Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
5-Year-Old Shoots Baby Brother to Death; Death by Liposuction
Aired January 27, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live Missouri. I`m sorry, Mommy. I shot Corbin -- a mother recalls the horrible moment her 5-year-
old son tells Mommy he shot his 9-month-old baby brother dead with a loaded revolver the 5-year-old finds in the home as a 9-month-old baby plays in
the playpen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 5-year-old got a .22-caliber Magnum revolver. The gun went off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They determined that the 9-month-old had actually been shot in the head with a .22-caliber Magnum revolver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A terrifying conclusion. Everything changed with one shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, we two go live. A 19-year-old med student and beauty queen dead after getting pressure and giving in to that pressure by
her plastic surgeon doctor. Tonight, death by liposuction?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A beauty queen is dead, allegedly the result of a botched liposuction, a surgery that was part of a beauty pageant prize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, upscale Denver. Daddy allegedly guns downs Mommy after he downs a marijuana cookie and goes berserk, Mommy shot dead in
front of her three children after she desperately pleads with 911 to save her life. And also Denver, a 19-year-old Wyoming college student falls to
his death from a Holiday Inn balcony after downing a marijuana cookie his friend legally purchases at a Colorado pot shot. And Longmont, Colorado, a
2-year-old girl rushed to the ER after she finds and eats a chocolate chip cookie. You know the rest -- that chocolate chip the cookie laced with
pot. And it`s all legal in Colorado.
Boca Raton, a teen driver high on pot mows down a grandfather, as another woman hospitalized in Oregon after she consumes pot Gummy Bears.
And tonight, police on the search for parents that post this. Mommy and Daddy might think it`s funny to force their tot to smoke pot. We call it a
felony.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. I`m sorry, Mommy. I shot Corbin -- a mother recalls the horrible moment her 5-year-old son tells Mommy he shot his 9-
month-old baby brother dead with a loaded revolver the 5-year-old finds there in the home, the 9-month-old baby brother simply playing in the
playpen.
Straight out to Sara Scott with KMBZ. Sara, it`s almost too much for me to take in. You`ve got a 5-year-old child, a very loving 5-year-old
child, no history of any problems, no behavioral problems, no emotional problems, nothing. Some adult leaves a loaded revolver in the home. And
playing with that, the 5-year-old shoots his baby brother dead as the baby just sits in the playpen. What more do we know?
SARA SCOTT, KMBZ (via telephone): Well, we do know that the 5-year- old doesn`t really understand what he`s done right now. He just can`t comprehend that his brother`s dead and that it`s his doing. And this
loaded revolver that was available to this child -- it just -- it seems to be a terrible accident. It was in the bedroom on a shelf that was built
into the headboard of the bed. And the grandfather who it belonged to thought he put it away. He thought it was in the case or locked up...
GRACE: Yes, wa-wait, wa-wait. Hold on. With me is Sara Scott, KMBZ. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Areva Martin, LA, Randy Kessler, Atlanta.
OK, Areva Martin, Sara Scott from KMBZ is reporting the family said, it was all a terrible accident. But think this thing through. It`s just
like claiming an alcoholic driving crash is an accident. OK, was it an accident to put the gun in the -- to put the bullet into the gun, to leave
it in the home?
Last night at 9:30, I`m embarrassed to say, my daughter was jumping up and down on the bed with myself and John David going, Please go to sleep.
Children get on the bed. This gun is loaded on a shelf on the bed. How is that an accident, Areva? That`s not an accident!
AREVA MARTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think you`re not recounting the facts accurately, Nancy. What we know about the story is the
grandfather said that this gun was in a loaded case. We`re talking about a state where it`s legal for adults to have loaded guns as long as they are
safely put away.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa...
MARTIN: This case has been reviewed by a panel of experts...
GRACE: Wait right there!
MARTIN: ... and they decided that there isn`t any criminal negligence...
GRACE: Right there! Right...
MARTIN: ... and that the grandfather did have the gun locked away.
