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Nancy Grace
Police Say Naked Man Is Not Violating Law; Louisiana Man Kills Neighbor He Mistook For An Alligator. Aired 8:30-9:00p ET
Aired April 07, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Newport, Michigan. She goes to a Halloween costume party dressed as super-villain Poison Ivy from
"Batman." Amidst the other party goers, she disappears, never seen again.
Bombshell tonight. Happening right now. Police have found parts of a Halloween costume that may be connected to the disappearance of Chelsea
Bruck.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the clothing discovered part of a Halloween costume Chelsea was wearing the night she disappeared from a party at a Monroe
County farmhouse?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not see Chelsea at the party at all. There were a lot of people. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not see her. There was quite a few people here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Charlotte. The neighbor from hell allegedly parades naked at his front door several times a day for years. But cops refuse to
arrest him!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would not stand outside my door naked, and no one has a picture of me standing outside my door naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why stand at the door (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to practice serenity in this world. That`s the what the world wants everyone to understand, serenity, rationalism, being
reasonable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live to Cajun country. It`s the first time ever a murder suspect uses the, quote, "alligator defense" to explain why he guns down a
man in his own driveway. A 31-year-old dad fatally shoots a neighbor found lying in his driveway but swears to police he shot in self-defense. Why?
Because he says he believed the dead man was a full-grown alligator. As far as we can see, there`s no resemblance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Louisiana man claims he shot and killed someone who he thought was an alligator. Authorities say he shot the victim from a
kneeling position about 50 yards away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Newport. She goes to a Halloween costume party dressed as super-villain Poison Ivy from "Batman." Amidst the other party
ers she disappears, never seen again. Happening right now, police have found parts of a Halloween costume that may be connected to the
disappearance of Chelsea Bruck.
Let`s go straight out to Rob Davidek, news director at WWJ. Thanks so much for being with us. We`ve been on this since the get-go, Rob. Tell me,
where were the parts to the costume found?
ROB DAVIDEK, WWJ (via telephone): Nancy, this is in an abandoned industrial site area. It`s about 60 acres, overgrown, some hills, some
mounds of dirt. It`s a perfund site, really, contaminated with hazardous waste. The EPA has listed it for a possible clean-up because it poses a
health risk, really, to the environment, to humans. And that`s where the police were over the past couple of days. That`s where the focus of the
investigation was.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing the party. It was cram-packed with up to 500 to 600 people. There you see Chelsea in the distance. Now, take a
look. You`re seeing video of a previous Pickax Preacher (ph) concert Chelsea attended from YouTube.
Long story short, the party was mobbed. It was open to the public, but they never expected 500 to 600 people to show up. Well, they did. And
Chelsea goes to the party amidst all of these people, disappears. She went with some of her friend girls to the party. They saw her during the party.
At some point, they realize they don`t see her anymore. She`s never been seen again.
Now, this is the picture of what she looked like that night. We all know the supervillain Poison Ivy. It`s Batman`s nemesis, one of them. This is
not what she looks like in real life, but that`s what she looked like the night of the party.
In the last hours, happening now, police believe that they have found part of her Poison Ivy costume. Let`s see the map again, please, Justin.
That`s the costume -- the wig, the green ivy-leaf-covered skirt. She was wearing black yoga pants that night.
Look. It looks like quite a distance, but it`s only about an 11 to 14- minute drive from the party. And as you`re hearing Rob Davidek, news director WWJ, say it`s actually in a perfund area, which means it had been
polluted in the past and was ordered cleaned up by the U.S. government perfund law.
Back to you, Rob. Question. That night, nobody remembers seeing her actually leave from the party. But we`ve now had a lot of tips, a lot of
false tips that seemingly have muddled the search for Chelsea.
[20:05:12]But I want to go back to this location. It`s an old abandoned factory site, Rob?
