Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Did Wisconsin Teen Murder Parents Over Boyfriend?; Trial Begins in Case of Girl Run to Death
Aired March 11, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Wisconsin suburbs. Police race to the Ayers family home to find a bloody crime scene, Mommy
stabbed dead on the living room floor, Daddy in the bedroom dead from a gunshot, the three little sisters locked in a bedroom closet.
Alleged perp? Bombshell tonight. The couple`s own gorgeous teen girl Ashlee. Motive? An alleged clash over her 22-year-old boyfriend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thomas Ayers and Jennifer Ayers had been killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they arrived there, they found a deceased male and a deceased female.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seventeen-year-old Ashlee Martinson, the suspect. The couple was her mother and stepfather.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 9-year-old told police she knew her dad was dead because his head was cracked open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Live, Birmingham suburbs. A 9-year-old little girl sneaks a candy bar on the way home on the school bus and fibs about it to Stepmother
and Grandma. Punishment? Evil Stepmother and Grandmommy force the 9-year- old to run laps around and around the house until she literally drops dead. Tonight, Grandma caught on tape telling the girl`s school bus driver she`ll, quote, "Run the girl until she can`t run anymore," forcing the girl
to carry logs while running, the girl`s arms covered in lacerations, the girl finally crawling on all fours, begging to stop.
Tonight, a secret witness emerges overhearing Grandma and Stepmom at the hospital more worried about their own cigarette breaks than the child
lying in ICU on life support over a candy bar!
Bombshell tonight. That horrific 911 call played in court. If convicted, punishment? How about Grandma and evil Stepmommy run -- to
death?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jurors hear a chilling 911 call made by Savannah Hardin`s (ph) stepmother. The 911 dispatcher testified that Savannah`s
stepmom and grandmother were unusually calm during the call and that the grandmother can be heard asking for a smoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a Palm Beach judge orders a 30-year old mom to jail after she goes on the run the her 4-year-old son? Why? To stop the
boy`s (INAUDIBLE) circumcision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second time in just day, Heather Heronimus (ph) was a no-show in court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child is afraid of the procedure, and that`s why the mother is looking out to protect the child`s rights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two are at odds over whether their son should be circumcised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Ogonguin (ph). A frazzled mom pumps her 50-inch Panasonic flat-screen TV full of bullets with her three children as young as 6
sitting right there on the sofa after Mommy catches all three glued to the screen, watching a disturbing music video by rock band Primus (ph), known
for songs like "Winona`s (ph) Big Brown Beaver," "Pork Soda" and "Suck on This." Hey, do you really blame Mommy?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to police, Jennifer Ullery (ph) was upset that her kids were watching too much TV. And as they were watching a
music video by the rock band Primus, she opened fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, friend of the show Dr. Marty Makary joins us live.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being us with.
Bombshell tonight, to Wisconsin suburbs. Police race to the Ayers family home to find a bloody crime scene, Mommy brutally stabbed dead on
the bedroom floor, Daddy shot dead, the three little sisters, ages 2, 8 and 9, locked in the closet. Alleged perp? Cops say it was their own gorgeous
teen girl Ashlee who murders her parents!
But why? Conjecture is a clash over a 22-year-old boyfriend with a criminal history. She goes on the run with this 22-year-old friend,
leaving her mother -- her mother! -- stabbed repeatedly, dead in the floor of the living room, the stepdad shot in the head, lying in the floor of the
bedroom in upscale suburbs.
To Rita Cosby, investigative journalist WABC. Rita, I don`t get it. What happened?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Nancy, this is such a horrible story. As you mentioned, these three young girls, ages 2, 8 and 9, were
with their mother. Then suddenly, they heard gunshots upstairs. The mother ran upstairs where the sound was coming from. The 9-year-old then
heard the mother screaming for her. And when she came upstairs, she saw the mother and her 17-year-old sister arguing. Then the three kids were
locked in the closet, and both of them were murdered.
