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Nancy Grace
Criminal Charges for Basement Boy Parents; `American Sniper` Trial
Aired February 23, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Michigan. After we report a desperate father literally running door to door, begging for help
to find his little boy, a stunning turn. We break the news to Daddy right here on our program his boy is alive in Daddy`s basement.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, criminal charges of torture and abuse just handed down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Your son has been found alive in your basement.
CHARLIE BOTHUELL IV, FATHER: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Felony charges of child abuse and torture.
GRACE: How could your son be alive in your basement?
BOTHUELL: I have -- I have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A PVC pipe and bloody clothing were found in the home.
GRACE: Sir, did you check your basement?
BOTHUELL: What? Oh, God, my son!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Texas suburbs, the trial of a man who guns down national hero American sniper. Bombshell tonight. Did the shooter steal
his defense theory from a "Seinfeld" episode?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The ones in the sky or the ones that fly, you know what I mean, the pigs?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Routh believed American sniper Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield, were hybrid pig people out to get him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I`m just tired of everybody (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I can smell (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pig, you know?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Glenburg (ph), Maine, to the grown man, a father of one, poses as a teen boy on Facebook to lure a teen girl to her death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-year-old Kyle Newbie (ph) of Orono kidnapped Nicole Cable (ph) and killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why you would do such a thing to such an innocent little girl. I want to know what he was thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He, quote, "intended to kidnap Nicole and hide her, that he would later find her and be the hero."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t want to talk to him. It sickens me to know him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Oregon. Did a new mom and her husband let their 7- week-old baby starve while Mommy saves her breast milk to make lactation porn? You heard me right, lactation pornography!
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, to Michigan. After we report a desperate father literally running door to door, begging for help to find his little boy, a
stunning turn. We break the news to Daddy right here his boy is alive in Daddy`s basement. Well, within the last hours, criminal charges of torture
and abuse just handed down.
Straight out to Charlie Langton, reporter with WWJ 950. Charlie Langton, it`s my understanding this is the first time in the jurisdiction`s
history that they have done a torture charge where the child is alive.
CHARLIE LANGTON, WWJ 950 (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. Yes, this is a systematic abuse, systematically abused, alleged the father and
the stepmom abused little Charlie, forced him to live in the basement without food under extreme conditions, like having earlier (ph) an extreme
exercise routine. Also, there`s allegations that little Charlie was beaten with a pipe, that he was beaten so bad that he couldn`t sit, couldn`t walk,
and that there was bloody clothing found and blood on the pipe.
And as you say, this is the first time that the prosecutor here in Michigan charged someone when the victim was living. And by the way, it`s
a life felony, if convicted.
GRACE: What exactly are the allegations of torture, Charlie Langton? Because I`m very shocked that it amounted to torture charges. Again, that
type of charge has never been used when the child has been found alive, felony torture on a child charges just handed down.
I`m sure you all remember this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Charlie, we`re getting reports that your son has been found in your basement. Sir? Mr. Bothuell, are you -- are you...
BOTHUELL: What?
GRACE: Yes, we are getting reports that your son has been found alive in your basement.
BOTHUELL: What?
GRACE: Yes, that`s -- if you can hand me that wire very quickly? Yes, we`re getting that right now from -- from -- yes, how could your son
be alive in your basement?
BOTHUELL: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I have -- I have no idea. I...
GRACE: Now, this is just a report that we are hearing out of Detroit that we`re trying to confirm. Everybody...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, back to Charlie Langton with WWJ News. Charlie, I remember that evening specifically. And the reason we worked it into our
program because I really wanted to help find the boy. The father, I had been told, had been running door to door, looking for his son. Well, it
turned out to be anything but.
And another thing I remember, Charlie Langton, is when I asked the father -- and this was off-camera. We may still have it in raw footage. I
said, Where`s your cell phone? Don`t you want your cell phone with you, in case they call you? This is right before the segment started. And he
said, Oh, it`s charging in the car. And I thought, Well, I would keep the cell phone with me, in case police call me to tell me they found my child.
And I remember that is how the program started, that I had a fishy feeling, that he didn`t have his cell phone with him in case they called
him about his son.