DAVIDEK: Yes. Yes, that`s it. It`s a -- it`s by a Ford plant, a lot of railroad tracks in the area, almost like a loading yard for railroad
tracks. It`s a place that`s called Specialty Petroleum, an abandoned industrial site, about 60 acres -- you know, about 60 acres there that the
police -- they had to use ATVs, all-terrain vehicles, to search. They had helicopters in the air yesterday, you know, looking and searching that
area.
GRACE: Everybody, we are looking for Chelsea Bruck, who went missing dressed as Poison Ivy. And what`s so disturbing about it is that people
may have seen her but not realizing it`s Chelsea because she was wearing this Poison Ivy get-up with a wig and everything!
Another question to you, Rob Davidek joining us. The search has just now turned up what we believe to be part of a Poison Ivy costume. To my
understanding, it`s the green leafy part that they think that they have found?
DAVIDEK: You know what? The cops aren`t saying anything at this point as to specifically what was found. The leafy part is what we`re hearing. We
haven`t confirmed that. They had other evidence also that they found. They took it. They sent it to the Michigan State Police...
GRACE: Hold on! Hold on! We`re showing a shot of it, and it is an artificial green leaf that matches up to her costume. Now, what does it
mean? Does it mean her costume was taken off her body? Does it mean she was there and she shed a part of her costume just by sitting there? It
doesn`t make sense to me, Rob Davidek -- let`s look at the map again -- that she would be in this abandoned factory area, part of a perfund clean-
up, for casual reasons. I don`t think she would choose to go there. Let`s see the map.
Rob Davidek, does anybody go there for any reason?
DAVIDEK: As of this point, no. We can`t really say -- you know, a couple of neighborhoods nearby. But it looks like it`s pretty abandoned, maybe a
couple trails here and there, but it doesn`t look like anybody really spends much time there.
GRACE: Now, it`s interesting to me, there are active train tracks nearby, active in the sense that -- is that a commuter train? Is it a cargo train?
What is that train track nearby, Rob?
DAVIDEK: It`s -- as I look at it, it`s like a loading yard, a number of (ph), and it`s not surprising with a Ford plant nearby, right? You`re
going to have trains coming in. It would be more freight, not an Amtrak passenger train, something like that. It would be more freight in that
area.
GRACE: I just don`t see why she would be there for innocent reasons.
To Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist joining me tonight. Dr. Morrone, thanks for being with us. You have seen so many homicides, Dr.
Morrone. What if any evidence can we get off of that piece of what appears to be Chelsea`s Poison Ivy outfit?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The most important thing is that the closer the clothes are to her body, the more likely we are to find
bodily fluids or DNA. So we have to find the leotards. We have to find the undergarments. We have to find the socks and the shoes and anything
around the head.
And the reason why this is coming out now is, in this area across the Great Lakes, this has all been under two or three feet of snow for the last six
months. That`s good news. This is why this is good news. It`s like all the DNA and all the fluids have been put in the refrigerator until now. So
that`s good news for the investigation and for the state forensics lab, good luck.
GRACE: Well, let me tell you, Dr. Morrone, if you`ll re call the case of Chandra Levy, who was actually bound by her leotards -- her body was found
there in Rock Creek Park in the D.C. area years after she was attacked and killed -- Chandra Levy, the congressional intern to Condit. And her
leotards were still intact and still had bodily fluids on them years later. Explain.
MORRONE: That`s because they dehydrate, and basically, over time, they just lose water. So the proteins, as long as they don`t break down -- and
they`re not going break down in this short of time because the snow and the cold weather was, like, keeping it all in the refrigerator. It`s a sine
qua non event that the refrigeration and the cold weather are going to work to preserve the DNA and bodily fluids -- sine qua non event.
GRACE: Yes, thanks for Latin, Dr. Morrone. I believe we`ve talked about that before.
Everybody, you`re seeing video from a previous Pickax Preacher concert Chelsea attended on YouTube.
[20:10:02]Joining me right now, special guest Mike Williams, who actually hosted the party where Chelsea vanishes into thin air. Mike Williams,
thanks for being with us. How did the party get so out of control? I know it was not your plan.
