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Nancy Grace
Duggars Accused of Cover-Up. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired June 08, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. The wildly popular TLC reality show, seen here, "19 Kids and Counting," featuring the
ultra-religious Duggar family, in a tailspin after one of the Duggars, Josh Duggar, now 27 years old, with three children of his own, accused of
molesting young girls. The Duggar family sex victims break their silence amid claims of a coverup.
Bombshell tonight. Disturbing new details emerging now as rumors swirl the Duggars could be arrested?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the story of my family. We`re the Duggars.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sisters of reality TV star Josh Duggar are trying to set the record straight about their brother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We chose (INAUDIBLE) John David (ph). We thought why not have a double date?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sisters say while it was wrong of Josh to molest them, they say he shouldn`t be characterized as a rapist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from TLC`s "19 Kids and Counting."
And live, Pendleton, South Carolina, a 12-month-old little girl, Leona Wright (ph), disappears. Tonight, we join family and law enforcement for
the search for baby Leona.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen little Leona Wright?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for Leona later moved on, back at the apartments, where deputies first were told that a 3-year-old in Leona`s
apartment opened a door for her and she got out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still following leads, still interviewing some folks, and trying to come up with a conclusion to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Milpitas, a 3-year-old little boy snatched, kidnapped from the children`s section of the public library.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. A 3-year-old boy is kidnapped from the public library in Milpitas, California. Police go on a desperate
search for the boy in plaid shorts and red shoes. What happens next is nothing short of a miracle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live. The wildly popular TLC reality show, seen here, "19 Kids and Counting," featuring the ultra-religious Duggar
family, in a tailspin after one of the Duggars, Josh Duggar, now 27 years old, with three children of his own, accused of molesting young girls. The
Duggar family sex victims break their silence amid claims of a coverup.
Disturbing new details emerging right now as rumors swirling the Duggars could be arrested? OK, that`s something I don`t quite get.
To Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywoodlife.com. It`s on the headlines of various tabloids, Duggars being arrested? So -- and that
would be for what? The statute of limitations has passed on Josh Duggar. He`s now 27, with children of his own. For what, the parents allowing it
to happen? Once they knew about it, there was a period of time of years,that passed when it still went on? Is that what everyone`s talking
about, a possible arrest?
Everybody, this is video from "19 Kids and Counting," TLC.
Chloe?
CHLOE MELAS, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: Yes, Nancy, that is what everybody is talking about right now, is that the Duggars, the parents of all of these
children, that they knew about what their son Josh had done and they covered it up. It`s absolutely shocking, and people want there to be more
justice to be served.
GRACE: OK. In the last hours, we have obtained the girls` interview. And who I`m talking about is Jessa and Jill. Now, typically, I would not
state a sex attack victim`s name, OK, because that`s their decision if they want to be public or not. But they have spoken out. I want you to hear
it. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile or a rapist,
some people are saying. I`m, like, that is so overboard and a lie, really. I mean, people will get mad at me for saying that, but I`m, like, I can say
this, you know? I was one of the victims so I can speak out and I can say this and set the record straight here.
Like, in Josh`s case, he was a boy, young boy in puberty, and a little too curious about girls. And that got him into some trouble. And he made
some bad choices. But really, the extent of it was mild, inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims, most of it while girls were...
[20:05:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn`t even know about it until he went and confessed it to my parents.
(CROSSTALK)
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Neither one of you knew?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. None of the victims were aware of what happened until Joshua confessed and then...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn`t like we were keeping a secret, afraid or something. It was, we didn`t know until Josh explained to my parents
what his thought process was, what everything was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Those are the Duggar sisters, two of them of the 19, anyway, Jessa and Jill, during their exclusive interview on Fox`s "The Kelly File"
with Megyn Kelly.
Let`s take a look at what they just said. Let`s bring in Chloe Melas and Alexis Tereszcuk. Also with me, Marc Klaas, president, founder of
Klaas Kids Foundation.