LANGTON: Yes, well, you know, he misled the media, as well. And Nancy, we were trying to help him, too. I mean, obviously, a child was
gone for 11 days. Yes, of course, we wanted to help him, help the family find the child.
But as more information came out, the stepmom plays a role here. The stepmom was alleged to have said, Stay in the basement, don`t come out, no
matter what you hear, and that if you say something, I can make you disappear. The combination of all that, yes, it rises to the level at
least the prosecutor believes of torture charges.
GRACE: OK, let`s take it from the beginning. For those of you just joining us, we were leading the search for a little boy, little Charlie
Bothuell, Jr. He was 12 years old. And his family, I heard, had been looking door to door for him. I wanted to help find the little boy.
Well, we invite the father on to put out a public plea to find his boy, and in the middle of it, in the middle of the segment, we get a note -
- we get information from police that the boy has been found in the father`s basement.
Charlie Langton, let`s take it from the beginning. Everybody, in the last hours, torture charges on this little boy have been handed down
against the father, the natural father, and the stepmother.
So Charlie, how did it all unfold? Take it from the beginning.
LANGTON: Well, what happened was when the police found Charlie, little Charlie, 12 years old, he was extremely thin, told authorities that
he was forced to live in the basement, had no food. He also tells the story of having to undergo an extreme exercise regimen for at least the
last two years. And this exercise regimen was 100 push-ups, 200 sit-ups, ellipticals. I mean, this is a 12-year-old kid!
And then little Charlie allegedly told authorities that his stepmom put him in the basement. That`s when police found him. They were making a
routine search. Little Charlie would go up to the house to get food when little Charlie believed that his father and stepmom were gone. That`s how
he survived for those four days -- 11 days, rather.
GRACE: OK, take a look at this hallway...
(CROSSTALK)
LANGTON: ... and they found little Charlie.
GRACE: Take a look at this hallway. This was what was throwing police off a little bit. It`s a series of townhomes, and this underground
hallway runs the stretch of all the townhomes in the basement. And it was thought for a moment that the child had been living down there or he had
escaped from that hallway. As it turns out, he had been hiding all along to escape the alleged brutality of his parents.
Now, Clark Goldband, what can you tell me about this alleged exercise regimen? I mean, the father always bragged his son was the most physically
fit of anybody in his whole school. He`s just 12.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, according to allegations we found in court documents, the child, the 12-year-old child, may I add,
told law enforcement that he endured hundreds of push-ups, sit-ups, jumping Jacks, and also had to do 25 25-pound weight curls with his arms -- this
routine, Nancy, twice a day. On top of that, 5,000 strides on that elliptical machine once. And then in the evening, 4,000 strides.
Nancy, authorities also claiming the child told them if he did not complete this exercise routine within a particular amount of time, he would
be forced to do it over again.
GRACE: Marc Klaas with me, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, the boy has circular markings, according to reports, on
his body, which clearly is going to match up to that PVC pipe. Now, we were told at the time, and I couldn`t confirm it, so I couldn`t report it
immediately, that PVC pipe had been taken from the home with blood on it. And I`m assuming what they mean as PVC pipe is this white circular pipe.
Also, we were told that bloody clothes were found in the home, the boy`s clothes with blood on them, that if this little boy did not complete
nearly 10,000 revolutions on an elliptical, that he would be punished and beaten.
Not only that, Marc Klaas, not given any food. The little boy would go and forage for food when he thought the dad and the stepmother were
gone. And the stepmother, according to reports, was in it, too. She was in it just as much as the father, Marc Klaas.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Yes, Nancy, well, I mean, you know, they set unrealizable expectations and then punish him when he
doesn`t complete them. They`re nothing more than garden variety sadists, and he was their very unwilling victim. I think it`s fantastic that he was
able to escape with his life.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Troy Slaton out of LA, Randy Kessler, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
All right, Kessler, give me one good reason the evil stepmommy should not be charged, as well.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Why she shouldn`t be charged? You have to have some proof that she knew all about it. You know, right, now
it`s all circumstantial...
GRACE: She lived in the home, didn`t she?
KESSLER: It`s all circumstantial. Are they going to testify against each other? If they turn on each other, then maybe. But right now, who
are the witnesses? You don`t have any objective outsiders.