MIKE WILLIAMS, HALLOWEEN PARTY HOST (via telephone): The party -- I mean, I was expecting a large amount of people at the party, I mean, as always,
when I throw these large, extravagant concerts. But I mean, it got out of hand to the point where people started parking on the street. But I
managed to clean that up in a matter of couple hours and managed to get everything mostly under control, you know, for the most part.
GRACE: Did you see Chelsea Bruck there?
WILLIAMS: I did not see her at the party, no.
GRACE: You know, a lot of people have said they didn`t see her. How do you know her?
WILLIAMS: She came to previous parties. She came to shows, too. She came to our CD release show back in May. And she was a fan of the band.
GRACE: And when did you find out, you know, after this party, that she vanished?
WILLIAMS: I found out Monday morning around probably 7:00 AM.
GRACE: How did you find out?
WILLIAMS: Her sister messaged me on Facebook and asked me if I`d seen her, or knew of her whereabouts, and I had no idea. And as the day went on, it
escalated, and then that`s when about 5:00 or 6:00, I, you know, became, like, a really big concern and something -- and we knew something had
happened.
GRACE: Everyone, with me is the guy who hosted the party where hundreds of people showed up. They were expecting a lot of people, but not that many
people. Take a look at the type of party that was going on that night with this group, Pickax Preacher.
With me, Mike Williams. So question. You knew her from previous parties. Tell me about the Halloween party. What was it like? How could she vanish
and nobody notice, Mike Williams?
WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, once again, we`ve mentioned that everyone was in costume, and there was also a lot of people I didn`t even know who came to
the party who know the band but don`t know me personally. So you know, it`s just -- it`s just a bad situation.
GRACE: Everyone, is there a break in the case finally in the search for Chelsea Bruck? She goes to the party dressed as Poison Ivy, Batman`s
nemesis. Even if people saw her, they may not be able to identify her because she`s wearing this Poison Ivy costume, complete with wig.
In the last hours, happening now, police have just discovered what they believe to be a portion of her Poison Ivy costume about 15 miles away at an
abandoned factory. What does it mean?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:13]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was dressed as the Poison Ivy character from "Batman."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forensic analysts are now examining clothing and other evidence discovered at this abandoned building and 60-acre site. Their
goal is to find clues in the disappearance of Chelsea Bruck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing from a giant costume party.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kindhearted and sweet and innocent person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Imagine your daughter going to a Halloween party dressed as Poison Ivy, to have a good time. You never see her again. That`s exactly what
happened to the family of the Chelsea Bruck.
But tonight, is there finally a crack in the case? Happening now, police believe that they have found a portion of a Poison Ivy outfit. It`s about
13 miles away, where this huge monster party was held. It looks to be a leaf off of the Poison Ivy costume. We`ve got a picture of that for you.
To Rob Davidek, news director, WWJ. I want to go through what happened that night. So who does she go to the party with, Rob?
DAVIDEK: She went with a couple of girlfriends.
GRACE: And what happened during the party? How did they get separated from her?
DAVIDEK: From what I understand, she met a guy and she was -- you know, the friends wanted to go. She went with this guy, who -- they were seen by
some cars, and she gave her friend that she went there with her phone and her purse. And then that was the last anyone seems to see of her.
GRACE: That`s crazy. Why would she give away her phone and her purse?
Do we have a sketch of the guy, Justin, that we can put up? It`s a very rough, a very rudimentary sketch of who she may have been with, somebody
that she was just talking to. But in a party of 500 people, just because she talked to him doesn`t mean she left with him.
Rob, did they say she left with this guy or they saw her with this guy?
DAVIDEK: They (sic) were just seen with the guy. They were walking towards some cars, but then no one knows what happened after that.
GRACE: You`re seeing a previous Pickax Preacher concert Chelsea attended from YouTube. That`s who`s playing at the party that night. Amidst all of
these party goers, she disappears.
