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Nancy Grace
George Zimmerman Incident Developments. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired May 12, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Lake Mary, Florida. After 17-year-old Trayvon Martin gunned down by the captain neighborhood
watch, George Zimmerman walks free. But then reports of a physical altercation with his wife and claims he then pulls a shotgun on his
girlfriend.
We then uncover Zimmerman`s shocking arsenal of guns and ammo and a road rage incident, where Zimmerman allegedly threatens to shoot the other
driver dead, all culminating now.
Police racing to a scene after they discover George Zimmerman, nearly two years to the day he walks on murder charges, in yet another gun-toting
altercation. Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, more disturbing details revealed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a guy just said he had to pull a gun on a guy. He had to shoot at somebody. It was George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A weapon was recovered from George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Zimmerman. You can see the gunshot wound (INAUDIBLE) side right there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Indianapolis. Imagine going to sleep at night in your own home, Dad snoozing off, Mom and daughter fall asleep later. 5:00
AM, the grim reaper enters your house on a quiet, tree-lined street, the grim reaper in the form of six parolees.
After tying Daddy up and separating him from the women, Mom and daughter kicked, shot, sex assaulted and forced to the ATM to withdraw
thousands. Tonight, their story of survival. And the tough question, why were these thugs out of jail in the first place?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... shot and sexually assaulted when a group of men broke in to her family`s far (ph) northside (ph) home. Patenza`s (ph)
daughter, Alison (ph), was also sexually assaulted during the home invasion. They were both driven to the bank and forced to withdraw
thousands in cash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t want these guys to be out to hurt anybody again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Houston suburbs, police probing a Texas family after twin babies, 15-month-old twin baby girls, Savannah (ph) and Sabrina (ph), in
the family tub. But in the last hours, Mommy breaks into a beaming smile as she`s arrested for the drowning deaths of her 15-month-old twin girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watch in this exclusive video, they arrest Barbara Ramirez Sifuentes (ph). As she is led away in handcuffs, she
appeared to smile broadly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I saw them bring out the twins, you know, they were lifeless, doing CPR on them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ramirez was pulled over. As you can see from the video, the arrest came without incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Lake Mary, Florida. After 17-year-old Trayvon Martin gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch, George
Zimmerman walks free. But then reports of physical altercation with his wife, then claims he pulls a shotgun on his girlfriend.
Then we uncover Zimmerman`s shocking arsenal of guns and ammo, then a road rage incident where Zimmerman allegedly threatens to shoot the other
driver dead, all culminating now, police racing to a scene after they discover George Zimmerman. nearly two years to the day after he walks on
murder charges, in yet another gun-toting altercation. In the last hours, more disturbing details revealed.
Tonight, we contact the lawyer for the man involved in this latest George Zimmerman gun altercation. You know him well. He is attorney Mark
Nejame out of the Florida jurisdiction.
Mark, when will it end with Zimmerman? I mean, when will he finally be put in jail? And last night, I got into a whole heap of trouble
lambasting Zimmerman like he`s the innocent party! I mean, listen, when you don`t know -- when you don`t know a horse, look at the track record,
Mark. How many gun incidents do there have to be before people realize Zimmerman is a walking crime wave?
MARK NEJAME, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you said it very well, Nancy. I think history is the best indicator of what the present and the future will
be. And that`s what we have here. We have a person with a significant history of different people who don`t even know each other claiming acts of
violence often involving a firearm, as contrasted to my client, Mr. Apperson, who has no instances where anybody`s ever claimed that he`s been
violent with them.
So all you`ve got to do is juxtapose those two situations, each to the other, and I think that history is a great indicator of what really
happened here.
[20:05:02]GRACE: What does your guy say, Matthew Apperson? What does he say happens? How did this whole thing unfold?
NEJAME: Well, very simply, as he initially went -- found a stranger because he didn`t have a cell phone on him, so he went and found a stranger
and said, I`ve shot at George Zimmerman. And so he clearly knew that it was George Zimmerman in the vehicle.
