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Nancy Grace
Georgia Dream Car Couple Vanishes; Pet Ferrets Attack Baby; Woman Doused With Vodka
Aired January 26, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live in the now desperate search for a missing couple. Bud and Jean Runion seemingly vanish off the
face of the earth after they head to meet a mystery Craigslist poster who was selling their dream vintage car. They`ve wanted this car since they
married, since he was in the trenches in Vietnam.
Bombshell tonight. When Bud and June don`t show for a family get-together and their cell goes to voicemail, family fears the worst. Tonight, we comb
through the clues left behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was excited about the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wanted to buy a 1966 Mustang. Someone responded, Bishop (ph) said, and even sent a picture. The couple left their Marietta
home. The daughters became concerned when they didn`t show up to baby-sit their grandchildren nearly 24 hours later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live to Darby (ph) suburbs, where a 1-month-old baby girl loses a quarter of her face after the baby is mauled by the family`s
three pet ferrets in her own parents` dining room. Skyy Isabel (ph) left in her carseat on the dining room floor. The ferrets break free from their
cloth enclosure. What, Mommy and Daddy couldn`t hear her screams?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 1-month-old baby girl is now in intensive care after police say three family ferrets escaped their cage and mauled the infant`s
face, reportedly taking with them her top lip, her nose and leaving only one cheek.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, just before she`s set to testify against her husband, a suburban mom found dead in her home. Police say she was drenched in vodka
and set on fire.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live in the now desperate search for this missing couple. Bud and June Runion seemingly vanish off the face of the earth
after they head to meet a mystery Craigslist poster selling their dream vintage car. They`ve wanted this car since they married. They`ve wanted
this car since he was in the trenches in Vietnam. Bud and Jean don`t show up for a family get-together. Their cell now goes straight to voicemail.
Family fearing the worst tonight.
We are combing through the few clues that are left behind. But I can tell you this. It`s not good, OK? They`ve wanted this car forever. They
finally are in a position, got their children grown up, where they have a little money and they can get their dream car, the "66 Mustang convertible.
They get in the car and they head off to meet the Craigslist seller.
To Ninette Sosa, joining me, newsradio 106.7. Ninette, the search is becoming desperate. It`s like these two just vanish off the face of the
earth. What do we know, Ninette?
NINETTE SOSA, NEWSRADIO 106.7 (via telephone): It appears that they vanished, but authorities up there have made the connection on some cell
phone records, and what that has revealed, that in fact, the couple did make it to McRae Georgia. That was the destination to purchase or at least
look at this `66 vintage car. And that`s where the trail drops off.
By Thursday evening, family doesn`t hear from them, they become concerned. They start a search, put a Facebook posting out for their parents, and that
is one reason why authorities believe this couple may have been lured to see that car.
GRACE: Well, I`m telling you, this is a very lonely stretch of highway from Atlanta to McRae. You go through a couple of fairly big cities, then
after that, it`s nothing but swampland and pine trees. It`s an interstate highway. You have to get off at a certain point. I`m surprised they`re
even getting pings at all.
But Ninette Sosa, they had dreamed about getting this `66 convertible for years, and they finally decide to splurge and go look at it. So it`s my
understanding, Ninette, that they post a "We want this car," and then the Craigslist person, says, OK, I`ve got the car. Is that how it works, or
did he post initially?
SOSA: Bud Runion is the person who posted. He`s a Vietnam veteran, had been his lifelong dream to have a `66 Mustang. And they save the money.
They get it. And he places that ad on Craigslist. He gets a hit from an ad from someone who claims to have this particular car and was willing to
sell it to them if they could meet in Telfair County. That`s about two- and-a-half hours southeast of Atlanta.
The couple leave on Thursday afternoon. Both of them have their cell phones. And authorities know that they make it there, and that`s where the
pings to the cell phone end.
GRACE: You know, I`m looking at these two, and their story reminds me so much of my parents. I can just imagine them going and trying to find this
car, whatever it is that they`re looking for. And you can`t find them. They drop off the map.
Another question. Ninette Sosa, 106.7, did -- was somebody in this scenario using a disposable cell phone? What can you tell me about what
we`re hearing about their pings tonight? Let`s take a look at a map, as well, while Ninette is talking.