Let`s see that aerial shot, please, Justin, of the floor (ph) plan (ph) -- specialty restoration. Take a look at that. And if you see, that`s over
on the left, the abandoned property. Police got a search warrant for that based on a tip. This investigation has been muddled with false tips, false
claims. Every one has been investigated. This is the first big break in finding Chelsea.
But question to you, Rob Davidek. What`s on the other side of the train tracks? Let`s see the aerial again, please. What`s on the other side of
the train tracks?
[20:20:06]DAVIDEK: Well, again, it`s a vacant area, abandoned. And then again, to the northwest, you see some neighborhoods. You have the freeway,
I-75, and pretty much, it`s straight, you know, south from where this is at, where the search was. If you go south down -- you know, like you said,
11, 12, 14 miles down, it`s just in that area of where they`re searching. So you have the Ford, the Mazda north operations plant to the southeast,
some railroad tracks, and then to the northwest, you have neighborhoods in that area.
GRACE: Rob, what do you know about the tip that led police to this spot?
DAVIDEK: Really, you know what? It just came in as that, right, a tip that they`re following up on. They said they`ve been following up on more
than 600 tips, and that was one of them, and so they moved forward with it.
GRACE: OK, let me see that aerial one more time. Stacey Newman, a point I`m getting at is, across the train tracks from where this restoration
plant is, specialty restoration, a Ford plant -- to the right of it, northeast of it, see that community?
Now, who would think about this abandoned Ford plant? Who would think to go there? Somebody familiar with it, somebody that knows about it, knows
nobody will be around, know they`re safe there if they want to be up to trouble.
Who lives in that community? What is that community, Stacey Newman?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we know it`s been abandoned and this plant has been abandoned for 50 years. But we did locate that. Close
to this area, there is a mobile park community. And a neighbor that lives there has said if you want to get to this area where this clothing was
found, you would have to know that spot. So it can`t just be a stranger who stumbled onto it. They knew where that was.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:52]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s Chelsea Bruck? The 22-year-old last reportedly seen at a huge Halloween party held in this rural area of
Newport.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Too big of a party, too dangerous. I even told her it was dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Acting on a tip, during a two-day search here at Freeland (ph) and Peters (ph) in Flat Rock, state police and deputies able
to collect clothing and other evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Who called in that tip? This is an investigation that has been muddled with false tips from the get-to.
Rob Davidek, people have -- news director WWJ -- what are some of the false tips that the police have been chasing?
DAVIDEK: Well, Nancy, there were a couple of cases that actually -- where -- you know, where there were charges in them. There was one lady out of
Toledo, Ohio. She was charged with lying to a police officer. She said that her ex-boyfriend had killed Chelsea and dumped her body in a cemetery.
There was another, a 19-year-old from the Flat Rock area where this search is going on -- he was charged with lying to a police officer. He says he
saw two men harassing her and drive off with her. So those are the two that they`re trying to find out. They also said, You know what? A lot of
people were drunk at this party, so they don`t know it`s reliable information that they have coming from these folks.
GRACE: Whoa, 136 registered sex offenders in a very tight proximity, just 8-mile radius!
Where is Chelsea tonight? Is there finally a break? I`m very, very curious. Who called in the tip? Who knew? Why would anybody be looking
out there, why would anybody be there on a perfund area, highly polluted, that`s been ordered by the government to be cleaned up of its toxic
ingredients?
To Mike Williams, who hosted the party. Mike, how was the party advertised? Who were you aiming at? Who was invited to the party? How
did they find out about it?
WILLIAMS: It was advertised through Facebook and our band page and just social media. I mean, that`s how I advertise any event that the band does.
GRACE: So thousands of people, thousands knew about the party. There is a $30,000 reward. Tip line, 734-240-7530.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:32:18] GRACE: Live Charlotte, North Carolina. The neighbor from hell. Allegedly parades naked at his front door several times a week for years.
But cops refuse to arrest him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERARD LEEPER, NAKED NEIGHBOR: Because I got nothing but love inside of me. For anybody. I would not stand outside my door naked. And no one has
a picture of me standing outside of my door. What they have is a picture with exclusion of inclusion.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: He`s the man convinced a wrong was done to him.
