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Nancy Grace
Lawyers Target Hero Arizona Cop. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired April 23, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Arizona. Shocking video emerging showing Arizona police intentionally running over a suspect,
plowing him down on the street, using the police cruiser to intentionally run the man down. It`s all caught on video. We have the video.
It`s graphic. It`s violent. But this is what they won`t tell you. The guy he mows down a one-man crime wave, a string of violent crime the whole
day, last stop to Walmart to steal a gun. A movement tonight now mounting to kick this cop off the force or indict him, to sue him and bankrupt him.
Bombshell tonight. Not only a move to have him thrown off the force or indicted, the cop now facing a lawsuit that can bankrupt him and his
family, lawyers lining up to cash in. We hear tonight from the officer himself in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL RAPIEJKO, POLICE OFFICER: So he`s refused commands. He`s holding what I believe to be a locked and loaded rifle based on the transmission
that he`s fired a round into the air. I need to shoot him to stop the threat, or I need to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And farm country. After she joins in a desperate search for her missing husband, even combing nearby woods and pastures on horseback,
police find Charlene Mess`s (ph) her husband of 30 years tied up and dead in the back yard under a huge pile of manure!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... what happened on this dairy farm in Attaca (ph). Underneath a pile of manure is where police say they found Mess`s body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a manure pile on the family`s property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t have an enemy in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just shocking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And a 21-year-old coed dies after an on-line diet pill causes her to, quote, "burn up from the inside."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 21-year-old student is dead after taking diet pills. Eloise (ph) allegedly wasn`t aware of the dangers of the pills she was
taking to maintain her slim appearance, an appearance that ended up costing her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t think anybody should lose a child like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Live, Arizona. Shocking video emerging showing Arizona police intentionally running over a suspect, plowing him down on the street, using
the police cruiser to intentionally run the man down. It`s all caught on video. We have the video.
It`s graphic. It`s violent. But what they won`t tell you, the guy that`s mowed down had been in a string of violent crimes the whole day, starting
off with an aggravated assault on an 11-year-old boy, last stop to Walmart to steal a long gun and ammo. A movement mounting to kick the cop off the
force or indict him.
Bombshell tonight. Not only does a fleet of lawyers want him thrown off the force or indicted, that officer now facing a lawsuit that can bankrupt
him and his family, lawyers lining up to cash in.
But tonight, we hear from that police officer in his own words. Now, this is how the day started. Take a listen to this 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what are you reporting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m calling from the Walmart on Cortaro (ph) Road, and I have an armed customer in the sporting goods department.
911 OPERATOR: OK, is he threatening anyone?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to find out. He`s loading the weapon in the sporting goods department at the moment.
911 OPERATOR: He is loading it? And what`s your address there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8280 North Cortaro Road.
911 OPERATOR: OK, and who are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m the asset protection manager.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And your name? Do you have him or video or can you see him now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has the gun and the bullets. Sorry, what was...
911 OPERATOR: He`s loading the weapon now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`m sorry. I`m trying to figure out exactly what`s going on. I don`t have him on video. He is -- I`m trying to get
back there to where he is at.
911 OPERATOR: OK. So what does he have?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has a 30-aught-6 (ph), and he is loading the weapon in the store...
911 OPERATOR: OK, I have another caller saying he stole the gun.
[20:05:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Is that what you`re reporting, or what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. I`m not sure. They called me...
911 OPERATOR: OK. We have another caller. We`ll talk to them, OK?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, there`s quite a disconnect there. I mean, hello, 911! He`s stealing a long gun, and he`s loading it inside a Walmart! That`s what I`m
calling about. That`s what I heard. You know, maybe I didn`t hear what the dispatch was hearing. But this guy goes into Walmart, steals a long
gun and starts loading it and racking the long gun in Walmart, all right?
