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Nancy Grace
Duggar Family Scandal. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 04, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. The wildly popular TLC reality show seen here, "19 Kids and Counting," featuring the
ultrareligious Duggar family in a tailspin after one of the Duggars, Josh Duggar, now 27 years old with three children of his own, accused of
molesting young girls.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, the Duggar family sex victims break their silence amid claims of a cover-up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Duggar family breaking their silence after a molestation scandal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re the Duggars.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Josh is our oldest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Documents reveal that Josh was 15 years old when he molested his 5-year-old sister.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to deal with those situations. You have to explain. You have to talk about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he touched her breasts and vaginal area while reading her a book on his lap. He put his hand up her skirt in the
laundry room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was video of "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
And we go live as police reveal a murdered CEO, his young wife, 10-year-old son and their housekeeper, quote, "bound and tortured" overnight in their
D.C. mansion, the house then set on fire, reports the little boy separated, isolated from Mommy and Daddy, then tortured to extort major money from
Daddy.
Police hone in on one of the killers, 34-year-old Daron Wint. How did they isolate him? DNA from saliva he leaves on the pizza he orders from
Domino`s and eats during the brutal murders.
Breaking right now, reports photos texted of the family`s cash money, $40,000, the same money they were allegedly slaughtered dead over. And
tonight, as the killer`s tennis shoes covered with the victims` blood, what roles will missing cell phones play as the defense emerges? Hey, he
doesn`t even like pizza!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an intense 48-hour manhunt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police arrested Daron Wint for the murders. The two surviving sisters stood outside St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral as
their mom, dad and brother were led away to burial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators believe more people were involved in the crime but have yet to make any more arrests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The wildly popular TLC reality show seen here, "19 Kids and Counting," features the ultrareligious Duggar family, in a tailspin
after one of the Duggars, Josh Duggar, now 27 with 3 children of his own, accused of molesting multiple young girls. As we go to air tonight, the
Duggar family sex victims break their silence amid claims of a cover-up.
I want to go straight out to Alan Duke, editor-in-chief with Leadstories.com. Alan, thank you so much for being with us. The interview
is out there now. Before I talk to you about what`s happening, I want you to take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: We felt like that, going from a perspective of really reaching his heart first would be important, and so that`s the
reason we sent him down to Little Rock to work with this man. And that really...
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Did legal ever pop into your mind, like...
(CROSSTALK)
JIM BOB DUGGAR: We`re the parents.
KELLY: ... legal obligations?
JIM BOB DUGGAR: You know what? As parents, you`re not mandatory reporters. You are -- the law allows for parents to do what they think`s
best for their child.
(INAUDIBLE) were -- girls were, like, laying on the couch, and it was a -- and he had touched, like, over the couch and actually touched their breasts
while they were asleep, and so, you know, over the clothes.
Again, this was not rape or anything like that. This was, like, touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he
touched them under their clothes. But it was, like, a few seconds.
And then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. And -- and it was after that third time he came to us is where we really felt
like, You know what? We have done everything we can as parents to handle this in-house. We need to get help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the Duggars during an exclusive interview on FOX`s "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly.
Back to you, Alan Duke, with Leadstories.com. I want to analyze what I just heard.
Everybody, you`re seeing shots of the Duggar family. It`s a very popular show, "19 Kids and Counting." This is an ultrareligious family, and
there`s some arguments being made that they are being singled out and attacked because they are Christian.
[20:05:10]Alan Duke, I believe that there are groups, pockets of people, that take joy in the misfortune of others that present themselves as
Christians. That`s true. That`s going to happen. When you put it out there that you`re a Christian and then you do something wrong or somebody
in your family does something wrong, everybody seems to just love that. I don`t know if you`ve ever noticed that.
This is "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
But that said, Alan Duke, that said, to say the words, "It`s not like it`s rape" -- all right, that did not go down well with me at all. And you
know, I`ll put it out there. I`m a Christian, or at least I try to be, and that did not set well with me at all, to say, Well, it`s not rape.
