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Nancy Grace
TV Bride Files Restraining Order. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired June 16, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. Does "death do us part" apply when it comes to a shotgun wedding on reality TV?
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, two stars of A&E`s "Married at First Sight" locked in a bitter breakup. TROs, temporary restraining orders,
usually filed when somebody is in fear of serious bodily harm. And in the last hours, the popular groom on "Married at First Sight" posts a
restraining order against him filed by his bride.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jessica Castro and Ryan De Nino met and got married in front of the cameras. But it doesn`t seem like they found
happily ever after.
JESSICA CASTRO, "MARRIED AT FIRST SIGHT": We spoke about we were going to do something together!
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN DE NINO, "MARRIED AT FIRST SIGHT": Listen, we ain`t going to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks.
And live, a high price for aggressive Montessori school busted after an anonymous source videos pre-school tots being attacked by teachers on
the playground. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cell phone videos taken from a home nearby captures the abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An apparently frustrated worker shoved a 2-year- old down after having trouble putting on the child`s hat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An employee grabbing a crying child by her feet while yelling at her and later dragging the girl across the play area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, day 10, two convicted murderers break out of a U.S. maximum security prison 20 miles south of the U.S.- Canadian border,
the elaborate escape taking two years to plan and carry out, similar to the Houdini-like escape in blockbuster film "Shawshank Redemption," seen here,
Castle Rock Entertainment.
The two seemingly disappear into thin air. But what about her, the married prison employee who works in the tailor shop? What could possibly
convince a mother, a married mother, to help two cold-blooded killers dig their way out of a max security facility?
In the last hours, is a sex relationship between the married mom, Joyce Mitchell, and at least one of the inmates confirmed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sexual relationship between Joyce Mitchell and Richard Matt, one of the escapees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... relationship between all three of them was somewhat more complicated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`ll exploit someone. They`ll see a weakness in someone and use whatever they can to befriend them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No inmates found and no indication when or if the search will end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Does "death do us part" apply when it comes to a shotgun wedding on reality TV? In the last hours, two stars of A&E`s
"Married at First Sight" locked in a bitter breakup. TROs, temporary restraining orders, are usually filed when someone is in fear of serious
bodily harm or worse. And in the last hours, the popular groom on "Married at First Sight" posts a restraining order filed against him by his brand-
new bride.
Joining me right now is a well respected lawyer in multiple jurisdictions, attorney Marc Rapaport. And he is representing the bride in
this scenario. Mr. Rapaport, thank you so much for being with us.
Let me just tell you that your client, the bride, is getting lambasted in the press. I don`t know if you`re a reality TV aficionado, Mr.
Rapaport, but tonight is the first in a two-part reunion series of getting "Married at First Sight."
Many people are saying this whole thing has been trumped up just for PR. I`d like to hear your response, Mr. Rapaport.
MARC RAPAPORT, JESSICA CASTRO`S ATTORNEY (via telephone): Hi, Nancy. Well, that is just wrong. We filed an order of protection with Queens
County family court on Friday for a very simple reason, that my client needed an order of protection.
This has absolutely nothing to do with publicity. This has everything to do with protecting the safety and wellbeing of Jessica Castro, and it
was filed quite simply for that reason. And I am really disappointed to hear that this would be commented on or interpreted as anything other than
that.
[20:05:07]GRACE: With me is attorney Marc Rapaport, who is representing the bride in this scenario. As you all know by now, a
temporary protective or temporary restraining order has been filed against the groom.
And you`re seeing video of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks right now.
Many people have tried to explain away this TRO, claiming it`s all a PR stunt. You know what? I disagree. You`ve got to get a lawyer in good
standing and a judge to go along with it. And I guarantee you this judge is not sitting around watching a reality show at night.
Straight out right now to Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywoodlife.com. Chloe, we`ve got a copy of what`s purported to be the
front of this restraining order.
First of all, let`s start at the beginning, Chloe. Take a listen to this couple.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA CASTRO, "MARRIED AT FIRST SIGHT": I honestly just saw these beautiful teeth and this perfect smile. Like, I`m really big on teeth, and
I thought, Well, OK. Well, this is great!
RYAN DE NINO, "MARRIED AT FIRST SIGHT": Jessica (INAUDIBLE) . So I thought I was definitely attracted to her. (INAUDIBLE) I mean, I saw kids
in the chapel (INAUDIBLE) I was, like, Oh, maybe she`s got kids. Like, Oh, here we go. I mean, I love kids, but definitely wasn`t, you know, ideal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video is of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks.