GRACE: Well, the boy. The boy and the fact that these beatings took place in the home with PVC pipe. So if the father was doing this to him
and she was standing by, she`s just as guilty, in my mind!
KESSLER: Unless she was beaten by the father, too, unless she was a victim, as well. We don`t know any of the facts. We need to know a lot
more.
GRACE: So do you have any evidence that she was a victim, any evidence except what you`re making up in your own head?
KESSLER: No. Do we have any evidence otherwise? We don`t know enough about it to convict her.
GRACE: Yes, there`s...
KESSLER: Not right now.
GRACE: ... evidence that she was ever beaten or tortured.
KESSLER: We haven`t had a trial yet. The evidence...
GRACE: I mean, that`s not the answer every single time a woman is involved. I find that very demeaning.
KESSLER: OK. You wanted...
GRACE: And it`s also harmful to other battered women...
KESSLER: ... a reason.
GRACE: ... you know, to say...
KESSLER: You wanted a reason she might not be -- she may not be guilty because she may be a victim. I`m saying the woman could be a
victim, and you`re upset with me?
GRACE: No, I`m saying that the child is the known victim.
To you, Charlie Langton. Before I go to you, Troy, Charlie, is there any evidence that this stepmother was ever terrorized in any way? I mean,
she was threatening the little boy and making him do all the exercising while the father wasn`t even there, Charlie.
LANGTON: Yes. In fact, statements from the little boy will absolutely point the finger at the stepmom. The stepmom is alleged to have
said, I can make you disappear, referring to little Charlie, and that if you don`t do your exercise regimen, you`ll have to do it again, and if you
leave, you will never come back. There`s plenty of evidence against the stepmother to be an accomplice here in these torture charges, at least
evidence that we know so far.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Charlie, we`re getting reports that your son has been found in your basement. Mr. Bothuell, are you -- are you...
BOTHUELL: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michigan prosecutors note this is the first time they have charged torture in the case of a living child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re both charged with count one, which is torture.
BOTHUELL: We looked in my basement. I looked in my basement. They looked. They went down there with search dogs. My wife looked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time you looked?
GRACE: Sir, did you check your basement?
BOTHUELL: I checked my basement. The FBI checked my basement. The Detroit police checked my basement. My wife checked my basement. I`ve
been down there several times. We`ve all been checking. How...
GRACE: OK, this is what we are hearing, that the missing 12-year-old boy has been found alive and well in his father`s basement. Now, this is
what -- I don`t understand why you guys would have reported he`s missing? And all our viewers have been...
BOTHUELL: He`s been missing for 11...
GRACE: ... on the lookout for him.
BOTHUELL: We`ve been on the lookout for him. We searched that entire house repeatedly. The FBI searched. The Detroit police searched. We`ve
all searched. Oh! Oh! God, they brought dogs, everything. Everybody has searched. What -- oh, God, my son!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m so mad, I could chew a nail in half. Charlie Langton, Marc Klaas, bottom line is the systematic torture of this child that we`re
now learning about in these torture and abuse charges that have just been handed down -- I wonder if that`s why they weren`t telling us the whole
story, Charlie Langton. I mean, to charge the parents with torture -- that`s never been done in this jurisdiction on a living child. So this is
what we`re learning.
LANGTON: Well, there are thousands of pages, according to the prosecutor`s office, that they have to review. It does take some time.
And when you want to charge somebody with a life felony -- for which, if convicted, it`s up to life in prison -- you want to make sure that you`re
going to get the charges correct and there`s enough evidence...
GRACE: But what I`m saying, Marc Klaas...
(CROSSTALK)
LANGTON: ... medical testimony, all kinds of people to testify here.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, what I`m saying is, how hard was he really looking for his son, when he knew the son could blow the powder keg on all of that
abuse? But I mean, coming on our show to try to find him? That`s going a little bit too far when you`ve been abusing your child, according to
police.
KLAAS: I think the thing that sticks out at me more than anything else, Nancy, is after you made that revelation that your child has been
found, he didn`t ask how the child was. He didn`t say, Is he OK? Is he alive? Has he been hurt? All he did was backpedal and try to justify the
fact that, somehow, he escaped everybody`s attention for some period of time.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler and Troy Slaton. OK, Troy Slaton, we were talking about why the stepmother should not be charged. Of
course, I think she should be charged, as she has been, but I want to hear your defense.