Chloe and Alexis, first to you. To you, Chloe Melas. No, based on everything that I`ve heard, he cannot be correctly characterized as a
rapist because these facts do not make out a rape. Chloe, I want to get your thoughts before I go to Alexis Tereszcuk. But the thing about them
being fully clothed -- that`s not entirely true.
You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
Alexis, let me go to you on this one because there`s the incident where the 5-year-old girl is sitting in his lap. I believe at this point,
he`s 15 years old. And he reaches up under her clothes to her vagina and vaginal area. Also, we have a similar thing happening with the same 5-
year-old little girl in the laundry room.
So they`re not -- this is not touching on the outside of their clothes, that we know of, Alexis.
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM (via telephone): No, you`re exactly right. In fact, the little girl was also awake. She wasn`t
sleeping. She was sitting on his lap, reading a book. He was reading a book to her, and that`s when he grabbed her. So -- groped her.
And this is not a case of just sneaking into her bedroom at night. This was out in the middle of the living room in the family home. And then
the father, Jim Bob Duggar, does say that later, he went up and accosted this girl again in the laundry room. This is a defenseless little child in
her own home.
GRACE: Well, there`s another issue. Also, the girls say when they`re talking to Megyn Kelly -- the Duggar girls say, We were not even aware of
what happened. Well, the little 5-year-old girl was aware, and I don`t know who else was aware.
And not only that, Chloe Melas with Hollywoodlife.com, nobody is talking about the baby-sitter. She is not a member of the family. What
happened to her? Who is she? How old was she? What are the conditions under which she was molested? Nobody`s talking about the fact that he
allegedly molested someone outside the family.
MELAS: Nancy, there is so much more to this story, and that`s what all the magazines are saying these days, is that there is a coverup going
on where they feel like they were forced to come out. Jessa and Jill Duggar, when they went on Fox News, they are acting as though they are
victims of the press for finding out this information through the Freedom of Information Act, that they feel like they have forgiven their brother
and that they have completely moved on, and they don`t understand why the rest of the world hasn`t moved on from this.
But you know what? We can`t, Nancy, because there are so many more questions. It`s so disturbing how they downplayed all of this on Fox News.
And you know, we all want to know about that baby-sitter and we all want to know what else does the family know that we don`t?
GRACE: Well, the other thing is this. I don`t necessarily want to know the name of the baby-sitter because that`s her business. If she wants
to come out and out herself as being a sex molest victim, that`s her business. But I feel like we`re getting the wool pulled over our eyes.
And I get it. I get you don`t want to send your son to jail.
Here is "19 Kids and Counting," and that`s Josh right there on his wedding day. I think that`s who that is. Yes, there he is.
I know you don`t want to send your kid, your son, to jail. But here`s the rub. The rub is the victims are your daughters. So what do you do
about that? What do we know about, Chloe Melas, whether the girls ever had counseling?
MELAS: OK, so Jessa and Jill Duggar said that they did have counseling and that Josh actually got counseling, too. And they added that
he paid for it himself, as if that`s supposed to make it a little bit better.
They also said that their parents took safety precautions after they found out about what Josh was doing by locking their doors at night and not
allowing the daughters to play hide-and-seek with Josh. But that is really all we know that they did to try to prevent this from continuing to happen.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting."
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Linda Lee, Atlanta, Danny Cevallos, New York. Also with me, I want to bring in Marc Klaas from Klaas Kids
Foundation.
First of all to you, Linda Lee. I get that the parents don`t want to send their son to jail. That is a big consideration.
[20:10:05]But my concern is after the parents found out about the molestations, they really didn`t do anything. He stayed in the home, and
the molestations continued for a period of time.
Also, regarding the counseling, what counseling? Who`s counseling who, what, where, why, when?
LINDA LEE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think that in terms of the parents, they`re not mandatory reporters. These are not teachers,
social workers. This is not a doctor or a mandatory reporter. They have no duty to report or try to get their son in trouble.
