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Nancy Grace
Search Continues for Missing Idaho Tot. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 16, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news in the mystery of a 2-year-old boy who vanishes at a remote Idaho campsite. His
parents are convinced their toddler boy has been kidnapped. The searching for Deorr Kunz continues at this hour. The family is standing by, vowing
to not leave until they find their son.
But who was the last person to see the little boy before he disappears? Tonight, we uncover who else was at that Timber Creek campground the day
Deorr goes missing without a trace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the campsite where Deorr and his family were camping. The creek is just here, a few yards away.
DEORR KUNZ, SR., FATHER: We decided we`re going to go a little exploring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They went up this way, away from the campsite.
KUNZ: He was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By the time the parents came back...
KUNZ: We weren`t more than probably 50 yards away and 10 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deorr was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And another search continues tonight. In a shocking discovery near a New Haven train station, human legs found hidden in the bushes. A
few blocks away, another stunning discovery, human arms dumped in a plastic bag. Are they even related? Authorities trying to ID right now the victim
or victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rotting smell.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nasty whiff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A plastic bag with something awful inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Found what appears to be a human arm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just eight hours earlier, police discovered two human legs in a wooded area near the State Street train station.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: And a Connecticut couple rush their tiny newborn to the ER with a severe swollen leg. The infant is just a few weeks old. By the time the
doctors finish examining the baby, they uncover 20 fractures all over the baby`s body.
The mother and father -- they allegedly say they have no idea how that happened. But when law enforcement asks for answers, they reportedly
lawyer up, refusing to talk to police.
Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us.
We begin tonight in the bizarre case of a 2-year-old boy who mysteriously vanishes at an Idaho campground.
Let`s go straight out to the reporter Nate Eaton, with Eastidahonews. Nate, you`ve been right thought where the search is happening. What are
you hearing about who else was at the campsite when 2-year-old Deorr disappears?
NATE EATON, EASTIDAHONEWS.COM: Well, we know that Deorr`s parents were there, along with his great-grandfather and a friend of the great-
grandfather. At this point, we don`t know much about that friend. Police aren`t saying much, but they are telling us that at this point, they
believe the parents are clear, that they did nothing wrong and that they just want their son back.
CASAREZ: All right. I think we want to show everybody right out there -- Nate, you were out there, and we want to show exactly to everybody what
that area is like where they were, where this little boy went missing and where they`re searching. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EATON: This is the campsite where Deorr and his family were camping. It looks like your average campsite. You`ve got a fire pit, a picnic table,
very close to the creek that we have heard so much about.
In fact, the creek is just here, a few yards away. Notice the terrain down to the water. It`s very steep. It would be difficult for a young child to
make their way down that hill. It is possible, but again, it is a steep hill.
Now, we`re told that the parents and all of the family were here together when the parents decided to go off exploring. They went up this way, away
from the campsite, while Deorr stayed here with his grandfather. By the time the parents came back about 10 or 15 minutes later, Deorr was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Now, it`s very interesting what you`re showing us, what you`re telling us. And there is water there. And I`ve asked some questions, so I
understand there is a creek that goes into the reservoir, the reservoir which is also called a lake. And they are continuing to search down there
in the water area. What`s happening right now?
EATON: They are. They`re -- as we speak, they`ve been there several times. We`ve been told the search and rescue crews have gone through that
creek on their hands and knees, combing every inch of that creek.
But they`ve really been focusing on the reservoir. In fact, we`re hearing that some of the dogs, the search dogs, may have picked up a scent. Not
sure what that scent is, but it seems that the focus today and the past few days has been that reservoir.
CASAREZ: But the fact is, they aren`t finding him. They`re not finding anything about him, any articles of clothing or his cowboy boots or
anything at all. So the dogs are hitting on the water, but they`re not finding anything.
So to Cheryl Dorsey. She`s a retired sergeant with the Los Angeles Police Department in Los Angeles. What are your thoughts at this point because
they`re continuing to search in that area. The parents believe this child was kidnapped out of that camping area by someone, who is unknown at this
point and could be anywhere in Idaho or in the country at this point. Your thoughts?
