try to figure out where she was emotionally. Was she suffering from post-partum depression? Where was in her head? Something
to make sure that she`s no longer a threat to that child.
GRACE: You seem to be putting the mother`s interests before the interests of the baby. I mean, I`m all for the mom getting well or getting safe.
But no way, Alex Sanchez, should she be given a second swing at the ball after she`s left the baby to die in a building, a public building about to
close.
SANCHEZ: You know, this looks like a pathetic act by a pathetic parent, probably a young girl.
GRACE: I don`t know about that.
SANCHEZ: Now just looking at the photograph of that child, maybe this can be confirmed by the detectives investigating this case. The child doesn`t
look hurt. I wonder if the child was well hydrated or fed. Apparently, he was in blankets to keep it warm and it was put in a department of health
building in a bathroom design for the purpose of someone finding the baby.
GRACE: This is what I`m saying, Sanchez, I`m not --
SANCHEZ: Whether she can get baby back.
GRACE: I`m not claiming the mother may not be in some kind of distress. I`m just saying, I don`t think she should have the baby back. I don`t
think she should come in and say -- I was depressed.
SANCHEZ: It won`t work like that. It won`t work like. That she`ll have to be evaluated and have parenting classes, and try to address the
underlying --
GRACE: If I hear one of you say parenting class one more time, heads are going to roll. OK? To Dr. William Morrone, explain to me the dangers this
child faced being left on a bathroom floor in a public building. How do I know a child abuser won`t pick the baby up in a public building that is
about to shut down?
MORRONE: Beyond interference and abuse from a stranger, the first danger is exposure. The first thing we all need is protection, something to
protect us from the elements so that we can stay warm. Even if the baby is wrapped, it then needs nutrition and then the cleanliness and hygiene,
changing of clothes, those three things.
They`re in the hierarchy and they`re a mandate in a pyramid. You really need to assess the situation and say how did this come here? We wish the
mother no harm. We hope she is OK. But this child really shouldn`t have been left. This is heart breaking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Newborn baby girl found abandoned in a bathroom stall at a county Health Department Office. Police say the infant was clothed
and wrapped in a blanket. Cops are now searching for the newborn`s parents and it`s possible they could be a victim of some other incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What will become of the baby? At this hour, police trying to identify the two-day old baby girl. What we do know is that she was left
to die on the floor of a public bathroom stall. Tonight, we don`t know who is the mom? Who is the dad? Tip line 843-623-2419.
Dan O`Donnell, WISN, what will become of the baby?
O`DONNELL: Well, it is possible that the child could be placed up for adoption, state health officials said that was a possibility, but as of
right now, that`s still up in the air.
GRACE: Well, OK, why is that up in the air? The baby will go from foster home to foster home to foster home and get connected around in the system?
How long do we have to wait to put the baby up for adoption in a loving home?
O`DONNELL: Well, that`s a very good question. As one of the lawyers said, the mother, if she is found, does still have parental rights so that is
throwing a monkey wrench into the possibility of this child being adopted into a loving home, which I think everyone agrees would be best for her.
GRACE: That is so backwards. How long do you believe, Matt Zarrell, also on the story that we`ve got to wait? How long do we have to give mommy to
show up and decide she wants the baby back before this child can go up for adoption? What will happen to the child now?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, what happens is DSS says they`ll hold a hearing and at the hearing they`ll see if someone
will step forward to claim the child. If no one comes forward, then social service there`s start legal proceedings to have the infant placed for
adoption and Nancy, a judge will terminate the parental rights at that point.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, joining us along with Dan O`Donnell and Chief Eric Hewett, Dr. William Morrone, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements and Dr. Ramani
Durvusala.
Let`s remember American hero, Army Specialist Aaron Preston, 29, Dallas, Texas, Purple Heart, loved fishing, hunting, Texas Hill Country. Parents,
Susie and Dale, adopted Father George, Sister Mariah. Aaron Preston, American hero. Drew is up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp
Eastern. Until then good night.
END