And he starts talking -- I`m talking about Mr. Duggar -- starts talking about now, Well, it was just for a few moments and the girls were asleep.
But that`s not true, Alan Duke. There were other incidents.
You`re still seeing "19 Kids and Counting."
What do we know, Alan? You tell me.
ALAN DUKE, LEADSTORIES.COM: He`s describing sexual molestation, which -- your -- the office you worked in as a prosecutor I`m sure many times
prosecuted people and sent them to prison for that same kind of touching, maybe not a 15-year-old, but that`s sexual molestation. It doesn`t have to
be defined as rape.
But as far as them being persecuted because they`re Christians, sounds to me like somebody who just wanted to give a tip to "InTouch" and knew
something, called and "InTouch" then followed up by contacting the police chief. I don`t think you can say that the police were prosecuting them.
GRACE: Well, I think that they`re probably being target not so much because they`re Christian but because they`re famous.
DUKE: Right.
GRACE: You know? And somebody knows -- had to know about this to tip off "InTouch." "InTouch" magazine then files a FOIA, Freedom of Information
Act, request to get the police reports and the documents. Somebody had to tip them off because they had to know what documents to ask for.
You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
But Alan Duke, my point is, yes, to my understanding of the facts as they exist right now -- and they`re changing, it`s very fluid -- three of the
molestations, the touching incidents, occurred while one or more girls were asleep on a sofa at separate times, according to a police report, released
by "InTouch" magazine.
All right, but there`s another incident we know of where a 5-year-old little girl -- it`s suggested -- it`s a sister -- a 5-year-old little girl
is sitting in his lap. He`s 15 now, we think. And he reaches under her clothes and touches her vaginal area and her breasts as he`s reading her a
book.
According to a police report released by "InTouch" magazine, later she`s in the -- don`t know if it`s the same day -- she`s in a laundry room and
reaches up her skirt.
OK, when you are touching a child underneath their underwear and touching their vagina or their vaginal area, that is child molestation. Boom! How
do you get around that?
DUKE: Yes. Exactly. They seem to be ignorant of the law if they`re trying to suggest that it wasn`t a felony. He was 15 years old, and I`m
not sure...
GRACE: A minor.
DUKE: ... he would have been prosecuted for that or what would have happened in the juvenile system. But definitely as an adult, that is
blatant sexual molestation.
GRACE: Well, Alan, he would have been prosecuted as a juvenile. He may have done, you know, six months to a year in juvie jail, which is like a
dormitory.
But that`s not all. We know of now seven admitted incidents, according to a police report released by "InTouch" magazine.
Take a listen to what the Duggar family has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR: He had just turned 14, and he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters.
MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: I think as parents, we felt, Oh, we`re failures! You know, here we tried to raise our kids to do what`s right, to know
what`s right, and yet one of our children made some really bad choices.
JIM BOB DUGGAR: He said he was just curious about girls and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were
sleeping. They didn`t even know he had done it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the Duggars, the mother and father, during an exclusive interview on FOX`s "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly.
OK, to you, Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter, Radaronline.com. Now, I`ve got an inconsistency here. Now, they said that the initial touching, where
the girls were asleep on the sofa, he was 13, or just turned 14.
[20:10:03]Then there are incidents where the girls are asleep in their bedroom, and he goes in there in the night. But this -- and they go, Uh-
oh, we`ve got a problem. But yet this last incident, where he`s touching the 5-year-old girl`s bare vagina, he`s 15.
So over a year elapsed before he got treatment? Is that right? What was the treatment?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: That`s exactly right. And that has been the major criticism, that the Duggar parents did nothing about this
outside of their home and that they waited 16 months, in fact, to go to the police.
But the one thing that they have said that they did for treatment was, is they sent him to a rehabilitation center. It`s a Christian center. The
thing is, the police report actually...