GRACE: OK, obviously -- Matthew W. Horace is joining us, former ATF. Matthew, the kicker with what Areva Martin just said, is safely put away.
This wasn`t safe. It`s obviously not safe. The baby is dead, Matthew.
MATTHEW W. HORACE, FMR. ATF AGENT: Well, again, I think the rationale of what`s legal and what`s common sense is two different things here. Now,
if the information is that the gun was locked away, that`s inaccurate because a baby is dead. And whether any adult should leave a gun
unattended in the same space as a child is unconscionable in my mind. This is not the first time this has happened, and it won`t be the last until we
hold people accountable to be responsible gun owners.
GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, there`s more to this story than we know, all right?
For those of you just joining us, this 5-year-old boy never had emotional or mental problems at all, nothing like that, has to go to his
mom and say, Mommy, I shot Corbin. Corbin is his 9-month-old baby brother who`s simply sitting in the playpen. And according to family members, it
was just an accident. But I say no. When you leave a loaded weapon in the home, that is no accident.
What do we know, Matt?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, we know that the mother was doing laundry and washing dishes. She had just put the
baby down for a nap, turned on cartoons for the older kids and was actually headed for the dishwasher when she heard a strange pop coming from the
bedroom. And the mom says that`s when the 5-year-old ran in and told her, I`m sorry, Mom. I shot Corbin.
GRACE: You know, the thing I don`t understand -- Sara Scott is joining me from KMBZ. I don`t -- are you telling me the gun was locked
safely away in a gun cabinet?
SCOTT: No, I`m not telling you that. The sheriff says it was sitting on the shelf. The grandfather has said he saw it. It was locked away.
GRACE: OK, so it`s sitting on a shelf. Sara, what do we know about whether the grandfather thought it was loaded or not?
SCOTT: (INAUDIBLE) actually I can`t speak to that. I haven`t heard him comment on whether he thought it was loaded or not. He has just
(INAUDIBLE) that he thought -- he thought it was safely put away.
GRACE: OK, to me, Areva Martin and Randy Kessler, that`s like leaving your child alone in a room with a wild tiger. You know, you leave your
kids in the room in the home with a loaded weapon and then you`re surprised when one of them uses it, Randy Kessler?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. So you might have civil liability. But does it rise to a crime? I mean, there are different
burdens there -- forseeability -- yes, he may have made a mistake that should find him responsible, paying damages...
GRACE: That`s negligence!
KESSLER: That`s negligence. That`s right.
GRACE: That is criminal negligence.
KESSLER: Does it rise to criminal negligence?
GRACE: Criminal negligence.
KESSLER: Does it rise to that level, or does it just rise to the -- maybe he had an excuse. Maybe he made a bad, bad, bad mistake. And he`s
going to pay. He`s already paying emotionally...
GRACE: Bad, bad -- you can say that about any crime.
KESSLER: That`s right.
GRACE: Yes, I know he`s paying emotionally. I understand that. But what I`m saying is, this type of behavior needs to be prosecuted, or else,
as Matthew Horace said, it`s going to happen and happen and happen.
KESSLER: Prosecuting...
MARTIN: Nancy...
KESSLER: Prosecuting him is going to make somebody else not do it?
GRACE: Maybe. I don`t know. But I know not prosecuting is certainly not going help anything. Matthew, explain to me why you said it`s going to
happen again.
HORACE: Well, because it`s happened a number of times throughout our history. We`ve seen it happen this year a numbers of times throughout the
country. And like you said, Nancy, this is not a surprise. Why is it a surprise that if you leave a gun in earshot or touch shot of an infant,
that a mistake like this happens? There shouldn`t be shocking and it shouldn`t be surprised.
If you leave a gun on a couch and a 5-year-old gets it and pulls the trigger, something they can see in cartoons and television shows and video
games -- they`re not trying to do anything wrong. They`re just recreating what they see in mainstream media.