And then from there, he told his story to the law enforcement, and basically, he said that he`d had two prior incidences with George Zimmerman
back in September. As a good citizen, he contacted law enforcement because he believed he was in fear for the altercation or the connection that the
two of them had. He didn`t want to file a criminal complaint, but he did want to document it, which is what good citizens should do.
and then, sure enough, thankfully, he did that because it showed that when, in fact, they had this happenstance run-in again with each other, a
gun was brandished, and he had a right, which he did, to protect himself. And he shot because he believed he was going to get shot when he saw George
Zimmerman, according to him, brandishing his firearm.
GRACE: Let`s see an aerial shot of what went down yesterday. So these two have had words in the past over what? To my understanding, your
guy, Apperman, noticed Zimmerman driving along right beside him, not going faster, not going slower. So your guy, Apperman, rolls the window down,
says, Hey, what`s up? And that`s when Zimmerman starts off. And that`s where their altercations began.
What happened in that very first incident, Mark Nejame?
NEJAME: You`re talking about this incident or the one in September, Nancy? I`m sorry.
GRACE: I guess the first one.
NEJAME: The one in September, there was this -- this happenstance situation. They were by each other in the vehicle, and then, according to
Mr. Apperson, George Zimmerman was just mouthing off to him, giving him some sort of nonsense. He recognized him. He felt endangered because he
was aware of the history that attached to George Zimmerman. And he went ahead and extricated himself from the situation, but did call law
enforcement and said, Look, I`m in fear. This guy was giving me these signals. He was giving me these -- you know, the signs that I was very
much in danger.
And in fact, what he said, he was drumming on his vehicle like a drummer to a song on the radio, and all of a sudden, either Zimmerman or
the passenger with him said something like, Are you throwing us gang signals? The guy didn`t know what he was talking about. And he really had
a well-founded fear.
So he went and reported it that he had this run-in, and then another one occurred, so he had two of them, and he reported both of them to the
Lake Mary Police Department.
GRACE: OK, and we have those 911 calls. And joining me also is the defender, the supporter of George Zimmerman, Frank Taaffe. You know, Frank
Taaffe, don`t you find it unusual that every time in the past, that it`s the other person that calls 911? I mean, according to you, your man,
George Zimmerman, is somehow always the victim. How come it`s not the victim calling 911?
FRANK TAAFFE, SUPPORTER OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Well, in this case, it`s pretty clear -- and Mr. Nejame, a very prominent Orlando attorney -- and I
respect a lot, but it`s clear that somebody got a bullet hole in a window. If that wasn`t willful, malicious and wanton -- someone wanted to take out
George Zimmerman. I didn`t see a bullet go into Mr. Apperson`s car, where (ph) the case is there`s a statute here in Florida -- Mark, you know,
shooting a missile, a deadly missile into a vehicle willfully and wantonly is a felony! And your...
GRACE: OK, let`s address that.
TAAFFE: ... client should be charged -- your client should be charged with that felony and also attempted second degree murder -- attempted
murder. And why...
GRACE: Let`s find out why it happened. What happened, Mark Nejame?
TAAFFE: Why is it no justice for George? Why (INAUDIBLE)
NEJAME: Frank, Frank...
TAAFFE: Yes? I`m listening.
(CROSSTALK)
NEJAME: Let`s be factual about this. As anybody should know...
TAAFFE: Who`s got the bullet holes, Mark?
NEJAME: Hold on, please. Hold on, please. I didn`t interrupt you. So all we`re asking for is -- in fact, is the truth. If somebody, in fact,
brandishes a weapon at somebody else, that`s enough to go ahead and shoot.
TAAFFE: That`s a misdemeanor.
NEJAME: You don`t wait for them.
TAAFFE: That`s a...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: That`s a misdemeanor, Mark. You know that.
NEJAME: ... wait for them to roll down -- hold on. You don`t wait for them to roll down the window and possibly take a bullet to the head.
If somebody pulls a weapon on you, you have every right under every state`s law for self-defense. And that`s what we`ve got there. It`s exactly what
we`ve got.
GRACE: Mark Nejame...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... what does your guy, Frank (sic) Apperson, say happened? And give it to me in a nutshell so that I can understand what led to the
shooting.
NEJAME: Very simply, they were near each other in the vehicle. They had had these prior encounters. All of a sudden, through the car window,
Mr. Apperson recognized George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman recognized Mr. Apperson. Mr. Zimmerman then pulled out his firearm, and Mr. Apperson then
got his.