GRACE: Well, wait. A rehabilitation center?
TERESZCUK: Correct, in Little Rock, Arkansas. And that`s where the -- it was done by their church and it was somewhere that they felt that Josh
could get help.
However, Michelle Duggar admits in the police report that he didn`t actually receive any counseling and what he did was hard labor. He built a
new dorm room for the center.
GRACE: OK. Alan Duke, isn`t it true that the Duggars...
Everybody, you`re seeing video from "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
Isn`t it true the Duggars actually sent him to work with a family friend?
DUKE: Right. This wasn`t a psychological center. This wasn`t rehab in the professional sense. It was a church-based organization that was run by
a friend in Little Rock. So to call that rehab...
GRACE: What church-based organization? What church-based organization is that? I know it`s about 200 miles away, but what is it?
DUKE: I couldn`t tell you the name of it right now, but it wasn`t a psychological center.
GRACE: So did they really go to a rehab or a facility, or did he just go stay with a friend?
DUKE: That`s a good question. I don`t know the answer to that. I think - - I think it`s probably staying with a friend and they called it rehab.
GRACE: OK, Clark Goldband, what do we know?
Everybody, you`re seeing the children and the family of "19 Kids and Counting." They claim they`re being attacked because they`re Christians.
Or is it because they`re rich?
What about it, Clark? Where did he go for rehab? That`s my question.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, according to a police report obtained by "InTouch" magazine -- again, we`re not able to obtain
this report, but according to "InTouch," it was with a friend of the family who, according to this report, helped counsel him spiritually while he also
did hard labor.
Now, Nancy, Jim Bob, the dad, first said that he apparently went to some sort of a rehab center, but the mom then clarified that it was actually a
family friend.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Anne Bremner, Jeff Gold and Ashley Wilcott, certified child welfare law specialist.
Let`s see all three of the lawyers, please. First of all, to you, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer joining me out of New York. What the
father says is, It`s not mandatory that I report this. OK, true.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: True.
GRACE: In our Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence system, which we brought from the Saxons, over here from Great Britain...
BREMNER: (INAUDIBLE) right, Nancy.
GRACE: ... there`s no duty to report wrongdoing.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: You don`t go to jail for that.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: But here`s my problem. It`s not just reporting your son, all right, because nobody wants to send their son to jail. So they`re
thinking, should we do psychological treatment? What shall would do? Well, they did nothing for about a year-and-a-half, and more molestations
occurred during that time.
But what about the daughters? They`re parents to all the daughters, too. What`s right for them, not just the boy?
BREMNER: Well, yes. But the thing is, is that there`s a moral duty, and then there`s a legal duty. And with the daughters, they talk -- they
minimize this, of course. They`re talking about conduct that probably is not a felony. It`s probably a misdemeanor in any event back then. And
what they`re saying is, We don`t have a duty to report.
This case, Nancy, it`s all over except for the shouting. The statutes have run. There`s no way it can be prosecuted. There`s no way a civil case is
coming because of the statute of limitations in both instances. So...
GRACE: OK, you know what? You`re really getting out there in the weeds.
BREMNER: No, I`m not!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: It`s a very simple question.
BREMNER: No, I`m not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: This is "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
BREMNER: But my point, Nancy -- my point, Nancy -- I`m in the weeds, but hear me out. I want to come back out of weeds (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Please get to the point.
BREMNER: OK. Why are we all talking about this right now?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me go to Ashley Wilcott, certified child welfare law specialist. Ashley, what about it?
ASHLEY WILCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE LAW SPECIALIST (via telephone): Well, Nancy, first of all, it`s sexual abuse, period. It happened. And
the thing that bothers me the most is that there were three different confessions to the father and that there were multiple incidents and
multiple victims.