SOSA: They did. Authorities did make an analysis of the couple`s cell phone records. So as I`ve said, they made it to McRae, Georgia. Thursday
evening, no word from them. Police have disclosed that the phone number the Runions called traces back to a disposable cell phone in Telfair
County. That phone was then traced to the purchaser -- that purchaser Ronnie J. Towns.
GRACE: OK, straight to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Let`s talk about disposable phones. What is it? How does it work? How can it be
traced?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, a disposable cell phone is no different than any other cell phone. And we
see these all the time. Every time you make a call or receive a call, the cell phone company keeps a record of that call, and it includes the cell
tower that you use to make that call. It doesn`t matter...
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Can`t you just go into a store like a 7-Eleven and buy a disposable cell phone with cash?
LEVITAN: Absolutely, Nancy, and this happens all the time. But whenever you buy a phone, it`s very easy to trace what store it was bought from.
Then it`s very easy to get the surveillance video from that store and determine who bought that phone. And further, if you use that phone,
there`s going to be other calls on that phone. It`s going to be very easy to go through the list of calls that that person with that disposable phone
called, and there you have people who can tell you who that caller was. So it`s very easy to trace someone who buys a disposable phone. It`s not as
anonymous as people think, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, here`s my next question -- everybody, please help us. We`re trying to find this couple, Bud and June Runion. They`re off to buy their
dream car, a `66 Mustang convertible. All we know is that they`ve been dialing this disposable cell phone.
Now, what about this, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert? What if we don`t have surveillance and what if the phone`s only used once? The phone
is not used to dial family or friends or office. Then what do you do to track that disposable?
I mean, these disposables are used by drug dealers and criminals all over the world because you can use them and they`re very difficult to trace if
you don`t leave a trail.
LEVITAN: That`s right, Nancy. But this phone was used at least once, and we know where that phone was used. The -- you know, if that phone was used
in McRea, that`s pretty strong evidence that the suspect was there. If that phone just got called once by the Runions, it`ll give us a location of
where that phone was when the Runions called that phone.
GRACE: OK, hold on.
LEVITAN: So that gives us...
GRACE: Hold on. Wait a minute.
LEVITAN: Yes?
GRACE: Ben? Ben, you`re speaking Greek to me. Let me clarify something in my own mind.
Michael Christian, I`m trying to help find these people. So are you telling me, Michael that they, the Runions, used their cell phone last in
McRea or this disposable phone can be pinged to McRea?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): I believe the phone can be pinged to McRea.
GRACE: Now, you`re talking about the disposable...
CHRISTIAN: Yes, that`s right.
GRACE: ... or the Runions? The disposable, OK.
CHRISTIAN: The disposable.
GRACE: OK. All right. All right. So McRea`s a fairly small town in comparison. So you`re right. You`re right, Ben Levitan.
Everybody, take a look at Bud and June. Look at them. When they don`t show up for a family get-together, a baby-sitting they promised their
children, the children knew something`s horribly, horribly wrong. Now, they`re last seen in a 2003 GMC Envoy. It`s champagne/pewter color, with
the license B-brother W-U-Utah 7349 -- BWU 7349. We`ve got a tip line, 229-868-7833.
OK, Ninette Sosa, 106.7, what can you tell me about the guy answering Bud`s ad for this Mustang? I mean, can he be traced through the computer in some
way?
SOSA: It was. Authorities say Ronnie Adrian J. Towns, 28 years old, of McRae, from that county, has turned himself in. We do know that he was
questioned early on in the investigation and then was let go. It was just a questioning. Law enforcement circled back and issued two warrants for
him. And earlier today, his father took him over to the sheriff`s and had another discussion, and he is now in custody.