GRACE: Oh! Oh! Oh! OK, with me is Seth Mela, morning show host, WSAU, there in the jurisdiction, on the scene. Seth, I can hardly take it
in. I mean, this teen girl had gone on her Facebook. She is precious. She`s gorgeous. She`s got the three little sisters. They`re all locked in
a closet, while the stepfather -- never had any problems with the stepfather -- shot in the head. The little girls apparently witnessed it
because they said, Daddy`s head`s cracked open. And the mother stabbed dead?
I mean, when you think of your mother, Seth, the first thing that comes to mind -- OK, think of your mother. Do you automatically think of
stabbing her in the chest with a knife? I don`t!
SETH MELA, WSAU (via telephone): Yes, thanks, Nancy. See, this is what makes it such a horrible situation. First of all, this small town of
Piehl, Wisconsin -- this type of a crime is unheard of. This is a very small area, very conservative, and just -- this is a tremendous shock.
This kind of crime would be horrific and unthinkable for anyone, let alone a girl that just turned 17. Her birthday was Friday, March 6th.
GRACE: Oh! She just...
MELA: And the bodies were found...
GRACE: ... turned -- and it`s my understanding the parents had had a little birthday celebration for her. And from reports we`re hearing, it`s
all about a clash over this 22-year-old boyfriend. Now, the boyfriend is - - if he is a boyfriend -- is not charged in this. But the two go on the run.
I know he has a criminal record. What do we know about him, Seth?
MELA: Well, Ryan Sisco is his name. He is -- he just turned 22 at the end of February. And yes, he has quite a rap sheet that goes back five
years to...
GRACE: Well, no wonder the parents didn`t want him with -- didn`t want her with him. I mean, she`s just 16 years old, for Pete`s sake.
What`s she doing with a 22-year-old guy with a rap sheet?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I mean, you can complain, but do you expect to get stabbed in the neck over it? I wouldn`t.
MELA: No, absolutely not. And this is what is (INAUDIBLE) We know who committed the crime, or you know, the suspect. We know where the crime
was committed. And we know what was done. The father was -- the stepfather was shot to death, while a bit more -- pardon the phase -- an
intimate killing of stabbing the mother to death.
We know who. We know where. We know what happened. The big question is why. This is just a heinous -- a heinous and (INAUDIBLE) this is an
evil, evil crime.
GRACE: OK, I`m hearing in my ear we`re going straight to a police presser on this. For those of you just joining us, a gorgeous teen girl is
now prime suspect, chief suspect number one in the brutal murder of her own mother, by stabbing her dead, and the shooting death of her stepfather, no
known disagreements between the three of them before, her little sisters locked in a closet.
Let`s go straight to that presser. What happened?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Oneida (ph) County sheriff`s office received a 911 call from a minor female child reporting an emergency at 1625 County
Highway C in the town of Piehl. Upon the arrival of officers, they discovered one deceased male, later identified as Thomas Ayers, 37 years
old, and a deceased female identified as Jennifer Ayers, 40 years old. Both appeared to have died as a result of an apparent homicide.
Also located in the house were three minor children, including the child that made the 911 call. The children are currently in the care and
custody of the Oneida County department of social services.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, we are showing you pictures of the girl. And we`ve got a lot off of her Facebook. Take a look at this young girl. What we know
about her -- Ashlee Ann Rose (ph) Martinson was 16 years old, just -- just turned 17, no known animosities with Mom and Stepdad. They`d been a family
for a long time -- and the three little sisters, when one of the little sisters apparently gets out of that locked closet and gets to a phone
somehow and calls 911 to say that Daddy`s head is cracked open, Daddy dead of a gunshot wound, Mommy stabbed dead in the living room floor.
Back Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, WABC. What do we think prompted this? I mean, the question of who is not really even a question.
COSBY: Yes. And we don`t know what prompted this. We do know that this girl was very gothic, very dark, and has this very disturbing blog...