GRACE: Put her up, please. What about the fact that the victims, Danny Cevallos, are their children? What about that? If you know your
daughter is getting molested and you do nothing, you don`t report the molester -- see, that`s the other edge of this coin.
DANNY CEVALLOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As a public policy reason, Nancy, that`s probably why parents are about the only human beings who are not
mandatory reporters. And that list includes foster parents, police officers, everybody with an otherwise contractual legal duty. But parents,
on the other hand, it would probably place too much of a burden on the system if parents had to make that decision, especially in critical cases
like this.
GRACE: That`s absolutely incorrect.
Everybody, two of the girls, Jessa and Jill, have broken their silence, and I want you to hear what they are saying. This is from Fox on
"The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly. Listen to what they`re saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think for us, our situation is so different than most girls` in that he was -- he`s very subtle (INAUDIBLE) like, he
knew in his mind, My actions are wrong and I have bad intentions. But he was very sly, like, the girls didn`t catch on, you know? It was, like, OK,
if he catched the girl sleeping, you know, like, a quick feel or whatever and -- or like, you know, if you`re just not really aware, you know -- in
the situations that happened, when the girls were awake, it was, like, they weren`t aware of what was happening. It was very subtle.
And so I think that for us, it`s, like, OK, we realize this is serious, but at the same time, it wasn`t like a horror story or like this
terrible thing or, like, Oh, my goodness...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLY: That`s one of the headline covers, house of horrors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:27]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s turn to the big celebrity news of the week, and that is, of course, the Duggar family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His sisters (INAUDIBLE) reality TV (INAUDIBLE) Josh Duggar say he is not a pedophile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kids are very forgiving. So I`m not really afraid of making...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, it`s...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of unusual things about this case, the publicity, the fame of the family, the reality show.
JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: (INAUDIBLE) being the husband, being a father that I need to be, setting that example for them is going to make a
difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing video of TLC`s "19 Kids and Counting," now in a tailspin as yet more disturbing facts emerge regarding one of the Duggars,
now 27-year-old Josh Duggar, with children of his own, molesting his sisters. And now we learn a baby-sitter from the ages of 13 to
approximately 16 years old in the home.
Another issue -- and I want to go to Dawn Horwitz-Person on this, from Chico, California, who runs a sex offender treatment program. Dawn is a
psychotherapist.
Dawn, you believe that sex offenders can be rehabilitated. I would like to say that in the 10 years that I put sex offenders behind bars, I`m
convinced they cannot be rehabilitated. I`m not referring to Josh, though, because I see a difference.
This is "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC that you`re seeing.
I have seen a difference. And remember, I`m a JD. You`re the MD. You`re the therapist. But I have seen a difference when the molestation
occurs when the perp is a young boy. That doesn`t mean that`s what they are forever.
When an adult does it -- once you`re about 16, 17, 18, if you`re still molesting children then, you`re a child molester. I`m just telling you,
Dawn. You may be able to train a molester not to do it again, but I think inside of them, that that is their nature. That`s their nature.
I want to hear why you think child molesters can be rehabilitated.
DAWN HORWITZ-PERSON, RUNS SEX OFFENDER TREATMENT PROGRAM: I think they can change if they want to change, and that`s really key. Do they
really choose to want to? Are they sorry because they got caught and are they trying to say everything that they think they`re supposed to say, or
do they truly really want to change?
I believe that there is a lot of research-based, evidence-based treatment that does work if they choose to incorporate it in their lives...
GRACE: Right.
HORWITZ-PERSON: ... if they choose to understand and really work a tough treatment program. I run a very...
GRACE: Well, I hear you. But to me, that sounds Pavlovian in the sense that, as with Pavlov`s dogs, you can train them not to do a certain
thing, but that doesn`t mean that they want to change.
I want you to hear what the two girls, Jessa and Jill, have stated.
You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
Can these people ever make a TV comeback? Now, that`s really low on my list. I`m more concerned that the victims who say they have had
counseling make a comeback. Take a listen to what they had to say on "Kelly Files." (sic)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: When you found out this was going to be on the cover of "In Touch Weekly," what was your reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll tell you, we were pretty furious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I called (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were not happy.