[20:05:16]CHERYL DORSEY, RET. LAPD SERGEANT: Well, you know, not knowing a lot about the area, and the number of people that were also visiting that
campsite would make we wonder why the parents would think someone else would have the child. And it`s possible that the child may not have been
able to negotiate that steep path down to the river, but could have fallen. So there`s so many possibilities and locations where this child could be.
It`s very troubling.
And the fact that the parents didn`t ensure that someone was watching the little boy when they walked away to investigate the area is -- is
problematic for me.
CASAREZ: Dr. Bill Manion, forensic pathologist joining us from Philadelphia. That -- we saw the terrain right there. For a little boy
like that, 2-and-a-half years old -- he would fall down. If he would fall down, he would probably get scraped and there would be blood. And they
have had dogs out there for days now. They have not picked up that scent of blood, as far as we know.
What does that tell you? It adds more to the mystery here.
DR. BILL MANION, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone: Exactly. Maybe the child didn`t fall down that way. The other thing -- are there wild animals
in the area? Could the child have been grabbed by an animal and carried off or carried into the water? The child can only survive for a couple
days without food and maybe four or five days without water. So time is running out.
CASAREZ: Matt Zarrell, we do know that the family has been asked for their DNA. Tell us about that.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes. So the cops say that NCMEC, which is the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children
-- they want their DNA samples on file because, as we are talking about, if this was an abduction and if the child is found somewhere else in the
country, they would like to have the DNA on file so they could easily check to see if there`s a match.
We don`t know yet if the parents have officially given their DNA, but there`s no indication that would be any issue. They`re cooperating 100
percent.
CASAREZ: And that`s something we want to make sure everybody realizes. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children -- they are down
there at the search site now. This is the national organization that you hear about that is so responsible for having missing children become united
back with their parents again.
Matt Zarrell, one more thing. Lie detector tests, polygraphs -- have any of them been done at all with family members?
ZARRELL: No, but the cops are telling us on the record that the parents have volunteered to take polygraphs, but the sheriff doubts that they would
even be administered at this time.
Jean, they`re really focusing on the scene. They want to make sure that the child is not there before they move on to other possibilities.
CASAREZ: And also, the family -- they are staying right there. They are camping. You know, they`re from Idaho Falls, Idaho. They`re not going
home. They`re staying right there in a tent, right where they`re searching for their son, and they vow that they`re not leaving until that son is
found.
To Wendy Patrick, a prosecutor in Los Angeles. This is a missing persons case. But they are obviously searching everywhere. They`re leaving all
options opened. If a crime has been committed -- this is U.S. forestry land, where this is right here. So that would be a federal jurisdiction,
right?
WENDY PATRICK, PROSECUTOR: Well, probably so, Jean. And you know, one of the interesting things that you brought up about this case is that in the
CSI world of forensic evidence, it`s hard to go missing without a trace. There`s not so much as a sock, not a bloodstain, not hair. I mean,
nothing, which makes it to some people, look like an abduction.
So whatever jurisdiction ends up -- and it may actually be several jurisdictions that end up doing this investigation -- it`s going to really
look like an abduction until and unless they can find some circumstantial evidence that it was a natural death.
In other words, they`re leaving every option on the table at this point because it is so highly unusual to vanish, literally, without a trace, as
has happened here.
CASAREZ: Randy Kessler, defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta -- they have to keep every option open. And they say and reiterate that the family
is cooperating. We do know that the friend of the grandpa, the mother and father, had never met before. That can happen, right?
But in regard to anybody else who may have been in that very desolate area -- we don`t believe that there were any roadblocks done right after this
child went missing because there`s one way in and one way out.
Did they make a mistake? Did they take an opportunity and not go forward with a possibility here that could have helped them?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, hindsight is 20/20. And we don`t know what the lawyer for the parents is conveying to the
authorities. But the bottom line is we know where the parents are, and they`re not running, they`re not leaving. So we have them, so to speak, in
the bag if we need to ask them questions or need to prosecute them.