Why is it a shock when this happens, when we know any responsible adult who leaves a gun in the eyesight or touch sight of a 5-year-old child
should be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law? It defines (sic) reason. It defines (sic) common sense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We go live, a 19-year-old medical student and beauty queen dead after giving in to her plastic surgeon doctor. Tonight, death by
lipo?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 19-year-old beauty queen wins a free liposuction after taking the crown in a beauty contest. But shortly after she gets on
the operating table, she`s dead. The surgery was one of several prizes that included a brand-new car and a tablet computer. An investigation has
now been launched into her death!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This girl is a -- was a medical student with her whole life before her. With me from Dailymail.com, senior news editor Candace Trunzo.
Candace, what happened? What does it mean that she gave in to pressure from her doctor?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): You know, it`s really strange, Nancy, because the plastic surgery wasn`t really part of the
prize. She won the speedy (ph) contest. She won a car. She won a tablet computer. But one of the -- one of the judges decided that he could make
some hay out of her winning and encouraged her -- more than encouraged her, really kind of made it essential for her to get this plastic surgery, to
get this liposuction.
GRACE: Isn`t it true, Candace...
TRUNZO: She really didn`t want it. She didn`t think she needed it.
GRACE: Candace, is it -- everybody, you`re seeing video from YouTube. Is it true, Candace, that this plastic surgeon was also a judge in the
beauty contest?
TRUNZO: Yes. The plastic surgeon who offered her the surgery, who pressured her into having the surgery, was a judge for the beauty contest.
And he felt that he would be able to use the images of her as publicity shots for his practice.
GRACE: Oh! Everyone...
TRUNZO: And so he...
GRACE: ... we are showing you shots right now of Katherine Cando, who died of cerebral edema. That`s accumulation of fluid on the brain. That`s
according to her family attorney. That`s video from YouTube.
To Dr. Paul Nassif, facial plastic and reconstructive surgeon. Doctor, thank you so much for being with us. I don`t understand what
doctor in his right mind would encourage that beautiful medical student -- literally, she had it all, brains and beauty -- to have lipo and why she
died.
DR. PAUL NASSIF, FACIAL PLASTIC AND RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGEON: Yes, Nancy, I mean, that`s -- first of all, that`s the wrong reason to do
surgery. I mean, she even mentioned that she wanted to exercise to get rid of the weight. So liposuction isn`t...
GRACE: What weight? Wait a minute! Doctor, what weight? Did you see her picture? Liz, can I see the...
NASSIF: She looks fantastic.
GRACE: I mean, she`s gorgeous, Dr. Nassif. I mean, she`s a beauty winner. She`s a beauty queen. Why would this woman need lipo? I mean,
lipo is just basically where you just suck the fat out with a long tube that you stick in the body between the skin and the rest of you. Is that
how it works?
NASSIF: Unfortunately, that`s how it works. And you`re 100 percent correct. You know, She`s fantastic. Someone pushed her into doing this.
GRACE: What`s bothering me, Dr. Paul Nassif, is that if a beauty queen gives in to that kind of pressure and gives in to lipo, what about
all the rest of us that really are out of shape, that really do need to improve ourselves physically? I mean, if she fell for this, we don`t have
a chance.
But how did this end up -- how does lipo end up in cerebral edema?
NASSIF: You know, I`ll tell you, Nancy, that`s not usually common, cerebral edema, because if something happens in surgery from lipo, it`s
usually, one, there`s too much of blood loss because somehow, a blood vessel got hit. Or you could actually enter into a vital organ with the
cannula. You can have infection. Your heart can stop because they gave you too much lidocaine.
But I think cerebral edema may be after maybe she had a heart problem, and cerebral edema happened after.
GRACE: OK, wait. Whoa, whoa, wait! Doctor! Doctor! Dr. Paul Nassif with us. We`re showing video of lipo. I mean, and it looks like
he`s just, you know, scrambling some eggs. He`s, like, back and forth and back and forth. Explain to me exactly how the lipo works.
