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Nancy Grace
Pet Store Python Kills Two Children; Death by Shower Bench. Aired 8- 9:00p ET.
Aired April 01, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, New Brunswick suburbs. Police race to the scene to find two little boys, ages 4 and 6,
dead at a little friend`s sleepover, both asphyxiated, smothered to death. In a stunning twist tonight, we learn the alleged perpetrator, a 14-foot-
long, 100-pound python, who slithers out of its floor-to-ceiling glass container, through a heat vent into the den where the boys all lay sleeping
and followed its killer instinct.
Bombshell tonight. That pet store owner charged with homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Connor and Noah Barthe were asphyxiated in their sleep by a rock python that escaped its enclosure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) by an African rock python.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The snake escaped through a ventilation duct in the enclosure. They found the two boys strangled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live. Police, EMTs head to a Syracuse mansion to find Mommy naked, dead from the bedroom shower after a fatal slip and fall. But
now police say it was murder by shower bench, a bench wielded by her millionaire husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a respected doctor, Robert Neulander, murdered his wife, Leslie. But Dr. Neulander says it`s nothing
but an accident. Prosecutors charge the ORB/GYN with murder. He could face life behind bars, if convicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a 77-year-old grandmother poisons the entire family with hot chocolate?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to New Brunswick suburbs. Police race to the scene to find two little boys, just 4 and 6 years old, dead at their little
friend`s sleepover, both boys asphyxiated, smothered to death. In a stunning twist tonight, we learn the alleged perpetrator a 14-foot-long,
100-pound python, who slithers out of its floor-to-ceiling glass container, up through a heat vent overhead, down into the den where the boys all lay
sleeping. Then it followed its killer instinct.
Bombshell tonight. That pet store owner charged with homicide.
Straight out to Chris Spargo, reporter with Dailymail.com. Chris, I - - I don`t understand. Now, let me understand this. The boys were at a sleepover at the little friend`s house. Where does the snake fit into this
scenario? Let`s start with how were the boys found?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Now, this is the crazy part. They`re both in this tiny little apartment, these two little boys, 6
and 4, with this 100-pound, 14-foot python. In the middle of the night, it escapes. The next morning, the father comes out to the living room, turns
on the light, thinks the boys are sleeping, suddenly sees they`re not moving, notices a giant hole in the ceiling, and then finds the snake
curled up in a corner and the boys asphyxiated dead.
GRACE: Oh! Oh! OK, I don`t understand why you would keep an animal, a killer, like this around your home. Now, true, it got out of its
enclosure and into the heat vent overhead, crawls along the heat vent -- to Dan O`Donnell, anchor with WISN. How did it get from the overhead heat
vent down where the little boys were having their sleepover in the den?
DAN O`DONNELL, NEWSTALK 1130 WISN: Well, as you said, Nancy, this is a 100-pound snake. The weight of its body forced that heat vent to
collapse, spilling the snake right next to the boys. And unfortunately, it did follow its instinct and asphyxiated them.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a special guest, the director of conservation at Wildlife World Zoo, also an animal trainer. Joining us out
of Phoenix, Dr. Grey Stafford. OK, I -- I don`t understand. He didn`t eat the boy...
GREY STAFFORD, ANIMAL TRAINER: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK. Do you care to introduce your friend?
STAFFORD: Sure, Nancy. This is Kah (ph). This is a Burmese python about 9 feet long, and a related species to the one that we`re talking
about in this story.
GRACE: OK. What is it, trying to attack the camera? They`re vicious.
STAFFORD: No, he`s actually tasting the air. And he`s probably looking for a little warmth right now and probably a little bit more
security to go hide somewhere. They`re actually not very aggressive unless they`re disturbed.
GRACE: Really? They`re not aggressive. Because guess what, Grey Stafford, OK, animal trainer, like you can train a animal from the wild to
behave like, you know, a person. That doesn`t work, number one. That`s my premise.
[20:05:09]Number two, I don`t like snakes. Number three, killer instinct -- a killer instinct for pythons should be so they could eat.
They could live off what they kill.
But here, this python murdered two little boys it couldn`t possibly digest. So I don`t understand why this happened.
STAFFORD: Well, I learned something new just now from your other guests, and that is that the animal fell from the ceiling. It probably was
startled and was probably aggravated and if it found those boys sleeping like it is, it may have felt threatened because of falling from the
ceiling, as I just learned from your other guests.
