Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Charges in Walmart Mom Brawl; Who is Joyce Mitchell? Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired June 15, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Indiana. A shocking brawl in the aisle of a Beech Grove Walmart, where Mommy screams, Johnnie,
punch her in the face, the stunning moment Mommy starts a brawl in Walmart and reportedly makes her 6-year-old little boy help her out by kicking the
woman who leaps out of her motorized scooter in the face. And it`s all caught on YouTube video. We have the video.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, formal charges handed down as one of the Walmart brawling moms breaks her silence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, don`t kick! He just kicked her in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from YouTube.
And tonight, day nine, two convicted murderers break out of a U.S. maximum security prison just 20 miles south of the U.S.-Canadian border.
The elaborate escape takes two years to plan and carry out. Similar to the Houdini-like escape in blockbuster film "Shawshank Redemption," seen here
from Council Rock Entertainment, the two seemingly disappear into thin air.
But what about her, the married prison employee who worked in the tailor shop? What could possibly convince a mother to help two cold-
blooded killers dig their way out of a max security facility? Tonight, we dig deep to find out why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Day ten of a massive New York manhunt dawns with convicted murderers Richard Matt and David Sweat still on the loose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joyce Mitchell, who worked in the prison, gave the men hacksaw blades, drill bits and special eyeglasses with lights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former prison employee is waking up behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are Joyce E. Mitchell?
JOYCE MITCHELL, PRISON EMPLOYEE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Indiana. In a shocking brawl in the aisle of a Beech Grove Walmart where Mommy screams, Johnnie, punch her in the
face -- it`s all caught on YouTube video. As we go to air tonight, formal charges just handed down as one of the Walmart brawling moms breaks her
silence.
Now, I want to play this clip in full -- re-rack it for me, please, Liz, where one mom, the one on top -- yes, she`s got the advantage. I feel
like I`m at roller derby. Listen to this. Go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What you going to do? Come on. What you going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s kids all around here.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Y`all knock it off (INAUDIBLE) Get the hell off of her right now.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punch her in the face!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is white trash at its finest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys going to call security (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re coming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at them.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t have a phone.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. (INAUDIBLE) I ain`t doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Keep watching as here little 6-year-old -- oh, there he goes. Whoa! Ow! Ow! Ow! That`s a slugger. You`re seeing video from YouTube
video. Let`s finish rolling it. Look at all the shampoo and everything that`s fallen down, other people looking on. Where`s security, for Pete`s
sake?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, you`re going to go to little boys` jail. Hey, don`t kick! He just kicked her in the head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did you see that kick?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Stop it right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Watch out, lady, he`s coming after you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is the mother on top telling Johnnie to punch the woman in the face. Now, Liz -- oh, there he goes again! You know, (INAUDIBLE)
that`s a Hail Mary kick right there. That`s a serious football punt. Liz, do you have the -- the child kicking? OK, let`s see that, Liz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:11]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, really? There`s kids all around here.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Buddy, don`t do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Y`all knock it off. (INAUDIBLE) Get the hell off of her right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her in the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do something. Do something about it! What are you going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where does he get it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the one that (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Keep watching. There`s a reason we`re showing it to you in full.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, hey! Stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, you`re going to go to little boy jail. Hey, don`t kick! He just kicked her in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not going to tell me what to do!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, stop it.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s not right. He`s kicking her.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he`s kicking (INAUDIBLE) on the floor. That`s what he was doing. See, he`s (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, there`s a reason we showed that to you in full. You know what? Just keep rolling the rest of it because I want the viewers to know
what`s happening.
In the last hours, we learn the mom who incites her little boy to continue kicking the woman in the face has been charged. Now,
interestingly, she has not been charged with the battery that`s going on here.
Oh, there you go! Is that Mommy? Is that Mommy, Liz? Yes, that`s Mommy. So far, all I`ve seen is her rear end. But this is the other end,
right there, the one that is -- this is the mommy that`s yelling, Johnnie, punch her in the face. That -- that`s -- she`s got quite a right arm
there.
To Chris Spargo, reporter with Dailymail.com joining us. Also, April Hurley is with us, the witness who recorded the brawl on cell phone.