(CROSSTALK)
[20:10:04]GRACE: OK, Taaffe, who am I supposed to believe, Apperson with no history or Zimmerman with a history as long as my right arm of gun
offenses, including shooting Trayvon Martin dead? Who do you think you should believe?
TAAFFE: I believe George, and I`ll tell you why. George has got the bullet hole. And it was a head shot. It wasn`t a warning shot. If he
felt that threatened...
GRACE: He wasn`t even scratched.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: According to the ambulance driver, he walked out without even a Band-Aid on his face.
NEJAME: But even more than that...
TAAFFE: Oh, here you go with your Band-Aid again!
NEJAME: Frank, you`re watching too many movies. A bullet outruns a car any day of the week, so don`t play that. It`s not like in the movies,
where you have a well placed shot.
TAAFFE: Mark...
NEJAME: The reality of it is, Frank, is...
TAAFFE: Mark and Nancy...
NEJAME: ... you initially supported Zimmerman, then you flip-flopped and then you were a detractor, and today you`re a supporter. Now, you`ve
got to make up your mind...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: All right, here`s the deal. Let me finish now. Here`s the deal. Yes and no. But the actions that were taken in Lake Mary...
NEJAME: That`s the (INAUDIBLE)
TAAFFE: The actions that were taken in Lake Mary -- Mark, hold on. The actions taken in Lake Mary was there was a shooter and somebody got
shot at. What are you going to do, just shake hands and walk away?
GRACE: Well, according to Zimmerman`s lawyer...
TAAFFE: OK? You got two narratives.
NEJAME: ... Mark Nejame -- Zimmerman`s lawyer says Zimmerman did not wave a gun. Now, you`ve got to decide credibility. Your guy, Mark Nejame,
called 911.
TAAFFE: He has to say that!
GRACE: All right? So long story short, it`s a credibility issue of who to believe. Do you know how many gun incidents, waving guns, pointing
guns, firing guns, threatening he`s going to kill people, that Zimmerman has? I can`t even count them all on two hands, Mark Nejame.
NEJAME: And Nancy, on top of that -- but I know the history is so long, but right after the acquittal, he was in a gun shop showing off on a
firearm here in central Florida. I mean, he seems to love the guns. So you`ve got a person who`s got a history of guns, you`ve got another
person...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: ... 2nd amendment right!
(CROSSTALK)
NEJAME: ... and you`ve got somebody who`s gone to law enforcement...
GRACE: OK, let`s listen to...
NEJAME: ... three different times!
GRACE: ... one of the 911 calls on Zimmerman. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Tell me why you need an officer. What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, I was simply driving down Lake Mary Boulevard, left my work to get a cup of coffee here. And I noticed a Honda Ridgeline
on Lake Mary Boulevard that was going the same rate of speed as I and rolled their window down.
I then rolled my window down, and there was a passenger going, Hey, what`s your problem? Why are you shaking your finger? I said, Excuse me?
I was in my car rapping to myself with my windows up.
And I looked over, and it`s George Zimmerman was the driver, and they were threatening to kick my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and to shoot me. I said,
What are you going to do, shoot me? I`m not messing with...
911 OPERATOR: OK, and you know this was George Zimmerman?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, for a fact. (INAUDIBLE) Ridgeline with a (INAUDIBLE) so I proceeded -- I have no cell phone. I proceeded to the
nearest gas station...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Watch right here, the cop disarming George Zimmerman.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... towards my car, almost hit my car (INAUDIBLE) and said he was going to shoot me dead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
[20:17:27]911 OPERATOR: 911 (INAUDIBLE) fire, medical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Hello?
911 OPERATOR: Yes. How can I help you, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a guy just said he had to pull a gun on a guy. And now a guy right here just said he had the shoot at someone
through his window, so he wants the police to come.
911 OPERATOR: That he saw -- shoot somebody out of his window?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do what?
911 OPERATOR: OK, say that again? He saw what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had to shoot at somebody.
911 OPERATOR: Is he there with you right now? He`s there with you right now, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The guy (INAUDIBLE) yes, he said he had to shoot...