Right now, you`ve got to explore every other option and rule out everything. Wild animals is not an out of the question possibility.
[20:10:02]You know, this child is going to show up somewhere. We hope the child`s alive when he shows up, but if he`s not, those animals could easily
be the answer that everybody`s looking for.
CASAREZ: You know, that`s true, but Cheryl Dorsey, when you look at wild animals, and as you`re doing the police investigation there, wild animals
lead to blood. Wild animals -- I guess a bear could swallow whole, but there could be some clothes or remnants or fibers or anything.
Forensically, they`re not finding anything, Cheryl.
DORSEY: Yes, and you know, also, you would think that if the child was grabbed either by an animal or another person, that he probably would have
made a sound. I mean, we don`t hear him doing anything that would have alerted the attention of the grandfather. So it just seems very strange to
me that he would come up missing just in an instant, in a moment, without a trace.
CASAREZ: That`s right. That`s right. And adults in every vicinity right there believing they`re keeping an eye on him.
Matt Zarrell, I want go back to something that Randy Kessler just mentioned. We don`t -- the parents don`t have a lawyer, right?
ZARRELL: No, they don`t. They`re cooperating 100 percent. The cops are adamant that they`re doing everything that they can to find the child. And
most importantly, the police are saying publicly they have not made a single conflicting statement. Everything has been very consistent.
They`ve interviewed the family. The police say, I`m good with them and they`re good with me.
CASAREZ: And actually, they have come out saying that on social media that people are trying to blame the parents, and law enforcement is very upset
about that because they believe it`s taking the sight off of the investigation, which should really be looked at.
Nate Eaton, you are right there at the search site in Idaho. We do know that this little boy had a Hot Wheels truck in his pocket. So that`s one
thing did he have with him when he went missing.
Any sight of that at all, which would be such a huge clue at this point?
EATON: Yes, it would be a huge clue. No sight of that. No sight of his toy monkey, of his cup, of his blanket. Those are three items his parents
say he always takes with him wherever he goes. Those were left behind at the campsite. No sign of any of those things, no sign of his cowboy boots,
of his camouflage jacket that he was wearing, of his pajama pants, nothing.
CASAREZ: Doesn`t make sense. Absolutely doesn`t. We`re going to have more in just a minute.
But first, tonight`s "Case Alert." The mystery of the missing Kentucky mother of five, Crystal Rogers -- it continues tonight. Her maroon Chevy
found abandoned on the side of the road with a flat tire, her keys still in the ignition, her purse, her cell phone and a diaper bag left behind. The
ongoing search -- it`s by land, it`s by air, it`s by water. If you have any tips, call Bardstown police at 502-348-3211.
And on another case, go to Nancy`s Facebook page, Facebook.com/nancygracehln, to share Crystal Rogers`s photo and tip line
number. Help spread the word.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like your average campsite. You`ve got a fire pit, a picnic table.
911 OPERATOR: Are you by water?
JESSICA MITCHELL, MOTHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very close to the creek that we have heard so much about. In fact, the creek is just here, a few yards away. Notice the
terrain down to the water. It`s very steep.
KUNZ: Our biggest concern was the creek, which was knee-deep, a few feet wide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six guys, two in wetsuits, step (ph) wading, on their hands and knees, searched it yesterday. We`re searching today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Those are the parents right there of this little boy that`s gone missing. They`re staying right
where the searchers are looking for him. The searchers are actually in the water now, divers in the water, because dogs are hitting on the water. But
they`ve searched the water for days now, and they`re not finding this little boy at all.
To Dr. Bill Manion, forensic pathologist in Philadelphia. Here`s what we`ve learned. We`ve learned that from the campsite area to the lake area,
the water, is 4 tenths of a mile. That`s almost a half a mile there. How long would it take a little 2-and-a-half-year-old to get to the water?