NASSIF: So when you do liposuction, remember, you`re getting -- you`re attacking the fat that`s just underneath the skin. So you
manipulate the fat with one hand and you have the wand in the other hand. And you`re grabbing it and you`re just sucking it. And usually, most
scenarios, it doesn`t lead to anything like this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A beauty queen is dead, allegedly the result of a botched liposuction!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: All right, joining me is Dr. Paul Nassif from LA, facial, plastic and reconstructive surgeon. Also with me, Candace Trunzo, senior
news editor, Dailymail.com, and our phenomenal panel.
So Candace Trunzo, cerebral edema occurred during lipo. What does her family have to say? This girl was a medical student, brains and beauty,
she had it all, caves in to peer pressure. What does the family say?
Oh, everybody, you`re seeing video from YouTube. Candace, what does her family say?
TRUNZO: Well, her family believes there was certainly malpractice going on here. They believe that their daughter, their sister, was a
healthy young woman, a pre-med student, a beautiful woman who really had lost some weight on her own to exercise, didn`t need the surgery. And she
ended up dying.
And they weren`t even informed until 10 hours after their daughter passed away. So they believe that there is something definitely rotten in
the state here and that there was some malpractice on the part of the doctors performing it.
GRACE: Oh! Well, to me, it`s criminal. He might as well have shot her with a loaded .22 than do what he did to her.
With me, Dr. Paul Nassif. And also with me right now, clinical psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Dr. Ramani, I`m looking at this woman,
and she is -- by our standards, our society`s standards, she`s perfect. She`s gorgeous. She`s tall. She`s statuesque. She`s not the least bit
overweight. In fact, she`s on the thin side. And she`s a medical student, for Pete`s sake.
Dr. Ramani, why? Why lipo on this perfect person?
RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, in our society, it`s the question of when is it enough? Even when you see a woman like this, so
beautiful, the standard and the message to women constantly is it`s never enough. You can`t be too thin. And we push the envelope. And what`s
horrifying here is that this was done by a health care professional, the one person who should be looking at a woman like this and supporting her.
She wanted to be a doctor, for God`s sake?
GRACE: Oh! Oh! Dr. Ramani, look at your screen! OK, look at this!
DURVASULA: This is not OK.
GRACE: They stick this long device between your skin and your muscle and fat and just jab it around, sucking out fat cells.
Dr. Paul Nassif, does the fat come back?
NASSIF: When you remove the fat cells, Nancy, it`s gone. It doesn`t come back. But if you gain weight, the areas where you did not have fat
removal, that area gets larger.
GRACE: OK, let me think this thing through. So those fat cells, for instance, on your tummy, they don`t come back. It`s just that suddenly,
you get, like, back (ph) fat on type of where you had lipo? OK, that`s not attractive.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... how does it work?
NASSIF: ... that`s true.
GRACE: So then you just got to have more lipo!
NASSIF: I`m sorry?
GRACE: Then you want to have more lipo, have that thing stuck in between your skin and your body again -- did you see that? -- and they just
jab it around.
NASSIF: Yes, I mean, it is actually a very aggressive procedure to remove that fat. It`s nothing graceful about it, I`ll tell you that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, upscale Denver suburb, daddy allegedly guns down mommy after he downs a marijuana cookie and goes out of his mind. Mommy shot
dead in front of her three children after she desperately pleads with 911 to save her life. And in Denver, a 19-year-old Wyoming college student
plunges to his death from a Holiday Inn balcony after he eats a marijuana cookie his friend legally purchases at a Colorado pot shop. Longmont,
Colorado, a two-year-old girl rushed to the ER after she finds and eats a chocolate chip cookie. You know the rest, the chocolate chips laced with
pot. And it`s all legal. In Colorado.
Orlando, a teen driver high on pot mows down a grandfather, killing him instantly. As another woman hospitalized in Oregon after she consumes
pot gummy bears. And police on the search for parents that post this. Mommy and daddy might think the video is funny, funny to force their tot to
smoke pot, but we call it a felony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he`s going to do it again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her husband has been smoking marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shooting and killing his wife while reportedly high on pot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a friend of mine who is having a reaction to cannabis --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dan O`Donnell, anchor, joining me, WISN. What can you tell me about this guy high on a marijuana cookie I guess, that
guns down his wife as she`s pleading with 911 to save her life?