911 OPERATOR: What business (ph) is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s -- he`s kind of outside on the street. He`s just standing out here.
911 OPERATOR: What kind of car is he driving?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s driving an Infinity. He said it was George Zimmerman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At this hour, breaking new details emerging in yet another shooting incident involving George Zimmerman, another gun-toting
altercation, this to the date practically of the date he walks free in the shooting death of an unarmed teen, Trayvon Martin, left face down dead in
the dirt after his altercation with George Zimmerman.
Joining me tonight, the lawyer for Matthew Apperson, who`s involved in the latest Zimmerman shooting. When is this guy going to jail?
Also with me, a special guest, Ken Cornell, who called 911 after the Zimmerman shooting this time. Ken Cornell, thank you for being with us.
What do you recall happening, Mr. Cornell?
KEN CORNELL, CALLED 911 ABOUT SHOOTING (via telephone): Well, we were getting out of the car after lunch, and a guy came driving up to me and
said, Please call 911. Please call 911. I just had to shoot someone.
And as you can tell by the call, I very confused and kind of, like (INAUDIBLE) I just shot someone. I shot George Zimmerman. Please call
911.
So I made the phone call, and was confused and shocked and trying to talk to the lady, and he`s in the background saying stuff. And he said he
had to shoot George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman (INAUDIBLE) saw a gun and so he shot back at George Zimmerman.
GRACE: Everyone, with me is Ken Cornell, who actually called 911 in this incident. Mr. Cornell, what was Matthew Apperson`s demeanor? Was he
upset? Was he bragging? Was he disturbed? Was he sorry? How did he seem to you?
CORNELL: Oh, he seemed disturbed and shaken. You could tell he was shaken up by the whole incident. He was -- he had a -- he was shaken. His
hands were shaking, and he was freaked out. You could tell that he was real nervous and said, you know, I shot George Zimmerman. Please call the
cops. It was -- it was -- it was shocking.
[20:20:17]GRACE: Did he say why he opened fire, why he had to pull a gun?
CORNELL: He said he saw a gun and he shot. He said this was an ongoing dispute between the two of them. This was about the third
incident. And when he saw the gun, he had to shoot.
GRACE: What is this to you -- Mark Nejame, lawyer for Apperson, and to the defender of George Zimmerman, Frank Taaffe -- let`s see both
gentlemen, please, Liz -- because Frank Taaffe, since when did Florida turn into the wild, wild West of about 115 years ago where you get mad at
somebody, and -- you know, your props don`t work on me, Taaffe. But when did it get...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... take out your gun and start firing? I mean, what if I had been driving along in my little minivan with my children in the back seat
when George Zimmerman takes out a gun again and starts threatening somebody?
TAAFFE: Mark, I love you like a brother. I just want to go back to something you said about a flip-flop.
GRACE: No! Answer that question, Taaffe!
TAAFFE: (INAUDIBLE) talk about a flip-flop -- well, you know, Zimmerman originally went to him to have him as a defense attorney. Now
who flip-flopped? Now you...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know what? Forget you.
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: No cojones. Nothing. (INAUDIBLE) nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, before I have to cut his mike, let`s get to...
TAAFFE: Why don`t you answer that?
GRACE: ... this incident right here because what I`m hearing, Nejame -- and we`re going to unleash the lawyers in just a moment, Kirby Clements
and Brad Cohen -- immediately, you hear Apperson telling his story. He immediately says Zimmerman was waving a gun. That`s not something he
thought up later. That`s something he said right then on the scene, Mark Nejame.
NEJAME: Of course. And even without getting into the rules of evidence, which of course, you know, this was an extemporaneous utterance.
This was an excited utterance. This is one of the best definitions we have of telling the truth. It happened simultaneously. And you heard the
person whose phone he used, the person you just had on, say that twice. He had to shoot him.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What about that, Taaffe? I mean, here`s a guy that says he`s wanting to call 911, and you`re claiming he`s the bad guy? Really? And
he`s saying call 911, Taaffe?
TAAFFE: How many road rage incidents are there in the United States today? Let`s go back to look at that, OK? People can`t...
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: ... brandishing weapons...
NEJAME: Let`s just go back to...