TROY SLATON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They may be pointing their fingers at each other. It`s clear, based on the child`s statement, if we believe the
12-year-old, that it was his mom who told him -- his stepmom who told him to go down there and hide, under threat of being cut or hurt further. And
it`s very important that when we talk about torture versus corporal punishment -- I mean, that`s going to be for a jury to decide...
GRACE: Wa-wait, wa-wait!
SLATON: ... if the action that he took was so...
GRACE: Hold on!
SLATON: ... bad...
GRACE: I`ve just got to...
SLATON: ... that it shocked the conscience.
GRACE: Justin, I may need my earpiece fixed because I think he was just comparing, Marc Klaas, corporal punishment for a child, which is
spanking them, to torture, where you`re beaten so badly with PVC pipe, the cops find blood on it, where the child`s bloody clothes -- his pants have
blood on them and his underwear have blood on them. That is not spanking, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Well, it`s beyond that. I mean, you know, they were beating him with the pipe, but the exercise regimen that they had set up for him
was torturous in and of itself. And it was also something that no person, except maybe the top athletes in the world, would be able to complete.
GRACE: Yes, you know what?
KLAAS: So his whole existence was a torturous existence.
GRACE: To Troy Slaton and Randy Kessler -- I mean, Troy Slaton, you`ve just compared what has happened, according to police, to this boy to
corporal punishment by parents, which is a spanking. So you think -- could you please put the lawyer up, Troy Slaton and Randy Kessler. You`re
comparing 10,000 revolutions on an elliptical and beatings with PVC pipe to normal corporal disciplinary actions by parents?
SLATON: This is what the kid is reporting. So have you ever known a child to exaggerate or embellish? You know, if my parents told me to go
run a mile, I might come home and say, Oh, they me run 10 miles around the block.
GRACE: No, no. No, no.
SLATON: So it`s going to be very...
GRACE: You`re completely ignoring the blood on the PVC pipe. What, do you think he put his blood on the PVC pipe to get his father in trouble?
SLATON: No, I`m not saying that. But we don`t know whether or not that PVC pipe was used to beat him, or maybe, you know, the kid was
bleeding from something else and got on that pipe. We just don`t know.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, did you check your basement?
BOTHUELL: I checked my basement. The FBI checked my basement...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know that he was in the basement?
BOTHUELL: No, I didn`t know that he was in the basement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The authorities have charged the dad and stepmom of Charlie Bothuell...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maximum penalty is life (INAUDIBLE) term of yours. Do you understand that count?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, Charlie Langton, joining me from WWJ, this is a story that we broke on air. This father had come on our show to try to
find his son. Actually, we found the father and asked him to come on and make his plea public, and he did. Charlie Langton, they look like they
can`t understand what`s going on. When you see the picture of them in court, the charges have just come down, they look like they don`t
understand that beating a child with PVC pipe is unacceptable.
LANGTON: And that`s the problem with when you interviewed him, right when the child was found back in June. I mean, he just didn`t seem to ask
the normal questions. Is he OK? Where was he? Can I see him? I mean, I would have thought that those would have been the first things out of a
dad`s mouth who really was concerned about finding his little boy. Didn`t happen.
GRACE: Back to Marc Klaas. Take a listen to this when I`m questioning him about his cell phone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Have you checked your cell phone?
BOTHUELL: My cell phone is dead. And I actually -- getting down here -- I left it in the car charging because it had -- it had -- it had died on
me. Oh, God!
GRACE: And you`re telling us...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I mean, Marc Klaas, right there, do you hear him stuttering when I`m saying, Why don`t you have your cell phone with you? Something`s
not right with this picture. I mean, going into it, something smelled fishy.
KLAAS: Well, of course something`s fishy. Personally, I`m never more than about six inches from my cell phone, and that`s 24/7. And I have a
cell phone that has a battery that dies on a regular basis, and I make sure to keep it charged at all times, as does my wife, as does almost
everybody...
GRACE: Let me ask you something, Marc...
KLAAS: ... I know.
GRACE: Marc, I hate to bring this up so often to you, but I want the viewers to understand -- when your child, Polly, went missing, I guarantee
you, knowing you, Marc Klaas, neither heaven nor hell could have gotten between you and a cell phone or you and a way to find out if police would
find Polly, all right?