Now, this is the background which leads me to this -- roll the video, Liz, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAPIEJKO: This is a rapidly evolving or devolving situation. So we have a guy. We know he has a long gun. We think it might be loaded. OK, we know
it`s loaded. He`s not listened to commands. He`s fired off a round. And this is going bad quickly because we do not have it contained.
He`s moving through what is a very, for Marana, dense business area, all kinds of businesses around there that -- again, these are potential victim,
hostages. We want to avoid that. And then he has not responded to commands. He has not put the gun down. He`s carrying it in an easily
manipulatable manner, where he can instantly pose a lethal threat. And so my mind is, OK, we need to stop this when we get there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And there you are hearing from the officer himself. That was Officer Michael Rapiejko explaining why he did what he did.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of D.C., and defense attorney Kirby Clements out of Atlanta.
First to you, Peter Odom. Explain to me why, A, you want the cop thrown off the force, B, indicted. And third, why should the cop who`s saving the
lives of all those people coming out of businesses -- why should he be sued civilly and bankrupt the guy?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This case boils down to one question, Nancy. Was this a deadly force situation? His lawyers are banking on the fact
that they can prove that deadly force was not justified here. I mean, this officer -- by the way, his nickname is Robocop. Did you know that? And
did you know that he had been sued previously when he was on another police department and they settled out of court? Just a couple tidbits I`ll throw
at you, Nancy. But this...
GRACE: Well, actually, I already did...
ODOM: This cop`s name was -- was...
GRACE: You know what? I`ll answer Peter`s question right now. You know, what`s interesting is that`s your take on his background.
ODOM: Well, I just answered...
GRACE: But actually, to Tammy Rose, investigative reporter. This cop, Officer Rapiejko, has actually scored 100s every single time on every test
he`s taken, and not only that, was just honored, was he not?
TAMMY ROSE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Yes, he`s a very high- ranking officer. He`s from New Jersey and spent several years with the New York City Police Department, where he did resign, and there was a civil
case against him that was ultimately cleared. But he`s very respected in his community as a high-ranking officer.
GRACE: And let me get -- there he is getting a commendation for valor. And I`d like to make sure the defense attorneys heard me. He was cleared
in that investigation.
Hold on, I`m hearing in my ear, right now, I`m being joined by "Dog" Chapman from "Dog and Beth: On the Hunt." He`s probably the world`s most
famous bounty hunter.
OK, I think that`s you behind these glasses.
DUANE "DOG" CHAPMAN, "DOG AND BETH: ON THE HUNT": Yes. Hi.
GRACE: But Dog, welcome.
CHAPMAN: Thank you.
GRACE: Question to you. When you hear these defense attorneys talking about how this cop should be sued, he should be bankrupted, he should be
thrown off the force and indicted -- give us a little taste of what it`s like to actually arrest somebody that`s got a loaded long gun, a rifle,
they`ve racked it, and they`re shooting up in the air and not following your commands.
CHAPMAN: Well, the loaded long gun is actually a miniature cannon. A 30- aught-6 can drop an elephant. I think -- you know, his nickname was Robocop. I think this guy is an absolute hero. He did exactly what we,
the public, expect. He`s there to serve and protect.
The guy`s already threatened to kill someone. If you`re walking down the street with a gun and you`ve already fired it, the level is there. You
need to take that guy out.
I see the video how the officer went around the other officer. Within those seconds right there, your heart is beating, the adrenaline is going.
You know you may lose your life also. You got to stop that guy, whatever it takes. Bam! He hits him like that.
GRACE: Oh!
CHAPMAN: He watches the rifle as the guy goes down to make sure where the gun was at. I think he needs a commendation.
GRACE: You know, another thing, Dog...
CHAPMAN: Any lawyer that says -- ma`am?
[20:10:02]GRACE: Another thing -- everybody, with me, probably the world`s most famous bounty hunter, is Dog Chapman. What a lot of people don`t get
-- you know, lawyers, they graduate from Harvard and Yale, then they go work in some law office on the 54th floor and send their assistant out for
a latte.