TAAFFE: OK, I`m back to it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re trying to make me look somewhere else.
TAAFFE: Nobody has to shoot a gun!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Why does Zimmerman keep pulling a gun? That`s my question.
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: But he wasn`t the shooter!
GRACE: ... go to jail?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:26:47]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a guy just said he had to pull a gun on a guy. He had to shoot at somebody. It was George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A weapon was recovered from George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Zimmerman. You can see the gunshot wound on the passenger side right there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with IR (ph) radio. Thanks for being with us. Rory, what do we know about Zimmerman`s
injuries?
RORY O`NEILL, RADIO REPORTER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, they`re very minor. He just went to the hospital and was released, even left an
hour later. And one of the first calls he made was to his lawyer to get this matter settled with the Lake Mary Police Department.
GRACE: What do you mean, to get this matter settled? What more do you know, Rory O`Neill?
O`NEILL: Well, Nancy, investigators aren`t releasing a whole lot of information. Both Mr. Apperson and Mr. Zimmerman acquired counsel pretty
rapidly, and that really put a hold as to detectives questioning both men. They did get search warrants for the two vehicles. Mr. Apperson`s was
searched right after the shooting. They were waiting to get to Mr. Zimmerman`s truck today.
That truck, by the way, has become infamous. Everyone knows to look for that gray Honda Ridgeline driving through central Florida. It`s been
tied to a lot of incidents.
GRACE: You know what? You`re so right about that. That gray Honda Ridgeline vehicle has been involved in so many altercations.
There was the last road rage incident he had, where we just showed you police disarming George Zimmerman. Then there are the girlfriends, several
girlfriends. In January, I think it was, one girlfriend says he assaulted her with a wine bottle. You`ve got another girlfriend. These charges were
dropped, by the way. Nobody ever had the guts to go forward.
Then you had the other girlfriend who called 911, and you can hear Zimmerman in the background. He`s trying to throw her out of her own
house, and he`s got a gun. Then you`ve got the wife claiming he pulled a gun and was roughing her and her father up.
I`m getting them all confused, there`s so many! So where does it stand now, Rory O`Neill? Where does the investigation stand?
O`NEILL: Right. No charges filed yet. The only part of that 911 call that we got was heavily redacted. We know that Zimmerman flagged down
the police officer after the shooting, and it`s his lawyer that says he was the one being pursued, even tried to pull a U-turn to avoid Apperson, and
then the shot was fired after that. But it was, again, just a minor injury and Zimmerman wasn`t really hurt.
GRACE: So people can be on public highways in the Orlando area and just start shooting at each other, and there are no criminal charges? I
mean, what about all the other people on the highway with children strapped in the back? I mean, what about them?
O`NEILL: And it`s on a very busy road, and I`m sure the Orlando tourism people would rather not have you make that comment, Nancy. But you
know -- and I think there is some heat for -- any other shooting of this kind, some charges would have been filed immediately at the scene or
somebody would have been thrown in handcuffs and let the judge settle this and a jury settle it. But so far, no arrests have been made.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:00]
GRACE: Live, Indianapolis, imagine going to sleep at night in your own home. Dad snoozing off, mom and daughter fall asleep later. 5:00
a.m., the grim reaper enters your house on a quiet, tree lined street. The grim reaper in the form of six parolees. After tying daddy up and
separating him from the women, mom and daughter kicked, shot, sex assaulted and forced to the ATM to withdraw thousands. Tonight, their story of
survival and the tough question, why were these thugs out of jail in the first place?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- shot and sexually assaulted when a group of men broke into her family`s Far North Side home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was obviously a very emotional experience to go through.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tenses (ph) daughter Allison was also sexually assaulted during the home invasion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends and family, the community has been so supportive, and we`re just really looking forward to the end of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:00]
GRACE: Straight out to Rita Cosby, investigative journalist and host of (inaudible). Rita, I can`t believe the level of violence this family
endured. What happened?
COSBY: It is just a horrific story, Nancy. This family is sound asleep, and then at 5:00 a.m., six parolees get into their home, the garage
door is open. They`re able to go through, then they get into the house.