First of all, I want to go to you, April Hurley. What happened? Because now Mommy is claiming she was defending a Walmart employee from a
racial slur. So April, what did you see happen?
APRIL HURLEY, WITNESS: I was walking towards the shampoo aisle, and I heard a bunch of yelling and I pulled out my phone. And before I could
even get it to record, I heard the mom, Amber, defending the Walmart employee and saying the lady that was in the handicap cart shouldn`t, you
know, take it out on the Walmart employee because they`re just doing their job.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wait! Took what out on what? Who got mad at a Walmart employee?
HURLEY: The lady in the mobile cart -- she got mad at a Walmart employee.
GRACE: Oh! Ow! Oh! Ow! That little boy is really digging in with those kicks.
So -- ow! Ow! OK, yes, you know what? You went to that statement right as he was hitting a home run on her head, Liz. So let`s back it up.
So the one that was in -- I call it a rascal (ph), one of those motorized scooters, what, said something to a Walmart employee?
HURLEY: Yes. She had something something, a racial comment to a Walmart employee and Amber...
GRACE: You know, that`s what I heard. I heard that, April Hurley. But then I noticed -- Chris Spargo, Dailymail, it`s my understanding -- you
know what? Let`s just take it from the top.
Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com, what happened?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): So the Walmart employee has now been interviewed, and she said that she had carts in the aisle and
the lady in the motorized scooter was kind of annoyed at her and they had a little bit of -- a little -- words among them. She said, Well, it was so
quiet, no one could even have heard them, and she also said that at no point did the woman in the scooter say anything racially insensitive
towards her. And that`s...
GRACE: Well, hold on. Hold on. Let me back it up because Chris Spargo, we also have the mom, whose rear end you see right there, on tape.
She called in to some radio show, we think. Listen to what she said, Chris. Everyone, this is the mom, Amber. And here she is. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
AMBER STEPHENSON, BRAWLING MOM: My son takes martial arts class. He is 6 years old. He`s been going to the gym for a couple years now with his
father. I mean, he`s been in the gym for a long time. It ain`t like he just sits back and -- and I mean, he`s -- he`s got a little crazy. I mean,
he`s a little crazy kid. Like, he`s just one that I don`t have to worry about him ever being bullied in high school.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from WZPL (ph), mom Amber Stephenson`s interview with the ``Smiley Morning Show`` just after this brawl. She goes on to say that
she was protecting a Walmart employee because the -- let me just say the mom in the rascal, the woman in the rascal, used a racial slur.
[20:10:00]Now, T.J. Ward, voice analysis expert, has listened to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHENSON: I was just standing up for an employee. I was walking by, me and my son, and we -- she was sitting there yelling at an employee
at Walmart, and she was telling her that she was a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and that she was going to get out of her chair and whup her out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
STEPHENSON: She used the N word. So in my defense for the employee, I walked by and I asked her if she was miserable with her life, and that`s
when she decided to roll her supposedly crippled -- down there and jump out of the chair. So in my defense, I was standing up for the employee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: T.J., do you believe her?
T.J. WAR, VOICE ANALYSIS EXPERT (via telephone): Well, according to the test from the involuntary changes in this short statement she gave to
the ``Smiley Morning Show,`` she is telling the truth. She`s telling the truth.
GRACE: So T.J., you`re telling me -- ow! Oh! I haven`t seen it from this angle.
You`re telling me the mom claiming this was all because the woman in the gray T-shirt said a racial slur -- you believe it.
WARD: Yes, the lady, Amber, that got on the radio show, on the ``Smiley Morning Show`` -- she is telling the truth of what she told the
``Smiley Morning Show`` about the racial slur.
GRACE: OK. Chris Spargo, Matt Zarrell -- let me go to you, Matt. I know that on the radio show, she says she attacked the lady because the
lady called and employee a racial slur. But I don`t think that`s true. Why?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, there are multiple reasons. One is that the employee herself -- we actually have the
police document where the employee said that the woman did not use the N word. She did threaten her.
But one thing that`s very important here is that the employee said that the mother was all the way down at the other end of the aisle, and
there is no way that that mother could have heard anything coming out of the woman in the scooter`s mouth at all because the employee was standing
right next to her and she could barely understand what the woman was saying.