Bottom line, yes, a parent has a right to parent their child, and that`s their choice how they do that. But once something occurs regarding sexual
abuse, a parent has got to get professional, qualified treatment for that child and has got to ensure that there`s no unsupervised contact between
that child and other children to protect any other future victims.
[20:15:08]And I don`t see that was done in this case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police report says Josh Duggar admitted to sexually molesting four of his sisters plus a family friend. Jim Bob told
police Josh told him that he had been sneaking into his sister`s room at night and had been touching his sisters on the breasts and vaginal areas
while they were sleeping.
MICHELLE DUGGAR: There`s Jim Bob, my wonderful husband, and our children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And his parents...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They described the molestation as improper touching and emphasized it was not rape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video from "19 kids an counting" from TLC.
Tonight, claims of a cover-up, one of the Duggar children, now a grown man with children of his own, accused of molesting children, little girls. Is
there a cover-up?
[20:20:05]This is what we know. We know that there are at least seven incidents where Josh Duggar reportedly molests young girls. According to a
police report released by "InTouch" magazine, we know the parents know about it. They say they knew about it. Why didn`t they act?
We know that based on the timeline that we`re getting, he actually confessed to them what he had done, but it was about a year-and-a-half
later before they sent him to some kind of counseling, which appears to be just going to live with a family friend. Not clear on that. In that
interim, other girls molested.
To Alan Duke, editor-in-chief, Leadstories.com. I want you to take a listen to more sound from the Duggar family, including one of the alleged
sex victims speaking out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don`t have a right to do this! We`re victims! They can`t do this to us!
KELLY: And yet they did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their
life, and the ones that are affected by those choices. It`s just -- it`s greatly failed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, those are two of the Duggar girls in an exclusive interview on FOX`s "The Kelly File."
And Alan Duke, editor-in-chief, Leadstories.com, I hear what they`re saying. They`re saying that for whatever reason, they did not want this to
go public. And typically, traditionally, sex victims are not outed. But they were in this case. And I don`t like that, either. That`s not fair to
them.
DUKE: Well, the reason they`re outed in this case is their parents chose to put them on a reality television show, or else we`d never know who they
were. Keep that in mind. And they weren`t...
GRACE: Putting them on a reality show is not the same as outing them as sexual victims, Alan Duke!
DUKE: Right.
GRACE: Shame, shame, shame on you!
DUKE: Well, I agree, but to get to the point there, is that I don`t believe the police report didn`t actually name them, but we put it all
together because of the reality show. And these girls are being victimized again by being put on television to try to save their show.
GRACE: To Alison Arngrim, National Association to Protect Children, sex molestation victim herself -- you`ll recall her as Nellie Olson from
"Little House on the Prairie."
Alison, thank you for being with us. Did you hear what the girls said, distraught that they had been outed? And you know what? A lot of sex
molestation victims feel that way. They don`t want it out there. They don`t want to prosecute. They want to deal with it their way.
ALISON ARNGRIM, NAT. ASSOCIATION TO PROTECT CHILDREN: There`s so much "no" in this interview, I don`t even know where to start. If a 1-year-old child
is sexually assaulted, does the 1-year-old child know what happened to them? Do we ask the 1-year-old child if they wish to prosecute or have the
person arrested?
This idea of minimizing these children`s abuse, saying that they were asleep, so that that somehow it makes it better -- my friends who were
sexually abused while they were asleep have lifelong trauma. They can`t sleep with the lights out. They can`t sleep at all. Abusing someone when
they`re asleep is almost the worst thing you could do to them.
This idea that a family molester somehow gets a free pass because they`re - - - if someone who wasn`t related to these children had done this, everyone would be up in arms. But again, people are rallying around the person, the
perpetrator, because it`s someone they know.
And if you`re a parent and your children are being sexually abused by anyone, you don`t wait a year-and-a-half to get help. And if it`s your
child who`s doing it, if they are, in fact, really young and you think they`re ill, then it`s all the more reason. If your child was setting
fires in the house, would you wait until he burned the house down before getting help?