You know what? They`re not out on the street arresting people that are armed, all right? They don`t know what that`s like. And it`s all well and
good for them to sit back and say shoulda-woulda-coulda, but I`d like to see them get out there and try to take down a guy who`s a one-man crime
wave who`s got a loaded gun in his hand.
CHAPMAN: Exactly right. Any lawyer that -- that -- you know, it`s one thing for a lawyer to represent someone when he knows his client is guilty.
But any lawyer that would sue a police officer that did his job, above and beyond his job, needs to be disbarred. That means they need fired. What -
- you know, get me his address. Let me tell you. Some lawyer goes after this guy...
GRACE: And you know, and I want to take it step by step, Dog Chapman. Liz, could you cue me up the video where it`s actually happening and you
hear the police dispatch as it`s all going down? Let`s look at it second by second.
Tonight, this cop facing a potential lawsuit that could bankrupt him and his family while criticism grows that he should be thrown off the force or
even indicted.
OK, take a look at this, along with Peter Odom and Kirby Clements. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One round just went out into the sky. It`s definitely unlocked now. It`s definitely loaded. Have units be prepared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the subject shooting, or did you shoot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negative, did not shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unit right there, just stand off. Stand off. The gun is loaded. Unit on (INAUDIBLE) stay off! Right, man down!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) He`s down! He`s down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom, Kirby Clements. Also with me, the world`s most famous bounty hunter, Dog Chapman.
OK, Peter Odom, what were you saying?
ODOM: I was saying, Nancy, this case boils down to whether that was a deadly force situation. Now, his lawyers -- and I`m not sure I agree with
them, frankly, but his lawyers think that they can prove that this was not a deadly force situation.
Now, this officer made a snap judgment. If the jury in this civil suit that`s being filed believes that that was unjustified, that this was not a
deadly force situation, then this guy wins. But that`s the only way he`s going to win.
GRACE: Kirby Clements, tell me why this guy -- who, by the way, everybody, when they finally get this guy, Mario Valencia -- when they finally get him
to the hospital, guess what his defense is? His defense, Kirby and Peter Odom, is, I don`t remember anything.
Really? This is after he ag assaults an 11-year-old boy. This is after he sets a church on fire, First Baptist Temple there. This is after he goes
into Walmart, steals a long gun, after all that, robs a 7-Eleven, armed robbery. He says he doesn`t remember, Kirby. What about that?
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think you saw the same video I saw. He just crashed into a police car and got knocked sky high, so it`s
probably reasonable he doesn`t remember.
But I want to point something out to you, Nancy, because you always say past behavior is a prediction of future actions. How many people did he
shoot before that? None. How many people did he point a gun at before that? None.
So this whole idea of this man being some threat to some people in some business is ridiculous. That one cop in front of the officer who rammed
him -- that cop didn`t run him down. Why? Because he was prepared to wait. This officer, Robocop, cost the city $20,000 in a previous lawsuit,
jumped the gun.
GRACE: And you know what else he did? You know what else he did?
CLEMENTS: He ran somebody down.
GRACE: He saved some lives.
CLEMENTS: No, he didn`t.
GRACE: OK, Dog Chapman, can you talk some sense into these two?
CHAPMAN: Well, you know, you can`t because lawyers, some of them, are like that. I mean, this guy saved more than one life. He knew that he had a
predator with an armed cannon, 30-aught-6. Instead of shooting the guy in the back of the head, adrenaline kicked in. He went around his officer.
This cop right here is a hero. And you know, when someone files a lawsuit on you, if you`re absolutely right, it still costs money to beat the case.
So that`s why the 20 grand.
Kirby, you know, brother, if you were in that cop`s car, you would have told him, Get him, man. Get him. Or would you just -- you know, what are
going to do with the guy?
GRACE: Yes, let him turn around and shoot the rifle at the cop.