MANION: In that terrain, it would take hours, five hours, six hours. It sounds very unlikely to me in my experience with children that wander off
like this.
CASAREZ: All right. Now, couple that with the fact that the parents say it was 10 minutes that they then realized that neither adult had the child
-- 10 minutes.
Now, we`ve got the police talking about the distance from the campsite to the water and the terrain. Listen to the authorities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Statistically, you know, you come back to the place last seen, which is right down there, and you kind of start over. We`re
using dogs a lot more right now. I believe the statistic is children 1 to 3, they`re found within 4 tenths of a mile, 75 percent are found 4 tenths
of a mile from where they`re last seen. And we`ve gone beyond that, and we`ll continue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Attorney Misty Marris in New York. I have a big inconsistency issue here because 10 minutes is what the family is saying, by the time
they walk to a part of the water where they went to and they saw some minnows and they wanted to bring the child to see the minnows, and they
then realize the child is missing.
We just heard the doctor saying that it would take hours for a little 2- and-a-half-year-old to go 4 tenths of a mile. It doesn`t make sense.
MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it certainly doesn`t. And perhaps that`s what`s leading the family to say, Hey, maybe this is an abduction,
because that timeframe is just so small. But as we know, children, you turn your back, they can run away in an instant.
And here we have a case of a miscommunication between the family member and a guardian -- I thought you were watching them. I thought great-
grandfather was watching them. It`s just really a true mystery at this point.
[20:20:04]CASAREZ: And a tragic, tragic mystery.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us from Los Angeles. You know, the family is continuing to hold onto the belief that this little boy has been
abducted, and maybe he has been. Maybe he`s in a bus stop, a truck stop...
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Maybe.
CASAREZ: ... driving on the highway with someone. That`s why we show his little picture so much so anyone can find him and identify him if they see
a little boy that looks like him. But the family also says it`s at only thing we have to cling onto for hope.
So is this something that psychologically is allowing them to get through this?
MARSHALL: If it was an abduction, that seems likely to me that that kind of a sex offender might be in a remote area. But are there any major
thoroughfares? How would someone take a child so quickly?
CASAREZ: Major questions, important questions. We`ll look at them after the break.
But first, to tonight`s critical missing alert, the search for two Ohio children, just 3 and 5 years old, Michaela (ph) and Marie (ph), last seen
on Tuesday on Main Street with their mother. If you have seen these children, call the Cincinnati police at 513-352-4568.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:09]KUNZ: A split second, your whole world is upside down and -- vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parents decided to go off exploring. They went up this way, away from the campsite, while Deorr stayed here with his
grandfather.
KUNZ: I come back up to get him, and I yelled over to grandpa, Where`s little Deorr? Immediately shocked. He says, I thought he came up to you.
There`s not a single trace of him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. It`s summer. You want to go camping. You go to an area that`s in the state you live in, near Idaho
Falls. That`s where the family is from. And you have all adults. You`re watching your child, and all of a sudden, they`re gone, absolutely gone.
Nate Eaton, you are there. You have spoken with the family. Did they take any pictures of the child before this all happened?
EATON: As far as I know, I don`t think they did. They had just arrived at the campsite that Friday afternoon. And then they set up their camp and
then the parents went off exploring, and when they came back, he was gone. So as far as I know, no recent photos of him.
CASAREZ: You know what I bet, Nate? They found some minnows down at the water and they wanted to bring the little boy to the water to see the
minnows. That`s where they probably would have taken their pictures, once they got down to the water`s edge.
Nate, what else have you learned in talking with the parents, in being there, that we don`t know because we`re here and you`re there?
EATON: The parents are very distraught. They are camped right outside where all of this happened, the mom, the dad and their tent, and a little
campfire. They`re not eating. They`re having a hard time sleeping. They say they`ll do anything to find their little boy, including having a lie
detector test, having a DNA sample. They want people to know they are innocent and they just want their boy back.