GRACE: OK, this is what we know. This guy is being questioned because he apparently answered the ad for the `66 Mustang. But still, we don`t know
where Bud and June are. Won`t you help us? Their family is begging. We`ve got to find them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Earlier today, we located a vehicle submerged in a lake of water. Further investigation revealed the vehicle was the vehicle that
belonged to the Runion family. The vehicle`s been recovered. At a different location not far away, investigators have located two bodies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where are Bud and June Runion? This guy fights in the trenches in Vietnam, all right? He comes home, marries his sweetheart. All his life,
he wants a `66 red Mustang convertible. Finally, they get the kids grown. They`re out on their own. They go, You know what? We`re going to go for
it. They get in their car. They respond to a guy on Craigslist. They both have cell phones. They both have chargers. They`re never seen again.
Last we know, they got a ping in McRea, Georgia. This is near the Okeefenokee (ph) swamplands, "the land of the trembling earth" -- that`s
video from the Georgia Department of Natural Resources.
Between their home, Marietta, and McRea, there are hundreds of miles of nothing but pine trees and swampland. But many people think something more
nefarious is at work here.
Back to Ninette Sosa. Ninette, I want to talk to you about this ping, this ping in McRea, Georgia, and this guy that`s responding to their Craigslist
request for a `66 Mustang convertible. What do we know, Ninette?
SOSA: Well, we do know his name. He goes by Ronnie J. Towns, 28 years old. According to the community, because we did speak to people over
there, and authorities say, basically, good guy, good family, no criminal record. He is unemployed. Those are about the details in a nutshell.
GRACE: OK, to Michael Christian. What do we know is being done in the search for this couple? This search is now turning desperate. It`s like
they fell off the face of the earth. Now, did they -- are they lost somewhere down there? Are they? Has their car gone off the road? They
were driving this GMC Envoy 2003, champagne color, license plate BWU 7349. But there`s no evidence of any kind of a crash or a wreck, no evidence that
they swerved off the road. We know they made it to the city of McRea. Then what happened?
Michael Christian, just because this guy posts this ad or answers their request does not mean he did anything nefarious. What is being done to
find Bud and June?
CHRISTIAN: Well, as you said, Nancy, this is a rugged and wet terrain. Authorities have been looking -- local authorities, state authorities, even
the FBI has been involved. They have used helicopters, they have used boats, they have used all-terrain vehicles, they`ve used dogs, they`ve had
volunteer searchers. They`ve been searching since Friday, but so far, no trace of the Runions.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this, Michael. You said they`ve been using dogs. Where do the dogs -- what`s the starting point? Are they searching
in McRea? I mean, are they searching somewhere else? What do we know about the dog search? And is it a cadaver dog or a scent dog, a
bloodhound?
CHRISTIAN: They have not released that information, Nancy. All we know is that they supposedly have focused the search on a southeastern part of
Telfair County.
GRACE: OK, back to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. What do I need to be able to track their cell phones, Ben Levitan? What conditions will
allow me to find where their cell phones are right now?
LEVITAN: Nancy, the phone has to be on. If the phone is not up and powered on, we can`t find that phone. There`s no way.
GRACE: OK, the phones have to be on. But if they had them in their car, their GMC Envoy, charging them, what does that mean? If they`re being
charged, that`s no good unless they`ve got them on, right?
LEVITAN: That`s right. If the phone is turned on, powered on, and connected to a cell tower, we can tell you -- the cell phone company knows
where that phone is. And using the same technology we use for 911, we could trace that phone within 100 feet. But if the phone is off, there`s
no way to -- there`s no way. All you know is...
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this. Ben, if it`s on and it`s gone under water, what about that?
LEVITAN: Well, obviously, it has to be -- have a clear line of sight to a cell tower. It can`t be behind a wall. And this happens where it`ll be
underneath a body and it won`t be able to connect to a cell tower. Any time where you have, like, a dead zone, the phone is not in contact with
the cell tower. We can`t find it.
GRACE: I mean, it was picked up in Telfair County, so we know -- in McRea. So we know that it was on at that time. But my question to you is, if it
is submerged totally in water, what would that do? If it`s still turned on, can you get a ping?
LEVITAN: You would not get a ping, Nancy. For one, obviously, it would short out. The battery would short out immediately, and the phone would be
off. We hear the children saying they called -- they called the McReas (sic) and calls went directly to voicemail. That`s an indication that the
phone is off. You know when you call someone, sometimes the phone`ll ring for about 20 seconds and then rolls to their voicemail. That generally
means that the phone is on and they have not picked up the phone.