Guys, tonight, we hear from the cop himself. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAPIEJKO: Again, immediately thinking priority of life. So there`s a whole bunch of people at work. It`s a Thursday morning. These businesses
are all occupied. There`s cars in the parking lot. There`s a whole lot of potential innocent victims in these buildings, and we -- I don`t even know
what these businesses are at this point.
[20:15:05]And it wouldn`t be enough time to have communications call them and have them lock down because it`s -- in the time it would take them to
do that, he could already be inside, based on that close proximity to the business. So I do not want him, an armed, agitated, non-compliant suspect,
to gain access to a building with potential victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got -- it`s locked. He can`t get the lock off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sue?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, never mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disobeyed commands to put the gun down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t want to do this! You don`t want to do this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, one round just went out into the sky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deadly force is justified at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a move to throw a cop off the force, have him indicted and sue him until he`s bankrupt. Why? Because he runs down a known and lethal
threat. This guy has just come from Walmart, where he steals a long gun and the ammo for it. He had just ag assaulted an 11-year-old boy, set a
church on fire and robbed a 7-Eleven. And still the lawyers need more?
[20:20:13]Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got -- it`s locked. He can`t get the lock off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, never mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, one round just went out into the sky. It`s definitely unlocked now. It`s definitely loaded. Have units be prepared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the suspect shooting, or did you shoot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negative. Did not shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unit right there, just stand off. Stand off. The gun is loaded. Unit on (INAUDIBLE) stay off!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, man down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) He`s down. He`s down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com. Candace, when the lawyers file this suit against this cop who`s trying to
save other lives, they`re probably going to go for millions, but I bet they won`t mention this guy being a one-man crime wave, then claiming he
remembers nothing.
What`s a recap of all the crimes he committed that morning?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Well, he started out in his boxers and T-shirt, Nancy. He went to a 7-Eleven. He was carrying a four-
foot-high metal pole, a very threatening piece of metal. He stole a pack of cigarettes and some lighters.
Then he moved on to the local Baptist church. He broke windows, got into the church. You could see, you know, the cigarettes that he apparently
stole from the 7-Eleven. And then he set fire to a bunch of books. So he set fire. He was -- you know, he`s accused of arson. That`s another one
of the crimes that he`s racking up that day.
Then he goes to a home and -- where there`s an 11-year-old kid who`s waiting for his dad to get back from a minor medical procedure to take him
to school. And he has -- he threatens this kid with the metal pole. He threatens the dad when the dad comes home. And then he steals his car.
And with that car, that`s when he proceeds to go to the Walmart and steal the rifle and the bullets and do the damage that he almost did that could
have caused a lot of loss of life.
GRACE: Dog Chapman joining us, probably the most famous bounty hunter in the world. What would you have advised this cop to do?
CHAPMAN: I would -- exactly what he did. He did the exact perfect, exact right thing. The threat level -- listen, the guy`s got a gun. He`s firing
it and has more ammo. There`s no higher threat level in the world than that. He did exactly what he was trained to do.
GRACE: So Kirby Clements, when the lawyers move in like vultures, how much do you think they`re going to ask for in their complaint, in their civil
suit against this cop? What do they want, his house, his car, his bank account, his kids` education fund? What do they want?
CLEMENTS: You know, they`re probably going to ask for some sum of money, an undeclared sum. But I`ll tell you this. The city`s insurance is going
to pick up and pay for it anyway. Cops -- you`re not touching their money. You`re not touching it at all.
GRACE: Uh-uh. Uh-uh.
CLEMENTS: They city -- they city`s going to cover it...
GRACE: They`re going after him. The city plus him. They`re going to go after everybody there is...
CLEMENTS: It`s not worth it to go after him. It`s not worth it to go after him.
GRACE: And if they can...
CLEMENTS: He has nothing.
GRACE: ... they`ll break him, all because he`s trying to protect the public! In fact...
CLEMENTS: Protect who?
GRACE: Let me convince you guys. Take a listen to this 911.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what are you reporting?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A guy just stole a gun from Walmart on Cortaro and is running away, and he`s loading it.