[20:20:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and I was in tears. I couldn`t believe what was going on! (INAUDIBLE) whenever I heard the police report
had been released, then I said, what -- like, What right do they have to do this? (INAUDIBLE) They can`t do this to us!
KELLY: And yet they did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, that is not just about money. I truly believe that Jessa and Jill do not want their brother prosecuted, did not want him prosecuted,
did not want this to be made public, and it`s not just about the show.
Those are the Duggar sisters, Jessa and Jill, in an interview on Fox`s "Kelly Files" with Megyn Kelly. I have no doubt in my mind -- let me go to
you, Chloe Melas with Hollywoodlife.com. I don`t care if they were prepped. I don`t care if they went to a PR crisis person before this
interview with Megyn Kelly. I think that was genuine.
I really believe that they do not want their brother outed, they did not want him prosecuted, they did not want their names to be public, not
just because they don`t want to lose the show. And that is not uncommon, Chloe.
This is "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
A lot of sex molest victims do not want to be public. I`ve had many of them not want their full name when they were on the stand. They didn`t
want to relive it. They didn`t want to talk about it. They didn`t want their husband to know about it. In certain cultures, the woman is blamed.
I mean, there are a myriad of reasons why you don`t want it out there.
And you know what else, Chloe? Somebody did tip off the press. You know, you`ve got to know what document to request in a FOIA request. I
have handled a ton of them. You`ve got to ask for a specific document.
Now, what concerns me now is not so much were they outed, so to speak, by the press, but have they dealt with the molestation?
Here`s "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
Do you think their reaction is genuine? Because I do, Chloe.
MELAS: I definitely believe that they are genuinely sad and sorry for their brother. I don`t believe that they ever thought that this was ever
going to be making headlines and become public. I mean, this was the Duggars` dark little secret -- well, big secret that the family was
keeping.
But I also have to say, Nancy, that I actually personally believe that they know that this show has brought them a lot of money for their family
and a lot of fame, and I do think that they are trying to get the American people to want to watch them again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:00]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of Josh Duggar`s sisters are breaking their silence. They`re speaking out in defense of their brother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sisters say the media attention to the case has reopened old wounds. They say they`ve forgiven their brother and that
he`s changed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video from "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC.
We have obtained sound of the two -- two of the victims that we know of speaking out. It`s Jessa and Jill Duggar. Now, remember, he had to
know what he was doing wrong, what he was doing was wrong by molesting them, because he did it when they were asleep for the most part.
There`s another victim, a 5-year-old little girl, who really couldn`t speak out about what happened to her. Listen to what the sisters say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: We see the tears. What was it? I mean, what was it about the disclosure that was so painful?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I see it as a revictimization that`s a thousand times worse!
KELLY: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because this is something that was already dealt with. We`ve already forgiven Josh. We`ve already moved on.
KELLY: Is it humiliating, or what is the emotion that you`re feeling?
JILL DUGGAR, SISTER: Well, it`s not the truth, first of all. Everything was distorted. And so we feel like our story was not being
told, and we feel like it shouldn`t have been told.
The victims are the only ones who can speak for themselves, and so now that it`s already been warped and told however they want to portray it,
then we felt like that`s why Jess and I wanted to come out and just say, like, that`s not what happened. We`ve dealt with it so we`ve taken care of
it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the real issue is people are making this sound like it happened yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that it`s ongoing.
KELLY: And it`s very, very severe.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... happened 12 years ago, you know, when he was a child himself. And so I think seeing the change in his life -- like, we
witnessed it. We know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Those are the Duggar sisters, Jessa and Jill, in an exclusive interview on Fox`s "The Kelly File" with Megyn Kelly, where they open up.
And I truly believe what they were saying. They don`t want to rehash this. They don`t want to relive it, and they do feel victimized.