You also have experience where you call someone, it goes directly to voicemail. That means the phone is off, the cell phone company knows it`s
off, so it`s not even -- it just sends you right to voicemail. So what we`re hearing is when the children called, the phone went directly to
voicemail. That indicates the phone is off and not powered on or blocked by -- blocked somewhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now live to Darby suburbs, where a 1-month-old baby girl loses a quarter, 25 percent, of her face after the baby is mauled by the family`s
three pet ferrets in her parents` own dining room. Skyy Isabel he was left in her carseat on the dining room floor as the ferrets break free from
their cloth enclosure. What, Mommy and Daddy couldn`t hear her screams?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pennsylvania police were called after they say three ferrets mauled a 1-month-old baby girl, reportedly chewing off 15 to 20
percent of the girl`s face. The police chief reportedly said there was more food for the ferrets and other animals than there were for the five
children inside the home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh! To Solomon Jones (ph), WURD, morning anchor. Solomon, OK, first of all, leaving a baby in the carseat on the floor -- OK, not good,
but not horrible. But you`ve got ferrets, who are in the weasel family. That`s basically what they are, they`re weasels, and they`re carnivores.
Solomon, they`re carnivores. And they`re what, hiding behind a piece of cloth, and the parents leave the baby and they`re both upstairs doing I
don`t know what?
SOLOMON JONES, WURD (via telephone): Yes, the parents, Burnie Fraim and Jessica Benales -- Burnie Fraim is the father -- he said that he was
upstairs asleep. Jessica Benales said she went upstairs to go to the bathroom. This was about 3:30 PM on Thursday.
GRACE: Wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait!
JONES: And she heard the child scream...
GRACE: Solomon, you`re telling me she just went upstairs to go to the bathroom, and in that, what, 90 seconds, three ferrets break out of their
cloth enclosure, which is not an enclosure at all -- they`re carnivores, they`re weasels -- and they attack the baby girl, who is strapped into a
carseat on the dining room floor?
I mean, Stacey, I feel like I`m missing some of this picture. Something isn`t fitting together with me. How much of this child`s face has been
disfigured?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: At least 25 percent. Most of her nose is gone, Nancy. Her top lip was chewed off. And one side of her
cheek was completely gone. It`s the worst case the police chief`s said he`s seen in 45 years in law enforcement, Nancy.
GRACE: To Dr. Grey Stafford, director of conservation, Wildlife World Zoo, also an animal trainer. OK, Dr. Stafford, I assume you`re going to take
the side of the ferrets, the pets. But you know what? When I had the twins and they were infants, I had my cat that I had for 19 years, that I
loved. I wouldn`t even leave the cat alone, my cat, that I knew, with the children, because, yes, it`s my pet cat, but it`s still an animal.
Isn`t it true that ferrets eat meat, they`re carnivores?
GREY STAFFORD, ANIMAL TRAINER: They are. They are descendants of a wild animal known as a polecat from Europe. And as you said earlier, they`re
cousins to weasels and otters. These are very ferocious little carnivores. They`re very fast animals. Now, ferrets themselves have been domesticated
for thousands of years, but you`re absolutely right. You should never, ever, ever leave your children...
GRACE: They ate a baby`s face off! I don`t know, Grey, what you`re saying about being domesticated for thousands of years! This baby`s nose is gone!
A quarter of her face is gone!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A one-month-old baby girl is now in intensive care after three family ferrets escaped their cage and mauled the infant`s face
reportedly taking with them her top lip, her nose and leaving only one cheek.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is not an attack on the ferrets themselves. That`s not what this is about. This is about parents that leave their children, innocent
and defenseless newborn baby, 1-month-old baby girl strapped in a car seat on the dining room floor.
Daddy`s asleep upstairs. Mommy goes up there and doesn`t come back down. What, they can`t hear the baby screaming? And isn`t it true, Stacy Newman,
that when police got there, they found more food in the home for all the animals?
I forgot how many animals are in the home than there were for the children? There was like a bowl of cranberries and some hotdogs? What was there for
the children, five children, right?
