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Nancy Grace
Arizona Cop Mows Man Down Intentionally. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired April 15, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Live to Arizona. Shocking video emerging showing Arizona police intentionally running down a suspect,
plowing him down on the street, using the police cruiser to intentionally run the man down. It`s all caught on video. We have the video.
It`s graphic. It`s violent. But this is what they won`t tell you. Bombshell tonight. The guy he mows down in a string of violent crimes the
whole day, a one-man crime wave. Last stop, to Walmart to steal this gun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t want to do this. You don`t want to do this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s worse is officers try to talk to suspect down. A man and his child pull up to police, telling them the suspect
poses no threat, that the gun he just stole has a trigger lock on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s locked. He can`t get the lock off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, never mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Love-crazed or gun-crazed? Was Shayna Hubers a love-crazed woman who couldn`t let go of her boyfriend, or was Ryan Poston a gun-crazed
lawyer who snapped under the pressure of a high-powered job? Twenty-nine- year-old Poston found dead on his marble floor of the dining room in his upscale home, six bullet wounds to the face, arm, chest.
Twenty-four-year-old Shayna Hubers says she shoots in self-defense, but police say she shoots in cold blood, that Poston wanted out, to stop
the sex and dating with Shayna Hubers, but she wouldn`t take no for an answer. In the last hours, we obtain police interrogation video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I have a -- I killed my boyfriend in self-defense!
(INAUDIBLE) I gave him his nose job that he wanted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Ma`am, I don`t know what they`ll do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Arizona, shocking video emerging showing Arizona police intentionally running down a suspect, plowing him down on
the street, using the police cruiser to intentionally run the guy down. It`s all caught on video. We have the video.
It`s graphic. It`s violent. But this is what they won`t tell you. The guy the cop mows down has been in a string of violent crimes the whole
day. I`m talking setting fire to a church. I`m talking home invasion. Last stop, Walmart, where he steals this gun then goes on a rampage.
Tonight, defense attorneys calling for the cop`s head. I disagree.
Straight out to Som Lisaius, investigative reporter, KOLD. First, let`s see the video. Liz, roll it in full, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus Christ, man down!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) stand off. Stand off. The gun is loaded. Unit on (INAUDIBLE) stay off!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh! Oh! OK. Now, before you judge the police officer, this guy has a loaded weapon he just stole from Walmart. He`s already done a
home invasion. He has already stolen -- broken -- armed robbery with some type of a weapon in 7-Eleven. Now, he goes into Walmart. Look, he`s on
surveillance video. He steals the rifle.
Now, I want you to hear also Candace Trunzo and Som Lisaius. Listen to what happened right before -- Oh, man! OK, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got -- it`s locked. He can`t get the lock off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, never mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So just before the guy starts firing his weapon, he`s headed into a very highly populated, densely populated and business area with a
loaded gun. These guys run up to the cop and go, It`s got a lock on it. He cannot fire it. He cannot fire it.
Let`s hear that again, Liz. And there he goes firing the rifle. The cop saying, Are you sure? Are you sure? They go, yes, yes, he can`t fire
it. Boom! The guy racks it and fires.
[20:05:03]Let`s hear it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) unit (INAUDIBLE) stand off! Stand off! The gun is loaded! Unit (INAUDIBLE) stay off!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man down!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got -- it`s locked. He can`t get the lock off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, never mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, "Never mind" is right. To Som Lisaius, investigative reporter, KOLD. What happened? This guy, it`s a one-man crime wave. He
robbed a 7-Eleven. He set fire to a church. He did a home invasion. Of course the cop ran him down!
SAM LISAIUS, KOLD CORRESPONDENT: Well, this guy is certainly accused of a whole host of crimes leading up to this very dramatic video that
happened a little bit earlier in the day within the city limits of Tucson, three separate cases, an armed robbery, a church fire and a home invasion.
He actually stole a vehicle during the course of that home invasion, drove it about 20 miles north to the small community of Marana, which is north of
Tucson.