Chloe Melas and Rita Cosby joining us. Let`s go to both of these ladies. First to you, Chloe Melas. What happened? You only file -- and
I`ve file plenty of them, typically in relation to felonies, all right? So I don`t know what this is in relation to, but the bride, that bride you
just heard talking about how happy she was to see him at the end of the aisle, has filed a temporary restraining order against him, according to
his post.
What do we know, Chloe? What`s it all about?
CHLOE MELAS, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: OK, so first, he takes to his Instagram to post pictures over the weekend of this restraining order, with
a really bizarre caption, Nancy, that really left everybody dumbfounded.
And then she on her own social media is posting all these things about how a woman needs to be strong and get out of an unhealthy relationship.
What we do know, Nancy, is that they have been married for six months.
GRACE: OK, interesting after just six months, it`s boiled down to a restraining order. Now, listen, restraining orders are typically taken out
when someone is in fear of serious bodily harm or worse. And that restraining order is an emergency hearing heard in front of a judge,
typically with only one side present.
So what would possess her to go for an emergency hearing in front of a judge? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE NINO: Yes, we`re married, but we`re still strangers. And right now, I think there`s just so much more to learn about her.
CASTRO: I remember Ryan and I just sitting at our table and looking out to our families. Like, they were mingling as if they had known each
other for years. They had just met a few hours ago. No, I don`t think I could have asked for anything better. That was kind of my main concern,
the families. You know, my family can be a little loud. We`re Puerto Rican. So we have that nationally (ph) endowed (ph) side of us.
DE NINO: It was a pleasure having everybody out here supporting us.
(CROSSTALK)
CASTRO: They`re very boisterous and out there, so I was scared that maybe they would have been a little too much, but they were all perfect
(INAUDIBLE) so it worked perfectly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing video of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks.
Rita Cosby, investigative journalist and WABC host -- Rita, I`m trying to figure out what would lead the bride -- because they`ve got these
documents sealed in the family court. Nobody can get near them. Believe me, we`ve been camped out at the courthouse trying.
What would lead this bride to go for an emergency hearing in front of a judge to get a TRO against the groom? What happened?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, Nancy if you look at even on this show, they started fighting from almost day one. Remember, this is
such a bizarre social experiment. These two people didn`t know each other. Jessica is a receptionist at a law firm. Ryan was a small business owner.
They didn`t know each other, even though these, like, psychologists figure out, OK, this is going to be your perfect mate...
GRACE: Put her up, please.
COSBY: ... but they didn`t know each other and they did not get along from day one.
GRACE: Well, you know what? Rita, you know, the way you keep saying they didn`t know each other, they didn`t know each other -- I get it. They
don`t -- didn`t know each other. They joined this reality show. Don`t know how much they got paid to do this...
COSBY: Right.
GRACE: ... but they get married. We just saw the wedding. I don`t know if it`s a real wedding or not, but they got married.
COSBY: It is, by the way. It is a real wedding.
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) real wedding. So long story short, people on the street don`t know each other, and they don`t threaten each other or put one
in fear of serious bodily harm. So just because they didn`t know each other before, why should that make it impossible for this to be happening?
There is a reason that this bride goes for an emergency hearing in front of a judge to demand a restraining order to protect her against her own groom.
[20:10:15]This has just gone down, but look at what Rita`s talking about. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE NINO: Jess had, like, made up some complete scenario about (INAUDIBLE) Really bothered me.
CASTRO: Ryan thinks that everything is OK. It`s fine. It`s OK. Everything is exactly that. I don`t think that he realizes that he can
switch like that, quick.
So that`s it? Conversation done?
DE NINO: I got nothing to say to you. I don`t owe you anything. You don`t understand the fact that I pretty much changed my life for you.
CASTRO: We even had this conversation the other day. When he argues with someone, they argue, and in two hours, they`re over it. I`m, like,
No, that`s not OK. I will be mad at you for, like, two days. But that`s normal to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: ... from FYI and A&E networks.
Unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler, high-profile divorce lawyer, Richard Herman, renowned defense attorney joining us tonight out of Vegas,
and Misty Marris, defense attorney out of New York.