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. We`re showing it right now, Rita. "Welcome to nightmare" -- that`s the name of her blog. "Let me feed your
fears and insanity one bite or stab at a time. I will bring life to your dead and nightmares. I hope you can stomach the fanfare. I wish you could
devour every tidbit I have for you, if you`re ready. I will paint the streets red just for you. Rushing through the woods late at night, deep
into the darkest corner where the agonizing screams cannot be heard, walking into a small cabin, marveling at the sweet horrors of blood I
thirst for. I then take the next victim, who`s unconscious, tightly bind them to the table, awaiting them to wake once more...
OK, you know what? Unleash the lawyers, Deborah Blum, New York, Peter Odom, D.C. OK, Peter Odom. I know she`s just 16 years old...
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: ... but she`s evil, all right? And she`s old enough to be tried as an adult.
ODOM: Well -- and they probably will try her as an adult...
GRACE: As they should.
ODOM: ... because of the nature of the crime. And I`m sure what you`re wondering is where the defense is going to be coming from here. I
can see the defense focusing on two things, just knowing as little as we do about the case. Number one, the posts, the blog posts that she put up,
definitely indicate some kind of mental illness. We don`t know if she`s ever been treated for that, so I can see the defense going there.
Also, the boyfriend -- to what extent did he influence her to do this, top what extent was he involved...
GRACE: Put him up, please.
ODOM: He`s not been...
GRACE: Pout him up!
ODOM: He`s not been charged yet, but that doesn`t mean it couldn`t be coming.
GRACE: Peter Odom, are you suggesting that every teen that goes to a horror movie or watches "Dark Shadows" and writes a blog about it -- that
equals mental illness? Because...
ODOM: That`s not at all what I said.
GRACE: ... banner headline...
ODOM: No, no, no.
GRACE: ... that`s not going to equal mental illness!
ODOM: Nancy, she`s going to get a lawyer. She`s going to have a defense. I`m here to tell you where the defense is going to go. You may
not like it...
GRACE: That`s true, I don`t.
ODOM: ... but that`s where it`s going to go.
GRACE: OK, out to you Blum.
ODOM: I`m sure you don`t.
GRACE: Deborah Blum, what`s the defense?
DEBORAH BLUM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s very early on. We`re just learning about this case. I think the best possible strategy is
to go with a mental illness. If you went to trial with the blog posts, the defense would absolutely want to keep them out...
GRACE: OK, please put her up!
BLUM: ... because they`re disturbing.
GRACE: OK, Deborah, I don`t know if you just heard, but Peter Odom just said that, OK, said it right before you said it. And I responded by
saying, teens or adults that go to horror movies and write scary blogs -- how, in your mind, Deborah, does that equal insanity? Which means under
the old McNaughton (ph) rule, which governs this jurisdiction, you do not know right and wrong at the time of the incident?
BLUM: Well, it`s possible she didn`t know right and wrong at the time of the incident.
GRACE: Really?
BLUM: We don`t know very much about this. We know that this is a disturbed girl because if you read...
GRACE: Then why did she go on the run?
BLUM: Well, that shows a side of mental illness, somebody who...
GRACE: Please put her up!
BLUM: ... can face her actions would perhaps stay there and deal with what they had done.
GRACE: Deborah...
BLUM: She committed...
(CROSSTALK)
BLUM: ... horrific crime, I agree, but what I`m telling you, Nancy, is there had to have been something wrong with this girl. Did you read her
blog posts?
GRACE: Yes, I read them.
BLUM: What normal...
GRACE: Very clearly.
BLUM: What normal teenage girl thinks those things?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You need to go on line some more because there are millions and millions of teens that get into goth, that get into scary movies and
scary blogs. Can I see Deborah Blum and Peter Odom? Deborah, again, the fact that she writes a scary blog, OK -- I write books. I write murder
mysteries. They`re about serial killers. Does that mean I`m really insane so when -- hey, so when I go shoot Peter Odom, is that going to be my
defense?