So the moment this guy came in and I asked him, Well, have you checked to see if they found him, and he didn`t have his cell phone -- I mean, I
hate to read too much into that because I`ll be torn apart by the defense lawyers, but that`s just completely wrong!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live Texas suburbs, the trial of the man who guns down national hero, the American sniper. Did the shooter actually steal his
defense theory from a Seinfeld episode?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His sister testified I love you, but I hate your demons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he -- (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No -- I don`t know if he`s on drugs or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors have focused extensively on his drug use, including smoking marijuana and drinking whiskey the morning of the
murders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could have been wet, I smoked a little bit today. I tried to relax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When he referred to wet, weed, that is marijuana mixed with embalming fluid, like formaldehyde, which he was smoking the morning he
gunned down Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield. To Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent standing by at the courthouse. Martin, I`m
hearing that there is an argument that the defense got its theory from a Seinfeld episode or a Boss Hog reality show episode?
SAVIDGE: That`s what the prosecution is certainly putting out there. They are saying this jury has to decide, is Eddie Routh crazy or is he
crazy like a fox. And to that point, the defense has been maintaining he`s actually insane. That`s why he should be found not guilty. And he talked
about pig men. In other words, he talked about these supposed hybrids, these were experimental humans that were a cross with pigs that apparently
Eddie Routh was seeing, and as a result, he thought they were taking over the world. The prosecution said, that was an old Seinfeld episode there,
and this only shows you that the suspect in this case is actually lying, he`s not mentally disabled as the defense is trying to pretend.
GRACE: I never thought it would come down to this, do not move. Everybody, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, god, it`s a pigman. A pigman.
I just saw a pig man. A pig man. He was sleeping, he woke up and he looked up and he made this horrible sound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kramer, what the hell are you talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m talking about a pig man. I walked into the wrong room and there he was, a pig man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pig man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A pig man, half pig, half man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hospital receives grants to conduct DNA research. Government funds genetic research at area hospital, yes, so?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pig man, baby, pig man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have to hear about this pigman one more time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m telling you the pigman is alive. The government has been experimenting with pigmen since the `50s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you stop? Just because the hospital is creating DNA research doesn`t mean they`re creating a race of mutant pig
men!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jerry, will you wake up to reality? It`s a military thing. They`re probably creating a whole army of pig warriors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video from Youtube of NBC`s Seinfeld. Back to you, Martin Savidge standing by at the courthouse. It`s almost verbatim,
mutant, pig man, half man, half pig, and we think that the jail has cable TV, and that he would be able to see Seinfeld reruns. Martin.
SAVIDGE: Correct, that`s exactly what the prosecution is maintaining, Nancy. While he was locked up and sitting there in jail, he happened to
catch an episode like this, or some other show that talked about pig people, and he had an aha moment. And there was the defense laid out
before him. And remember, they say that even after the moment he carried out the murders of these two men, they believe Eddie Routh began concocting
a scheme by which he would maintain he was crazy. He threw out all kinds of crazy talk, talking about voodoo, talking about the end of the world,
talking about whether he was insane or not. All of that, the prosecution maintains, was actually a man who knew what he did was wrong and was trying
to get away with it, which, of course, they say circumvents any insanity defense.
GRACE: All right. Martin Savidge joining me at the courthouse. Martin, we`re going to play cross-examination right now. That means I give
you rapid fire questions, you answer yes or no. No. 1. Before the shootings, had the defendant ever talked about half men, half pig?
SAVIDGE: No.
GRACE: At the time of the shootings, after the arrest, and he`s sitting in the back of the cop car, did he or did he not say to police,
I`ve been feeling schizophrenic all day long?
SAVIDGE: Yes, he did.
GRACE: I was expecting during the defense to hear about the defendant`s, Eddie Ray Routh, military career, that he saw action and
therefore got posttraumatic stress syndrome. Is it true that the defense rested their case and never brought on a shred of evidence that he saw
action?
SAVIDGE: In fact, what they did -- the answer is, yes, they did rest. They did not provide that evidence, and, in fact their key witness said he
never did see military action.