GRACE: You know, everyone, Alison Arngrim is with us. You may know her as Nellie on "Little House on the Prairie." That`s video of her from CBS
Television Distribution.
Alison, you could not have said it more perfectly because, yes, no parent wants to turn in their son. Nobody wants to think of your son, even
knowing he did something horribly wrong, being imprisoned.
But what about the girls that were too young to stand up for themselves?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:28:28]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are defending how they handled the molestation allegations against their son, Josh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why they chose to do the reality show even after finding out Josh had inappropriately touched four of his sisters...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, to call it inappropriate touching -- you`re seeing video from "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC. Now, it`s been taken off the air for now.
But I will, before I get into the crux of these claims, these child molestation claims -- didn`t -- Alan Duke, didn`t they run in the midst of
all this, like, a whole weekend, "19 Kids and Counting" marathon, and then they were shamed and then took it off, right?
DUKE: Well, there was a lag there. I mean, it takes time for these things to percolate down. But TLC`s been -- has not actually made a decision on
the future of the show. It`s only been two weeks, so...
GRACE: All right, did they run a marathon...
DUKE: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: ... Alan Duke?
DUKE: They ran some, yes.
GRACE: As this broke! Let`s just be clear, as this broke. And I like TLC. But as this story broke about potential child molestation with the
Duggar family on "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC that you`re seeing right now, they chose to run a Duggar family marathon as this whole thing broke,
all right?
Now, I don`t know what that says. That`s not my concern. My concern is these child molestation victims, who you have just heard say, We didn`t
want this outed. But what is right and what`s wrong -- did the parents wait for a year-and-a-half before they did anything, and during that time,
more molestations occurred?
Everybody keeps calling it inappropriate touching. He had his hand on her bare vagina, according to a police report released by "InTouch" magazine,
all right, that we know of. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The subsequent incidents after the first one involved daughters who were awake or at least a couple of them.
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: There was a couple, yes. And they didn`t really - -
KELLY: So there`s a --
J. DUGGAR: They didn`t really understand, though.
KELLY: Yes. What --
J. DUGGAR: What happened because we wouldn`t talk --
(CROSSTALK)
MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: It was more of his heart, his intent. He knew.
J. DUGGAR: Right.
M. DUGGAR: That he -- it was wrong. But in theirs, they weren`t even aware. It was like, you know, it wasn`t to them -- they didn`t probably
even understand that it was improper touch.
KELLY: Did you ever worry that the treatment didn`t work? Especially with so many young children in the house.
J. DUGGAR: No. No. Josh was a changed person. And you can --
(CROSSTALK)
M. DUGGAR: And we didn`t -- and we still had those safeguards in place. I mean, it`s like -- there were a lot of things that changed in our
understanding as parents with, you know, this first child, first son, you know, to come to this place in his life we`re like, there`s things that
we`ve learned even since then that I think, you know what? We don`t let boys babysit. We don`t let -- you know, they don`t play hide and seek
together. Two don`t go off and hide.
I mean, there`s just a lot of things that we`ve put in place and we said, you know, you`re not alone in a room with someone else. You always be out
visible. And, you know, little ones don`t sit on big boy`s laps or people that you don`t know or even family members unless it`s your daddy. You
know, and so we just -- there`s boundaries that we`ve learned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s the Duggars during an exclusive interview on FOX`s "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly.
I want to go back to you, Alan Duke and Teresa Tereszcuk, on the story.
You`re also seeing a lot of footage of "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC. This was the Duggar mom and the Duggar dad trying to explain to Megyn their
actions, why they did or did not react.
OK, Alan Duke, what does it amount to? We`ve had the defense attorneys -- I think it was Anne Bremner blurted out that hey, the statute of
limitations just run. So why are we even talking about it? You know what? The fact that nothing was ever done at the time does not mean it didn`t
happen. It happened, Alan.