GRACE: OK, explain to me -- a 14-foot python -- what pet store owner would have a monster like that? Why?
STAFFORD: Well, it sounds like a very tragic situation. And you`re right, most families should not own a python. Certain snakes can make good
pets, like a corn snake, which is only going to be about 3 or 4 feet long.
GRACE: But why? Why? Why a snake? It can give you no love. It can`t do tricks. You can`t, like, talk to it and it emotes some kind of an
empathy back to you. What -- what about -- why a 14-foot-long, 100 -- will you put that down, please? It`s very difficult to focus with that thing
trying to bite the camera!
STAFFORD: OK.
GRACE: I mean, what`s the point of a 14-foot-long snake?
STAFFORD: Well, there are some people out there who are great collectors for these very large animals, and those people are qualified to
have these snakes. But you`re right, most families should not have a giant python in their home. They pose a risk. Like any dangerous animal, if
they get out of their enclosure, like in this case, it could be dangerous for neighbors and for family members. So it is a problem.
GRACE: Back to Chris Spargo, reporter with Dailymail.com. That`s all well and good for Dr. Grey Stafford to tell us that now. But we`re talking
about a 4 and 6-year-old little boy.
You know, I`ve heard a little background. We`ve done our research on this snake. Look at these two little boys. They`re dead. They`re dead
because they had a sleepover at a home where the 14-foot python slithers out of its glass container and basically squeezes them dead.
What do we know about the snake in the past, Chris Spargo?
SPARGO: Well, that`s the thing. We spoke to people who knew this snake, and they said the snake had escaped before, that it was completely
preventable. What`s more, it was often nervous around people. Some have even descried it as vicious.
GRACE: Well, let`s stop. Stop.
SPARGO: So not the kind of pet you`d want around a child.
GRACE: Chris Spargo joining me from Dailymail.com, are you telling me this snake that killed the two little boys had escaped before, and he had
been described as vicious? Now, when I take my children to the snake house at the zoo, I wouldn`t think of them as vicious. They have no emotion
whatsoever. So why would this snake in the past have been -- be described as vicious?
SPARGO: People who were around it just said it just seemed very uneasy around people, and that -- you don`t know why you would have it in
an apartment because of that.
GRACE: You know, we`re going to have to bring in a shrink on this, why someone would keep a snake that they know is dangerous to people.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins, out of Atlanta, former prosecutor turned defense
attorney Kirby Clements.
OK, Jason Oshins, give me one good reason this guy should not be prosecuted, one really -- don`t make something up. Give me a good, valid,
legal reason he should not be prosecuted.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think Dr. Stafford said it well. It was a tragic accident. That`s exactly what it was, Nancy. I`m not
going to hocus and pocus with anything else. It was a tragedy. And sometimes tragedies happen. And you put the two pictures of the children
up. It`s horrific, but that`s all it was.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this. If I could see Jason Oshins again? You went to a fine law school. You practiced law for a long time. I`m
sure you`re familiar with the theory of strict liability. For instance, if you keep explosives and they go off, it`s your fault, whether you were
negligent or not. It doesn`t matter because you have chosen to have an extremely dangerous device.
Now, here there`s a 14-foot python. In my mind, that`s just like having a loaded Uzi sitting on the kitchen table with children sitting
around it.
OSHINS: Nancy, I appreciate the analogy, but that strict liability would be in the civil context.
GRACE: That`s true.
OSHINS: I would not apply this here. This is an absolute tragedy.
GRACE: OK, then use the gun -- a loaded Uzi on the supper table, with the children around it having their chicken noodle soup. What about that?
OSHINS: Much different. Absolute strict liability. That gun discharged, you`re subject to it.
GRACE: That`s criminal liability.
OSHINS: This is not...
GRACE: That is criminal liability.
OSHINS: That`s criminal liability, this wouldn`t be.
GRACE: So Kirby Clements, the difference between this snake, a 100- pound beast, and a loaded Uzi. Why shouldn`t he be prosecuted? Why would you keep that in your home? It`s bigger than your children!
[20:10:12]KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, why do people keep dogs in their homes that are bigger than their children? This snake
escaped, crawled through a vent pipe, fell through the ceiling onto these kids. That`s -- that`s the most fantastic set of facts that no one could
have ever anticipated.
GRACE: The snake had escaped before, had it not, Dan O`Donnell? Hadn`t the snake escaped before?