ODOM: Please!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... ripping off the viewer! That`s not insanity!
BLUM: We don`t know how she acted. We have to hear from other people that were in her life. Perhaps she showed signs of trouble. We don`t
know, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, to Michael Christian, also on the story with Seth Mela and Rita Cosby. Any indication that this girl had any mental illness history
before she guns down her stepfather and stabs her mom dead and runs off with the alleged boyfriend?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, because of her age, Nancy, none of that stuff probably would be public
record. But we know that she had no criminal record that anyone knows about...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you! I said, Do you know of any mental illness at all?
CHRISTIAN: No, ma`am.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seventeen-year-old Ashlee Martinson accused of shooting her stepfather and stabbing her mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 9-year-old in the home told investigators Martinson killed the couple.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Martinson...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told the girl and her two sisters, ages 8 and 2, they were going to play a game, and put the trio in a room with food and
juice and tied the door shut.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, let me kick this off by saying that this teen girl has not been convicted, all right? This is all just going down.
Liz, let me know when we can go back to the police presser. What we are learning tonight is this girl has just turned 17 on Friday, OK,
basically a 16-year-old girl. Police race to the Ayers family home there in the suburbs to find Mommy stabbed dead in the living room floor, Stepdad
shot dead multiple times upstairs, including in the head, according to our sources, the three little sisters locked in a closet.
She thought ahead and gave them juice and cookies there in the closet before she tied it shut and took off with a 22-year-old man, many people
suggesting that their relationship was the source of the problems with the parents.
I want to show you some of her art work. Now, the defense lawyers tonight, Deborah Blum and Peter Odom, swear that she`s insane. Let`s take
a look at her art work. OK -- OK, there`s a skull with a snake in it. There`s a naked lady with a demon. I don`t know what that is, but it`s
scary. Looks like a graveyard. OK, there`s another demon of some sort, another lady scantily clad, carrying a skull. Here`s the skull.
Still not convinced Ashlee`s art work -- if you want to call it that. OK, that`s scary. Does it rise to insanity? Can I bring up the name
Picasso? Have you ever looked at his work, Peter Odom? It`s abstract. Some people would argue...
ODOM: I love Picasso.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, I do, too.
ODOM: I love Picasso`s paintings.
GRACE: I do, too. I do, too.
ODOM: But -- and Nancy...
GRACE: But if you look at...
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: You misquoted me and I want to respond.
GRACE: ... think they were crazy. I didn`t quote you.
ODOM: You`ve misquoted me, and I want to respond.
GRACE: Please respond.
ODOM: You said that I swear that she`s insane.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: I`m telling you that given what`s she`s put on the Internet, the defense is going to at least explore an insanity defense. Now, the
insanity defense is often raised and it`s rarely successful, but when it is, it`s because there`s a documented history of mental health treatment.
We don`t know enough about her to know whether there is such a history, but if there is, the defense is definitely going to bring it up.
GRACE: Can I go back to Seth Mela, morning show host, WSAU? What more to we know about the scene, Seth?
MELA: Well, there`s not a whole lot more that`s being released. We just had a press release from the officials in Indiana (sic), and there
wasn`t a whole lot new that was released. But if I could get two seconds - - this whole idea of an insanity defense is ridiculous. You got to remember that when she left, she left her 9, 8 and 2-year-old sisters in a
room with food and drink. so that means she knew what she was doing in order to prepare for them not to starve to death and -- depending on how
long she was going to be gone. And to me, that says premeditation. That doesn`t say insanity. I don`t buy the insanity bit for a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Birmingham suburbs. A 9-year-old sneaks a candy bar on the way home on the school bus, and she fibs about the candy to Stepmother and
Grandma. Punishment? Evil Stepmother and Grandmommy force the 9-year-old little girl to run around and around and around the house until the child
literally drops dead.
Tonight, a secret witness emerges, overhearing Grandma and Stepmother at the hospital more worried about their own cigarette breaks than the
child lying in ICU on life support, over a candy bar.