GRACE: So April Hurley, a witness who recorded the brawl on cell phone -- April, you`re saying this is all because the woman getting the
beating, with that tattoo just above her rear end, used a racial slur. But the police didn`t know anything about that, and even the employee says that
didn`t happen. So where does that come from, April?
HURLEY: If you look at the other video from the other guy that posted a video, from the very beginning, when he`s hiding behind the lady, you can
see where the woman and the Walmart employee are having an altercation.
GRACE: Right. We know they had an argument because she`s in a rascal and there was a car left out -- carts left out in the middle of the aisle,
and the rascal could not get by. So the gray shirt argued with the employee. But the employee says there was never a racial slur used, that
the mom made that up to try to garner sympathy. So did you hear her say a racial slur, April?
HURLEY: I didn`t personally hear her say a racial slur.
GRACE: OK. OK. Ashley Willcott, certified child welfare specialist, joining us. Ashley, for two grown ladies -- well, I`m certainly using the
term loosely -- get into a fight at Walmart, that`s on them. But having your child, your 6-year-old boy -- what is that? Let`s see, 6 years old,
that`s pre-K or K or something like it, kindergarten -- join in and start kicking the other woman ruthlessly -- I mean, is that OK?
ASHLEY WILLCOTT, CERTIFIED CHILD WELFARE SPECIALIST No, not from my perspective at all, Nancy. This shouldn`t happen to a 6-year-old. They
shouldn`t be asked to get in the way of danger. She`s endangered her child by telling him to punch somebody in the fact and get into the middle of an
adult fight. Shouldn`t happen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:17]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers noted Stephenson`s son kicked Mills, grabbed a bottle of shampoo, hit her with it and poured it on her
head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, hey! Stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not going to tell me what to do!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video from YouTube. Two moms get into it at Walmart, but here`s the rub. As we go to air tonight, we learn one of
these women, the mother of that 6-year-old little boy, charged with a crime, inducing her child to join a fight.
Exactly what is the charge, Chris Spargo, Dailymail.com?
SPARGO: So she`s being charged of neglect of a dependent and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And it`s a maximum penalty for
three-and-a-half years in prison, and it`s going to be a tough charge to fight because there`s a store full of eyewitnesses and a video of the
fight, and she`s holding a woman down and urging her son to attack her.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true that this mom, Amber Stephenson, 34-year-old mom, said that the other woman from the rascal scooter pushed
her son down, knocked him down, but we don`t see that happen in the video.
ZARRELL: No, you...
GRACE: Hey! Whoa! Whoa! What`s this lady doing in a scooter anyway? Look, she is clearly physically capable of having a fight at
Walmart. So what`s she doing in that scooter?
ZARRELL: Well, I don`t know, because Stephenson, the mother, asked the same question because at one point on the video, Stephenson says, You
don`t even look like you need to be in that wheelchair. Why don`t you get your ass up and do something? And that`s when Mills, the woman in the
wheelchair, actually approached and started the altercation.
GRACE: Let`s hear that video again, Liz, and analyze whether she really says what Matt thinks he heard, where the whole thing really started
because the mom said something about the scooter.
[20:20:05]OK, here we go. Back to you. Chris Spargo, you`re claiming that the charges will net about four years behind bars. So what is the
basis, Ashley Willcott, of charge this mom with contributing to the delinquency of a minor?
WILLCOTT: Well, Nancy, the understanding I have is that if the child is endangered by putting him in way of any physical harm, then those crimes
can result in that specific state. And certainly, there`s a very valid argument that she`s put him in harm`s way. On top of that, she`s
encouraging him to get in the fight and saying, Hit her in the face, hit her in the face.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me in addition to Ashley Willcott is Jason Oshins, high-profile lawyer out of New York, and Brian
Claypool, defense attorney out of LA. Let`s see all three lawyers, Charles.
First of all, to you, Jason Oshins. Caught on video -- what`s your defense? How can she possibly not be charged?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this is overreaching. You know, when YouTube hits the local prosecutor and takes advantage of the
moment, perhaps the mayor and his comments and everyone were embarrassed about this happening. But this doesn`t rise to the level of endangerment.