O`DONNELL: ... had escaped before. In fact, it was sort of pulled back into this enclosure. But the argument that prosecutors would make is
that, in fact, this had been a preventable tragedy.
GRACE: OK, to you, Grey Stafford, director of conservation, Wildlife World Zoo, animal trainer, has a snake ever snapped at you or anyone you
know?
STAFFORD: Absolutely. And it goes to how often that animal is handled. You asked whether or not snakes can be trained. Yes, they can be
trained. They`re not tame, but they can be handled often and be made more comfortable with that contact. It sounds like this animal was not in that
camp, though, that it needed more handling and treatment.
GRACE: With us, Dr. Grey Stafford out of Wildlife World Zoo. Well, it`s not the first time it`s happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found this in the back yard. Jackson is an 8-foot-long alligator nearly 40 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officer approached the crate, could hear some hissing out of it, and there we find the alligator.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the city is asking for people who lost animals to contact them, what is your reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unbelievable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re basically saying, We`re taking the animals and feeding them to our alligator. That`s how I`d take that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they`re going to find out...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This bull python has been found alive inside of a cage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 3-foot alligator, 13 snakes, geckos and other reptiles all inside this Warwick apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an alligator in the back of the Humber (ph) home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 3-foot alligator was found by a man in his own back yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... 6-foot-long Burmese pythons that officials removed from this garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`ll purr like a kitten, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:51]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The former owner of a pet store is now charged with negligence in the deaths of two young boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disbelief and shock now turning to grief, 4-year- old Noah Barthe and 6-year-old brother, Connor, were killed by a snake as they slept at a friend`s house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autopsies determined that the boys died as a result of being asphyxiated by an African rock python.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A community still coming to terms with the unthinkable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Two little boys, ages 4 and 6, murdered by a beast almost identical to this python, 14 feet, 100-pound snake -- slithers through a
heat vent, a heat vent from a pet store owner, down into a little sleepover of boys. When the father comes to wake them up the next morning, they
won`t wake up. He looks closer. The two little boys are dead because the owner wanted to keep a snake like this in the home!
The snake from that home had escaped before. It had been described before as vicious, very cagey and anxious around people. Tonight, that pet
store owner charged with homicide. And I agree! To have an animal like this around two tiny boys -- more than two tiny boys?
Out to Dr. Bill Manion, forensic pathologist joining us tonight. Dr. Manion, how would the snake have actually killed the little boys?
DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, it`ll do two things. As it crushes the ribs, as it surrounds the chest and ribs,
the ribs can`t rise and expand. And as it presses down on the ribs, it also prevents the diaphragm from moving up and down. So basically, the
children can`t bring air in and out. Their lungs can`t expand.
In fact, I don`t think they could even scream because to scream, you have to pass air across your vocal cords to vocalize. So I was wondering
why would one die and the not the other one hear a struggle, but perhaps the snake just surrounded the child so quickly and asphyxiated it and bore
down, the child couldn`t even get a breath and scream.
GRACE: You know, Matt Zarrell, also on the story, I keep thinking of their ages, 4 and 6 years old, Noah and Connor, lying there asleep, when
they wake up with this thing coiled around them.
And you know, interestingly, Dr. Grey Stafford`s pet, as he calls it, is named Kah after the snake in "Jungle Book," who, I would like to add, is
always trying to swallow Mowgli, the little boy. That`s an unfortunate choice of names.
But Matt Zarrell, that whole day, they had had an idyllic day. The father had taken all the little boys to a farm where they had petted
animals, right?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, correct, and a private zoo owner said that the python could have attracted to the two
boys because of the scent of the animals on their bodies from the farm visit.
GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York -- help me out, Caryn. Why would a pet owner place the safety of their pet
or keeping the pet over the safety of their children? And you know, I hear it all the time with Rottweiler owners, pitbull owners. They almost put
the animal`s feelings and safety above the child`s.
[20:20:21]CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: In some ways, Nancy, what they`re doing is anthropomorphizing their animals. In other words, they`re
giving them human-like qualities and they begin to feel attached to them. They`re certainly not being considerate about the kids or even thinking
about them.
And I feel like the whole thing could have been prevented, if he had to have a snake, by putting in a proper enclosure because it should never
have been able to escape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, police and EMTs race to a Syracuse mansion to find Mommy naked and dead in the bedroom shower from a fatal slip and fall. But now
police say it was murder by shower bench, a shower bench wielded by her millionaire husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:03]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say respected doctor Robert Neulander murdered his wife, Leslie. But Dr. Neulander says it`s nothing
but an accident!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kevin Schenk, news anchor, WYSR. Kevin, thanks so much for being with us. Now, at the beginning, this was believed
to have been a slip and fall. But I want to go into the details surrounding her death.