That`s where he went into the Walmart. He forced his way in, essentially. He told the clerk that -- he demanded to see a 30-30, a lever
action 30-30 that he knew he would be able to pull the trigger lock from because it`s a lever action.
He pulled that out. He had it in his hand, and he demanded (INAUDIBLE) ammunition out of a glass case. Despite protocol, which would
actually require the clerk to ask a few more questions, especially if she`s a little bit hesitant about the actions of this guy, he intimidated her.
He told her that he was going to...
GRACE: OK, wait! Wait!
LISAIUS: ... bust through the glass...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! So he forces the clerk at Walmart to give him the ammo?
LISAIUS: Yes.
GRACE: Well, didn`t they call the police right then and there?
LISAIUS: I believe she did notify one of her superiors. There was a phone call that I can see in the surveillance video. I don`t know exactly
what she`s saying, but she`s obviously at odds. And she knows that this is probably a potentially dangerous situation, but does she try to stall.
During that stalling increment, basically, that`s when he goes over to the encasement and tries to, or at least threatens to bust out the glass
with the butt of the gun. She realizes that this guy is probably pretty hasty (ph). He`s going to do that.
She doesn`t want the mess in the store. I know that sounds terrible, but that`s what I`m hearing. She doesn`t want the mess in the store. So
she...
GRACE: Right.
LISAIUS: ... opens up for him and hands him the ammunition.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, defense lawyer Peter Odom out of D.C. and Robert Schalk, defense attorney out of New York.
All right, Peter Odom, take a look. Look! He`s holding himself hostage, Peter. Look!
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE) video.
GRACE: He`s daring the cops. He`s got a loaded rifle...
ODOM: I`ve seen the video.
GRACE: ... at his throat, the cop`s saying, You don`t want to do that. You don`t want to do that. Put it down. Put it down. Boy, that
Fedex guy had no idea how close he came to getting shot.
So long story short, tonight, the defense bar is demanding that the cop be indicted. Why? Why should he?
ODOM: Nancy, what I`m seeing in that video is a police officer, with all his colleagues telling him to back off, driving his car apparently at
full speed into an area behind which he does not know what is there, and ramming a suspect that`s walking away from him.
And I tend to side with Don Vignino (ph), a former CIA Secret Service agent, who says that this officer really just violated the continuum of
force. He just went right to deadly force. That`s where his...
GRACE: Oh, really?
ODOM: That`s where his vulnerability is.
GRACE: Really, Peter? Where you`ve got this guy, Mario Valencia, with a loaded rifle, shooting up in the air after he`s already committed a
string of violent crimes? And Schalk...
ODOM: The officer didn`t know that.
GRACE: I see you, Schalk -- the officer does know he`s firing a rifle in the air, headed toward...
ODOM: In the air, Nancy.
GRACE: ... a group of -- yes, he did!
ODOM: In the air.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. And if I saw a guy...
(CROSSTALK)
ODOM: ... that officer. At the time, he was walking away.
GRACE: Well, in case you recall...
ODOM: Thank goodness there`s a video showing it.
GRACE: ... Peter Odom -- in case you recall, when you were a prosecutor, before you became a defense lawyer, you thought it was great
that police were there to protect and serve. They`re not there just to save their own skin, Peter Odom. If that guy had been walking in my
neighborhood with my twins in the front yard with a loaded rifle, shooting -- and I see you, Schalk! I see you shaking your head...
ODOM: He mowed him...
GRACE: ... yes, yes, yes...
ODOM: He mowed him down, Nancy.
GRACE: ... to everything Peter Odom says. Why...
ODOM: He mowed down a man who`s walking away from him.
GRACE: Why are you agreeing with him?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, what`s the difference if this police officer, whose colleagues are telling him to stand down and hold
back, had took out his gun and shot him in the back? It is the same equivalent as what he did of running him over with his car. He put him in
fear -- threat of death. It was excessive. It was not necessary. All they had to do was pull the car off the block, get out, draw weapons, and
if that individual takes a turn, then you can shoot him. I can justify that. I cannot justify this behavior.