911 OPERATOR: OK. He`s running away. Where`s he at, at this point?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s just passed the post office and he`s walking toward, like, the Harkins Theater.
911 OPERATOR: And it looked like he was loading it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he`s loading it. It looks like he`s loading the gun. He`s, like, pumping the little whatever it`s called.
911 OPERATOR: Has he crossed the street yet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s crossing the street. He`s walking, like, across the street right now. He`s on the left-hand side.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:28:22]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say Mario Valencia`s day began at 6:45 AM here at this 7-Eleven, where he robbed it in his
underwear. Then police say he made a stop here at Tucson Baptist Temple, where he broke in and started a fire. Soon after, he ended up on this
block, committing a home invasion, and police say, stealing a car.
He went to this Walmart, where surveillance video shows he stole a gun and ammunition. Police were unsure if he`d been able to release the store lock
on the gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, man down!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Use of force was justified. There`s no doubt about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me tonight, Peter Odom, Kirby Clements, Dog Chapman, Dog the bounty hunter. And joining me right now, Matthew Horace, law enforcement,
security expert and senior VP, FJC Security.
Matthew Horace, tonight, we get wind that they, lawyers, are planning to sue this cop for everything he`s got, plus have him thrown off the force,
plus have him indicted, and plus sue the force.
What should he have done? What would you want a cop to do if your family was, for instance, in that church that has the pre-school with 75 kids in
it or working along that strip where he`s walking? What do you want the cop to do?
MATTHEW W. HORACE, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SECURITY EXPERT: Nancy, I would have wanted the cop to do exactly what he did in this case. We got to
consider three things here. Number one, his state of mind. He poignantly and describingly (ph) told us exactly how he felt that this guy was a
danger to the community.
Number two, this suspect was a walking wave of anarchy. He needed to be stopped before something else happened. And number three, keep in mind the
suspect was arrested with very little injury to himself, at great risk to the police officer.
GRACE: Back to Dog Chapman from "Dog: Bounty Hunter," "Dog and Beth: On the Hunt."
All right. I believe the cop did the right thing.
DUANE "DOG" CHAPMAN," DOG AND BETH: ON THE HUNT": Correct.
GRACE: You want to get into a shooting match with this guy in a residential and business area? I think it`s really hard for people that
have not been out there arresting criminals that are armed to understand what it`s like.
CHAPMAN: Well, and, Nancy, the .30-06 would go right through a bulletproof vest like a knife through butter. I think they did exactly right. This --
you know, they lie. I don`t remember what happened? We have to remember, these are criminals. They lie about everything. I`m going through this
right now in Texas with these guys. They are liars. Any lawyer that would represent this guy and try to sue the cop, that`s what we call ambulance
chasers.
I have a lawyer named Marty Singer, brother, the cop, I`ll let you borrow him, he`ll help you, you did a great job, you saved a lot of lives. Do
this guy got a record? Yes. He`s a professional shoplifter, he`s a professional thief and he almost became a murderer. That cop ended his
wave of crime, his career. That was great, great work.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:34] GRACE: To farm country, after she joins in a desperate search for her missing husband, even combing nearby woods and pastures on
horseback, police find Charlene Mess` husband of 30 years tied up and dead in the backyard under a huge pile of manure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators removed evidence from the Mess farm after the body of Douglas Mess was found in a manure pile on the family`s
property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We learned that the father is deceased. It`s very traumatic.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sources close to the investigation tell me an argument had gotten out of hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Brian Mazurowski, joining me from WBEN.
So, Brian, thanks for joining me. This is a very rural and bucolic, idyllic, some would say, setting. The last thing you think you`re going to
find is a dead body tied and bound under a pile of manure. And another thing, the tying him up seems to discredit, oh, there was an argument that
got out of hand. I mean, you`ve got to think a minute, to tie up a grown man so you can kill him, Brian.