We`re talking about Leslie Neulander. I`m always suspicious, Kevin, when the husband finds the dead body. Then I get even more suspicious when
I find out they`re in the middle of a separation and they`re heading for divorce. Then I find out they`re rich people. Rich people do not like it
when they have to share all their money.
I mean, hold on. Hold on, Kevin. We`re showing their mansion right now. This is the home that they were both living in. They were both
living in separate bedrooms. This is the home where Leslie died. Now, he says -- five-car garage and still adding on. There`s the master bedroom.
And the bathrooms are where the death allegedly happened. Check out that bathtub.
OK, Kevin, Schenk, thanks again for being with us, WYSR. Explain to me the circumstances surrounding the discovery of her body. Where was she
when police got there?
KEVIN SCHENK, WYSR RADIO (via telephone): Well, initially, Nancy, this -- this whole incident was termed to be an accident. An autopsy was
conducted after Leslie Neulander was found in her shower, in her home, according to police. And there was a lot of blood in that shower at the
time. But after an autopsy was conducted...
GRACE: Now, wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Hold on, Kevin.
SCHENK: Yes?
GRACE: My original question is -- everybody, Kevin Schenk joining us, WYSR. Was she in the bathroom or was she in the bedroom when police got
there?
SCHENK: Well, she was in the bedroom when police arrived, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. So her body had been...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHENK: ... told police that he found his wife in the shower. And there was quite a scene there. His daughter was the one who made a frantic
call to 911 at the time. And he claims that he moved the body from the shower. And when police arrived, she, Leslie Neulander, was found in the
bedroom of that home.
GRACE: OK, hold on, Kevin. I want to take it step by step. So he claims he finds her in the shower and moves her to the bedroom. Why? Why
does he say he moves her to the bedroom?
SCHENK: He claims that -- you know, obviously, he didn`t know at that particular time whether she was still alive or not. He moved her to the
bedroom to try and render assistance...
GRACE: He`s a doctor, though, right, Kevin? He`s a doctor, an OB/GYN?
SCHENK: Yes, he`s an OB/GYN, a very prominent doctor here.
GRACE: And he didn`t know she was dead? I mean, wasn`t her skull torn open, and he didn`t know she was dead?
SCHENK: Well, that is the claim that`s being made by the defense here, that he tried to render assistance in this bedroom.
GRACE: OK.
SPARGO: And then the daughter, his daughter Jenna, made this frantic call to 911 at the time.
GRACE: Now, let`s -- don`t move that graphic, please. With me, Kevin Schenk and Dave Mack. Kevin, autopsy results -- fractured skull, black
eye, bruising to the brain and internal organs -- and internal organs -- that`s significant because those are all over your torso and abdomen --
bruised forehead, cheeks, nose, shoulders, arms and fingers.
Kevin Schenk, that was quite a fall, wasn`t it.
SCHENK: That was indeed quite a fall, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:34]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution says Dr. Neulander and his wife were living in separate bedrooms and were planning to be separated. The
state argues this could be motive for her death. But the defense says this is nothing but a tragic accident. And prosecutors have made all sorts of
leaps and conclusions to fit their case. What happened to Dr. Neulander`s wife?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We have police and EMTs race to the scene, they believe there`s been a tragic slip and fall in this gorgeous shower of this
mansion. Leslie Neulander dead. Her skull torn open, forehead, nose, cheeks, shoulders, arms, fingers, bruises, black eye. Internal damage to
her organs. This is the home they were going to have to split up and sell if that divorce went through. The two currently separated, living in
separate bedrooms under the same roof. A real-life war of the roses.
So if she slipped and fell to her death in the shower, why was she dragged into the bedroom? Joining me Kevin Schenk from WSYR. And Dave
Mack, syndicated talk show host. So, Dave, let me go through this very methodically, she was found in the morning hours, correct?
MACK: Correct.
GRACE: Explain to me the timeline. What happened that morning?
MACK: Well, according to her husband, he went out for a run at 6:00, 6:30 in the morning, when he came back--
GRACE: Stop. Did he normally jog? Because I`ve seen so many husbands go jogging for the first time since they were in college, and
whoa, their wife dies while they were jogging. So is this a sudden health kick or did he normally jog, do we know?