LEEPER: The picture is not on the front porch. It is inside my home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. This guy has been parading naked in front of an entirely clear storm door for years. He has a rap sheet as long as the interstate
for such activity. But now police refuse to arrest him saying it is not against the law. But hold on there is another shot. Let me see the
basketball shot. There he is on his front door. Looks like he`s talking on the phone. Look he`s not in his house. He is outside naked.
Cleve Wootson is joining us from the Charlotte Observer. Cleve, thank you for being with us. Have you looked at this guy`s rap sheet? Indecent
exposure for ten years. He`s got eight to 10 entries on his rap sheet.
CLEVE WOOTSON, JR., REPORTER, THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER: Uh-mm. Uh-mm. I have looked at his rap sheet. Yes, he has been arrested several times for
indecent exposure. The problem is when he goes to court he gets off on it.
GRACE: But I don`t understand that. What`s happening Cleve?
WOOTSON: Well, North Carolina`s indecent exposure law says that basically you can`t be naked in public. And because this guy is inside of his house,
inside of his girlfriend`s house, he doesn`t violate the law.
GRACE: You know, I think it`s the definition of what "in public" means. Because there he is walking around naked outside. Let me see an aerial
shot of his neighborhood.
Unleash the lawyers. Randall Kessler, defense Attorney in Atlanta, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney out of Miami. Okay. You guys might be
laughing into your fists about this. But if you have a little girl like I do and I`m in a cul-de-sac, I have to ride -- look at that. People have to
go by his house to get out onto the street. All right. If you drive your little seven-year-old child past that every morning and there he is parked
with all of his genitals on full display and he`s never arrested? See, I believe that the correct interpretation of the law -- and I`ve got the law
right here. You have to be in a public place and in the presence of other people. To me when you are exposing yourself to the public, even though
you are standing behind your door, same thing. Randy Kessler.
RANDALL KESSLER, ATLANTA DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. You can argue however you want. But the bottom-line is, don`t look and don`t take your kid that way
and you have a right to be naked in your house. If you can`t be naked in your house, where can you be naked?
GRACE: I`m not talking about being naked in your house. I`m talking Hugo Rodriguez about intentionally flashing -- do you think that is a
coincidence?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, MIAMI DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Why do you look? If somebody doesn`t want to watch your show they turn it off. They don`t have to
watch. The women don`t have to look. Children don`t have to look.
GRACE: What about the children?
RODRIGUEZ: You don`t have to parade --
GRACE: What about people who don`t know he`s going to be there and they look over and see him?
RODRIGUEZ: We protect our children many other different ways. That is his castle. He is not in publicly regardless of what your legal
interpretation.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What about him and the backyard?
(CROSSTALK)
RODRIGUEZ: Well, I don`t know if North Carolina law covers -- hey, listen, I don`t know if North Carolina law covers curtilage but I can tell you,
it`s not public if he`s in his backyard. That`s not the legal definition - - we may not like it but he`s not violating the law.
GRACE: You know, what? That is complete bs and that is not the spirit of the law. They are misinterpreting public place because he is flashing the
public and has been doing it since the `90s and he gets away with it.
OK. Clark Goldband, what more do we know?
CLARK GOLDBAND, HLN PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, law enforcement has responded to the home four times within the last year. Here is the deal though.
Authorities do not have police reports because they say no crime has taken place. And despite however many neighbors call law enforcement police say
their hands are tied. Nancy, I`ve read this law and it says willfully expose the private part of his or her person in any public place and in the
presence of others. So apparently unless those two elements can be shown no crime has been taken place.
[20:37:06] GRACE: But in my mind public place doesn`t necessarily mean out in the middle of town square. It means where the public can view you. A
public place. And you know what? Why doesn`t he get a storm door? Why does he have a storm door that is completely transparent?