GRACE: You know what? Joining me right now -- maybe this person can explain it to you two -- Chief Terry Rozema, the chief of the Marana Police
Department joining me from Arizona.
[20:10:04]Chief, thank you so much for being with us. You know, I guess when you leave prosecution and you leave law enforcement and become a
defense attorney, your world turns upside down, I guess, because if that guy were walking along in front of Peter Odom`s house in D.C. or Robert
Schalk`s place there in New York, firing a rifle in the air -- he`s already tried to set fire to a church. He`s already done an armed robbery on a 7-
Eleven, stolen a gun at Walmart. He`s firing in the air.
What choice did your man have?
CHIEF TERRY ROZEMA, MARANA POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, I`d like to -- I appreciate you having me, Nancy, and I`d like to clarify a couple hinges.
And this is, you know, misinformation on a number of fronts.
And that is the officer, as he`s getting commands to stand down and to stay back, he`s not referring to the officer behind him. He doesn`t even
know that officer is there.
Now, I obviously had the full benefit of reviewing the entire investigation. The gentlemen that are there with you don`t have that.
And so he`s not talking to the officer behind him. And the fact of the matter is, deadly force is warranted in this situation because the guy
is walking down the street. He`s disobeyed commands to put the gun down. He`s acting extremely erratic and behavior that is certainly a threat to
our community. And he`s walking right toward highly populated businesses that have 300 to 400 people.
GRACE: And the other thing...
ROZEMA: And you can`t allow...
GRACE: ... Chief -- with me, Chief Terry Rozema. Chief, this is nothing like Ferguson. This is nothing like Mr. Walter Scott, where the
person is unarmed. They have not committed a crime. They haven`t done anything wrong, and they`re shot. They`re shot dead.
That`s not what happened here. This guy has a loaded weapon. He is firing. He is firing. He has been a one-man crime wave the entire day.
And now he`s going for somebody else with a loaded gun.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:14]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone calls out to officers to tell them there`s nothing to worry about because there`s trigger lock on the
rifle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got -- it`s locked. He can`t get the lock off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But then the man fires into the air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) first time I saw the video, I went, Whoa! You know, Holy crap!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officer likely saved lives by taking action.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t allow him the opportunity to take somebody who`s in the parking lot hostage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, caught on tape, an Arizona police officer mows down a man. But catch (ph) it (ph). Did he have
another choice? I say no. This man, a one-man crime wave. He had already set a church on fire, done a home invasion, stolen a car, armed robbed a 7-
Eleven.
And I want to remind everybody -- unleash the lawyers, Robert Schalk and Peter Odom -- to you, Peter Odom. You two have just been corrected by
Chief Jerry Rozema. That`s not other officers telling the driver, the cop, to stand down.
ODOM: I want to ask the chief today...
GRACE: That is a police officer telling the man with the rifle, the perpetrator, to stand down. Another thing you two may not know, another
crime this guy committed that morning, Mario Valencia -- a father goes home to pick up his 11-year-old boy to take him to school. When he gets in
there, there is Mario Valencia with an 11-inch metal pipe, OK?
Home invasion. He`s in the home, ag assault on an 11-year-old boy. And you guys, instead of focusing on this guy walking in your neighborhood
-- somebody`s neighborhood -- firing a rifle and the cops begging him to put it down, you`re focusing on the cop. I don`t understand that, Peter
Odom!
ODOM: Will the chief say today that this officer did everything correctly and that he is not going to be disciplined in any way and that he
supports every one of his actions? Will he say that today on national TV?
GRACE: So you are not answering my question, but...
ODOM: You didn`t ask me a question, Nancy. You just...
GRACE: ... turning on...
ODOM: You gave me a speech, Nancy! You gave me a speech.
GRACE: You know what? I`ll go to you, Chief...
ODOM: You lectured me.