MACK: I don`t know if he ran or not, Nancy.
GRACE: He did that morning. Go ahead.
MACK: He said he went and checked it twice. The door was either locked or it was shut. Depending on which story he`s telling. Then he
goes and wakes his daughter up. A couple of hours have now gone by. We`re talking from 6:30 to 9:00 in the morning -- where a bunch of normal morning
things are talking place.
GRACE: Now I understand what you`re saying about the coffee still being hot. So he goes from the kitchen where he makes a cup of coffee, and
he takes it up to his wife. Some door -- obviously the bathroom door either shut or locked. He leaves the coffee in the bedroom. Hours pass.
He then discovers his wife dead. I get it. How could the coffee still be hot? Got it. Go ahead
MACK: Okay. So finally, this is what gets interesting, because there is a phone in the bathroom, but he says it doesn`t work. So he goes and
tells his daughter to call 911. Then this doctor -- medically trained doctor -- decides that even though he sees his wife with a head wound and
neck trauma, that he should drag here 50 feet and place her between the bed and a night stand, in a very small area, Nancy.
GRACE: Between the bed and the night stand. That`s very odd. Kevin Schenk joining me from WSYR out of Syracuse. Kevin, why would you put
somebody between the bed and the night stand to do CPR?
KEVIN SCHENK, WSYR: That is the question prosecutors are asking about this. If you are going to render assistance, you call 911. She is in the
shower with these traumatic injuries. And the prosecution claims why on god`s green earth did you move your wife`s body into a nearby bedroom? It
does not make sense to the prosecution.
GRACE: And I haven`t even started on the blood evidence. Clark Goldband, what can you tell me about blood evidence?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, there was blood spatter both in the bathroom and also blood spatter in the bedroom. According to prosecutors, however, even
though there was blood spatter inside that bedroom, Nancy, blood hit some bottles of water, blood hit some things on the dresser, but blood did not
hit that coffee cup.
GRACE: Back to the coffee cup.
GOLDBAND: Yes.
GRACE: Back to the coffee cup, Dave Mack. So what he`s saying is there is blood spatter. Now you only get blood spatter from a gunshot
wound and you get the high velocity spatter or hitting with an instrument and you get spatter when the skin is broken. It spatters like you throw
down a pumpkin and it spatters up. So there is spatter everywhere. And it even hits items sitting up on the dresser. I guess in front of the mirror,
like perfumes. Lotions and potions. The coffee is sitting right there. It is not hit. Everything else is hit with blood but it.
MACK: That goes to the staging of the scene, Nancy. And there are also other items that also had no blood spatter on them but parts
underneath did have blood spatter. Which again backs up the prosecution`s idea that it was all a staged scene after a beating in the bedroom and a
murder in the bathroom.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Jason Oshins, New York, Kirby Clements, Atlanta. Kirby, let`s hear your best defense.
CLEMENTS: The best defense is the fact this thing initially was not ruled a homicide. That is No. 1.
GRACE: Say that again.
CLEMENTS: When this first happened, I believe the medical examiner was -- found the cause of death was ruled accidental. It was not ruled a
homicide is my understanding. Unless I misread that. It seems to me you have conflicting defense experts compared with the prosecution`s experts.
She is found in the shower, he did take her out.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: He says he found her in the shower and that can`t be true with the blood spatter, Kirby.
CLEMENTS: It can be. She died in the shower. She struck her head on the shower bench. That is clear. She died of blunt force trauma. Where
is your murder weapon? It`s right there. The cause of death is right there.
GRACE: Put him up.
CLEMENTS: Put me up, because the cause of death shows you right there.
GRACE: Kirby, how can there be blood spatter on the walls of the bedroom if she didn`t die in the bedroom?
CLEMENTS: Because if she was bloody when he took her out of the shower and he brought her into the bedroom, that blood could have come from
him because she was bleeding, she was just spot bleeding--
GRACE: Not spatter.
CLEMENTS: Yes. Spatter.
GRACE: Don`t you watch CSI?
CLEMENTS: I do. That`s why it`s a TV show. I`m talking reality.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me go to Dr. Bill Manion, forensic pathologist. OK, he`s obviously not understanding me, Dr. Manion. Can you explain to Kirby
Clements why it is impossible? Dragging a body into another room does not leave spatter on the wall.