O`DONNELL: That`s right, Nancy. She was on 911 for several minutes while her husband, who is in an uncontrollable hallucinogenic state after
consuming this marijuana treat that he had bought just hours earlier, along with a 9 mm handgun. After the shooting, he allegedly told his 7-year-old
daughter, shoot me now so mommy and daddy can be together again.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to that 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: RP says her husband`s who`s been smoking marijuana.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A wife on an open line screaming a male had a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Need an ambulance. We`re going to need homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Dan O`Donnell, anchor joining me from WISN. We just heard the 911 call. The mom pleading for her life. Her husband is high on a pot
cookie.
O`DONNELL: Yes, that is right. In fact, while investigators at the scene found empty prescription pill bottles, subsequent testing found the
only substance in his system was in fact, THC, the active ingredient in marijuana.
GRACE: Unleash Norm Kent, former president, National Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws. Brad Lamm, addiction specialist, founder of
Breathe Life Healing Centers. And joining us tonight special guest, Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew on Call." Welcome.
First to you, Norm Kent, when you hear a story like this where the guy is high on a legal marijuana cookie, how can you continue to insist that
pot be legalized? And I`m not talking about medical marijuana. So don`t start up with that. I`m talking about recreational marijuana.
KENT: Because Nancy, I`m not going to let the isolated stories you drag off the Internet impact and affect the millions of -- millions -- of
Americans who use marijuana responsibly and do not impair or impact society negatively.
GRACE: Norm --
KENT: You are the one who is sending out the bad message.
GRACE: You stated that we dragged this off the Internet. When actually that is a police 911 call that you just heard. So are you
suggesting that somehow it is not real because it was written about on the Internet? Are you saying the 911 call is not real?
KENT: No, I`m saying your argument is not real. Because you take isolated instances of aberrant behavior and try to make them standardized
for all marijuana users.
GRACE: Really? Okay.
KENT: And once and for all, Nancy, have you no conscience? When will this stop? When will you own up to the fact that millions and millions of
Americans can light up a joint and have been since the age of Woodstock without impairing their families, driving recklessly or endangering people?
GRACE: I was really just looking for an answer to the question, but obviously you`re stoned. Let me go back to --
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: In a straight world you need to be stoned.
GRACE: In Denver, Colorado, Dr. Arnall, you are there, in the middle of it all. Everyone, Dr. Arnall joining us from Denver where the Colorado
assembly deemed it okay to legalize recreational use of pot. Doctor, I want to hear your thoughts on this.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, MD: Well, I can tell you that it is relatively common to find THC, marijuana in the blood after individuals either shoot
or hang themselves, get in front of guns and are shot during homicides. We`re finding it relatively common in children. We do toxicology on kids
under the age of five. And we do hair toxicology to see what type of ambient environment in which the kids live. So it is common to see dead
children with THC in their hair. So my impression is that there is just an appalling human carnage associated with this psychotropic drug.
GRACE: Let`s go back to Norm Kent, Brad Lamm and Dr. Drew Pinsky. Dr. Drew, I want to hear your thoughts.
PINSKY: I agree with Norm actually, believe it or not. The story you dragged out about the man eating the marijuana cookie could just as easily
be a drug withdrawal from the prescription drugs he was taking. In fact, the cannabis may have just been incidental. Now, I`m not saying cannabis
is not associated with psychotic episodes. I`m not saying that the forensic psychologist is not right, there are human consequences from this
drug, but that has nothing to do with the argument about whether it should be legal or illegal. It is just the facts about the relationship with the
drug.
GRACE: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Nancy, Nancy.
GRACE: I really appreciate Dr. Drew on call. I do. I`m a big fan. But you are in our house now. So you can`t just throw out a fact like --
KENT: It means you don`t get to talk.