First of all, to you, Richard Herman. Every couple argues. Everybody has a fight over something, whether, you know, it`s the toothpaste screw
top or -- or whatever. But that`s a far cry, that`s a long stretch to a temporary restraining order, Richard Herman?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, most couples don`t have mental disorders and are media hounds to agree to go on a show and get
married at first sight. That`s what this is about here. This is about attention, their 30 seconds of fame. I don`t put any credence in this ex
parte application.
Nancy, here`s a bombshell. A lot of these TROs are brought by disgruntled spouses to try to hurt their spouse, no reality and no
foundation in reality for these motions. I think this is going to be dismissed.
GRACE: OK. You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re saying...
HERMAN: They`re looking for 30 seconds of fame here.
GRACE: You`re dismissing every woman that has ever filed a TPO or TRO...
HERMAN: Not every woman.
GRACE: ... against a man...
HERMAN: I said many of them.
GRACE: ... that she feels threatened by. I mean, you`re totally minimizing the whole process. And you know, he`s leaving something out,
Kessler. Hey, Kessler, wake up, friend. Wake up!
RANDY KESSLER, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: I`m here.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Listen, Kessler, he`s totally ignoring the fact that there is a judge in the mix. This isn`t some made-for-TV judge. This isn`t a
pretend judge pretending to give a TRO.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a family court judge.
GRACE: This is a real judge on the bench that has an emergency hearing called by her, and the judge grants it.
KESSLER: Right, but Richard is right. This is not a criminal case. It`s a civil case. And the judge is going to err on the side of caution.
And the judge should do that. The judge is going to say, I don`t want to deny this order and find out tomorrow that I was wrong. So they`re going
to err on the side, almost always, of granting the order...
GRACE: When you...
KESSLER: ... but it`s a civil case.
GRACE: I want to correct something you`re saying...
KESSLER: OK.
GRACE: ... because a civil case typically means it`s about money damages, but Missy Marris, when you have a temporary restraining order in a
domestic situation, it typically means that one party is in fear of serious bodily injury or death. That`s why you get a restraining order. Right,
wrong?
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In theory, Nancy, but here we have a vindictive woman who may have been having a bad breakup.
HERMAN: Exactly.
MARRIS: I`m not minimizing everybody who goes out and gets a TRO. I`m talking about this couple in particular.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Do you watch the show?
MARRIS: I did watch part of the show, and they`re fighting all the time.
GRACE: You did watch part of the show, what, the SOT I just showed you? Why are you saying she`s a vindictive woman? Why are all of you
three ganging up on the woman?
KESSLER: Because they`re publicity hounds. That`s why. Because he hasn`t had a chance to speak. He has not had his side heard.
MARRIS: Exactly. And ex parte orders are liberally given. All she has to do is make the allegation, and she`s got it.
GRACE: OK, I want to go back to Rita Cosby, investigative journalist, WABC host. Rita, something made this judge go along with her argument. I
don`t care how they met or why they got married, but she has gone to seek protection from this court. A TRO, temporary restraining order, is often
called a TPO, temporary protective order. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE NINO: Jess, I don`t owe you anything!
CASTRO: But you need to talk to me!
DE NINO: I don`t owe you anything.
(CROSSTALK)
DE NINO: You should know! You should know! It`s using your head that there`s things that you say and you don`t say.
DE NINO: Don`t try to downgrade it just because you drive a Benz.
DE NINO: I`m not. I`m not trying to degrade you. The problem is what you say to me...
CASTRO: Yes. Exactly.
DE NINO: That`s it. I don`t care. I`m not the one that`s emotional.
CASTRO: I know you don`t.
DE NINO: I don`t because I don`t like this. I don`t like what I see!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:44]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jessica Castro and Ryan De Nino tied the knot on the hit reality show "Married at First Sight." It doesn`t seem
like they found happily ever after.
CASTRO: I don`t know (INAUDIBLE)
DE NINO: You should know! You should know! It`s using your head that there`s things that you say and you don`t say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is video of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks.
In the last hours, we learn that the TV bride has filed a TRO, retraining order, against her groom. Typically, TPOs and TROs are filed
when someone is in fear of serious bodily harm or worse.
Joining me right now is a very well respected lawyer in multiple jurisdictions, attorney Marc Rapaport, and he is representing the bride.
Mr. Rapaport, the claim in the temporary protective order -- and I know that you and your client are under certain restrictions as to what you
can discuss and what you cannot discuss legally, but are there claims of threats of violence in the TPO?