Here`s the other side of that coin. The son -- we have no idea what kind of rehab or treatment he went to, what kind of rehab or treatment the
girls went through. Did they?
Also, it went on. It continued in the home after the parents first found out about it. Why?
You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC right now.
But we know the parents say they put in precautions. OK, let`s take a look at the home. Explain to me, Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline.com, what
precautions the Duggars put in place to stop this molestation.
TERESZCUK: They actually -- they moved from the house where Josh molested his sisters. They built a brand-new, a huge, huge I think it`s
9,000-square-foot house. But they built -- the son -- all the boys were on one side of the house in a second story. There`s a long catwalk, open
balcony really that you have to walk across to the parents` master bedroom, and then on the other side of the master bedroom are the girls` rooms. So
none of the boys could even get to the girls` room without going through the parents` bedroom, which just shows how concerned that they still were,
even though Josh had been to treatment, they were still worried that something would happen and they locked their daughters behind their own
bedroom.
GRACE: When you say treatment, Alexis, what was it exactly? Because it sounds like he just went with a family friend who was also a Christian
and did basically construction work.
TERESCZUK: That`s exactly what it is.
GRACE: That`s not treatment.
TERESCZUK: No. And Michelle Duggar admits that. In the police report she admits -- Jim-Bob Duggar says he got treatment. Michelle said
he didn`t get any counseling, all he did was some construction for a family friend, who is also part of their church, but certainly not any sort of
legitimate treatment.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, weigh in, Marc.
KLAAS: The thing that really disturbs me about this, Nancy, is this is a family with a very narrow world view. They like to point fingers at
people who live alternative yet legal lifestyles, and in fact, they will bring the wrath of God down on these people, yet when it comes to the
illegal acts of one of their own children, they are very easy to forgive. I think that there`s something really terribly wrong about that kind of
cheap forgiveness.
GRACE: You know, Chloe Melas, senior reporter, I am hearing what Marc Klaas is saying, you are seeing "19 Kids And Counting" from TLC. In the
last hour there`s more developments, including the fact a babysitter was molested as well. That`s not a sleeping sister. That`s somebody else.
What happened to that? What`s so disturbing is the alleged coverup. Chloe, question. Many people want to know can they make a TV comeback.
That`s low on my list of priorities, but Chloe, I think the only way they can do it is if they put all the cards on the table. What happened, why it
happened, why it continued to happen after they knew about it. I mean, it looks like by the timeline, they found out when he had just turned 14 and
he was still at it when he was past 15 years old.
MELAS: Which --
GRACE: So why add the coverup? Why they tried to cover it up?
MELAS: Well, this is exactly why I truly believe Jessa and Jill are out there on the front lines trying to make the Americans believe that the
family has moved past this, that Josh is a changed person with his own family, and we`re hearing at hollywoodlife.com that TLC is doing everything
they can to figure out how to keep some version of this show on the air because it is their No. 1 money maker, Nancy, for them. I know it sounds
sick, but at the end of the day, it`s a business. And they are looking to possibly do a spinoff show based around Jessa and Jill or some of the other
daughters.
GRACE: If their marathon "19 Kids and Counting," the weekend that this first broke is an indicator, I would say TLC wants to put it back on.
You`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" right now from TLC. Greg Cason, psychologist, here`s the thing. There are so many emotions wrapped up in
this that parents don`t want to send the son to jail, they are also the parents of the girl victims. The girls feel revictimized. There are
allegations of a coverup. The girls say they are past it, but Greg Cason, can you really get past a molestation as a child?
CASON: I think if you are aware of the molestation as it`s happening, it`s sometimes very difficult to get past it, and a lot of people can get
past molestation. That`s the good news, Nancy. It`s good news. But in this case, it seems like the girls are having the wool pulled over their
own eyes. They are talking about their brother being sly. I fear this is not the last that we`ve heard from Josh Duggar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:40]
GRACE: Live, Pendleton, South Carolina, a 12 month old little girl, Leona Wright, disappears. Tonight, we join family and law enforcement in
the search for baby Leona.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is baby Leona?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A search of the Pendleton transfer station came up short with no sign of the baby girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re still following leads, still interviewing some folks and trying to come up with a conclusion to this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff Skipper says they received information that there were several people out and about at the apartments the night
Leona went missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Where is the baby? Joining me, special guest Sheriff John Skipper joining us, the Anderson County sheriff. Also with me, Joey
Hudson, host WGTK. First to you, Joey, what happened?