Bombshell tonight. That horrific 911 call played in court. If convicted, punishment? Well, how about Grandma and evil Stepmother run to
death!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m going to run her -- I`m going run her until she can`t run no more."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 911 dispatcher testified that Savannah`s stepmom and grandmother were unusually calm during the call, and that the
grandmother can be heard asking for a smoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Liz, I want to see this little girl`s picture. I want to see -- I don`t necessarily want to see evil Stepmommy and Grandmother. Look at
this child, run dead, forced to carry huge logs as she ran, her arms covered in lacerations, found by the hospital, round and around and around.
In the last hours, the bus driver breaks down in court because the bus driver knew the little girl wasn`t supposed to have candy because of some
bladder condition. And she -- the bus driver is the one that basically rats her out, tells the stepmother and the grandmother she had a candy bar,
that poor bus driver breaking down in tears on the stand in front of the jury.
What do we learn in court about smoke breaks? To J.T. Tyson, morning anchor, WERC. J.T., what did we learn in court?
J.T. TYSON, WERC (via telephone): Well, thank you Nancy for having me back. I`m telling you what. This woman is a beast. She`s evil. And what
we learned today is she has no regard for her little 9-year-old granddaughter (INAUDIBLE) the 911 calls were heard, and the jurors heard
all the different testimony about what the bus driver and this Gerard (ph) woman went through in the discussions. What we heard today was that,
allegedly, she said, Give me a smoke, in the background while the 911 dispatcher was on the phone with the stepmother. Can you imagine...
GRACE: OK, wa-wait, wa-wait, wa-wait, wait! So they`re calling 911, and the little girl is actually -- this is after she`s been crawling on all
fours.
TYSON: Yes.
GRACE: ... this child there in the neighborhood, crawling on all fours asking to stop, and the grandmother and the stepmother won`t let her
stop. She falls dead there. She`s laying there at the grandmother`s feet, and they call 911. And are you telling me, J.T., that while they`re on the
phone with 911, they`re asking for a smoke?
TYSON: It`s unbelievable. I can`t even fathom it myself. Could you imagine if your child was laying there, you would be freaking out,
panicking, trying to what you could to help that child. This grandmother was more concerned about catching a smoke than she was helping her
granddaughter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jurors hear a chilling 911 call made by Savannah Harden`s step mother. The 911 dispatcher testified that Savannah`s stepmom
and grandmother were unusually calm during the call, and that the grandmother can be heard asking for a smoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, we are live in Birmingham where a nine-year-old little girl Savannah, pictured here. Lies. She fibs
about having a candy bar on the school bus. Her grandmother and her step mother, her evil step mother, force this child to run around and around and
around the family home carrying logs. Finally, the little girl is vomiting onto her hands. She`s begging, she is crawling on all fours to please
stop. To please stop. And the grandmother and the step mother lounging on the porch have no mercy.
Finally the little girl collapses at the grandmother`s feet. And grandmommy finally calls 911, and you can hear in the background asking for
a smoke. Her words, not mine. May they both rot in hell.
Back to J.T. Tyson joining me, morning anchor, WERC. J.T., I also learned aside from hearing grandma asking for a cigarette, on the phone
with 911 as the child is dying at her feet, I understand she changes her story multiple times and lying about what happens.
TYSON: Nancy, several witnesses told that (inaudible) told several stories about how Savannah wound up unconscious and unresponsive from this
whole thing. Paramedics say they told her Savannah suffered a seizure inside the living room, even though they noticed some twigs in her hair.
And then later in the hospital the emergency room, the paramedics her tell the doctors that Savannah had fallen backwards on the steps outside her
home. And yet here is still more stories. Savannah`s school counselors recall a phone conversation one day and say they told her Savannah had
raced to the bathroom and missed a step. (inaudible) hurt her head. One lie after another, Nancy. This woman is unbelievably evil.