BRIAN MAZUROWSKI, NEWSMAN, WBEN: Yes, you would have to think some of that. And that`s kind of the way the story goes right now is that it was
an argument that got out of hand, that seems to be what happened. And we`re not exactly sure when the tying up occurred, though. It could have
occurred after Douglas Mess had died because you have to remember, he is about six foot tall or was about six foot tall and was a pretty big guy.
So she had to somehow be able to get him into a lift and drag him all the way, 300 yards behind the farm to where that manure pile was.
GRACE: Well, I really don`t see how tying his hands behind his back is going to make him weigh any less. But you know what, Brian, have it your
way. What I`m saying is if I find a dead body that has been bound and gagged, no, that did not happen post-mortem. No, it did not happen. I
guarantee you. I mean, if you were a fly on the wall, why would she tie him up after she killed him?
But don`t go anywhere, with me, Brian Mazurowski, from WBEN.
To Matthew Horace, very quickly, why would you tie somebody up after they`re dead?
MATTHEW HORACE, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SECURITY EXPERT: Well, Nancy, you`re absolutely right. It really doesn`t make sense. But at the end of the
day, that was a 350-acre crime scene. And the investigators went right back to where t it started and found what they found.
GRACE: You know, Brian, back to you, Brian Mazurowski, joining me, WBEN, why do you think -- what has led you to report that it was an argument that
got out of hand? You know, that`s a pretty benign way of describing what some would call a murder. Oh, it was just a little fuss that got out of
hand. Hello. He`s dead under a pile of manure. With his hands tied behind his back. That sounds like more than a little argument that got out
of hand to me.
MAZUROWSKI: Well, what we`ve heard so far about their relationship is that they were having some sort of issues. There was stress in the marriage.
They were having arguments in the past. We don`t know exactly what happened leading up --
GRACE: Excuse me, Brian.
MAZUROWSKI: Leading up to --
GRACE: Brian?
MAZUROWSKI: Yes.
GRACE: Are you married?
MAZUROWSKI: I am not married.
GRACE: OK. I kind of figured that out because let me tell you, in every marriage, there`s going to be arguments. There`s going to be stress and
arguments, especially once you have children. All right? Now back to what you were saying. Why would this be characterized as an argument that got
out of hand? Did anyone hear arguing?
MAZUROWSKI: No one heard arguing on the farm, at least as far as we can know. That`s something that was kind of gathered from people who know the
Messes, knew the family. They might have been having some trouble on the farm.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Brian. This pile of manure, nature`s fertilizer, is four feet tall, 12 feet wide, a length of 14 feet. This
woman shoveled four feet, four by 14 by 12 of manure to put her husband under?
[20:40:07] MAZUROWSKI: That`s the way the story goes. Fourteen by 12 at points, four feet high. He was buried under about three feet of manure.
And I guess she thought that that was the best way to hide the body. It would certainly mask the smell.
GRACE: OK. Is it true, Brian Mazurowski, that she then takes part in the search for her missing husband even going out on horseback with the police
looking for her husband all around and beyond their dairy farm?
MAZUROWSKI: That`s right. She was on horseback as part of the search. And the body was found by volunteers, not by her. But she did take part in
that search which lasted a while after he was reported missing all over their farm. Police wouldn`t say exactly how much she was invested into the
search or if she was really helping out, so to speak but --
GRACE: Hey, Brian. Brian, you already gave me my answer, man. She got out on horseback and joined the police to look for her dead husband when
she knew the whole time he`s bound and gagged under a four-foot pile of manure. OK. That took some acting, Brian. Did she give a statement,
Brian Mazurowski?
MAZUROWSKI: She did not give a statement.
GRACE: OK. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, forensic pathologist.
Dr. Gallagher, what would all the acidity in that pile of manure do to a human body over time?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, thanks again for having me on the show, Nancy. The acidity would actually erode the skin and cause an
increased level of decomposition over a shorter period of time.