GRACE: ... Terry Rozema. I`d like to...
ODOM: Thank you.
GRACE: ... hear your answer.
ROZEMA: Sure. We have what`s called a special board of inquiry, which hasn`t completed its review and investigation. Unfortunately, this
incident has garnered national attention much quicker than we anticipated it would. And so the shooting board or the special board of inquiry will
conduct an entire review of this incident.
GRACE: You know, I`m sorry, Chief Terry Rozema. I -- I -- I think you`re speaking a different language because this guy had just ag assaulted
an 11-year-old boy with a four-foot metal pipe in his home. The father opens the door, and this guy`s in there with a metal pipe!
I -- I -- I don`t understand where anybody thinks the officer was wrong here. This guy is shooting a rifle that he just stole in Walmart in
a stolen car, tried to set a church on fire, ag assaulted an 11-year-old boy, for Pete`s sake, and this officer brought an end to it!
To Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com, Do I -- am I misunderstanding something, Candace?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM: No, you`re not, Nancy. I mean, this was a -- it was a day that was full of, you know, bad acts on the part of -
- on the part of Mr. Valencia.
And not only that, Mr. Valencia has a rap sheet as long as my two arms. He`s been convicted of drug charges, theft, shoplifting, criminal
trespass.
[20:20:03]So this guy who has a rifle, an armed -- a loaded rifle and shot it into the air, aimed it at a police officer -- I mean, there was
just no good that was going to come of this situation.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell. Can you tell me the facts surrounding the ag assault on the 11-year-old little boy?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes. So what happened was, is that the victim says that he went to come home to take his
son to school, and when he entered the house, he hears a male voice as he`s walking into the house, and he sees this man, Valencia, standing there,
holding a metal pole with both hands, swinging it around.
It`s four feet in length. It`s got some tape wrapped around it. He`s only wearing a T-shirt and boxers. And he says to the victim, Give me your
keys, and he takes the RAV-4 and he goes to Walmart.
GRACE: You know, to Som Lisaius, investigative reporter, KOLD. Candace Trunzo is right. The perp has a rap state as long as Interstate I-
75. However, in my mind, that doesn`t come into play here because it doesn`t matter what your past is. It matters what the cop`s action is at
that moment. But when you have a guy that you`re saying, Put down the gun, put down the gun, stand down, and instead, he shoots in the air in a
residential area? No!
LISAIUS: Well, I`ve heard from the defense attorney saying -- speaking on several occasions saying that there was no concerted effort to
negotiate or talk this man down.
We`ve seen several instances where officers did just that, saying, We don`t have to do this. Put the gun down, demanding him to put the gun
down. He didn`t do so. You also saw at the beginning of your show today the instance when the individual...
GRACE: You`re right.
LISAIUS: Say that again? I`m sorry?
GRACE: You`re right, Som Lisaius. So Peter Odom, Robert Schalk -- Peter, what do you want the cop to do, say, Pretty please with sugar on
top? Would you please not fire the rifle in a residential area anymore?
ODOM: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, to protect the community, I would - - at a minimum, I would have liked that officer to have known what was on the other side of that barricade because he couldn`t see it and he drove
right through it.
GRACE: You`re changing the topic again.
ODOM: And you know, he`s very -- I`m answering your question, Nancy. You asked...
GRACE: No, you`re not.
ODOM: ... a question.
GRACE: What did you want him to do?
ODOM: At a minimum, I`d like to have seen him find out what was on the other side of that.
GRACE: OK. So now it`s about what you can`t see on the other side of the wall. Robert Schalk...
ODOM: It`s about knowing your target -- it`s about knowing your target before you drive through a brick wall, Nancy.
GRACE: Let -- let me just...
ODOM: How many people did the officer endanger?
GRACE: Let me just tell you...
ODOM: You tell me that.
GRACE: I`m trying. Let me just tell you, if you will look at the video, you can see...
ODOM: I`ve seen it.