GRACE: The family left the garage door slightly open, and that`s how they got in. Rita, I imagine those six thugs cased the whole neighborhood,
and they saw the weakness. They saw that garage door slightly open, and that was their in.
COSBY: Absolutely. And what a tragic end. So they get inside, then go up to the master bedroom, and they find Carl and Eileen Portenza (ph) in
the bedroom. It`s 5:00 a.m., it`s the wee hours of the morning, they`re sound asleep. They tie the father up.
GRACE: At first, Rita, didn`t the mom open her eyes and she sees, feels the presence of people in her bedroom, and she looks up and at first
thought, it was some kind of a weird prank like a joke. Until all of a sudden, all hell broke loose?
COSBY: Yes, exactly. She was trying to figure out what was going on. Needless to say, any family would be so startled to have this. You`re
woken up and she was trying to figure out what was happening, was disoriented, and then these guys tie the father in bed. Now, the father
has a neurological disease. He has to use braces to walk. So they physically tied him down, but they also held a gun to his head as they then
told the wife to go through the house and find items in the house. Also at this same time, the daughter came out, she is a 26-year-old daughter. She
came out and tried to give her wallet to the men, hoping that that would be enough, and that was only the beginning of their two-hour horrific
nightmare.
GRACE: Everyone, you are seeing shots of the family and their home. There you go. Those are the victims in this case. The mother, the father,
the older daughter -- the younger daughter was away at school. 5:00 a.m., they wake up to their worst nightmare. A home invasion. Six parolees spot
that their garage door is slightly open and they use that in to get into the family home. First, tying up the father, tying him to the bed. He can
only hear what happened then. The mother being shot in the leg as she tried to run to the phone. The daughter, the 20 something-year-old
daughter comes to the door, sees what`s going on, tries to save her mother by offering her money. Everything she had. What do they do? They take
the 20 something-year-old girl and repeatedly sex molest her. Over and over and over. At one point, she says she thinks she remembers three of
the men attacking her in the bathroom. Three of the men. Three, put up their faces, these parolees, three of these men at once sexually attacking
this young 20 something-year-old girl in the bathroom, as the father lies strapped to his bed, unable to get away and help them. The mom has been
shot in the leg. They go on to kick the mommy in the head. They sex assault the mother. And then what about the ATM?
COSBY: Well, at this point, they had combed the house, they had taken the daughter`s wallet. They shot the mother one time in the upper leg as
she was trying to make a phone call, and then she tried to run away again, they shot her again in the foot. And then they had raped the mother,
sexually assaulted the mother, and they said at this point, can you imagine this mother, Nancy? She`s been sexually assaulted, she`s been shot twice,
her husband is tied up. Her daughter is being tied up, and then they say we`re going to take you to the ATM. We need your money. They held her at
gunpoint as they drove her to an ATM while her other daughter unfortunately was being molested in the bathroom.
GRACE: To John Tompkins, attorney for Demetre Brown, one of the defendants in this case. Mr. Tompkins, how did this group -- thank you for
being with us, John. How did this group get together, John Tompkins?
JOHN TOMPKINS, ATTORNEY: Well, my client was one who was not a part of this group, and the physical evidence showed he was not a part of the
group, and he was in fact dismissed out of a companion case when similar charges against the other five, and my client was also not on parole.
The people who committed this were together the entire evening drinking and using drugs, and that`s according to the state`s witness, the
(inaudible) in this case.
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Ok. You`re saying your client, Demetre Brown, is not part of the group. So, was he not part of this home invasion?
TOMPKINS: The only physical evidence that was used against him was found in his home several days later, and no, he was never placed in the
home, and the DNA evidence and fingerprints never established he was in the home at all.
GRACE: Well, that`s very unusual, because he got sentenced to 248 years behind bars.
TOMPKINS: That`s correct, and we are fairly certain that that is going to come back and he`ll have a second trial.
GRACE: So, question to you, Rita Cosby, what places Demetre Brown in this scenario, because to hear his lawyer tell it, he had nothing to do
with any of this.
COSBY: Clearly, the grand jury and other people felt otherwise when they looked at the evidence, because he and the others have the equivalent
of multiple life sentences, including rape and robbery and everything else.