JOEY HUDSON, WGTK: Well, Nancy, all we know is that the search resumed for a third day today for young Leona Wright. It all started
Saturday morning when 1-year-old Leona Wright`s mother and boyfriend, according to the incident report, woke up and realized the child was not in
their home, and they found the front door open.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait. Joey, Joey, so they wake up and the baby`s gone and the front door is open, but Leona is only 1 year old. She`s two
feet tall, 29 pounds, last seen wearing a white sleeved shirt. So that says to me if she sleeps in a crib, this baby just 29 pounds has to get out
of her crib at 1 year old. My children weren`t walking at 1, Joey, okay? So I`m having a hard time getting this in my head. Get out of her crib,
down from her crib, leave her bedroom. I assume she`s got a room. And walks through the rest of the home to the front door, turns the front door,
undoes all the locks, and walks out and leaves the door open. Now, I`m not saying at 2 years old or 3 years old she can`t do that, but at 1 year old,
do they immediately call police, Joey?
HUDSON: Well, Nancy, that is the big question. They are speculating that young Leona`s older sister, only 3 years old herself, may have opened
the front door and let the toddler out, but you`re right, the big question is how did a 1-year-old crawl so far away that she can`t be found.
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Interesting. Interesting. I want to go to sheriff John Skipper, also with me, Marc Klaas. Sheriff, thank you for being with us.
SHERIFF JOHN SKIPPER, ANDERSON COUNTY: Sure. Thank you for having me.
GRACE: I`m trying to understand first of all, starting at a, the first square, when the baby goes missing, where does the mom and the
boyfriend say they were? Were they asleep and they didn`t hear anything?
SKIPPER: Yes, that`s correct. They are reporting they were asleep early in the morning when they woke up at the 8:00, 9:00 hour, the front
door was open, the 3-year-old was up and the 1-year-old was missing.
GRACE: Sheriff, which was it? Was it 8:00 or 9:00 that you believe they say they realized the baby is gone? Eight or nine?
SKIPPER: Well, I think it`s going on closer to nine. I don`t have the exact time here in front of me.
GRACE: Because I`m telling you, at 9:00 at my house, we have all been up for about five hours.
SKIPPER: I understand that.
GRACE: So 9:00 with a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old, are you kidding me? You know, it`s like a three-ring circus by 9:00 in the morning so I`ve
got a problem right there with that. That at 9:00, they just get up and notice the baby`s gone. Was the baby walking, Sheriff Skipper?
SKIPPER: It was my understanding if it was doing any kind of walking it was not very good. So it was probably still in the crawling stage. You
are correct. We have concern with that issue.
GRACE: Because you know, maybe my children were just slow because they didn`t have to walk because mommy carried them everywhere. But that
doesn`t sound right to me, even if the 3-year-old opened the door and a 3- year-old can communicate, sheriff skipper. The 3-year-old can say I opened the door and the baby crawled out.
SKIPPER: And we have had some forensic interviews with that 3-year- old. She is not -- we don`t want to describe her, you know, completely but she is comprehensive, but is not probably the level of a 3-year-old right
now.
GRACE: So, she may not be -- some children start talking and walking late. I mean, mine did. So I get it. So the 3-year-old is not really
communicating well. All right. Let`s get back to what happened. 9:00 a.m., they wake up and they notice the baby`s gone but listen to this 911,
Joey Hudson. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the location of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Edgewood Cliff Square (ph) in Charleston, South Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Sheriff Skipper, that`s not the mom, is it? That`s not the mom.