RAPAPORT: The family offense petition which was filed on Friday -- well, it speaks for itself, but it alleges that there were two threats made
by the respondent against my client`s life. Those -- that is why this was filed. It`s as simple as that.
[20:20:13]This was not filed for publicity in any way, shape or form. I had never even heard of the show at the time I was retained, which was
last week. The court entered an ex parte order on Friday morning directing the defendant or respondent to stay away from my client and to refrain from
any and all communications. That temporary order remains in effect until there is a hearing next month.
GRACE: Mr. Rapaport, the threat -- you mentioned two -- on the bride -- were there any threats on her family, as well?
RAPAPORT: The petition alleges that one of the threats made specific reference to my client`s family members.
GRACE: We also know that tonight is the finale, the reunion show, so to speak.
Let`s take a look at the timeline very quickly. Liz, if you could show me that? We know that they get married December 12th, 2014. The
season begins to air, including the wedding, just three months later, March 17.
June 11, about four months, the petition filed. After that, June 13, Ryan posts the TRO, the restraining order, on his own Instagram, doesn`t
even seem to be embarrassed about it. June 16, tonight, the first of a two-part special, reunion.
I want to find out this -- Chloe Melas, senior reporter, Hollywoodlife.com. Has the whole thing been orchestrated? And how much do
these people pay -- get paid to do this show? Let`s start with that, Chloe.
MELAS: All right, Nancy. Actually, reality stars do not get paid that much money. I know that that`s a huge shock, but unless you`re a big
breakout star like Snooki...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa!
MELAS: ... then you make a lot of money.
GRACE: Break it down. What do you mean, not that much money?
MELAS: Maybe under $5,000 total. And that might sound like a lot of money, Nancy, but a lot of people believe that people are making hundreds
of thousands of dollars, but that only happens if you...
GRACE: Do you know...
MELAS: ... get to, like, Bethany Frankel`s (ph) level.
GRACE: ... how much they make? Do you know?
MELAS: I do not know...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re just throwing out figures?
MELAS: I`m just saying that from my experience reporting on reality TV shows over the past several years, I consider myself an expert when it
comes to reality TV. And also, Nancy, I don`t believe they`re doing this for reality TV show ratings.
GRACE: Can I ask you the question again?
MELAS: Sure.
GRACE: Do you know how much they got paid to be on this show?
MELAS: No, I don`t know that.
GRACE: OK. Rita Cosby, do you know how much they got paid to be on this show? Because if you`ve got a TRO filed against you, why would you
post that on your own Instagram? I would be hiding out in a cave!
COSBY: Yes, it`s interesting, and he`s responding, by the way, before I forget, Nancy, on the Instagram, saying, Check me, basically saying
there`s more to the story.
The other thing that`s important to your point, Nancy -- this window. The show pays for a divorce if they get divorced within six months of when
they get married. It`s within less than a day when that filing took place. So it`s very interesting timing.
GRACE: I don`t know what you mean by that, less than a day. Are you saying that less than one day, the six-month mark?
COSBY: Yes. Exactly. So that filing happened, that TRO. So that`s interesting.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you this. Do you know, Rita, how much do they get paid to be on a reality show?
COSBY: Not a lot. I don`t know more than Chloe, but I can tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... not a lot? You know, because -- for instance, people that compete on "Dancing With the Stars," if you all stay in for three weeks,
y`all get paid the same thing. Then for each -- I mean, most people that make it to the end or the coveted final five give their money away to a
charity. But if you stay in each week, each week, each week, you get paid more.
You`re seeing video of "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks.
So I`m just wondering, if you go through with the marriage, do you get a bonus? And there`s all sorts of -- unleash the lawyers, Randy Kessler,
Richard Herman, Misty Marris.
To you, Randy Kessler. For instance, TV networks will say things like, Oh, we didn`t pay for that interview. We would never do that. But
they did pay $50,000 to license the pictures. In other words, the person giving the interview goes, Oh, here`s a picture from my photo album. It`ll
cost you 50 grand. Yes, we`ll pay for the photos, but not for the interview. We would never.
So to say they don`t get paid to do this, I find that very hard to believe, Randy.
KESSLER: Well, you know, they`re getting exposure. And if they can take that and parlay that into something else, into an acting career on TV
or on movies, good for them. A lot of people think this is the entre into having their own product line. But I agree, they`re not getting a lot of
money.