Certainly, if the department of welfare, if child service was involved in past incidents with the mom, this might be the tipping point. But this in
and of itself -- it`s just an embarrassment and it`s overreaching, Nancy. It really is.
GRACE: OK. Am I correct, Jason, that you have a son and a daughter?
OSHINS: Sure, I do.
GRACE: Right? And if an adult -- let`s just take your wife out of this...
OSHINS: OK. Fine.
GRACE: ... because I cannot see this coming out of her mouth. OK, so an adult forces your son or your daughter -- let`s go with your daughter...
OSHINS: Sure.
GRACE: ... to commence kicking someone else in the face and punching them, all right, so you`d be OK with that.
OSHINS: Listen, this wasn`t going on throughout with...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Dodge! We`re not playing dodgeball, Jason!
OSHINS: Nancy, the mom was in a fight. Perhaps she was sensing that the other woman was getting the advantage...
GRACE: Really? Because she`s sitting on her.
(CROSSTALK)
OSHINS: I didn`t see any of the other adults filming this rush to take the 6-year-old out of harm`s way. They were too busy filming it.
Perhaps you should arrest all of them, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what you`re doing? Please put him up. You know what you`re doing, Jason? You`re playing deflect, deflect, deflect. Look at
everybody else, but don`t look at...
(CROSSTALK)
OSHINS: I`m not answering to her judgment as a parent.
GRACE: You know what? You`re right, nobody else joined in. But the question was -- Claypool, you`re smiling. Let`s drag you into this. So
Claypool, what`s your defense?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the defense here, Nancy, is that this woman, Amber Stephenson, was in a brawl. Rebecca Mills was on
the floor once, and she got up and she threw a brutal right hand at Amber. So my argument would be is this little boy was involved -- was engaged in
self-defense, that she called him in to help her in self-defense because she was in a major brawl. And you can`t hold her responsible for this
crime...
GRACE: Self-defense.
CLAYPOOL: ... and let...
GRACE: How about when you start it? How is that self-defense when you`re the aggressor.
Ashley -- Ashley Willcott, can you talk some sense into these two?
WILLCOTT: Well, Nancy, all I know is, you know, no child should be asked to participate in an adult fight. If it`s self-defense, if you need
help, you`ve got all these spectators. You better start hollering and screaming for one of those adults to help you. You don`t ask your child to
do it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:25]STEPHENSON: My son is raised perfectly right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnnie, punch her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face!
STEPHENSON: My son is perfectly well taken care of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, do something! Do something about it! What are you going to do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So this mother, who has now been charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor and other charges that could net her four years
behind bars, Amber Stephenson, a 34-year-old mom, calls in to a radio show and says the following.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEPHENSON: Here`s the thing. My son has been a straight-A honor roll student all year long, his kindergarten year. He is the teacher`s
pet. He`s in a Christian private school. My son is raised perfectly right. He has a special amount of shoes in his closet. I mean, my son is
perfectly well taken care of because -- I mean, the first thing you hear me get up, and I say, Where`s my son? Like, that`s the first thing I say,
like, I`m not worried about anything else. My purse was sitting in a cart with everything I own in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing sound from WZPL. That is the mother, Amber Stephenson`s, interview with the ``Smiley Morning Show`` just after this
brawl.
OK, I just want to remind you, she`s the one on top there, the lady from the scooter who leaps miraculously -- she`s cured -- out of her
scooter right there in the health and beauty aisle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you serious? You want it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`re you going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What you want to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s kids all around here.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video is from YouTube.
And you know, when you think of two women having a fight at Walmart, you think of a little hair fight. No, these two are throwing punches.
Back to you, Matt Zarrell. This woman now facing almost four years behind bars. Here`s the kicker. Matt, how many times have police been
called to this particular Walmart?