SKIPPER: At that time, the mom was fairly hysterical. The boyfriend was supposed to have been outside kind of running around and they asked
that neighbor to make that call.
GRACE: All right. So the neighbor makes the call. Joey Hudson, host, WGTK, with me along with Sheriff John Skipper, the elected sheriff
there. Joey, so the neighbor makes the 911 call. Who can place the baby alive prior to that morning, Joey Hudson, do we know?
HUDSON: Well, that`s the big question. We don`t know for sure other than I would assume that the mother knows that the baby was put to bed the
prior evening. But that is -- there are a lot of questions here yet to be answered, and we don`t know other than the fact that, you know, at some
point, that morning, they claim she was not in her bed when they woke up.
GRACE: Got you. Sheriff John Skipper, who can tell me the baby was alive and seen the night before? Who put the baby to bed?
SKIPPER: Right. The boyfriend -- the mom was at a bachelorette party for her sister, who is getting married the next day, and she came home at
about the 5:00 hour.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa. Whoa. Okay. 5:00.
SKIPPER: The boyfriend --
GRACE: Nothing good happens after midnight, Sheriff. You know that, right? Nothing good. Nothing good.
SKIPPER: I understand. The facts are what they are.
GRACE: Did she look at the baby? Did she check on the baby when she came home?
SKIPPER: She did not at that moment in time. The boyfriend -- the baby was asleep at that moment and --
GRACE: How do we know that? How do I know the baby`s asleep at 5:00, Sheriff? Nobody looked at the baby. Does the baby have a window in its
room?
SKIPPER: It does. But it`s closed.
GRACE: It`s closed. And it cannot be opened from the outside?
SKIPPER: I don`t think so.
GRACE: Does the baby share the room with anyone?
SKIPPER: With the 3-year-old sister.
GRACE: Did the baby sister sleep through the night? Can she articulate if anyone came into the room?
SKIPPER: That`s why we had the forensic interview.
GRACE: Got you.
SKIPPER: I don`t want to go into that.
GRACE: Any blood found at the scene?
SKIPPER: No.
GRACE: Huh. And no indication anything was taken with the baby? All the toys and clothes are still there, correct?
SKIPPER: That`s my understanding. Yes.
GRACE: Okay. So you didn`t see any forced entry on that window in the baby`s room, correct?
SKIPPER: That`s correct.
GRACE: Okay. There`s no sign that any baby`s toys, clothing, diapers, nothing like that, had been thrown away in a dumpster?
SKIPPER: Right.
[20:45:00]
GRACE: All right. So you really believe the exit was through the front door, if in fact the child left. You don`t think it was taken out
the window.
SKIPPER: I don`t at this time. No.
GRACE: Okay. Something`s not fitting for me. Do we know -- you`re telling me the boyfriend put the baby to bed.
SKIPPER: Yes.
GRACE: Okay. Marc Klaas, founder, Klaas Kids Foundation, with me. Joey Hudson and special guest, Sheriff John Skipper. Weigh in, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Well, something stinks here because even if a little baby was able to get outside the front door, a search dog would easily be able to
track that baby to its location, which would be very near the house. A 1- year-old is not going to get very far. But yet there`s no sign of the baby. So that scenario doesn`t work.
GRACE: But you know the other thing, Marc Klaas, let me see Marc, please. Marc, I will never forget on our kitchen door, I had it tricked
out like every other door there is, and I saw with my own two eyes John David like a monkey crawl up beside it, go up some stairs and go all the
way to the top lock, he was 2, and get all the locks and get out the door to the laundry room. I saw it. I would not have believed it if I didn`t
see it myself. But this child can barely walk.
KLAAS: Sure. And this child was not going to be able to get very far on its own volition. You would be able to track this child`s scent.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:45]
GRACE: A three-year-old little boy snatched, kidnapped from the children`s section of the public library. How many times do you take your
children to the library, especially over the summer, and you have no concern that they`re on a different aisle from you? Well, listen to this.