[20:25:08]But why would he post that -- that may be a violation in and of itself of the restraining order. The restraining order may say...
GRACE: I don`t think posting an order against you is violating the restraining order. But I do know this, Richard Herman. If he does truly
violate the restraining order and get too close to her, she can have him thrown in jail.
HERMAN: Yes. He can, Nancy. And it`s quasi-criminal jurisdiction in the family court. He can be arrested and incarcerated...
GRACE: Oh, now you`re singing a different verse. First you`re screaming it`s civil. It`s civil.
(CROSSTALK)
HERMAN: I think it`s all garbage!
GRACE: The guy can go to jail.
HERMAN: I think the whole thing is publicity and garbage. It`s garbage. It`s all for publicity!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE NINO: It was a pleasure having everybody here supporting us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan says Jessica filed an order of protection (INAUDIBLE) and disgusted him.
CASTRO: I don`t know!
DE NINO: You should know! You should know. It`s using your head that there`s things that you say and you don`t say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:30:00]
GRACE: That is "Married at First Sight" from FYI and A&E networks. In the last hours, we learned the TV bride filed a temporary protective
restraining order against the groom. We are now learning that violence was alleged, violence, threats are alleged in that temporary protective order.
That the bride has been placed in fear. There are at least two threats. We are learning that`s in that that TPO, threats of harm. Bodily harm,
allegedly made by this groom.
So just let me ask you this, lawyers, Randy Kessler, Richard Herman, Misty Marris, what about the network? They cooked this whole marriage up.
They have the bride and groom along the aisle, and they get married and boom, the bride is filing a protective order claiming at least two threats
of violence? So where does that land them? They`re like the puppet master.
HERMAN: If it was scripted by the network, they could have some problems here. But I think this whole thing is contrived, Nancy. These
people are semi-psychotic. Ask Kessler, in his entire career, his entire matrimonial career, how many times has he seen a client post a restraining
order on the Internet or publish it to anybody. You were right earlier. Nobody does that. These people are media attention hounds. That`s all
they`re doing here.
GRACE: Hold on. You`re throwing the bride and the groom together in the same pot.
HERMAN: Yes, yes, I am.
GRACE: Randy Kessler, the groom may have done that, but you keep -- you all keep ignoring the fact that a lawyer in good standing and with good
reputation, Mark Rappoport (ph), in that jurisdiction, takes that to a judge, convinces a judge he was impartial. That judge doesn`t give a fig
about a reality show.
HERMAN: Doesn`t take much.
GRACE: They issue a protective order, and we know at least two claims of physical threats are in there. Bodily harm.
HERMAN: Claims.
GRACE: I`m just surprised you`re glossing this over. What do you mean, because he`s on TV, he can`t possibly threaten violence, he can`t be
a criminal because he`s on TV? Is that what you guys are saying?
KESSLER: They met a threshold. They obviously met a threshold. There was some violence or some act of violence, but she didn`t take out a
criminal warrant. She didn`t have him arrested. So something less or something not as serious --
GRACE: That happens every day. Every day. I`ve been there. Women first start with a TPO or a TRO. That`s the first step.
MARRIS: That`s what it is, Nancy, it`s a temporary restraining order. All she needed to do was make the allegation. Later this case will go to a
hearing. He`ll have the opportunity to present his side, and she`ll have the opportunity to present her side, and that`s when the judge will make a
decision on the merits.
GRACE: We`ve already gone through what happened. What a TRO is, what a TPO is, we know that. We know that just one side was heard, but what I`m
-- you guys are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. You`re trying to pretend that nothing happened. That`s what people always want to
do in light of -- in the face of domestic or marriage or living together violence or threats of violence. Look the other way. Nothing happened.
It`s domestic. It doesn`t matter. Well, I disagree. I disagree.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:50]
GRACE: A high price progressive Montessori school busted after an anonymous source videos preschool tots being attacked by teachers on the
playground. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking video showing toddlers being pushed to the ground, held by their feet and dragged by their arms in the outdoor
play area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the Apple Montessori school, an apparently frustrated worker shoved a 2-year-old down after having trouble putting on
the child`s hat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m appalled at the way they treated that child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from Youtube, breaking news. Straight out to Marc Klaas, the president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Mark, that`s
just the tip of the iceberg. If you keep watching this video, see the baby laying there crying after she shoves it to the ground? Another child comes
over and tries to comfort it. She`ll go over there in a moment and jerk that child up and drag it away. And there`s another video that we`re going
to show you where another Montessori schoolteacher holds a tiny baby upside down. That`s her right there. The baby is upside down.