ALAN DUKE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, LEADSTORIES.COM: They`re trying to save their show, is what it comes down to. They`re not running for political office,
although they`re involved in politics. They`re trying to save the show and this is a well-orchestrated media event in order to do that.
GRACE: OK. Alexis?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, SENIOR REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: The Duggars actually have been called very hypocritical because in the past few years they have
become very public with their political actions. They have stumped for many candidates who have incredibly conservative views. Michelle Duggar,
in fact, did a robo-call talking about how transgender people in a bathroom could be harming little girls.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
TERESZCUK: People feel that`s very hypocritical with her own son.
GRACE: All right. Alexis, I don`t have a taste for politics so don`t care. I don`t know how to put it gently about who they do or don`t vote
for. What I care about, what is right and wrong in this scenario.
You know, Alison Arngrim, you`re a child molestation victim and it completely affected your entire life. Your whole life has changed. So
maybe you could school Alan Duke and Alexis Tereszcuk about what molestation does to a child as they grow into a woman.
ALISON ARNGRIM, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION TO PROTECT CHILDREN: Well, trauma has an actual physical effect on the brain as well as emotionally and
psychologically. And no matter what you say or if your perpetrator says, gee, I`m sorry or you say you forgive them, that doesn`t change the fact
that you have been physically and mentally traumatized. That`s why sexual abuse of children is a crime.
That`s why we have mandated reporters and I`ve never heard a parent say, gee, my child is being abused. Glad I`m not a mandated reporter. That`s
not a normal thing people say. So there`s something very wrong there.
To ignore the issue, to put everything ahead of the victims, is so horrible. One of the problems of being abused as a child is the lack of
trust. Who do you trust to protect you? And here, if your older brother, who`s the person after your father supposed to protect you, you can`t trust
him. You can`t trust your parents to do the right thing. Who do you trust for the rest of your life?
GRACE: Alison Arngrim joining us. You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
[20:34:53]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We go live and police reveal a murdered CEO, his young wife, 10- year-old son and their housekeeper bound and tortured overnight in the D.C. mansion. Then the house set on fire. Police hone in on one of the
killers, 34-year-old Daron Wint. DNA from Wint`s saliva left on the pizza he orders and eats during the brutal murders.
Breaking right now. Reports that photos were texted of the victim`s cash money. $40,000. The same money the family is allegedly slaughtered dead
over.
[20:40:11] And tonight, is the killer`s tennis shoes covered with the victims` blood? What role will missing cell phone plays in this
investigation? As the defense emerges, hey, he doesn`t even like pizza.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The daughters of Savvas and Amy Savopoulos s said good-bye to their parents and little brother Philip. So far police have
arrested one suspect, 34-year-old Daron Wint.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For the first time police are identifying Savvas Savopoulos` assistant as Jordan Wallace who allegedly dropped off $40,000
in cash just hours before the family was killed and their home set on fire. Wint remains the lone suspect but police say they believe he had help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mike Murillo from WTOP.
Mike, thank you for being with us. Can we connect the perp Wint to the assistant that -- that got that $40,000, Jordan Wallace?
MIKE MURILLO, REPORTER, WTOP NEWSRADIO: Right now we can`t but police did deliver and execute a search warrant on Jordan Wallace`s car. Jordan
Wallace is the assistant of Savvas Savopoulos. He`s also the one who police say dropped off the money at the home. At first he lied to police
saying he didn`t know what was in the envelope he was leaving behind at the home. And then he changed his story down the road leading police to do a -
- execute a search warrant on his car.
Well, they`re looking for anything, cameras, any type of money wrappers, banking documents, anything to connect him to what happened in that home.
GRACE: In addition to questions swirling about Jordan Wallace, he has not been arrested at this moment.
Joining me right now, Robin Ficker, this is the Wint family attorney. Daron Dylan Wint, age 34, now being held in connection with the murders of
an entire family.