GRACE: A parent`s worst nightmare. As you and your children are asleep, home invasion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a lady who is in our bank right now, who says that her husband and children are being held at their house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance video shows a red van driving up to the house, and three masked men getting out. Two of the men carried long
guns. The third carries a handgun. A second video shows two men dressed in black running from nearby woods to the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People came in and they just tied us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says the attackers bound the four of them with duct tape, holding them at gunpoint for 15 minutes before leaving with
cash, laptops and jewelry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deadly home invasion first into this house, when a woman and a 12-year-old boy tied up during the robbery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four men stormed into this Stockton home demanding money and jewelry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have the gun in my face, I said either I`m dead or I`m dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone busted open the door of this family home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I came in, I heard a gunshot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two suspects kicked in the door of this Northwest Valley home. That`s when a gun battle began between the suspects
and the man who lives here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:00]
GRACE: To Houston suburbs, police probing a Texas family after twin babies, 15 month old twin baby girls, Savannah and Sabrina, die in the
family bathtub. In the last hours, mommy breaks into a beaming smile as she`s arrested for the drowning deaths of her 15-month-old twin girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They arrest Barbara Ramirez Sefuentes (ph), who is charged in the death of her twin girls. As she is led away in handcuffs,
she appeared to smile broadly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A helicopter races a 15 month old girl to Memorial Herman hospital. A second helicopter is close behind carrying her twin
sister. Police say the girls were found unresponsive in the bathtub at this home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anytime a child is home, a child is injured, we`re going to investigate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Nik Rajkovic with KTRH. Nik, thank you for being with us. What happened?
RAJKOVIC: Well, Nancy, good evening to you. The mother here, Barbara, she put the girls in a bathtub, left them there with the water,
went to another room, put some music on and then started cleaning the rest of the house. She`s now charged with two counts of manslaughter after the
girls drowned in that bathtub.
GRACE: OK. I don`t know even know if they could walk yet, and she left them in the tub. Question to you, Dr. William Morrone, joining us,
forensic pathologist, renowned medical examiner out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, the autopsy says homicide, and there`s got to be a way that
medical examiners can tell if it`s an accidental drowning versus a homicide. Remember Andrea Yates where the baby girl fought so hard to
live? She was -- she drowned, but she was covered with bruises?
MORRONE: That`s the word.
GRACE: Tell me, how do you determine an innocent, well, there`s no innocent drowning, but an accidental drowning versus a homicide?
MORRONE: Here`s a big thing. Hard objects do not compress or bruise. Soft babies, soft babies bruise, especially if a soft baby is put up
against a hard object like a bathtub. You also have indirect bruises, which are on the face of the tub, and direct bruises that are caused by the
holding under or the squeezing. A baby just falling in water and not being able to get up is not going to have any bruises. If the autopsy`s clear
about bruises, that`s homicide. That`s cause of death. That`s manner of death.
GRACE: So, my question to you, Dr. Morrone, is the medical examiner, the autopsy clearly states homicide. We know that they drowned. That`s
cause of death. But what in that autopsy report would suggest homicide, not accidental drowning?
MORRONE: An accidental drowning could also be that the mother or the caregiver is present and attempts to prevent what happened. If you
intervene, then that`s not homicide. An accident is things happen and fate rules the day. In homicide, you set it up and you let it happen or you
purposely cause it to happen.
GRACE: Here`s my question to Nik Rajkovic, joining me, KTRH. When mommy is pulled over in the last hours and arrested, she actually beams.
[20:50:00]
She is smiling when they tell her you`re being arrested in the homicides of your two infant daughters.
RAJKOVIC: That`s correct, Nancy. She was caught on the toll road cameras here in Houston. They got her license plate. This is after the
indictment came down last week. They caught up with her. Police did. They pulled her over. She is smiling, almost appearing like it`s a joke of
somewhat. She was asking the police officers why so many officers. She didn`t know what she did. She was a little bit out of it, one of the
investigators said. Obviously maybe in shock or what have you after the twins` death a couple of months ago.
GRACE: Really, unleash the lawyers. Kirby Clements, Bradford Cohen and also with me, psychiatrist, Dr. Ish Major. Kirby Clements, why is she
smiling when they tell her why she is being arrested? What is that about?