NEWMAN: A jar of peanut butter and a can of cranberries, and Nancy, this house was an actual zoo. Not only did they have the ferrets, they had
dogs, cats and turtles, and by all accounts, they were just running all over this house.
GRACE: You`re taking a look right now at baby, Sky Isabel. This baby had 25 percent of her face chewed off by the family`s pet ferrets. Joining me
is Dr. Paul Nassif, a facial plastic and reconstructive surgeon. Doctor, what can we do for the baby?
DR. PAUL NASSIF, FACIAL PLASTIC AND RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGEON: Well, I`ll tell you one thing, Nancy, this baby is going to have a future of many
surgeries. The first thing the doctors are going to do is do a free flap where they`ll take tissue probably from the forearm and use that to
reconstruct the face.
And then the baby`s going to have a hard time breathing for a while, breathing, eating drinking, will need assistance speaking, this baby has a
tough time ahead of her.
GRACE: You know, I`m worried, Dr. Nassif, could the baby die from this, like -- ferrets are from the weasel family. What type of infections could
go along with this kind of attack?
NASSIF: Well, obviously the first thing we think about is rabies. I`m sure the ferrets are being tested. That`s number one. There`s different
bacteria that come from ferrets, which the doctors will treat the baby with antibiotics. So I would say that the baby should not succumb to this, she
is just going to have a tough time ahead of her.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist, I`m just imagining as an adult, what it would be like in that situation, where
you`re strapped in and these ferrets, the family pets are literally attacking your face. They are carnivores. They have quite a set of teeth.
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Thanks for having me on the show again, Nancy, always a pleasure. This child as the other
physician did mention is going to face a series of reconstructive surgeries with skin grafts taken from different parts of the body to reconstruct the
facial area.
GRACE: And Dr. Nassif, I don`t understand, when you say she`s got so many surgeries ahead of her, why?
NASSIF: Well, just for example the nose. You know, just putting the nose back together from the soft tissue and cartilage that`s been lost. You`re
going to have to fine tune that because to make the nose look normal again, you`re going to need about six or seven surgeries over the next five or six
years, and then into the teenage years.
Now up to her lip, to get that tissue back to normal, it`s going to take multiple surgeries. The mouth can get too small, might have to be
stretched out. We`re talking into the teen years most likely.
GRACE: To Solomon Jones joining me, morning anchor, WURD. Solomon, I am still not able to understand correctly what the mother is saying. I know
the father`s upstairs asleep, but how does the mother explain that in the short window of time, she just runs upstairs to use the bathroom, that the
ferrets, a pack of ferrets get out, run over to the baby and eat 25 percent of the baby`s face and all this happens in what, a minute and a half?
That`s hard to digest, Solomon.
SOLOMON JONES, MORNING ANCHOR, WURD (via telephone): Yes, I think that that is what the police and the prosecutors are also looking at, how this
parent could just go upstairs for just a few minutes and all of this could happen in a few minutes.
I think that`s one of the things the police are looking at. The house has already been described as being in crisis. The police chief said he
doesn`t think they`re capable of caring for those children.
GRACE: Wait a minute, what do you mean, a family in crisis. Are you telling me that Family Services has been to the home before?
SOLOMON: Yes, Delaware County Child and Youth Services, the family had been clients of Delaware County Child and Youth Services prior to
Thursday`s incident. They were already on the radar. The parents have some issues. Some reports say that they have developed mental disabilities
themselves. They are not quite capable of taking care of those children.
GRACE: OK, then if the DFACS knew that, why did they leave five children in the home? There is one jar of peanut butter and a bowl of cranberries
for five children. Stacey, you said that the place was packed with pet food, but nothing for the children?
NEWMAN: Nope. And also, the home was infested with fleas and mice and animal droppings.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Randy Kessler out of Atlanta, and also with me is defense lawyer out of L.A., Areva Martin, and joining us
tonight, clinical psychologist, Dr. Romney Dervassilla.
OK, Kessler, I just need to hear one legitimate not crazy, a legitimate reason that these parents should not be behind bars right now?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because the first focus should be on the children and securing the safety of the children, dealing with the parents
should come second. Let`s make the sure the children are in foster care, somewhere else.