GRACE: To Dr. Charles Sophy, joining me, psychiatrist out of L.A., author of "Side by Side."
Dr. Sophy, I`ve got to get into this woman`s brain. Now the state doesn`t need to do that. But explain to me how she had the chutzpa to not only
kill her husband, after he`s tied up, bound, gagged, the whole works, bury him under a pile of manure taller than a car, then get on horseback and
ride along with the police acting worried about where her husband is? How do you pull that off?
DR. CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST, AUTHOR, "SIDE BY SIDE": Well, I think you said the magic word, it`s acting. I mean, she cut her head off from her
heart. She did something. She knows what she did. And she`s going to try to lead people to think and feel in another direction. She`s acting. Why
is the question.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:45]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What happened on this dairy farm in Atika underneath a pile of manure is where police say they found Mess` body.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In a manure pile, on the family`s property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t have an enemy in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just shocking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: His body is found under a pile of manure. That`s as tall as a car, 12 by 14 feet. His body had been bound. And then to top it all off, his
wife of many years, Charlene, goes with the cops on horseback through countryside looking for her missing husband.
OK, how she pulled that off, I don`t know.
Joining me, Brian Mazurowski, WBEN, and Justin Freiman, why is everyone saying that there was an argument that got out of control? Nobody could
hear what was going on in that home. How do I know she didn`t plot and plan to kill her husband for weeks on end?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that`s what some people are telling the local affiliates there. But we`re not so sure what caused this
to happen. But they say it might have been a blunt instrument that he was hit with as a result of an argument.
GRACE: He was hit with a what, Justin?
FREIMAN: Some kind of a blunt instrument is what some people are saying.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Peter Odom out of D.C. and Kirby Clements out of Atlanta.
All right, Kirby, let`s hear your defense, keeping in mind he`s bound from behind, tied up and buried under a four-foot pile of manure, 12 by 14 feet.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Several things, Nancy, number one, you want me to believe this little small woman overpowered a man who`s
described by everyone as a giant. That didn`t happen.
GRACE: Yes. Yes, put him up, please.
CLEMENTS: Number two.
GRACE: Because when you sneak up on a man watching TV with a frying pan in your hand, that`s pretty easy.
CLEMENTS: What about the argument? What about the argument, Nancy? You don`t sneak up in the middle of an argument.
GRACE: What argument? What argument?
CLEMENTS: That`s what your people just told us. That there was an argument.
GRACE: No. What they said is they don`t know why neighbors are saying that.
CLEMENTS: Exactly. Nothing happened.
GRACE: There`s no proof of an argument.
CLEMENTS: There`s no motive. You`ve got no motive, you got no murder weapon, you got no proof she dragged --
GRACE: I don`t need a motive.
CLEMENTS: That she dragged that man`s body.
GRACE: I don`t need a motive.
CLEMENTS: You need something to have this woman killing this man.
GRACE: I`ve got her --
CLEMENTS: So you`ve got motive. She`s superhuman, she`s now the she-hulk, she attacks the giant, she dis-incapacitates him, ties him up, drags him
300 yards, and buries him under 14 feet of manure. You`ve given this woman superhuman abilities. You have nothing in this case but rampant
speculation.
GRACE: OK. That was beautiful, Kirby.
CLEMENTS: Thank you very much.
GRACE: Just absolutely beautiful.
To Brian Mazurowski, WBEN, other than the dead body in the backyard that she`s seen last with the murder victim, what do police have?
MAZUROWSKI: They really don`t have much or at least they`re not telling us what they have right now. They found the body and the one thing we do know
is they`re not looking at any other suspects. So they do have something to believe that she is the only one who could have done this, Charlene Mess --
GRACE: OK. So to you, Justin Freiman, what more to cops say they have?
FREIMAN: Well, police are still going through all the evidence there. But there were very few people that were actually at that home in the evening.
So it narrows down the people that they`re looking at.
GRACE: Well, is it true, Justin, that the wife never called, reporting him missing, the children had to? She never even bothered to tell cops, say, I
can`t find my husband?