CLEMENTS: You know, Nancy, I can`t get into this woman`s head. But we have no idea that`s what they are telling her. They could have been
cracking a joke at that particular point in time.
GRACE: Are you serious?
CLEMENTS: I`m absolutely serious.
GRACE: That`s the best you got for me? The cops might be cracking a joke.
CLEMENTS: The cops could have said something funny to her. I doubt very seriously right then and there we`re witnessing them say we`re
charging you with murder, and she starts beaming smiling. That`s not what`s happening.
GRACE: Did you hear, Nik Rajkovic? She said that she gets pulled over. She didn`t understand why she was being arrested, and then they tell
her, Brad Cohen, they tell her, and she turns around with a big smile on her face.
CLEMENTS: I`m telling the way that went down --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Brad?
COHEN: My defense would be that there would be some psychological issue that is going on there. It might not be that she murdered the
children. It could be that that`s her reaction to the children dying and now she is getting arrested, that psychologically she is broken. She just
had two babies pass away, and, you know, how does that affect anyone? Who knows.
GRACE: Okay. You heard Brad Cohen right there, Dr. Major. I don`t know if you have got some type of psychological excuse that you can give
me, a reason why she would be smiling when cops just told her she is arrested in the homicide of her two little infants.
MAJOR: Nancy, here is the excuse. A picture is worth a thousand words. So that inappropriate smile or laughter tells me she also had an
inappropriate grip or an ineffective grip on reality. It doesn`t look like she had touch with reality to make a good decision at that point is what it
looks like to me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:35]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watch in this exclusive video they arrest Barbara Ramirez Sifuentes. As she is led away in handcuffs, she appeared
to smile broadly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw them bring out the twins. They were lifeless, doing CPR on them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was pulled over. As you can see from the video, the arrest came without incident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Nik Rajkovic. Nik, explain to me. So she says, her story is she puts her two infants in the bathtub. She goes in the living
room and turns on the music?
RAJKOVIC: Well, that`s correct. She left the 15-month-old twin girls in the bathtub with water. Goes into another room, puts music on, and
starts cleaning the house. That`s the story she told police.
GRACE: And do we know what her demeanor was when police got there? I mean, who made the 911 call? Did she call?
RAJKOVIC: I believe it was her. She was there with an uncle of the children, and also a 3-year-old brother, a 3-year-old son that she has as
well. I remember the life flight having been to be called in to the school next door. She appeared to be grieving, I remember at the time of the
arrest. But then again, who knows what really happened.
GRACE: It is true, Nik, that CPS has been in the home before, child protective services?
RAJKOVIC: Yes. There is a report that CPS was involved with the older brother of these twins before the twins were born. But there was no
details on that. CPS isn`t really talking about why they got involved with the family.
GRACE: Back to you, Dr. William Morrone. What should we be looking for in this case physically?
MORRONE: Physically, we need to have a reconstruction. How big was the bathtub? How much water was in the bathtub, and how long were the
children exposed? Was there any extra soap in the water? And X-rays on autopsy. We need to see full body X-rays of both children.
GRACE: I`m just wondering why you say that about the extra soap.
MORRONE: Well, if somebody puts you in a tub and they really do intend to wash you, there will be more things there than just water. But
if somebody is putting you in a tub with the intent to do damage, unless there is really good planning and ulterior motives, I just wonder whether
it`s a really, really bad parent or somebody acting out under stress with (inaudible).
GRACE: You say if she was really bathing the babies, there would be soap in there. And if she wasn`t, there would not?
MORRONE: Oh, yes, absolutely. No More Tears.
GRACE: Interesting. I hadn`t thought about the soap aspect. With me, Dr. William Morrone. Everyone, let`s remember American hero military
spouse of the year, Corie Weathers, serving alongside her husband, Chaplain Matthew Weathers, for 11 years, an award winning counselor, providing
therapy to military families, voice for the community. Her goal, to shine the light on the mental state of military spouses. Mother of two sons,
Aiden and Jackson, Corie Weathers, American hero.
Tonight we`re all wearing turquoise in support of American Lung Association`s lung force. Lung cancer the No. 1 killer of women, more than
breast cancer. For more info, go to lungforce.org.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