To now, Gibson (ph), psychotherapist, now -- what is this guy, why is he doing this?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: He`s doing this because obviously he isn`t highly functioning. He has a problem --
GRACE: Okay. Why though? What do you get out of flashing women and flashing young girls? A lot of them children on the way to school. What
is the sexual arousal in that?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I think that there is an attachment between him performing this compulsion. It`s a compulsive behavior and becoming
sexually aroused so it fulfills the compulsion that he`s having.
GRACE: Okay. You know what? Mark Harold, former police officer joining me out of D.C. This guy is flashing the public. Including children. You
know, Mark Harold, the children in the neighborhood, what do they call him? What is his moniker in the neighborhood? It`s wee wee man. Wee wee man.
OK, Mark Harold, what can we do?
MARK HAROLD, FORMER POLICE OFFICER (on the phone): Well, at this point it looks like the Senate bill may close the loophole. But this has been going
on long enough. Where the police officer is most likely of either learned from the prosecutor`s office that has been told by the supervisors, listen,
we`ve ran down this course, we`ve been out there and it`s not breaking a law. That`s what we`re going with. And you know, you have to tread
lightly when you have been told that ahead of time that it`s not breaking a law. Will the Senate bill close the loophole? Most likely or probably
(INAUDIBLE) but for now it`s a bad situation.
GRACE: Okay. To Cleve Wootson, Jr., Charlotte Observer. Please explain to me why flashing the public, walking around in your yard completely naked
is okay in Charlotte, North Carolina. When children are passing. They have seen his naked penis so many times they call him the wee wee man.
WOOTSON: Well the issue is not the yard necessarily. The issue is that he`s inside that storm door. It is clear. You know, you can see in the
picture, he is sitting inside, he`s standing inside of his house. And as long as he`s there the law is sort of on his side.
GRACE: Well Cleve we`ve got a photo of him in his backyard clearly seen from the front of his house. If you could show that photo of him outside
of his house. There he is. What? How`s that okay? Cleve, how is that okay?
WOOTSON: Well what police say is they need some sort of evidence or Gerard Leeper has denied that it is him. But what police have said is that there
maybe --
GRACE: He denied it was him --
WOOTSON: -- prosecute him if he`s exhibiting himself in such a way that he can be seen. But ultimately that has to go to the court.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:44:13] GRACE: Live to Cajun country. It is the first time ever a murder suspect uses the quote alligator defense to explain why he guns down
a man in his own driveway. A 31-year-old dad fatally shoots a neighbor found lying in his driveway. But swears to police he shot in self-defense
because he believes the dead man was a full grown alligator. As far as we can see there is no resemblance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: A Louisiana man who shot and killed a local resident near his home claims he thought the guy was actually an alligator. The
alleged shooter gave multiple stories to police about what happened, including that the victim was crawling towards him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That the victim was crawling towards him? Michelle Southern, assistant news director for Louisiana Radio Network. Michelle, I don`t
understand, how can the dead victim be confused for an alligator?
MICHELLE SOUTHERN, ASSISTANT NEWS DIRECTOR, LOUISIANA RADIO NETWORK (on the phone): Well one of the claims he made was that he believes that he saw a
shadowy figure in the driveway and that his dad had recently told him that there was an alligator on their property and that it had been in a culvert
and that he saw it, thought it was an alligator and he wanted to shoot it.
GRACE: That is total b.s. Do you know why? Because his first story was that he yelled out to the alligator, hey, watch out I`m going to shoot if
you don`t leave. What he was telling the alligator to watch out, he was going to shoot Michelle?
SOUTHERN: Well, the first story that he told officers was that it was crawling and that ye he was yelling out to it --
GRACE: Yes. Hold on. Hold on. He was yelling. Matt Zarrell, what was he yelling at the alligator?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (on the phone): Yes. He told police, he said, hey, don`t know this is private property. He said he got no
response and then he said --
GRACE: Oh, oh, so the alligator didn`t say anything back?
ZARRELL: Yes. Correct. And then he said that if you don`t tell me who you are I`m going to call the cops and claims that the man or alligator
never said a word.