GRACE: ... very clearly what is in his line of fire. We don`t know what that guy is shooting at, either. You see exactly...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, cut his mike. You see exactly that there was a tree and a fence behind him. Robert Schalk, earlier, you and Peter were arguing he
should have been warned to put down his gun. They should have tried to negotiate with him. Som Lisaius just told you he did try to negotiate.
SCHALK: I said, Nancy -- no, what I said was there was multiple police officers there. They could have set up a perimeter, blocked the
street, surround him with police presence, not just have a rogue police officer come barreling around...
GRACE: Not a rogue police officer!
SCHALK: ... another officer and run the guy over. Nancy, if this officer had got out of the car and shot him in the back, would you justify
his actions? Yes or no?
GRACE: You know what? If that happened, I`d have to look at the scenario then. What I`ve got in front of me...
SCHALK: What`s the difference?
GRACE: ... right now...
SCHALK: What`s the difference?
GRACE: Well, number one, Mario Valencia is alive. To Chief Terry Rozema from Marana Police Department, I don`t like this cop being called a
rogue police officer. Isn`t it true, Chief, what Som Lisaius just said. Som said that the police officers tried to talk him into putting the weapon
down.
ROZEMA: Absolutely, that`s true, Nancy. And to get back to the point of the question about whether or not Officer Rapiejko did anything wrong,
the use of force is justified. There`s no doubt about that. In fact, deadly force is justified at this point.
To the point about what`s on the other side of the wall -- we did now what`s on the other side of the wall because we had officers down at the
other end. So all of this talk from the public defenders about, you know, the officer being rogue, the officer being outside of the boundaries --
that`s simply not the case.
He took a very calculated decision to end a threat that was a threat to our community, to hundreds of people in that area as they come and go
from the businesses. He could have taken a shot. To set a perimeter around him with vehicles -- the guy had a high-powered rifle. You can`t do
that. That`s ridiculous!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:23]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... as the suspect then swings the gun directly toward the patrol car. Good news is, surrounding businesses are
locked down, thanks to officers and 911 personnel who get the word out immediately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mario Valencia was reportedly taken to the hospital in serious condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An armed suspect who had just stolen a rifle and a box of ammunition from a local Walmart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police chief says he was cleared (ph) without any injuries and released into police custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This guy a one-man crime wave, from an ag assault on an 11- year-old little boy in the boy`s own home to trying to set a church on fire, armed robbery of a -- Ow! -- 7-Eleven. Finally, when the officer
could not talk him into putting his loaded rifle down, he discharges it again in the air, and the officer mows him down.
I want to go to Matthew Horace, law enforcement, security expert, senior VP of FJC Security. Matthew, tell me, do you think his actions was
justified -- actions were justified?
MATTHEW W. HORACE, LAW ENFORCEMENT, SECURITY EXPERT: Well, Nancy, while this does demonstrate a rather unconventional use of force and it may
appear as thought it violates the continuum of force, this gentleman was a walking crime wave, and the police knew they had to stop his actions now.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on! Hold on, Matthew! You`re talking Greek to me. What are you saying, continuum of force? I mean, the guy`s
got a loaded, high-powered 30-30 that he hand-picked and stole from Walmart.
HORACE: Yes, Nancy. He had to be stopped now. And keep in mind two key factors here. Number one, the officer placed himself in danger.
GRACE: Yes, he did.
HORACE: ... by making the arrest in this way. Number two, they knew that they could not let Mr. Valencia keep walking down the street. And I
pose the question, what if a school were two blocks down the street? They knew there was a large population of people, and they needed to stop him
from committing further crimes. I think Mr. Valencia is in a better place now than he would have been had a gun battle ensued.
GRACE: Agree, Matthew. Robert Schalk, Peter Odom and Chief Terry Rozema, all right, Peter, I heard you. I heard you. The chair, the chief
heard you and he`s answered your question. Cops were surrounding the area and they could see what was on the other side of that wall. Now what are
you going to argue?