GRACE: It is my understanding at trial, Matt Zarrell, the defense is trying to argue the little girl had too much water and that`s why she died?
ZARRELL: Nancy, they are saying it was actually a low sodium level, and they are challenging a lot of the prosecution evidence regarding the
dehydration specifically causing her death.
GRACE: To Dr. Tim Gallagher, she died out of dehydration. How can that be confused? Or it can be? Or is it just a made up defense theory
that she just had too much water and I guess drowned herself by drinking too much water?
GALLAGHER: Thanks for having me on the show. You can also have low sodium because of your perspiration. When you perspire, you lose a lot of
sodium through the skin. And if you lose enough, you can die of a low sodium condition.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Deborah Blum and Peter Odom. Peter, don`t you think it would have helped the EMTs on the ambulance if the
grandmother had told the truth?
ODOM: Part of the problem -- aside from the fact that what they did was so horrific, she told several different stories, all of them lies. And
then failed to tell them what we know how is the truth, that they basically tortured this child by trying to exercise the child to death.
GRACE: So right there, the fact that lying to the EMTs, Deborah Blum. It could have saved Savannah`s life if the EMTs had known what the problem
was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know they are lies, Nancy. They could be different version of events all of which could have been happened.
GRACE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think there was any intent to kill this little girl here.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- tripped backwards going into the bathroom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While the trial is still ongoing, perhaps there is evidence that will show she did trip.
GRACE: What about the fact that the grandmother told several different stories? I mean they can`t all be true.
TYSON: No, I completely disagree with that last comment the woman was making. There is no way this woman did anything but try and damage this
girl, run her to the punishment where she collapsed. There is no question in my mind, in the witnesses` mind that this woman was clearly out to
punish this daughter beyond what was expected of somebody that would just tell a lie about eating a candy bar. That is ridiculous. You ground them
for a day. You take away their cell phone. You don`t let them play with friends for a day or two. You do not run them for three hours with logs in
their hands until they fall --
GRACE: And do you know another thing, J.T. Tyson, is what were all the neighbors doing? They could see the girl running, crawling. We`re
talking about a 9-year-old little girl crawling around and around the house. When she was running, she was carrying logs. Her arms are covered
in cuts. What? Did they all just stand by and let it happen? Oh, there was one neighbor who said we were going to go do something, but 911 showed
up. We were just about to help. But we didn`t. So what was the neighborhood doing, J.T.?
TYSON: It`s not good. Chadd Jacobs (ph) and his wife, I mean throughout the running, he said spoke to Savannah in a very stern voice.
And they saw her running between a fence on the property about 4:20 and they had to go out and do an errand. Went to a birthday party and came
back about 30 or 40 minutes later and things were still bad. They were still running. And his wife came home around 5:00, the couple left then,
and they are still running Savannah. And this goes on and on and on where they see this for over an hour and a half, close to two hours. And you are
right, Nancy. Then they decide, maybe we ought do something.
GRACE: Is this a death penalty jurisdiction, JT?
TYSON: Absolutely. This woman is facing the death penalty, this is a capital murder case, absolutely.
GRACE: Let me understand this. Matt Zarrell, the grandmother and the mother are being tried separately. Correct? Right now the grandmother.
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: OK, and this is the death penalty jurisdiction, are they seeking the death penalty?
ZARRELL: Yes. Choice of lethal injection or electrocution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Let`s test your crime IQ. The Son of Sam, serial killer claimed he received messages to carry out murders from which type of
animal? Tweet or Facebook your answers using #crimeiq. I will reveal one of the winners here on the show tomorrow tonight. All you legal eagles,
you got 24 hours, go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to police, Jennifer Eulery (ph) was upset her kids were watching too much TV. And as they were watching a
music video by the rock band Primus, she opened fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A frazzled mom pumps her 50 inch Panasonic flat screen TV full of bullets. With her three children, as young as just six years old,
sitting right there on the sofa, after she catches all three of them glued to the screen watching a very disturbing music video by the rock band
Primus. Primus, known for songs like "Wynona`s Big Brown Beaver," "Pork Soda" and "Suck on This." Now think about it. You want your 6-year-old
child learning the lyrics to "Suck This?" Really? You are seeing Primus here on Youtube. All right. Straight out to Geoff Pinkus, talk show host.