Now I watched this video and it goes on for several minutes, where she holds the baby upside down. That`s after she has already sat her down on
her bottom. Video from Youtube, breaking news. But she holds this baby upside down for a long, long time. Holding it up in the air by its heels,
Marc.
KLAAS: Yes, Nancy, and I think that anybody that`s thinking of sending their children to a preschool needs to do their research. They
need to find out who the teachers are. They need to see if there have been any complaints lodged to the Better Business Bureau, and they also need to
find somebody that has transparency, and when I say that, what I mean is surveillance cameras throughout the facility in all of the common places so
that parents can log into the Internet any time and see what`s going on with their kids. I think that would clear up a lot of these problems.
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Rita Cosby, investigative journalist and an ABC host, what happened, Rita?
COSBY: First, somebody had seen a history of abuse. This wasn`t accidental, the videotaping. Someone at a high-rise window actually using
their cell phone saw this, and what makes this worse, Nancy, not only the abuse where you`re seeing the children just being flung and being pushed
around, they went to the school, and when they went to the school, one of the supervisors there said well, maybe we`ll just suspend them for 30 days,
and that`s when the person decided to release the video publicly, because they were so outraged that the school was not doing enough.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist and medical examiner. Thank you for being with us. What`s disturbing is that as Rita
just said, somebody was poised in an apartment building apparently across from the Montessori school, because they had seen abuse many times in the
background is the allegation, so they were poised to video. They see that woman throwing the tot down, dragging the tot around, and then the other
tot is really held for a -- look at her lying there. Is held for a long period of time upside down. Dr. Morrone.
MORRONE: Here`s the two most damaging and painful things that you recognize from this. No. 1, none of this is an accident. It`s thought
out. It`s premeditated. And No. 2, these things don`t happen as the first time and then they`re caught. Take a look, the average baby that you would
hold would always be held with supporting the head, and slamming, dropping, pressing, that`s not good. The skull of a baby is approximately the same
hardness as a two-liter bottle, and to do damage to the skull of a baby is like you can press on a bottle. Banging a kid is not a good thing.
Pressing a kid down and holding a kid upside down can damage the neck, which is permanent for life and could cause tortacavas (ph), a syndrome.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, everyone, joining me from Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, we couldn`t show it in full just then, but I watched the video
with my own two eyes. I finally quit watching it because it went on and on and on, of the woman holding the baby up by its heels in the air.
What can that do to a baby?
MORRONE: Here`s what you have to understand. In a child, the head is always disproportionately heavy, and when you hold a child upside down, it
stretches the neck. You don`t have to be Einstein. You don`t have to understand a lot of physics. And I could be a bull in the china shop, but
the head will pull the spinal cord and you`ll get damage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:20]
GRACE: Day 10, two convicted murderers break out of a U.S. maximum security prison 20 miles south of the U.S.-Canadian border. The elaborate
escape takes two years to plan and carry out, but what about the married prison employee working in the tailor shop? What possibly could convince a
mother to help two cold-blooded killers dig their way out of a maximum security facility? In the last hours, is a sex relationship between the
married mom Joyce Mitchell and at least one of the inmates confirmed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mitchell had a sexual relationship with Matt, and in the past she had been investigated for having an inappropriate
relationship with Sweat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This obviously has become a national media high profile case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials say she had been sneaking both men certain supplies like glasses with lights on them beginning over a year and
a half ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neither said nothing about taking off or anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody involved is getting very frustrated not getting our hands on these two individuals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to special guest Neil Tallon, a former parole officer there at Clinton CI, correctional institute. Thank you for being
with us tonight.
NEIL TALLON, FORMER PAROLE OFFICER, CLINTON CI: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Mr. Tallon, I know that you told us that she, the married mom, Joyce Mitchell, was teaching the inmates tailoring, in other words, how to
repair sewing machines. How to use the sewing machines. And that is how she came into contact with these two guys, most likely. But I also heard
you say that typically, there`s a jailhouse guard in there with them. So I just don`t understand how Joyce Mitchell would have the opportunity to have
sex with either or both of them. I don`t understand how that can happen.