ODOM: And the chief is saying they communicated that to the officer? And as your last expert just said, with all due respect to my esteemed
colleague, it does appear, as I said at the very first, he violated the continuum of force. He went right from zero to trying to kill him.
GRACE: That`s not true. That`s not true. Many, many times, Chief Rozema, he asked the guy to put the rifle down. The guy was holding the
rifle up to his own face for a moment. And he was begging him to take it down.
ODOM: Went from zero --
GRACE: He did not. He negotiated with this guy. Can you not see? Look. Caught on video. And let me tell you something, a gun, a gun, Peter
Odom, makes a big man little and a little man big, and that`s just what this guy had going for him. To Chief Terry Rozema, could you please
address Peter Odom? The defense lawyer?
ROZEMA: Well, this isn`t an issue of violation of a force continuum. When there`s deadly force that`s required, deadly force is utilized. You
don`t start with pepper spray or with commands if the individual has refused multiple times to put the gun down, he`s walking right towards a
business with hundreds of people in it. If we hadn`t taken the action we did, and he`d shot somebody, we`d be having a completely different
conversation right now. So, you know, I`d much rather be answering this question than the question of why we didn`t actually (inaudible).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:30]
GRACE: Love crazed or gun crazed? Was Shana Hubers (ph) a love crazed woman who could not let go of her boyfriend? Or was Ryan Posten
(ph) a gun crazed lawyer who snapped under the pressures of a high powered job? 29-year-old Ryan found dead on the marble floor of his dining room in
his upscale home. Six bullet wounds to the face, arm and chest. 24-year- old Shana Hubers says she shoots in self-defense. But police say she shoots in cold blood. They say Ryan wanted out, to stop the sex and dating
with Shana Hubers, but she would not take no for an answer. In the last hours, we obtained police interrogation video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not a murderer, ma`am. I just killed him in self-defense.
His glasses were still on. He was twitching some more. I shot him a couple more times to make sure he was dead because I didn`t want to watch
him die. He was already dead. It was over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I got to tell you, this police interrogation video is the icing on the cake. I thought the 911 call itself was damning, but before
we go to our reporters and lawyers, I want you to hear what we just obtained. The police interrogation video. What does it reveal? Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was screaming and he had his hands on the table and he wasn`t completely standing up. He was like this. He was
sitting. He was like this. Literally. That`s when I knew he was dead or close to it, the twitching. And that`s it. I couldn`t -- I love him. I
still love him, even though it hurt, I still love him, and he loves. I couldn`t stand to watch him twitch. I knew he was going to die or have a
completely deformed face. He`s very vain.
One of the last conversations we had that was very good was that he wants (inaudible), he wants to get a nose job. Just like that person. And
I shot him right here. I gave him the nose job he wanted. I think that`s why I shot him in the head. I shot him probably six times. One in the
head. He fell on the ground. He was laying like this. His glasses were still on. He was twitching some more. I shot him a couple more times to
make sure he was dead, because I didn`t want to watch him die. He was already dead, he was already dead. It was already over. And I called my
mom, and I said, mom, mom, I killed Ryan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Meryl Streep, watch out, OK, because here is a contender. To Melissa Neeley, anchor with WLW, he was twitching so I shot him again?
NEELEY: That`s what she keeps saying, and she told detectives and prosecutors and everyone she`s told her story to, and we know this because
she`s shot him six times. Twice in the face, once in the arm, once in the back and twice in the chest.
[20:40:10]
GRACE: I hate to pick on you, guys, but unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom and Robert Schalk. Okay, first to you, Schalk, did you notice in the
police interrogation tape that she said -- this is very, very critical, Robert. That he was sitting, he was about to stand up, he was sitting when
she shot him, so how can that be self-defense?
SCHALK: Nancy, it`s very difficult for the defense attorney now because she said it in the interrogation, and now she can`t change the
story, she`s locked in. She obviously can`t --
GRACE: I`m glad you admitted to that, Robert. She`s locked into it, so now she`s stuck with it.