GRACE: Okay. Norm, just try to get it out of your system so I can address Drew on this. Dr. Drew, you can`t just throw out a fact unless you
have backup for it. Do you have --
PINSKY: Such as?
GRACE: -- any evidence that this man that just guns down his wife in front of his children was having withdrawal from some other drug?
PINSKY: In the police report that you say is the factual matter that you have taken off the Internet, there were empty pill bottles found in his
room. And the fact is, he may have -- it is a common thing right now that people are being dismissed from their medical care because they get carried
away with their opiates or benzodiazepines and go into withdrawal, and in fact, they use pot to try to deal with the withdrawal from the prescription
meds.
GRACE: To Justin Freiman, let`s try to get the facts here. Just because there is an empty pill bottle in his room does not mean that he
killed her -- I want to see Dr. Drew, please -- because he`s having a medical withdrawal from drugs. Nothing in this police report that I also
have says that he was coming down from withdrawal. Nothing. You, Dr. Drew--
PINSKY: Why did they mention the empty bottles then, Nancy? The empty bottles are presented as evidence. Why do they mention that then if
it has nothing to do with the story?
GRACE: Because if you are familiar with police reports and especially in homicide cases, they write down every single thing that they can that
may be involved in the case. In this case.
PINSKY: Okay.
GRACE: There is --
PINSKY: Maybe it is.
GRACE: -- nothing to suggest that the pill bottles had anything to do with this. As a matter of fact, Justin Freiman, isn`t it true that the
father acted this way after he has a marijuana cookie. He went berserk.
FREIMAN: That`s true, Nancy, and also police say that the only substance found in his blood was THC, which shows the marijuana in his
system.
GRACE: OK, hold on, back to Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Again, the withdrawal from the other medicines are the case I`m making.
GRACE: In his blood was -- OK, Dr. Arnall, you analyze that for me? The only thing found in this man`s blood was pot-related. What does that
mean?
ARNALL: Oh, there are probably a couple of subsets of individuals, and in that sense Norm probably said something that is accurate, in the
sense that some people respond to marijuana in a catastrophically bad fashion. Others don`t. The first problem is you can`t tell the
difference. Second, Dr. Drew is in some sense correct. Many of the individuals that we see with THC also have methamphetamine, cocaine, other
substances in the blood.
GRACE: But this guy didn`t.
ARNALL: That is correct. And there is a subset of individuals. You have got a case of a person who shot his wife. There is a kid here who had
an epiphany while only on THC. And his epiphany, his word, not mine, was to repeatedly stab himself in the neck and in his chest. I did his
autopsy. There are a subset of individuals who exercise extraordinarily bad judgment on THC alone.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, OK, I appreciate where Drew is headed, but the facts govern this case, Dr. Arnall. There is nothing in this father`s
bloodstream but pot related substances.
PINSKY: But Nancy, that is very much my point. All the drugs would be out. He would be in withdrawal because everything is out of his system.
(inaudible). That makes my case.
GRACE: Actually the fact that there is nothing in his system.
PINSKY: Makes the case for withdrawal. Makes the case for withdrawal. Withdrawal only happens when everything is out of the system.
Where were the pills at his bedside. Why isn`t that still in his bloodstream?
Being ridiculous? I see this all the time.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, you`re really pouring as on the flames here. The facts in this case are that he was high after this pot cookie. His blood
indicates no other drug --
PINSKY: Therefore in withdrawal from the medicines he had been prescribed.
ARNALL: Nancy, you are correct. The most likely explanation is the obvious psychotropic drug that was present.
GRACE: Let`s roll that sound, Liz. Take a listen, Dr. Drew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It would be malpractice to say that cannabis isn`t addictive, and anybody that has experienced it or actually been addicted to it knows
how profound that addiction is, and of course Gaga is speaking from experience, and God bless her for pointing out exactly that, which it is a
relatively safe drug, which for some people can be profoundly addictive. And it`s easy to tell if you are addicted when you just love it more than
anything else. It`s all you think about. It`s what you`re going to do.