ZARRELL: Well, in the last 18 months, they have been called over a thousand times to this Walmart specifically.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:00]
GRACE: Day nine. Two convicted murderers break out of a U.S. maximum security prison, just 20 miles south of the U.S.-Canadian border. The
elaborate escape takes two years to plan and carry out, similar to the Houdini-like escape in the blockbuster film "Shawshank Redemption," seen
here from Castle Rock Entertainment. The two seemingly disappear into thin air, but what about her? The married prison employee who works in the
tailor shop in the jail, what could possibly convince a mother to help two cold-blooded killers dig their way out of a maximum security facility?
Tonight, we dig deep to find out why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joyce Mitchell, accused of helping the two escape --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for these inmates continues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is one large piece of the puzzle in our quest to find these two escaped murderers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The inmates may have been sneaking out of their cells in the middle of the night to explore the prison`s inner walls.
Mitchell told police she was to pick them up around midnight and drive to a location seven hours away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a message for David Sweat and Richard Matt. We`re coming for you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: While it seems as if the two killers have vanished into thin air, once in a while we get a blip that they have been picked up by a scent
dog, that they may have been spotted. Police still looking for these two, but the question tonight is, what about this woman? A married mom who
helps these two escape. She worked as a tailor in the prison. First of all, guys, let`s take a look at how they got out. How they did it. Let`s
see those photos, everyone. First of all, the escapees, David Sweat and Richard Matt, occupy neighboring cells. Overnight Friday, they crawl
through holes that they cut in the steel walls in their cells. Take a look at this, it looks like under their beds. Now, how prison officials did not
see that gaping hole, I don`t know.
No. 2, the men then climb onto a catwalk behind the walls of the cell. Stay on the picture. See that square cutout? About midway in the photo?
That leads into their cell. They cut that hole, that square, they get out on this catwalk. No. 3, from the catwalk, Sweat and Matt descend six
stories down by this ladder. They get off the catwalk and they go down, down, down.
Now, this is between the walls of this penitentiary, between all the cells, and the outdoors. And look at all this interior plumbing.
No. 4, the two were then able to locate a steam pipe, which they cut through with tools. Where did they get the tools? How could nobody hear
them sawing through a steampipe? No. 5, leaving behind a note with a caricature, and the words, "have a nice day." They crawl through the steam
pipe. About 400 feet to the south to end up here.
No. 6, Sweat and Matt surface out of a manhole at Brook and Barker streets a block from the prison there in the village of Dannenmora. So
these two come out through all of that, up into the little town. That town, Dannenmora, is a town of 4,000, and that includes the 3,000 inmates
at Clinton correctional facility. But what about this mother, this married mom? To Polo Sandoval, CNN correspondent. Who is this woman? And how did
she allegedly help them?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, this woman, who allegedly helped execute such a an elaborate escape here, now sitting
behind bars. We do know, Nancy, that she is currently behind housed at the Clinton county jail according to the local district attorney. She`s really
being closely monitored in a very small, 6x9 jail cell, under constant supervision. That`s coming after her preliminary hearing here. Officials
saying she is cooperating with this investigation. Nancy, really what it all boils down to in this case, is she remained in her tiny jail cell while
the two people that she allegedly helped escape are still (inaudible) at this hour. Nancy.
GRACE: To Neil Tallon, former parole officer at the Clinton correctional facility. Neil, everybody, welcome. Everybody there wears
prison blues, prison uniforms that look like the McBurglar. So question to you, what do you mean she worked at a tailor shop?
NEIL TALLON, FORMER PAROLE OFFICER: You`re talking about Joyce?
GRACE: Yes.
TALLON: Or the inmates?
GRACE: Joyce.
TALLON: Joyce was the supervisor of the tailor shop. She sits in the front of the room. There`s four tailor shops there. She has approximately
35 inmates in that tailor shop, and they all have sowing machines, and they work on sowing.
GRACE: Oh, she teaches them to sow.
TALLON: They get contracts through the state somehow or other, and usually --
GRACE: Got it.
TALLON: -- it`s a state agency that`s requested these garments, and they`ll make them there at the tailor shops. It`s probably one of the
better jobs, more productive jobs in the prison. That`s why they got four of these shops, five I believe it was.
GRACE: Neil Tallon, that makes perfect sense.
TALLON: As a supervisor, she would be the supervisor of everything related to the tailoring business, and then she would have a correctional
officer in there with her, and he would be the security guy in there.