SCHALK: She`s stuck with that answer. And the problem is, they`re going to want to claim he was standing up, therefore he was a threat to
her. But obviously if he`s sitting down, it minimizes or negates the threat altogether, and therefore, in my opinion, completely shoots her
defense out of the water, no pun intended. So at that, whether or not they can establish it through any other forensic or medical evidence, I don`t
know, but that`s the only out they`re going to have.
GRACE: Peter Odom, I can tell you`re about to let it rip. All right. What`s your defense? What are you going to do with the fact she`s already
said he was sitting?
ODOM: Nancy, not my defense. Her defense. The only defense that makes sense and the one I predict right here is going to work. She told
the police from the very beginning that she killed him in self-defense. I don`t know why the prosecution is playing this videotape for the jury,
because she says again and again and again during that interrogation that she acted in self-defense, and Nancy, here`s something that you might not
know. Here`s something you might not know. It was his gun. It was his gun. He brought the gun to the table. He was the one who was threatening
her with the gun. She stopped the threat.
GRACE: Hold on, you`re going to have to cut his mike. Didn`t want to do it. It`s just like Arias. You`re basing your whole defense on what she
says. We don`t know he brought the gun to the table. We know she`s claiming self-defense, but says she starts shooting while he`s sitting
down, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was dying. I shot him once and didn`t shoot him for a while. I was watching him die, and it was so painful to watch
him die, and to know that I had done that. Then I just walked around the table and shot him where I knew he would die immediately and fast. He was
across. He motioned with his hands to hit me and I was going like this. (inaudible) his face and I went. He was laying on the floor hurting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I have -- I have -- I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
Just like that person. And I shot him right here. I gave him the nose job he wanted.
Okay, are they going to arrest me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I don`t know what they`ll do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What you are hearing is what we`ve just obtained, the police interrogation tapes. Sex crazed or gun crazed? Those are the issues. Did
she gun down a boyfriend because he wanted to end the relationship, murder before break up? Or was he the one that`s gun crazed? Take a listen to
this interrogation tape we just obtained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really loved him and it`s just really messed up that we had to get into a physical fight and a fist had to happen. If I
could come back and do it all over again, I would rather have my head beat into the coffee table.
He was throwing me on the ground, I don`t have any serious injuries, but I could have had, and I shot him in self-defense because he`s done
stuff before where I hit my head on a head board and could have died.
I`m scared because I know what happened. I know what this is. The back door was open. I don`t know if the neighbors were there. They`re
going to witness, they`ll say yes, I have seen this man throw her on the ground.
(singing): How sweet the sound. That saved a wretch like me.
I didn`t. I didn`t. I can`t believe I did that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay, she just had to hit the high notes. Psychologist Caryn Stark with us. It reminds me so much of Jodi Arias. Remember her singing
during police interrogation? Keep in mind, Caryn Stark, she just shot her lover five times in the face. Hold on. Caryn, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS (singing): It might change my memory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, okay. Seems like I`m watching a repeat now. Now, Huber has not been convicted, unlike Jodi Arias, but Caryn Stark, she just shot
her boyfriend in the face five times, or six times, and she`s in there singing "Amazing Grace." And the police, the lady police officer walks in
and she goes, pause and hits the high note, she goes, okay, now, what?
STARK: Nancy, it is so much like Jodi Arias. And her personality is very, very similar. You think about a narcissist when you look at a woman
like this.
[20:50:00]
Because her big concern was, who would want to be with her now that she`s killed her boyfriend? And that`s a very odd thing to be thinking
about, as well as singing, as well as saying she defended herself. There`s no history of abuse, and it doesn`t seem with him sitting down, that there
was much to defend. And who knows actually who got the gun. She had to have known where his guns were. So this is a person who could care less
that she just shot her boyfriend except how it affects her.