GRACE: As a matter of fact, when he was in Haiti, although he told people he was piling up dead bodies, in fact isn`t it true, he never left
the ship to go on land except to pick up his paycheck?
SAVIDGE: That is true, according to testimony from the prosecution. He never left the boat.
GRACE: Joining me at the courthouse is Martin Savidge. Also with me, Dr. Harry Croft. A former Army psychiatrist and a PTSD expert, author of
"I Always Sit with my back to the Wall."
Dr. Croft, I don`t want to intimate the answer by my phrasing of the question. I would like to hear your response to what you just heard.
CROFT: As I told you before, one, I don`t believe this had anything at all to do with PTSD. Two, the facts as they`ve been presented and I
read the testimony in court would indicate to me that if this man was psychotic, he was not insane. Meaning he had a serious mental illness,
perhaps. But in addition, he knew the difference between right and wrong. Whether he concocted this story or not, I`m not sure. One of the things
that one of the prosecution psychiatrists said is, so look, in jail, without substance abuse and taking his anti-psychotic medicine, none of
this stuff was talked about, which means to me, if he was psychotic, it was worsened, exacerbated by the substance abuse and the alcohol abuse.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Prosecutors say Routh ignored orders from his doctors to stop drinking and smoking weed, and smoked and drank whiskey with his uncle
hours before he would kill the man known as the American sniper. The girlfriend said his temper was very short and that behavior was very
erratic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Telling the court quote, "I asked Routh if he was seeing things, he said yes, and then I asked Routh if he was hearing
things and he said yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bottom line, to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com. It seems like every time he was in trouble, he says, oh,
yes, I have posttraumatic stress syndrome. He never saw action. He had a DUI, he said, I have posttraumatic stress syndrome. He threatened to kill
his whole family at a fish fry. His dad calls police and says he has PTSD. He threatens to kill his girlfriend, he says I`ve got PTSD. And now this.
Am I right or wrong on that one, Candace? Please correct me if I`m wrong.
TRUNZO: Absolutely. Absolutely. It was learned that although he claimed that he carried dead bodies after the earthquake, he`s really only
left the ship a couple of times to go pick up a paycheck. And he really had a temper and he had a pot problem. His girlfriend had told him, gave
him an ultimatum, either her or the pot. That was it, and his whole behavior was motivated by his drinking and his pot smoking.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing "American Sniper," the movie from Warner Brothers. And for those of you who got to see the Oscars last
night, I read reports about it, I was still at work, I didn`t get to see it. American sniper`s Chris Kyle`s wife was there, and she was clutching
his dog tags and broke down, choked up on the red carpet. There`s no end for crime victims. Their life is forever altered. It will never be the
same. He left behind a wife, he left behind children, and for what? I mean, what`s so upsetting -- Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist, he`s
smoking weed with formaldehyde in it, embalming fluid. That`s got to mess your mind up. Now he`s trying to claim military action as his defense.
That`s B.S.
GALLAGHER: Well, that`s true, Nancy. Smoking -- they call it wet weed, it`s weed -- marijuana dipped in formaldehyde and then dried. Short-
term effects could be anger, frustration, depression, hallucinations, delusions, headaches, things of that nature. Paranoia. It perfectly fits
his bill.
GRACE: Back to Dr. Harry Croft, army psychiatrist, PTSD expert. You know, Dr. Croft, you are the M.D., I`m just a J.D., but of all the people I
dealt with over ten years, not just the trials, but literally thousands and thousands of cases I investigated and took pleas on, whenever there was
truly an insane person, they never thought they were crazy. They thought, you`re crazy. They didn`t think they were crazy. And this guy, every time
he does something bad or wrong, he goes, oh, I feel schitzo today. It`s like I might say, I have had a headache all day. This guy says to police,
I`ve been feeling schizophrenic all day, guys.
CROFT: Yes, I`ve been a practicing psychiatrist for 40 years. I`ve rarely heard a severely psychotic schizophrenic say, hey, I`m schizophrenic
today. They may hear voices, but they don`t say I`m schizophrenic, and I think that goes to the fact that in addition to everything else, this guy
was probably gaming the system.
GRACE: It makes me sick for all the veterans out there that are really suffering, after they`ve seen action, and they really do have PTSD.