Mr. Ficker, it`s my understanding if I recall clearly just a few days ago you said straight to my face, he doesn`t even like pizza.
ROBIN FICKER, SUSPECT FAMILY`S ATTORNEY: It`s true. He --
GRACE: Were you serious?
FICKER: I`m very serious. Look. If someone puts their DNA on pizza, which is delivered outside a home, and then 12 hours later at that home
someone is killed, you can`t be Carl Lewis and make an Olympic winning long jump and connect the two. Why don`t they start looking at the people who
were involved in civil litigation with Mr. Savoloupolos` father, Phil who worked for American Ironworks? Why don`t they start looking at Mr.
Figueroa who just recently married the housekeeper that was murdered --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. Let`s just --
FICKER: -- who came from -- came from South America.
GRACE: Hey. I`ve got an idea for you, Ficker. Why don`t you look at those little green men that come down from Mars? I bet they did it. What
about their blood being on your guy`s tennis shoes? Forget the pizza. I don`t need the pizza even though his DNA is all over it. The DNA matched
up because CODIS, which was the DNA bank, like a fingerprint bank, like APHIS. So they had his on file from his last convictions.
So his DNA match, your theory is what? He went up on their porch. He ate their pizza and left it? The pizza was inside the house. Hello.
So forget about the pizza. Let`s talk about their blood on your guy`s tennis shoes. How did that happen, Ficker?
FICKER: They arrested Mr. Wint one week after the murders. They say he had a couple little flecks of blood and they only analyzed that blood three
weeks after the murders.
GRACE: So?
FICKER: They analyzed the DNA on the pizza in one day. What took them so long? They won`t say --
GRACE: Because your guy was on the run. Hello. They had to go through New York, all up and down the Eastern Seaboard. That`s why they didn`t get
his shoes.
FICKER: They won`t -- that`s why they didn`t get the shoes.
GRACE: Yes.
FICKER: But what took them so long to analyze the blood after they got the shoes? They won`t say which victim`s blood it is. They won`t say which
officers have released this blood. I think they`ve made this up out of whole cloth and they`re not going to introduce any evidence in trial of
blood on his shoes. They`re trying to influence the court of public opinion. This is the same U.S. attorney`s office that said two years ago
they were going to indict Mayor Gray and still haven`t done it.
GRACE: OK. You know what? Mr. Ficker, you have pointed the finger. Now you dragged in the mayor which -- that`s a whole another can of worms. All
right. Let`s try to get you back in the middle of the road and talk about your former client, you`re the family attorney for Wint, 34-year-old Wint.
Now if there`s his saliva on the pizza that`s found in the home that he ate during the killings, you say that doesn`t prove he went in the home. That
he doesn`t like pizza.
[20:45:05] All right. Two, victims` blood on his tennis shoe. You said they waited two weeks before thye analyzed it. All right. Then why did
your guy go on the run? Why did he leave his home and go on the run alluding police? Because when I see a cop in my rear view window, I don`t
take off at 90 miles an hour. I stop and pull over and pray I don`t get a ticket.
What did your guy go on the run? Why about that?
FICKER: If the mayor of D.C. put Nancy Grace`s picture --
GRACE: Here you go again with the mayor.
FICKER: -- on a poster and called her a murderer, I think Nancy Grace might high tail it, too. They labeled him. They went for a group grope.
A rush to judgment. What they should have done was look at the insiders in this case. They should have looked at the people who --
GRACE: Who used to work for him like your client?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:11] GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Robin Ficker, Anne Bremner, Jeff Gold.
OK, Jeff Gold, you heard a mountain of evidence against Mr. Wint but let`s talk about Wallace for a moment. That`s the father`s assistant that
delivered the 40 grand. He says he doesn`t recall the money but he took photos of it and texted it to his friends. Thoughts?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think necessarily that that means that he`s guilty of anything other than taking a shot of it, maybe sending
it to his girlfriend or whatever else, to say look whoa, look what was inside this package, and he wasn`t supposed to open the package. It`s
reasonable to believe no one told him someone was being held hostage and there`s money in here. So he just opened it up, saw this cash and said,
holy molly and sent the text out. I don`t think there`s anything to connect him, you know, other than that one act right now.