The sort of difficult thing about marijuana addiction is some people, even though they are addicted, can do fine with it for many, many years
before they start to have difficulty. But eventually the high starts wearing off. People start smoking a lot more to try to get the high back,
and that is when they descend into difficulties.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With edibles it takes longer to feel the effects of THC, marijuana`s mind altering ingredient. A 19-year-old fell to his
death from a balcony after eating a cannabis cookie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And now a story of a Wyoming college student, just 19 years old, who plunges to his death high on a marijuana cookie that his friend
got him. He was there visiting in Denver and plunges off a Holiday Inn roof, a balcony. And that cookie was legal. Open me up please to Norm
Kent, Brad Lamm and Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of "Dr. Drew on Call." Brad Lamm, explain to me what`s happening.
LAMM: It is like when Prohibition was ushering in and moving alcohol out of the dialogue. All we heard was the negatives about alcohol. And
that is what we`re seeing now with pot. It is this constant battle between the great things that the proponents of legalization want you to know about
pot, and then there are people like me who see some of my sickest patients are primary pot addicts. And even Dr. Drew has talked in the past about
how it can be terribly addictive. And one in five teens who start smoking as a teen are going to get very, very sick from it, Nancy.
GRACE: Did you say that, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: 100 percent. Every word in that tape you played before the commercial break, I don`t disagree with anything I said that. The
addictive properties of a drug have nothing do with it being a good or a bad drug or whether it should or shouldn`t be legalized. That is a
separate matter for the people to decide. OxyContin is a terrible drug if you are an opiate addict. If you have cancer, it is a lifesaver.
GRACE: Again, Dr. Drew, I`m not arguing with you or Norm Kent about the legalization of marijuana for medicinal purposes. That is not what
we`re talking about. We`re talking about the recreational use of marijuana being legalized. So I don`t understand. Dr. Drew, you have helped so many
people.
PINSKY: Yes.
GRACE: And so many people look to you. You say it is extremely addictive.
PINSKY: Yep.
GRACE: But that it`s okay to legalize it. I don`t understand that.
PINSKY: I do not think there is any logic into calling a drug good or bad. If you want to call a drug good or bad, then by God, we have to
illegalize alcohol and tobacco too.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMM: But you would draw the line with meth, wouldn`t you, Dr. Drew?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: In Portugal right now, they are having good results with legalization of everything. It is not for me to decide the laws. We deal
with the health consequences. There are going to be some dire health consequences from legalization. There will be, and we`ll deal with it.
But that`s not up to me to decide the law. I`m not a legislator.
GRACE: But you are advocating legalization.
LAMM: The thing that is --
PINSKY: I`m not advocating anything. I`m advocating that the people should have what they want. And if Norm is representing the people and
they want that. I`ve got the recent data from Colorado. It is not good. There is going to be a lot of stuff going on, there will be health
consequences. But we`ll deal with that. In the meantime, it doesn`t make it a good or a bad drug. It is the relationship with the drug that is the
problem.
GRACE: Go ahead, Brad.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What do you think about the fact that the majority -- vast majority of states disallow pot for recreational purposes? To me, the
people have spoken.
LAMM: I think it`s a big conundrum, and the legalization is marching across the country. That`s why, Nancy, two years ago when I remember I
told you some of my sickest clients these days are people who are getting addicted to edibles, they are smoking joints that have so much more THC
than what their parents or their grandparents were smoking. This is a real problem in real time that`s harming a lot of people, and that`s why we
dreamed up the Pot Project, which is now $2 million of free beds for people whose loved ones are addicted to pot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Although so many people are arguing with me tonight that pot should be legalized for recreational use, I want to report to you about a
deadly crash in Florida. To Dan O`Donnell, WISN, a teen high on pot crashes into Camil Paquet on a motorcycle. He`s killed instantly. This
teen immediately tells police, hey, I`m high on pot. What happened?