With me right now, co-author of "American Sniper" and family friend of Chris Kyle, Scott McEwen is joining us. Scott, thank you for being with
us. You are the closest thing that we have to his family, and I want to know how his wife is holding up during all of this and sitting through this
horrific trial.
SCOTT MCEWEN: Thank you for having me on, Nancy. I want to say something as well ant point up what you said. That is this. Chris Kyle
died for the right of this man to have a trial by jury, which is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. So I mean, he is getting his
trial.
That being said, you know, I think it`s also appropriate that you point out that we have lost an American hero and that we lost someone here
that fought for this nation, and I believe died trying to help somebody that he believed was suffering from a condition which I personally do not
believe the condition existed. In other words, I do not believe it and I`m in agreement with the psychiatrist, and have been, based upon my personal
knowledge, not based upon the record in this trial, because I was not there and have not observed it -- I will just say I agree with the doctor. I
think this is a made-up defense. From my perspective.
That being said, Taya is getting through this. She is a very, very religious and very strong woman in her faith. I feel for her and I feel
for the kids, because we lost not only -- not only has this nation lost an American hero, but we`ve lost a man who had a wife and kids. It`s not fair
to them.
I look back at this and I look back at what happened, and why this guy did this or why he says he did it, and you know, I think there`s a lot of
people in jail that say they have got some type of mental problems, but that doesn`t justify him killing my friend. It doesn`t justify him killing
my friend`s friend in Chad Littlefield. I will allow God to forgive him but I won`t.
GRACE: You are seeing "American Sniper" from Warner Brothers. You are hearing Scott McEwen, co-author of "American Sniper."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, Oregon, did a new mom and her husband let their seven- week-old baby starve? While mommy saves her breast milk to make lactation porn. You heard me right. Lactation pornography.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom allegedly tells police she participates in lactation porn. Pornography catering to those with a breast milk fetish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, Chuck Benson, reporter, KAJO, lactation porn? They let their baby starve to death while mommy saved her breast milk for lactation
porn? Did I get that right?
BENSON: That`s right. That`s the report coming out of the state medical examiner`s office, that the child died of starvation. Reports are
they fed the child just milk.
GRACE: OK, to Clark Goldband, what is lactation porn, Clark?
GOLDBAND: Lactation porn is pornography involving the self-expression of a woman`s nipples when she`s lactating. OK?
GRACE: Wait. Self-expression? What do you mean?
GOLDBAND: When the milk is coming out of the breast. When the milk is coming out of the breast, lactation porn, according to all of the
research I have done -- I, like you, have not heard of this before this case. She would lactate onto something, not into a bottle. And, Nancy, I
also want to point out, law enforcement has not linked these two events. And, Nancy, the couple has said that they fed the girl multiple times a
day. The father of the child says, he noticed the child was losing weight, but it was really the mom`s duty to take the child to appointments, and
this --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Milking my boobs is one of my favorite pastimes? Unleash the lawyers. Troy Slaten and Randy Kessler. Could the baby starve to death
while mommy saves her breast milk to make lactation porn? Let`s hear your best defense. Randy Kessler, go ahead, hit me.
This is horrible. The bottom line is, lactation porn is a better defense than no defense. If she`s not feeding the child at all, everyone
will say why aren`t you feeding the child? At least there was something wrong with her, that she was doing something with the milk instead of
giving the milk to the child. It helps her.
GRACE: I actually wish I hadn`t even heard what you just said. You got anything better for me?
SLATEN: I think the father has a very good defense, that the mother was in charge of feeding and caring for the child. The father doesn`t have
boobs. And so--
GRACE: So it`s okay for him to stand by and watch the baby starve? Okay. Thanks for that.
Let`s stop. Let`s just stop and remember. American hero, Army Specialist Brian McDonough, 22, Maplewood, Minnesota, Bronze Star, Army
Commendation Medal, loved the outdoors. Parents, Tom and Renee, brother Kevin, sister Shannon and Katie. Brian McDonough, American hero.
And tonight our prayers with Alison Lorne (ph) in the fight of a lifetime, just 28, battling cancer. Here she is with her parents, Donna
and Ron. Everyone, please send up your prayers for her. Dr. Drew up next. The slender man confessions, a look at the interrogation tapes. I will see
you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