WCJO. OK, Geoff, I`m not so sure that I don`t understand mommy`s sentiment. She comes in, she`s got three children sitting on the sofa, all
3 are glued to the screen watching this music video. Let`s see the video from the band, whose one of their most famous songs is "Wynona`s Big Brown
Beaver." How would you like for the baby to repeat that at school on Monday morning?
PINKUS: There was obviously trouble brewing in the family. The department of children and family services were obviously observing the
situation. They are the ones who called the police to go check on the family, to do a well-being check. So obviously we`re not talking about a
parent of the year here.
GRACE: To Justin Freiman. This is not exactly what you want your child to blurt out when they get to school on Monday morning. The lyrics
to Primus` "Winona`s Big Brown Beaver" or "Suck on This." Right? But did she have to shoot a 50 inch flat screen, Justin?
FREIMAN: That`s the big problem here. And that`s why she`s charged with a crime. She didn`t shoot once. Police are saying multiple shots
fired. Those bullets were actually lodged in the television, which was shattered.
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing a shot of mommy right there. Jennifer Ullery. Her husband has alleged problems with domestic abuse. So
she`s there with the children, three of them. One as young as six. Unleash the lawyers. Deborah Blum, Peter Odom. Also with me, Seth Meyers,
clinical psychologist. At what point is mommy, who apparently is there raising the children alone, just loses it and shoots the flat screen?
Doesn`t harm any of the children, but shoots the flat screen. She`s had it with the TV.
MEYERS: Well, first of all, you are saying she doesn`t harm any of the children. You are talking about physical harm.
GRACE: Yes I am.
MEYERS: I guess it is a good thing that she didn`t shoot the children. But come on, there is psychological trauma.
GRACE: Yes, there is no evidence this mother has ever laid a finger on any of the children. In fact, there have been domestic abuse issues
where mommy may have been a domestic violence victim. Come on, if I came home and saw my kids watching this? The rock band Primus. This is them in
a video on Youtube.
MEYERS: Well, listen, what I`m telling you, Nancy, is that when a kid goes through an experience like this, mom unleashes a rifle in the middle
of the home, that these kids are going to have nightmares. These kids are going to show increased aggression. There is fallout from this kind of
terrible judgment.
GRACE: Hold on. Stop. I want to hear this.
(MUSIC)
GRACE: You can take that down now, Liz, thanks. Let`s go to the lawyers. You know, Peter, if I came in and found a child as young as 6
years old listening to lyrics like that, "Suck on This" and the other lyrics. And there is a whole lot more.
ODOM: Nancy, there is --
GRACE: I can see her losing it. Again I can see what her defense is going to be.
ODOM: There is not parent watching the show today. A parent of a teenager watching a show today that has not fantasized about doing exactly
what this woman did. She got her point across with a bang, and it worked. The TV -- I`m not putting a stamp of approval on it, Nancy, I am just
saying there`s not a jury that`s going to convict her because everyone is going to relate.
GRACE: I don`t think they will either. And if daddy wanted to get off of his bohonkus (ph) and help out, that might help a little bit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, I think we`re forgetting about the fact that mom is now going to have an uphill battle in getting these children
back. That`s the biggest problem here.
GRACE: Actually, Deborah, as a matter of fact, the mother already has the children back. I want to go to Justin Freiman. Justin, the lyrics in
some of these songs really are enough to drive a parent over the edge. Especially for a 6-year-old child to listen to it.
FREIMAN: That`s right. One of the most popular songs, "My Name is Mud," has things like "six foot two, rude as hell, I got to get him in the
ground before he starts to smell." Some rough stuff in that song.