O`DONNELL: Yes, he did. As soon as police arrived, he said, I think I should let you know, I was taking marijuana before this crash. He made a
U-turn and crashed into Camil`s motorcycle, which was going the other way. Camil was killed instantly. This teenager and his two friends has taken
some pot and were on their way to the beach when making this u-turn and crashing into this retiree.
GRACE: And not only that, right now Justin Freiman, we`re investigating a story where a 2-year-old girl gets her hands on a chocolate
chip cookie. Of course we know the rest. The chocolate chip cookie is laced with pot. The 2-year-old is raced to the emergency room. What
happened, Justin?
FREIMAN: That`s right, Nancy. Her parents noticed that she had a chocolate chip cookie in her hand. It was brown and all, but they took it
away from her because she just found it on the floor outside of her apartment. But then all of a sudden, they noticed she seemed sleepy, she
was opening and closing her eyes, she couldn`t walk very well, they took her to the hospital and she tested positive for THC.
GRACE: So the girl ends up in the E.R., positive for pot. I`m confused about how the public can be protected. With me, the host of "Dr.
Drew on Call," Dr. Drew Pinsky, with us Norm Kent of the National Organization for Reform of Marijuana Laws, Brad Lamm, addiction specialist
and founder of Breathe Life Healing Centers. Also with me, Dr. Michael Arnall, forensic pathologist and medical examiner joining me from Denver.
He sees it all. We`re on the outside looking in at what is happening in Colorado. To Dr. Arnall, I`m trying to figure out a solution, not just
complaining but a solution. Dr. Arnall, for people to be able to get sick, go to the E.R., I`ve got another story where an adult female was eating
gummy bears laced with pot, which is also legal. She ends up going to the hospital. How can you be protected from what you believe is an innocent
chocolate chip cookie or a gummy bear and end up in the E.R.?
ARNALL: Practically speaking, there is no protection from that.
GRACE: Okay. Dr. Drew, the ingestion, and Norm Kent, Brad Lamm, gentlemen, the ingestion of these gummy bears and cookies that are laced
with pot is legal. All right. First to you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s legal. Listen, there is another element to this story too. The veterinary emergency room visits, a story that`s not being
reported, have been increased massively. But I must tell you, what Brad was talking about really I think is fantastic, that in Colorado, they can
now start to have a conversation about the reality of the drug, of its addictive potential, of its clinical consequences, because we have the
political energy around it has been removed, the people have had their way, it`s legal for recreational use, and now people like Brad Lamm can begin to
address the issue systematically and including protecting people from the edibles by for instance controlling the concentration in the edibles.
GRACE: Based on what Dr. Pinsky is saying, it`s like, okay, we tried it and it didn`t work out. Guess what, a 19-year-old boy is dead.
Children being raced to the hospital. It`s like we`re using humans as guinea pigs to test this out. But you insist it`s OK. I don`t understand
it. I feel like a voice in the wilderness.
KENT: Nancy, let`s get one fact very clear that America needs to know. The mere fact that there`s THC in your system does not mean you were
impaired. You can smoke marijuana and THC can be in your system for 21 days. Let me finish this point, Brad, so please don`t suggest that simply
because -- you`re being unfair. Let`s be truthful.
GRACE: Finish, Norm.
KENT: Let`s just simply point out that the mere fact that the THC is in your system doesn`t mean it is an indicator of impairment. There could
be, as Dr. Drew was pointing out, other drugs involved.
GRACE: Okay. Go ahead, please, Brad.
LAMM: So in Colorado, they`ve ostensibly capped the level of THC in edibles at 18 percent. That`s a control that might be useful. In
Colorado, too, the government has promised that the money that is raised in taxes to go to treat people who get sick from pot. That`s not happening.
So that`s one of the problems we`re seeing, Nancy.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant David Staats, just 30, Pueblo, Colorado, third tour, loved
football, dreamed of being a firefighter or a paramedic. Parents Roger and Wanda, sister Bethany, widow Megan. Son, Tyler, daughter, Katie. David
Staats, American hero.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