[20:40:02]
MANION: That`s correct. Spatter would have to be from the scalp or head being struck by a blunt object and then spreading the blood from the
wound across the room to the wall. You may have blood dripping on the carpet, but there would not be any blood spatter.
GRACE: Okay. Why is it that so often women are found dead in bathtubs?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fallen in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s in the bathtub? Who?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michelle was found dead in her bathtub in their home in Pleasant Grove, Utah by their youngest daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kathleen Savio was his third wife. Just days from divorce, she was found dead in her bathtub. It was originally ruled an
accidental drowning, but the cause of death was changed to homicide after her body was exhumed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jill Halliburton Sue (ph) had been murdered inside her home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The son discovered the body in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death is suspicious. The official cause was drowning. She was found in the bathtub of her Salt Lake City home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:20]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a respected doctor, Robert Neulander, murdered his wife Leslie. Dr. Neulander says it`s nothing but
an accident. Prosecutors charged the ob-gyn with murder. He could face life behind bars if convicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: His wife Leslie found with multiple injuries, including a skull torn open, a black eye, contusions to the forehead, cheeks, nose,
shoulders, arms, fingers. That is quite a fall in the shower. All of that from a fall in the shower? Bruising to the brain and internal organs in
the abdomen and torso? Now, Dr. Neulander, who was in the middle of a divorce, had a lot to lose. No. 1, this mansion. It is huge. A
multimillion dollar mansion. About $3 to $5 million in joint assets, and a $500,000 beneficiary status in the wife`s will. What do we know about the
money, Clark?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, according to prosecutors, they said that the defendant here, the doctor, had a net worth between $4 and $6 million. And
if there was a divorce to actually take place, that money would be split in half. They also described in court, Nancy, the prosecution, that the wife
actually had in place a $500,000 life insurance policy too.
GRACE: Now, according to the father, the doctor, he is an ob/gyn there. He comes home from a jog. Several hours. He takes his wife, who
they are in the middle of an acrimonious separation, but he lovingly takes her a cup of hot coffee. Leaves it. Says the bathroom door is locked
closed. Hours pass, he comes to find his wife dead. He drags her body out of the shower into the bedroom and wedges her basically between the bed and
the night table, where he says he is going to perform CPR. Then why is there spatter -- blood spatter -- on the bedroom walls? Not only that,
explain to me, Kirby Clements, Jason Oshins, unleash the lawyers. Why would he pick that time of all times, much like Jodi Arias, to do laundry?
OSHINS: I don`t know what their exact timing is of jogging or laundry. What I`m more concerned about is the 18 people who came in that
morning to respond. The spatter could have come from the contamination of the scene, Nancy.
GRACE: I know what you are doing, Nancy. You are saying look here, not there. Don`t look at the fact that Dr. Neulander suddenly became a
neatnik. Just like Scott Peterson, just like Jodi Arias. Do they really think blood washes out in the spin cycle?
OSHINS: I think the prosecutor is reaching for a murder weapon at the end. He hasn`t had one the entire time. He comes in with this shower seat
that`s been used as the weapon. I think the best witness for the defense is his daughter Jenna, who`s corroborated most of everything that has been
testified.
GRACE: I want to get back to what we`re talking about, Jason. We`re talking about the blood spatter and the washing of the clothes. To Dave
Mack, syndicated talk show host. What can you tell me about the sheets being changed and a pillow missing?
MACK: That is according to the housekeeper, Nancy. There was no reason for Mr. Neulander to be doing any laundry. They had a housekeeper
that did all that.
GRACE: You are seeing inside the Neulander home. When the police arrived, the wife`s body had been dragged out of bathroom into the bedroom.
At this hour, four different experts claim no, it is not an accident. It was murder. But the original cause of death was deemed to be an accident.
Dr. Manion, can you explain?
MANION: Well, forensic pathologists aren`t perfect. And unless the pathologist went to the scene and was very suspicious and looked at
everything, I mean, we rely on police information. And a lot of times if the police say oh yes, this looks like an accident and the slip -- the
floor was very slippery and blah, blah. And yes, if you are not that concerned about it and you have another big homicide case on your desk, you
can go fast and just blow past it. But if you are very careful and go to the scene and weigh everything, just from the facts you`ve told me, this is
highly, highly suspicious of homicide.