GRACE: Another thing, to Peter Odom and Deborah Blum, let`s bring in Seth Meyers, clinical psychologist, you are going on and on and on about
how seeing mom shoot a gun -- and I`m not a gun advocate, but soaking in lyrics like this. I was just looking at the lyrics of "Wynona`s Big Brown
Beaver." They are so bad that I can`t even read it on the air. What about that? Having that pumped into your ear on high volume all day long.
MEYERS: I would like to say why wasn`t the parent there supervising what content was on TV to begin with?
GRACE: I agree. I agree with you. Of course she should have seen it immediately and turned it off. Do you have children?
MEYERS: I do. I have two. They are six and eight.
GRACE: Do any of them ever watch anything on TV that you don`t know about or click online on something you don`t know about?
MEYERS: Absolutely. Listen, I know it`s tough for parents to monitor it all the time. The truth is, kids should have a limited viewing time
during the day. And parents should be monitoring what the kids are watching on TV. If they are watching something not appropriate --
GRACE: Seth, I agree with you. But I`m talking felony time. Peter Odom, could have, would have, should have, that`s not helping now. Mommy
blew up, blasted a 50-inch Panasonic flat screen after catching her three children watching horrible -- for a 6-year-old, not horrible to us, lyrics.
By Primus. I think she`s going to get off scott free and I`m not that upset about it.
ODOM: When my kids were growing -- they are grown now and they are good kids and we have a good relationship. But when I was raising those
kids, trying to limit their TV time and computer time, it was an impossible task. The media is relentless. We are relentlessly surrounded by it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Tonight, a friend of the show, Dr. Marty Makary, with us live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joining us tonight to talk about his new book, "Momma Maggie," is Dr. Marty Makary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is genuinely authentic. It`s pure. It has a tremendous impact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The book is the story of one woman`s mission to love poor children on the other side of the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her life`s work, giving a tender touch to the forgotten, abused and persecuted children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know what? This book is incredible. How did you first learn about Maggie?
MAKARY: I was doing it a medical mission trip. It turned out they didn`t need my medical skills, I was essentially useless, but I discovered
this amazing person who had been under the radar for years. And now with the Nobel Prize nomination has come out to talk about what she`s doing.
GRACE: To find your way -- I was just thinking the other night how we could help children that don`t have enough to eat. How did she find her
way all the way to Cairo`s garbage city?
MAKARY: As an Egyptian, she took a church day trip out to do a visitation program in the poor area and fell in love with the kids. Ever
since then, it has been her life affair with hundreds of full-time staff and thousands of volunteers.
GRACE: So moving, Dr. Marty, so moving. How in the world -- you are on our show a lot. You have a very demanding job as an MD. How did you
find time to do this?
MAKARY: I believe it`s important to carve time to realize who we are as human beings. When I took this trip, I thought I was contributing. It
turns out that what they go through there is amazing. Mama Maggie knew seven of the 21 Christians that were beheaded in Libya. They were her
kids. Two of them were leaders in her schools when they graduated. You talk about a real sacrifice. It puts everything we do in perspective.
GRACE: You know what? Dr. Marty Makary, it really does. Everybody, I`m putting this book on our website for you to look at. Incredible. You
have really blessed us all with this book. I want to thank you.
MAKARY: Good to be with you. Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s remember American hero, Marine Sergeant Brian Burgess, 35, Garden City, Michigan. Purple Heart. Loved skiing, riding
motorcycles, mother Evelyn, father Rex. Bryan Burgess, American hero.
And let`s remember the 10-year mark of the Fulton courthouse shootings, four lose their lives that day, court reporter Julie Braden
(ph), Fulton sheriff`s deputy, Hoyt Teasley (ph), U.S. customs agent David Wilhelm and Judge Roland Barnes. Today we honor them. With us tonight,
special guest Kylee, whose father, Judge Barnes, lost his life. She remembers her father with us tonight. We love you.
Everyone, I will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