GRACE: So when the alligator didn`t respond he gunned him down. Isn`t it true he had a scope on his weapon?
ZARRELL: Yes. Not only he had a scope, it was a magnifying scope. He shot from 50 yards away in a kneeling position.
GRACE: Okay. What tops it all other than the alligator defense is that a jury is actually deadlocked. This went to a jury trial and this Cajun
jury, deadlocked. Half of the jury believed the guy thought it was an alligator.
Okay. Grey Stafford joining me, excuse me. Dr. Grey Stafford, Director of Conservation of the Wildlife World Zoo. Grey Stafford, of course the
alligator didn`t -- is that alive?
DR. GREY STAFFORD, DIRECTOR OF CONSERVATION, WILDLIFE WORLD ZOO: It is. It is. And as you can see it is motionless. Because generally alligators
don`t do a lot of moving unless they are lunging for prey animal.
GRACE: Okay. Turn it this way please if you can without attacking the camera.
STAFFORD: Sure.
GRACE: Okay. Let`s see that in full please. So Grey, what do you make of this guy`s story that he believed this victim, Shawn Galjour whose shot to
the head dead. What do you think --
STAFFORD: It doesn`t hold water, Nancy. And I`ll tell you why. I want to turn it sideways again to show you. Look at where its eyes are located.
At the very top of his head. Alligators have a feature in their eyes called depitum (ph) which humans do not have. And what that basically
means is, there is a reflective surface on the back of their eye which helps them see under very low light conditions. So, if this gentlemen was
able to see a profile and see this alligator, he would have seen a bright spotlight where this eye is located and I can`t imagine he could have
mistaken that for a human being.
GRACE: Now, the thing is he also had a scope Dr. Grey Stafford. A scope. Which as you know, magnifies whatever you see, and he could see well enough
that he shot the guy on the first round. So he obviously could see what he was doing. So what do you make of this defense that he gunned down the
victim because he thought it was an alligator?
STAFFORD: Well, again, it doesn`t make any sense. And again there is no forehead on this alligator. His eyes were on top of its head. And so even
if he thought it was a human being, there is the whole structure of the face and the head. Look at the long snout. The nose is way down here at
the end. And so, I just have a really difficult time believing that this person could pull off a shot like that and not see some of these fine
details in this alligator.
GRACE: Not only did he -- could you turn it back towards the camera again, please?
STAFFORD: Sure.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, not only did he shoot him with the first round. Shot him in the head.
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: He killed a guy who was like 50 yards away from him. Posing no threat whatsoever. And on his third story, he says oh yes. It was self-
defense. I thought it was an alligator. I`ve never heard such b.s. The victim is dead Matt Zarrell.
[20:49:30] ZARRELL: Yes and not only that, Nancy. But investigators say that the victim was on his back the entire time. Was unarmed and pose no
threat. They called it a senseless murder.
GRACE: What was the weapon Matt? What was the weapon that was used?
ZARRELL: It was a browning rifle with a Leopold magnifying scope from 50 yards away, shot in the head.
GRACE: One shot. In the head. The guy is dead. Immediately. Defense? I thought it was an alligator. That is right up there with the dog ate my
homework and what is confounding is the jury actually mistried on this thing, the guy is not convicted, all right? Please prosecutors, do not
give this guy a chief plea. Take him back to trial. This is cold-blooded murder. Come on.
Unleash the lawyers. Randall Kessler, Hugo Rodriguez. All right. Kessler --
KESSLER: Yes.
GRACE: I thought it was an alligator? You ever heard of that one?
KESSLER: You know, you get the right to be judged by the jury of your peers and those jurors apparently knows about alligators and they`re not
that in common down there, so they thought it was reasonable. You have to convince them that there`s no way --
GRACE: Have you spent much time in Cut Off, Louisiana? How did you know?
KESSLER: I grew up in North Orleans? You bet. A lot of alligators down in Louisiana.