Then we got to see their mental abilities and what caused them to make these horrible mistakes. Don`t focus on the punishment. Focus on the
other kids and the kid that`s in trouble.
GRACE: OK, I`m focusing on putting mommy and daddy behind bars and away from the children. So nobody else can be harmed. And Areva Martin, so the
children can have something to eat?
AREVA MARTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy, these kids need to be safe. We`re hearing about parents who have developmental disabilities, who
failed these children are the department of children services. Why do you have children in a home with parents, who have developmental disabilities
without giving them the help that they need?
These parents needed to be wrapped around with services, they need intervention that department should have been in that home 24/7 making sure
those parents had the parenting skills to parent those kids. So the failure here is the system to protect those children.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Just before she`s set to testify against her husband, a suburban mom found dead in her home. Police say she was drenched in vodka and set
on fire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, cops say a Philadelphia man pours vodka on his estranged wife and sets her on fire, resulting in unthinkable
horror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I`m trying to understand how this happened, but this is what I know. I know that this woman, Maureen Carr had filed an order of
protection against her husband. I know that there was going to be a hearing.
On the day of the hearing, the husband claimed he was having some kind of a seizure, and he couldn`t come to court. So he didn`t go to the hospital.
He just signed papers that he wouldn`t go with an ambulance to the hospital.
So the hearing was sent over for nine days. Within that period of time she burned up. She`s dead in a house fire. Now, according to forensics, this
woman, Maureen Carr, is doused, drenched in vodka, she`s tied up with bungee cords and set on fire.
With me, Dave Max, syndicated talk show host, Dave, what do we know about the forensics because I prosecuted a lot of arson cases? The first thing
you have to show is that there`s a crime. Was the fire an accident? I would claim that because she`s been tied up with bungee cords that`s a no-
brainer, of course, it`s an arson.
DAVE MAX, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST (via telephone): He knocked her out and poured vodka all over her, down her throat, all the way -- all over her
entire body, and traced it all the way out to the front door so he could light a match and leave and the trail of fire would follow the vodka to her
body.
That`s what we know, her hands tied behind her back, not just with bungee cords, but also with floral wiring, so there was no way she could get her
hands loose to have a fighting chance to survive.
GRACE: To Robert Rowe, a fire expert, I want to analyze the forensics found at the scene. Because as you know, Robert, whenever you have an
arson case, it`s got to first be proved to be a crime, all right, much less murder.
So in this case, the fact that she is tied up to me, is a no-brainer. This was intentional. But what do we know about the crime scene itself, for
instance, Robert, was there a trail of accelerant?
ROBERT ROWE, FIRE EXPERT (via telephone): Well, I`m not certain about the trail of accelerant, those are definitely called trailers, where someone
will pour an actual flammable material, accelerant of some type, attempt to remotely set it on fire from an area outside of --
GRACE: How did that work, Robert? When you say a trail, what do you mean by a trail?
ROWE: Well, when a person tries to set a fire, they`ll actually pour the accelerant on the floor from the location of the area of origin all the way
out to the exterior of the house, and try to set the fire that way.
GRACE: Bottom line, Robert Rowe, they won`t be injured? But the trail will go into the home, the trail of accelerant in this case, it`s alleged
to be vodka, will go in and set the home on fire, what`s interesting here, Dave Mack. She was bound, she was tied. What was she tied with?
MACK: Well, he tied her with some floral wire, the type of wire, the one uses the whole floral arrangements, together fairly thick, and also, you
use bungee cords to tie her to a chair, after he had knocked her unconscious, that`s what he did to her, and then set her on fire.
GRACE: OK, unleash the lawyers, Areva Martin and Randy Kessler, and also joining me is Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist. Dr. Gallagher, is
it likely she died from actual burns to her body or from smoke inhalation?
GALLAGHER: Well, there`s one way to check that out, Nancy, that is to do an autopsy. If she did breathe in the soot and the smoke from the fire, it
would be in her lungs and her upper airway. Another thing you can do is check her blood for carbon monoxide levels. Carbon monoxide is an
odorless, colorless gas that is fatal if inhaled in large amounts, and it`s created by fire.