GRACE: Neil Tallon, all this talk about an inappropriate relationship she had with one or both of these guys, I mean, you just said it, you
answered it before I could ask it. She had a guard in there with her the whole time that she was teaching them or supervising them. How could she
ever have a sex relationship with one?
[20:40:00]
TALLON: It would be difficult to have a sex relationship, but they could -- I knew the person -- one of the people who worked in there prior
to her, retired now, and she should say that some of these inmates would masturbate, you know, in front of them if they could, you know, and do it
in a kind of a sneaky view. So a lot of that type of behavior could be going on.
GRACE: Or maybe, Neil Tallon--
TALLON: About the only sex they could have in that section. There`s no real place where she could sneak off to and not be, you know, missed in
any way.
GRACE: Neil Tallon, it may have been more of her just befriending them. Apparently, this has been in the works for two years. They`ve been
playing her probably -- acting like she`s their friend for two years. How did nobody hear them sawing through with a hacksaw? How could nobody hear
that?
TALLON: Well, a number of different things on this question. No. 1, those relationships happen a lot in correctional facilities. Usually the
person falls in love with the inmate, whether it`s a woman on man or a man on man, and they get fired. And if there`s some type of inappropriate
behavior, they get disciplined, the employee would, they get warned. And if it continues, they`re out of there. And usually, none of those past
problems had anything to do with escapes. They`re usually for favors. Can you do this on the outside, can you call up this, can you get me money, can
you do this? Would be the typical favors. Nobody in that facility has gotten out in 150 years with an escape. So this is completely new to them
out there.
GRACE: Joining me also is Keshia Clukey, reporter with the Albany Times Union. Keshia, thanks so much for being with us. Question. There
are reports, and CNN has not confirmed it, that she was even going to drive the getaway car, provide them with a car when they came up through that
manhole. When they came up, she wasn`t there. There have been reports circulating that the reason she pulled out of helping these two by being
their getaway is that she learned of a murderous plan, that they planned to kill her husband, and she did not sign up for that.
KESHIA CLUKEY, ALBANY TIMES UNION: Yes, Nancy, that`s what sources have been telling the Albany Times Union, that she -- whether she knew
about it or not, she got cold feet and had pulled out. But in fact, there was some sort of plan to murder her husband.
Now, I`m not sure if she was aware of it or not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:30]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Day ten of a massive New York manhunt dawns, with convicted murderers Richard Matt and David Sweat still on the loose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joyce Mitchell, who worked in the prison, gave the men hacksaw blades, drill bits, and special eye glasses with lights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A former prison employee is waking up behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are Joyce E. Mitchell?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: What possessed this married mom to help two convicted killers? Now, one of these convicted killers killed an officer, a deputy sheriff, in
the line of duty. It was Sweat. His victim was the sheriff of the Broom County Sheriff`s Department. I think we`ve got a picture. Here we go,
Kevin Tarsia was gunned down. What happened to the other murder victim, Matt`s victim, Clark Goldband?
GOLDBAND: Matt allegedly killed him, Nancy. He dismembered him inside a car.
GRACE: Well, he`s convicted, it`s not alleged anymore. Killed him and dismembered him. To Tiffany Sanders, psychologist out of Chicago,
Tiffany, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Sanders, what would possess a married mother with so much to lose to get involved with these two?
TIFFANY SANDERS: She developed this mindset that she`s going to run off into the sunset in this relationship with a murderer, a convicted
murderer. So she has probably low self-esteem, low self-worth, and she believed this man loved her and he didn`t. He likely would have killed her
if she went away with him.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Dr. Sanders, is that -- and the lawyers can probably join in on this, Jason and Brian. Tiffany, people
behind bars can be extremely charismatic and charming.
SANDERS: This woman probably started conversing with the inmates, telling them her business, and they knew how to prey on her, on her
weaknesses, and she believed what they were saying, believed that they could love her and make her special, but in actuality they were using her.
GRACE: Jason Oshins, Brian Claypool, all three of us have dealt with plenty of convicted killers and plenty of convicts. Jason, sometimes they
can be extremely charismatic, which is often how they end up getting a not guilty. How they convince people to go along with their plan, how they get
people to trust them. It`s not that far fetched, Jason.