[20:50:09] FREIMAN: That`s right. He left the home the night before, at 8:00 p.m. He didn`t have his medication on him which is alarming because
police are very concerned because they think he needs his medication. But nobody notified police until the very next day and it was the son that made
the call.
GRACE: So I guess she didn`t notice he never came home.
Right now CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight we`re recognizing some incredible acts of compassion and kindness.
CNN Heroes is looking for everyday people who are changing the world. How do we find these extraordinary people? Well, we find them with your help.
You can nominate someone right now at CNNheroes.com.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one is going to do anything about it, I will.
COOPER: Maybe your hero is protecting the environment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve got it, Ned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you`ve got it.
COOPER: Helping those with disabilities get more out of life. Giving hope to children born into poverty. Or opportunity through education. Or maybe
they found a unique way to solve a problem wherever they live.
Whatever their cause, nominating a CNN Hero is easier than ever. First go to CNNheroes.com and click nominate. We ask for some basic information
about your nominee and you, but most important we want to know what makes your hero extraordinary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you are ready?
COOPER: How is their work changing lives for the better? It`s really important to write from your heart because it`s your words that will make
your hero`s story stand out. After you`ve told us about your hero click submit. You`ll see this message that confirms we received it.
And now you can nominate a hero from any device. Just go to CNNheroes.com from your laptop, your tablet or your smartphone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, this is great. Yes.
COOPER: Being recognized as a CNN Hero can help the person you admire continue their life-changing work, but it all starts with you. So nominate
someone deserving today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:20] GRACE: A 21-year-old co-ed dies after online diet pills cause her to, quote, "burn up from the inside."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just cried. The other day starts to cry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her mother says the pills caused her to literally burn up from the inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was gone and it must have been an awful way to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Dan O`Donnell, anchor with WISN, burn up from the inside? This 21- year-old college student is dead. What happened?
DAN O`DONNELL, ANCHOR, WISN: It`s a very tragic story, Nancy. She went online to purchase diet pills that were sold illegally. This is a
substance dinitrophenol that`s more commonly used in fertilizers and explosives but it causes the body`s metabolism to work far more quickly.
But that means it`s also overheating.
Her mom was right. It does appear that this young lady did burn to death. It`s a very, very sad story.
GRACE: OK. Dr. Gallagher, forensic pathologist out of Daytona Beach. I don`t understand how something could be online with DNP in it that causes
the victim to burn from the inside. It`s a diet pill. I don`t understand how that happens.
GALLAGHER: Well, Nancy, the diet pill alters the body. Normally the body would take food and convert that food to energy. But with this chemical
onboard, the body takes in food and converts it not into energy for the body but directly into heat and it is this heat that the patient felt and
was her ultimate demise.
GRACE: OK. Justin Freiman, what is DNP?
FREIMAN: It`s actually a certain substance that`s more of an industrial use to it. It`s used for all types of things including mostly pesticides.
So you`re basically putting pesticide into your system to lose weight.
GRACE: OK. I don`t understand.
Dr. Gallagher, do other diet pills or substances contain DNP?
GALLAGHER: They do, Nancy, but they are often labeled in the United States not for human consumption. It may have been outlawed since 1938.
GRACE: Everyone, this co-ed Eloise Parry dead at 21, allegedly taking diet pills containing DNP she bought online. Pills causing her to, quote, "burn
up from the inside."
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Lance Corporal James Chamroeun, 20, Union City, Georgia. Second tour, Purple Heart, National
Defense Service Medal, remembered as soft spoken and friendly. Parents Victor, Edwina, one sister, four brothers.
James Chamroeun, American hero.
And a special memorial tonight to friend, Elizabeth Cemelich, mother of our friend, Linda (INAUDIBLE). Here is your favorite childhood picture taken
by her mom.
Elizabeth loved beagle Mafi, flower garden and violin. We remember.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