This little boy at the public library in the children`s section with the mom when the tot is kidnapped from the library. To Henry Lee, reporter
with San Francisco Chronicle, how did the boy get taken out of the library with nobody knowing?
HENRY LEE, SAN FRAN. CHRONICLE: We don`t know exactly how this happened, but when the mother realized that it was missing, obviously an
all points bulletin. It was later determined that he, the boy, walked out of the library with a complete stranger.
GRACE: Oh, my stars. Okay, you know, Marc Klaas, how many times have they done experiments and tests with children, and you say, don`t leave
with a stranger, don`t leave with a stranger, don`t leave with a stranger. Then they put the children on a playground and watch them leave with who is
a stranger to the child, to see if it works. A kid will walk out with anybody that`s nice to them. They don`t know the difference.
KLAAS: You know, unfortunately, that`s very true, Nancy, and we`ve conducted a number of those experiments ourselves. Really, all you have to
do is be kind to a little child, and almost any child, even one with training, will leave with a stranger if they have enough incentive to do
so.
GRACE: Absolutely. So I can understand, Henry Lee, how the child walked out with somebody completely quietly, and the mom had no idea. But
let`s go to special guest Tim Watson, who heard a report about a missing child. Tim Watson, bus driver in San Jose, California, you`re awesome, No.
1. Okay? No. 2.
TIM WATSON, BUS DRIVER: Thank you.
GRACE: How did you find out the boy was missing?
WATSON: First it`s a chain of events. The library has got to get ahold of the local police department agency, (inaudible), therefore,
they`re going to get ahold of the county agency, which got ahold of the VTA dispatch. From there our VTA dispatch is going to just send us a canned
message on the bus, which we have a screen there.
GRACE: So you got a canned message that a little boy was missing. Then what happened?
WATSON: I physically got a push on it, I read it. At that point I had already left the Great (ph) mall transit center. I had a suspect and a
child on the bus that resembled my canned message.
GRACE: What did you do?
WATSON: At that point I was going down 680 northbound to Fremont Bart (ph). At my first stop getting off of the freeway, I pulled over and I did
a little investigation to see if the perpetrator as well as the child matched my description on my canned message. So I pulled over, popped the
brake, secured the coach, and I started walking back acting like I need to look for a green backpack. There was a lost green backpack maybe on my
bus. He was the furthest from me, so I had to keep looking and walking, looking and walking, and I got right up to him within about a foot, and I`m
looking over for, A, have you seen a green backpack? He says no. Then I`m looking at the child for the description on the canned message.
GRACE: Was the little boy crying?
WATSON: He was teary-eyed but he wasn`t crying loud. It was like he had an upset stomach is the best way to put it, he had an upset stomach and
teary-eyed.
GRACE: And then what happened?
WATSON: So then I noticed the description on my canned message. I looked for the plaid shorts and then the red Crocs. That`s what really
stuck out to me. I said, I`m pretty sure I have this little boy on my bus.
GRACE: And you called police?
WATSON: I`m sorry?
GRACE: And then you called police.
WATSON: No, actually, I walked back and the only thing I can do is I hit a button which is PRTT to get ahold of VTA dispatch. From there I tell
them I have a possibility that I do have the little boy on my bus and a suspect.
GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing video of police taking the suspect off the bus, clutching the little tot, the three-year-old little boy,
tightly in his arms before police wrestle the boy out of the perp`s arms. Let me just thank for an angel on earth, Tim Watson.
[20:55:00]
The little boy kidnapped out of the public library with mommy. If it were not for Tim Watson, the bus driver, the Lord only knows where that child
would be tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:20]
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero, Colorado Trooper Taylor Thyfault, 21, killed in the line of duty. An Army vet only serving
Colorado State Patrol a few weeks at the time of his death. Squad leader for his cadet class. Leaves behind mother Carol and a loving family.
Taylor Thyfault, American hero.
And a special happy birthday to superstar Sweet Dee (ph) and LSU lover, our favorite moon pie, Dee. Isn`t she beautiful? Drew up next.
I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