OSHINS: If anything, besides the charisma one might possess, they are opportunistic.
[20:50:00]
That`s what makes criminals successful, the opportunity and taking advantage of it.
GRACE: Joining me right you is a special guest, Gerard McCann, former senior inspector of the U.S. Marshal Service. Mr. McCann, thank you so
much for being with us. You worked on the Texas seven case, you led the Colorado side of the investigation. Walk us through what U.S. marshals on
this case are doing right now to try and catch these two?
GERARD MCCANN, FORMER SENIOR INSPECTOR, U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: What you`re going to see here is a multi-tiered approach. What you`re seeing on
the news, the officers on the ground beating the bushes, searching the houses, searching the cars, that`s just one aspect of what`s going on.
There`s going to be a command post where you`re going to have people taking tips, investigators evaluating the tips, sending out leads. You`re going
to have the media getting the stories out, the pictures out. You are going generate more tips. You are going to have a whole another set of
investigators who are just ripping into these guys` lives, going over them with a fine-tooth comb, talking to family, friends, crime victims, law
enforcement, corrections, to learn everything they can about these guys, to the point of learning more about them than they know about themselves.
GRACE: Wow. With me is Gerard McCann, former senior inspector, U.S. Marshal Service. Back to Neil Tallon, former parole officer at this
facility, Clinton correctional. Neil, thank you and Gerard for being with us.
Neil, you mentioned nobody has broken out in 150 years. Joyce Mitchell, the prison tailor, she would have had this interaction with the
inmates. This thing has been going on for about two years. She`s -- they`ve been planning this for two years, Neil. She`s saying she didn`t
know where they were going, but we know it was seven hours away from Clinton CI.
TALLON: Nancy, I wouldn`t believe anything Joyce says at all.
GRACE: Really?
TALLON: If this situation gets bad, somebody gets hurt, she`s going to be up for bigger charges than what she`s up for now. So it would
probably be in her best interest to say only what she has to say, what they`ve caught her at already. So -- and also about this relationship,
there`s plenty of inmates who fall in love with the staff people who are not trying to escape or hurt anybody. They`re lonely. They`ve fallen in
love.
So the bottom line is, no staff should have any relationship with an inmate like that. It doesn`t make any difference if there`s an escape in
mind or just a simple love deal going on. It`s just the way it is. You don`t take the job on if you`re going to go that direction.
GRACE: You know what, on those same lines, Neil Tallon, when I was prosecuting for a decade in inner city Atlanta, I would have absolutely no
contact other than an initial plea negotiation meeting with the defendant, even in the room with me. You know why? Just what you said. I didn`t
want to know them. I didn`t want to feel like I knew them. You know why? It makes your perspective skewed. Friendship, a friendship could develop,
a familiarity. And you`ve got to do the right thing. You cannot be swayed by a type of friendship, even if it`s a fake friendship.
Keshia Clukey is joining us from Albany Times Union. Again, thank you for being with us. What are you guys thinking? You`re right there on the
scene. What happened? What was her relationship with these guys?
CLUKEY: Here on the ground, it sounds like she obviously had some sort of either relationship with them, whether it was just friends or more
than that. We haven`t yet had confirm. But it does sound like, from what we were thinking, the plan to kill the husband doesn`t quite make sense,
because they would have to drive to another area to kill him. So we`re still kind of a little leery on that game plan, and whether or not maybe it
was even a decoy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:40]
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Kenneth Pugh, 39, Houston. Second tour, National Defense Service Medal, Army
Service Ribbon, loved restoring his Chevy El Camino, fishing. Parents Arsel (ph) and Kenneth. Brothers Ronald and Christopher. Sister Jessica.
Widow Sharon. Three children. Kenneth Pugh, American hero.
And another hero tonight, Washington state police officer, David Hence. We talk about high speed chases, here he is escorting an 80-year-
old grandma lost on her motorized scooter. Four miles from home, lost on a state road. 70 minutes later, at speeds of just six miles an hour, he
escorts grandma home. And happy birthday, Donald. Loves boating on the Hudson. Happy birthday.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