[20:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now a 77-year-old grandmother poisons the entire family with hot chocolate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A grandmother is now facing charges after reports claim she poisoned many of her family members with chocolate milk, made
from a powder that was a quarter century old, 25 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She poisons her entire family with hot chocolate. Hot chocolate from those little packs. They`re called saches (ph), I`ve
learned, that was 25 years old. This rises to the level of an aggravated assault.
Dr. Bill Manion, how can something like hot chocolate be deadly?
[20:55:10]
MANION: Well, it is amazing. But apparently, bacterial organisms, especially salmonella, can survive for decades in foods. And in this case,
the salmonella were probably activated when they were ingested. And as the bacteria replicated and invaded the body, they caused sepsis and eventual
death.
GRACE: It`s not the first time that bad food has resulted in death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not just quarter century old hot chocolate. Lots of everyday food items can cause great pain and danger and even death
if they are consumed past their expiration dates. A two-year-old tot drinks up to 24 ounces of orange juice that expired more than a year
earlier, and mom rushes the child to the E.R. A 5-year-old reportedly dies after consuming noodles said to have been packed five years before. A
couple`s young kids drink milk that was left open before the family`s 10 day vacation. Someone eats bad mayonnaise that`s been in the fridge for
months on end and gets a nasty case of food poisoning and in a panic, turns to Internet forums for answers.
GRACE: To Stacey Newman on the story, Stacey, this grandmother poisons her entire family with hot chocolate, and she`s now being charged
with serious charges like aggravated assault. What happened?
NEWMAN: Well, Nancy, as you said earlier, this grandmother whips up this hot delicious treat when her grandchildren and a friend ask her to
make the hot chocolate. But (inaudible) the chocolate was so old -- let`s put this in historical perspective. At the time it expired, it was the
fall of the Berlin wall. Nelson Mandela walked free from prison. That`s how old these packets were.
GRACE: You know, Stacey, you may make fun of it and make light of it by talking about it was packaged when the Berlin wall fell and Nelson
Mandela -- you know what? If you are lying on a hospital gurney facing death, it may not be as funny.
Unleash the lawyers. Jason Oshins, Kirby Clements, grandma now faces serious charges. Aggravated assault can land you behind bars for up to 20
years, sometimes to life. Kirby Clements, she poisoned her entire family with hot chocolate.
CLEMENTS: No, she didn`t. She was an old woman who picked up some hot chocolate and gave it to her family. This is a foolish thing that they
are prosecuting this lady.
GRACE: They were poisoned.
CLEMENTS: They got poisoned accidentally. She was making hot chocolate for her family. Dear goodness, sometimes people just take things
to a ridiculous level. And this is one of those times.
GRACE: Goodness, I never heard that out of your mouth before. Okay. Jason Oshins, weigh in.
OSHINS: The problem I have, Nancy--
GRACE: Tell me why grandma shouldn`t go to jail. I once prosecuted the oldest lady ever in my jurisdiction, 78 years old, for grand larceny.
OK? They dragged her out by her armpits. This lady poisoned her whole family with hot chocolate.
OSHINS: Nancy, larceny is an intent crime. There was no intent here to poison herself and the entire family.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: It`s like the argument with DUI. Did you mean to drink the drinks? Did you mean to get out your car keys? Did you mean to crank up
the car? Here you go. Did she mean to take them out of the box? Did she mean to stir in the water? Did she mean to serve them to little children
and family members? Poisoning them all. Okay. I`m just trying to hear one good reason why she should not be charged. I`m going to give you
another crack at it.
CLEMENTS: Accident, Nancy. That`s what it`s called.
GRACE: Accident. All right. Jason?
OSHINS: Purely accident, Nancy. Unfortunate. Unfortunate.
GRACE: Oh, you are adding unfortunate accident. You will be happy to know that I agree with you. I don`t think she should be prosecuted. But
guess what, the wheels are in motion. I hope the prosecutor is listening tonight. We all think it was a tragic accident. Grandma should not go to
jail.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Marine Lance Corporal Joshua Hines, Westville, Illinois, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, National
Defense Service Medal, loved horse back riding on the beach. Remembered for a twinkle in his eyes. Parents Michael and Kay Ann, three brothers,
two sisters, widow, Karen, son Riley. Joshua Hines, American hero.
It`s child abuse prevention month. Today marks Child Help`s national day of hope. To raise awareness to help children. Please, go to
childhelp.org. Child Help`s national abuse hotline, 800-4achild. Dr. Drew up next. I will see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then,
good night, friend.
END