GRACE: To Dr. Michelle Dupre, forensic pathologist joining me out of Columbia, the other -- the adults died a certain type of injury but the
little boy`s death was sharp object attack and thermal injuries. What are thermal injuries leading to death?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, thermal injuries are injuries from a fire that can be actual burns
on the skin. It can also be death from any type of carbon monoxide that might happen. But injuries that are associated with the fire itself.
GRACE: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, the thinking behind having a pizza while you`re torturing and killing your victims?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: We`re talking about a real psychopath here with no empathy, no guilt, as if this boy was an object to
be toyed with.
GRACE: You know, Ben Levitan, there are missing cell phones.
Ben joining me out of Raleigh, a telecommunications security expert.
And how would this guy have known how to disable their video system in their home security?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, yes. We`ve got to look at the -- Mr. Wint`s phone records and see who he called. Did he call
Mr. Wallace? Did he call Domino`s Pizza? Did he call somebody who would know something about the alarm system? It`s not that difficult. An alarm
system is not that difficult to disable, Nancy. And besides, the family was at home. It`s very likely that alarm was off. But like I said --
GRACE: What about the missing cell phones? What can we learn from that?
LEVITAN: Well, for one, we could know -- did he have a communication with Mr. Wallace prior to the attack? Did he call Domino`s Pizza? Did he have
communication with anyone after the fact? This is going to be -- the police are kind of creating a digital diary of all his electronic use.
GRACE: You know --
LEVITAN: And that tells you who he communicated with and where he was. He also took a phone out of the home. We could probably find, you know, where
that phone went.
GRACE: You know, Robin Ficker, the Wint family attorney, you know the back door was kicked in? The side door?
FICKER: Well, there were at least 50 firemen there, many police frantically trying to find out if there were any living people in the home.
No one can attribute that print to Mr. Wint. That is fabrication out of the whole flawed.
GRACE: You know what, Ficker? You got me over a barrel on that one. But stay tuned, friend.
Right now CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The Scottish highlands are his home, but for decades Magnus McFarlane Barrow has been changing lives around the globe.
Every weekday his program Mary`s Meals provides free nutritious food to school children in 12 of the worst countries.
MAGNUS MCFARLAND BARROW, CNN HERO: Did you enjoy the porridge?
It brings many children into school. Their health improves. And then we see amazing results with academic performance.
COOPER: His work earned him global recognition as a Top Ten CNN Hero.
BARROW: Being ordered as a CNN Hero comes with raising awareness. It was just incredible. At that time we were feeding 400,000 something children.
So since then we`ve more than doubled.
COOPER: Among those now benefiting from Magnus` work are AIDS orphans being educated by Marie De Silva in Malawi. She was also honored as a Top
Ten CNN Hero.
BARROW: We have this really strong collaboration.
MARIE DE SILVA, CNN HERO: Magnus changed our lives. Now children are focused. They don`t miss school and they are graduating.
COOPER: But in May Magnus reached an incredible milestone. Mary`s Meals now feeds one million children around the world every school day. That`s
five million meals every week.
[20:55:08] BARROW: The million is just a mind-boggling number but it really is a mission accomplished. This is the beginning. There`s still
another 57 million children who are out in school who are hungry so we go on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We remember American hero, Marine Sergeant Christian Williams, 27, Winter Haven, Florida, Purple Heart, a Junior Nationals weightlifter.
Parents Maria and Jack who served the Navy, three siblings, fiancee, Andrea.
Christian Williams, American hero.
And happy birthday to our friend, Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner. Isn`t she beautiful?
Drew up next, everybody. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp. And until then, good night, friend.
END