GRACE: What a blaze. We`re showing photos on the fire. In this fire is Maureen Carr. According to police, she was bound with bungee cords and
wire, floral wire and left to die in the blaze.
To make it worse, we believe tonight that she was drenched in vodka, and that the killer left a trail of vodka leading out, so he could light the
trail of vodka and kill her and burn the house down with the evidence in it while he escaped. She`s burned over 95 percent of her body.
So what can you tell me about that first hearing? She filed for an order of protection. What happened with that?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: According to reports, there was a file for the order of protection. They went to court. It was temporarily
issued. It was in place during this incident.
However, when the next hearing came, he apparently, according to reports, had some sort of a seizure episode. An ambulance was called. According to
authorities, refused treatment on the scene and did not go to a hospital.
Nancy, I want to tell you, there was more than one victim in the incident. Two of the family`s dogs also perished. One of the dead dogs found next to
the victim`s body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say the man knocks the woman out, ties her up and then douses her with alcohol. Then allegedly sets her ablaze. Burning her
alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What a horrific death Maureen Carr suffered. She suffered burned to 95 percent of her body. I pray she was knocked out before and was not
conscious when this whole thing happened.
According to police she was found bound with cords and wire, the wire used in floral arrangements, drenched with vodka and a vodka trail leading
outside of the room.
So the fire could be lit as Robert says remotely. To Dr. Romney Devasulla, a clinical psychologist, I`m having a hard time weighing the alternatives.
Would you rather do time in jail as opposed to have a TRO enforced against you? When does anger consume you to the point you are willing to face the
death penalty?
DR. ROMNEY DEVASULLA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: We have seen what relationships do with people and do to people. The fact is, this is a man
who clearly had issues around rage and anger. This was a pattern. When these things happen, they tend not to happen out of nowhere. There is a
pattern building up to this.
We are bad at protecting victims of these situations. This can be the tragic conclusion we`re seeing. They don`t want to go to jail. They would
rather see their partner dead and then go to jail than to manage this and walk away.
GRACE: To Robert Rowe, fire expert, joining us out of Long Beach, you know, Robert, very often it`s difficult to prove an arson case. Why?
ROWE: Well, number one, the evidence. You have to have good solid evidence. You have to have a motive. Then you have to have either a
witness or confession. It`s difficult to try to prove.
It`s a science. I believe that in the articles, the defense attorney was saying it`s a voodoo science, which it`s not. It`s probably one of the
hardest sciences to prove. But there`s evidence. It`s just that you have to search it out and test it.
GRACE: So Robert, you are the fire expert. You are telling me that the defense in the case is claiming that arson investigations and studies based
on voodoo? You know what?
I have prosecuted arsons and specifically when and accelerant like gas or alcohol of some sort is used, it`s apparent many type types times to the
naked eye. You can still see the trail of burnt accelerant. That`s not voodoo. You show a jury those pictures, they will understand it.
ROWE: That`s exactly right, Nancy. It will be proven. I can tell you there are investigators that are very qualified and are experienced and
they will prove their case.
GRACE: It`s not just that, Robert. You get a gas test, I guarantee you, there may very well be, Robert Rowe, leftover residue of vodka on her body,
on her clothing, Robert. How possible is that?
ROWE: I`m sure there`s going to be some form of residue. Alcohol is made with drinks and those drinks are made to burn. This alcohol is highly
flammable. It burns a light blue flame. It`s hard to detect by the eye, but you can detect it through various types of testing.
GRACE: This woman thought she did everything right. She got a protective order. She went to court. She was murdered, according to police, drenched
with vodka. The home set on fire. We want justice.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Marine Lance Corporal Nicholas Palmer, just 19, Colorado, Purple Heart, loved rock climbing, restoring
cars with his father, played the guitar. Parents, Rachel and Brad, brother, Justin, Nicholas Palmer, American hero.
Tonight for you, enter to win our handcuff necklace and bracelet. Go to nancygrace.com. Drew is up next. I will see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp
eastern. Until then, good night friend.
END