GRACE: OK. I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall. I want to pick up on something Caryn Stark brought up, how did the gun get to the table, what
happened during the shooting, how was the gun handled? Dr. Michael Arnall, forensic pathologist out of Denver, Colorado, hold on just a moment.
Before I go to Arnall, to Melissa Neeley with WLW. Did I miss something? I`m pretty sure she said in the interrogation tape that he was sitting or
about to stand when she first shot him? And wasn`t there blood all over the table? She even demonstrated in putting his head down on the table
after he was shot?
NEELEY: That`s right. And I believe that some of the pathologists that we`ve heard from said that that is not an aggressive move, and that he
wouldn`t have fallen on the table if he wouldn`t have been shot in a certain way. So it`s -- there`s a lot of doubt right now whether or not he
was the aggressor or if she was.
GRACE: Well, the fact that he`s sitting down when she shoots, right there I don`t understand how he can be an aggressor if he`s sitting down.
But you know what, let`s see what she says in this newly obtained police interrogation video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was screaming and he had his hands on the table and he wasn`t completely standing up. He was like this. He was
sitting. He was like this, literally. That`s when I knew he was dead or close to it. The twitching. And that`s it. I couldn`t -- I love him. I
still love him, even though it hurt, I still love him and he loves. I couldn`t stand to watch him twitch. I knew he was going to die or have a
completely deformed face. He`s very vain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:40]
GRACE: Love-crazed or gun-crazed? Police say Shayna Hubers shot on purpose when she gunned down her boyfriend, six shots to the face. She
says self-defense. But is it true she just couldn`t take no for an answer when he wanted to break up? You know, Justin Freiman, is it true that to
every 100 texts she would send him, he would send her one and even threaten to block her if she didn`t quit texting him?
FREIMAN: That`s right, Nancy, 100-1. And the one was exactly like you said, if you keep texting, I`m going to have to block you.
GRACE: Another thing, to Dr. Michael Arnall, forensic pathologist, joining us from the pot capital of the country, Denver, Colorado. Dr.
Arnall, there was a degree of contusion around each gunshot wound. To me, that says he was alive at the time of all of those gunshots. She says he
was twitching and she kept shooting him.
ARNALL: He was moving. And each of the wounds is hemorrhaging, meaning had blood, so he was alive during each one of the gunshot wounds,
yes.
GRACE: What do you make of the trajectory path, the angle of the gunshot wounds, if he were sitting down, what does that say, Dr. Arnall?
ARNALL: The angle is important. One of the gunshot wounds was in the back. So she certainly wasn`t looking at his face. Two of the gunshot
wounds were from relatively far away, two or three feet. Four of the gunshots were close, 2, 3, 4 inches. So it looks like she closed the
distance between herself and her victim between the first two shots and the last four shots.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom, Caryn Stark, psychologist and Robert Schalk. Peter Odom, for every 100 texts she would send him, he
would write back once and say, please stop texting me.
ODOM: Sounds like she was in love, Nancy.
GRACE: In love?
ODOM: You don`t have to -- if you have a gun in your hand, you don`t have to be standing up to be a threat. Here`s what we know about the case.
They were his guns that were in the room, it was his gun that was used. And the way she puts it, he was going for the gun during that conversation,
and she got the gun away from him and stopped the threat.
Now, as one of your earlier guests said, Ms. Neeley, who knows more about this case than just about anybody else, she said there`s a lot of
doubt about who was the aggressor here. That`s why the jury is going to find her not guilty.
GRACE: That`s a good point.
ODOM: Remember, the police have to prove, the state has to prove that she didn`t act in self-defense.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember American hero Marine Corporal Aaron Seal, 23, Elkhart (ph), Indiana. Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, loved
the outdoors, fishing with his father, baseball. Parents David and Lori, sisters Valerie and Natasha. Aaron Seal, American hero.
Great news, Facebook, Twitter fans, handcuff keychains and awesome fridge magnets goes to charity. Go to nancygrace.com for info on a
giveaway. Okay. Who doesn`t want a handcuff keychain? Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good
night, friend.
END