TALLON: I have been in that prison over a thousand times, and so it had to be pretty secretive. I don`t know where she would have had the sex,
but it probably wasn`t the type of sex that we think sex would be. It would be some other form of sex.
GRACE: Now, I understand that. OK, the kind of sex that you could complete in a broom closet, essentially. With me is Neil Tallon, a former
parole officer there at Clinton CI.
I was just amazed at how they went through the wall and nobody noticed. Let`s see those six pictures that we showed the viewers
yesterday. First of all, this is a shot of the hole that they cut through their wall, apparently under their bed.
[20:50:00]
They then crawl out second onto a cat walk. They then -- you can see right there the rectangle that leads into their cell. They walk along this
catwalk for many, many hundreds of feet. Then, No. 3, they go down this ladder. I think it`s about 400 feet. They continue going down. And then
four, they manage to get into one of these sewer pipes, and they crawl and crawl and crawl until they are coming up in a manhole. Let`s see No. 5
here. They are getting out. They leave a sticky note. Then they come up out of No. 6, a manhole, there, on a civilian street corner.
Mr. Tallon, my big question is how they managed to do this. There was construction going on at Clinton C.I. And apparently they would use the
tools and very carefully replace the tools the next morning so they would never be lost or noticed gone. This went on for two years.
TALLON: Well, I think that`s the question on everybody who even works there, how did all this happen? I would say probably there was some luck
involved in it. And they used the cover of that construction for a lot of it. But my point would be if they went through this sophisticated
breakout, you would think they wouldn`t be hanging around the prison here for the last 11 days.
GRACE: With me right now, Clark Goldband, where are the reports coming from about the sexual relationship with one of the inmates?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, at this hour I can tell you a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation telling CNN that this woman had a sexual
relationship with at least one of the men and had an inappropriate relationship with the other. Again, Nancy, this comes from a source with
knowledge of the investigation.
GRACE: To Percy Pitzer joining us, former federal prison warden, CEO of Creative Corrections, Percy, what`s your response to any of these
questions?
PERCY PITZER, CEO, CREATIVE CORRECTIONS: Well, you know, things happen in the prison. First of all, thanks for having me on.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
PITZER: I`ve had situations. I had a situation where a female was caught in a broom closet, for crying out loud, having sexual relations with
an inmate. I called her in the office and I said, why did you do this? And she told me, which really, really surprised me, that you know, when I
go home, my husband`s abusive to me. And when I come in here, the inmates treat me nice. So those kind of things happen.
GRACE: To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and Keshia Clukey joining us from Albany Times Union. Keshia, we are hearing she was not
plan A. They planned the breakout. She was going to be the getaway car. She didn`t show up. How does she even factor into this? And what are you
hearing about an alleged plot to kill the husband?
KESHIA CLUKEY, ALBANY TIMES UNION: Sources have told the Times Union that she was the plan to get away and drive the getaway car. Whether or
not she was plan A or plan B is certainly unclear now. But it will come out, I`m sure.
GRACE: To Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist joining us out of Miami, Dr. Bober, thanks for being with us. What would possess a married
mom to have a sex relationship with a convicted killer? And not just give into temptation, but then help with a two-year plan for them to bust out?
Everything she risked for what?
BOBER: Well, you know, Nancy, it happens actually fairly commonly. Not only am I a forensic psychiatrist, but I`ve worked for several years in
the correctional environment. Prisons are places with very rigid boundaries. And a lot of the people who work in prisons are also people
who have personal lives that are in disarray. They very often have a poor sense of self-concept and self-esteem. And these prisoners, very many of
them are psychopaths or sociopaths, are people that are very adept at preying on people who are weak, who are fragile, and they use that sort of
superficial charm to get things from them. And for someone who is in a personal situation where they may not feel validated, it`s very common that
these prisoners are giving them something that they need. And it`s mutually beneficial for both of them, even if it`s pathological.
[20:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Let`s remember. American hero, Navy Petty Officer First Class Jerry Tharp, 44, Muskotene, Iowa. Purple Heart. Navy and Marine Corps
Commendation Medal. Also served the Army. Loved scuba diving. Camping, fishing. Parents Lyle and Donna, two sisters, three brothers, widow Gail,
two step daughters and four grandchildren. Jerry Tharp, American hero. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 Eastern sharp. Until then,
good night, friend.
END