GRACE: Let me tell you something, I`m no stranger to Cajun Country myself and I believe the same U.S. constitution applies there. I see you wiggling
around, Hugo Rodriguez. And you can tell me, there are alligators as much as you want to, there`s alligators throughout the southeast. That doesn`t
mean just because alligators are in your region that you have carte blanche to gunned somebody down, shoot him in the head dead in your driveway and on
your third story, Hugo, come up with an alligator defense.
RODRIGUEZ: Let me see if I understand this right. What time of the day did this happen, Nancy?
GRACE: At night.
RODRIGUEZ: 4:00 a.m. in the morning? 4:00 a.m. in the morning, he screams out. This is private property. He screams out again. There`s no
response. Unfortunately, there was a man laying in his driveway which he thought could have been an alligator and he shoots the alligator. I don`t
see the issue and some of the jurors didn`t see an issue either.
GRACE: Okay. Matt Zarrell, just tell me the three different stories.
ZARRELL: Sure. Okay, so the first story is that the victim was rolling towards him and the shooter called out to him but he didn`t respond. Story
number two, the victim never moved but he could have been someone rubbing his grandparents` house or he was doing harm in the neighborhood. Story
number three, the victim was not a human being, he was actually an alligator.
GRACE: And look at this shot right here. Randall Kessler, Hugo Rodriguez, I hope you can see this shot. Did I mention to you that the shooter was
high on meth? He`s high as a kite on methamphetamine, did cocaine for four hours, you all know, voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is not a defense.
KESSLER: That`s absolutely true but the truth of the matter is, he tried to warn whoever it was.
GRACE: He was high on meth.
KESSLER: And an alligator would not answer. An alligator didn`t answer. He was testing it to make sure it wasn`t a person. That might help his
defense.
GRACE: So he shot it?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:56:49] UNIDENTIFIED MAN: A Louisiana man claims he shot and killed someone who he thought was an alligator. Authorities say he shot the
victim from a kneeling position about 50 yards away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And believe it or not, just to add insult to injury, a jury actually mistried on this. The perpetrator in this case, in his home, gets
a high-powered rifle with a scope on it. It`s a perfect shot. He guns down his neighbor who is in the man`s driveway, shoots him in the head.
The third story he tells, he claims it was an alligator. Took him three stories to get that out. The alleged perp, also convicted of stealing
diesel fuel, a chainsaw and copper. Okay.
Okay. Grey Stafford, you`ve greased us with an actual alligator today. But what about to you, Joe Schrank, interventionist, founder of Rebound
Brooklyn, the fact that this guy had been doing meth and cocaine for about 36 hours before the shooting?
JOE SCHRANK, INTERVENTIONIST (on the phone): Amphetamine abuse can produce psychosis. So, if you believe it`s an alligator, it`s entirely possible.
There can be auditory hallucinations, visual hallucinations. It also means to -- Louisiana is a stand your ground state. I don`t understand the laws.
If you shoot somebody on your property, whether he thought it was an alligator or not, is that a defense? I have no idea. This whole thing is
crazy.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing shots from Rehab.com. You can see there in the full video, and faces of drug and meth. This is what meth does to
you. So Michelle Southern, assistant youth director, so Michelle, the jury actually hung on this? I can`t believe it. Voluntary use of
methamphetamine or cocaine or alcohol is not a defense that you thought it was an alligator.
SOUTHERN: The jury deliberated two-and-a-half hours afterwards. It came back nine to three and the state of Louisiana, 10 of 12 must agree to
convict in Louisiana, so it was declared a mistrial.
GRACE: I`m calling for Cajun justice tonight. This guy has got to go back on trial and there`s got to be a guilty verdict and I stand corrected by my
producer, Matt Zarrell, he was not convicted of stealing diesel fuel chainsaw and copper. He`s accused of it.
All right. Grey, you can put the alligator away. Thank you.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Marine Sergeant Justin Walsh, 24, Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, loved football,
saxophone and singing. Parents Terry and Jim, brother James II, sister Heather. Justin Walsh, American hero. Drew is up next. I`ll see you
tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