CASAREZ: There`s no question. Matt Zarrell, tell me about the search because it`s at the water`s edge. They`re using divers. Dogs have hit
there. But yet they continue to search day after day. I mean, are they changing their method at all of how to go into the water?
ZARRELL: Yes, they are a little bit. So today, the cops tell us that they`re doing a grid search so that they can work from one side of the
reservoir to the other and then move ropes and go to the next grid.
And what`s interesting is, is that cops say that they`re using food coloring to help them stay within the pattern. It helps them to make sure
they cover the whole area, they don`t double up on a place they`ve already searched.
Another thing that`s a problem, Jean, is that the bottom of the reservoir, the foliage is very thick. So if the child was at the bottom of the
reservoir, they`re going to have a very hard time finding him. The cops say they`re going to continue to search that area through the weekend.
They`ll put out the sidescan sonar. They`re going to know 100 percent through the weekend if they`ve got anything in the lake at all.
CASAREZ: Matt, tell me again about the little toy that he actually had with him, the only thing that he had with him, it appears, when he wandered
off or left the campsite area.
ZARRELL: Yes, the grandpa -- we spoke to the grandfather, who says that Deorr had a little toy Hot Wheels truck that was in his pocket. His father
is a truck driver. He really loves trucks. And he had this little toy Hot Wheels truck in his pocket.
But cops haven`t found it yet, and you would think, Jean, that if something happened, if he was grabbed, if he fell, maybe the toy would have fallen
out of his pocket, but cops have not found it.
CASAREZ: And you`d think it would be light and it might float to the top of the water.
Nate Eaton, who is the grandfather`s friend? Is it a male? Is it a female? I mean, what do we know about them?
EATON: We know very little. We know it is a male. He is a man. And he was there with the grandpa and the parents. Police aren`t saying much
about him, other than he is cooperating with their investigation.
We also know the grandpa -- he`s a little older. He has some health issues, and they don`t at this point suspect the grandpa to have anything
to do with the disappearance.
As far as the friend, we`re still gathering information, learning as much as we can on him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:20] CASAREZ: A shocking discovery developing right now near New Haven train station. Human legs found hidden in the bushes. A few blocks
away, another stunning discovery, human arms dumped in a plastic bag. Are they even related? Authorities are trying to I.D. the victim or the
victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The severed lower legs were discovered here beneath some very thick blush.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All of the limbs have decomposed to the point that investigators can`t even say the gender of the victim or victims or what
race they are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Chris Spargo, you are a reporter with the dailymail.com, we do understand that cadaver dogs are at the scene right now continuing to see
if they find anything else, but what are the facts as we know them tonight?
CHRIS SPARGO, REPORTER, DAILYMAIL.COM: So yesterday morning, Wednesday morning, a homeless man actually stopped some police officers saying he had
some legs he`d seen in this thick brush, brings them over and they find these two legs. Later in the day someone reports this horrible smell a few
blocks away they go and they find out first what they think is one arm, turns out it`s multiple arms with the hands chopped off in a plastic bag
right near the same location.
CASAREZ: It`s just unbelievable.
Stacey Newman, what else can you tell us?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: From police that it`s not just one arm, Jean, now they believe there are two arms in that bag and that this is
a secondary crime scene, that they believe if there was some kind of a homicide or dismemberment of a body, it occurred somewhere else and that
these limbs were dumped near the train tracks.
CASAREZ: And this is a story that is developing as we report it to you.
Joining us tonight from New Haven, Connecticut is Officer David Hartman of the New Haven Police Department.
[20:35:05] Thank you, Officer, for joining us. When did you first become alerted that you had human parts near the train station?
OFFICER DAVID HARTMAN, NEW HAVEN POLICE DEPARTMENT: This occurred early Wednesday about 11:00 in the morning when one of our sergeants was
approached by a homeless man and directed to where the two legs were found. As you stated aptly, secluded underneath some very thick foliage and by a
tree line close to the railroad property.
CASAREZ: And then, where was -- in relation to the two human legs, where were the arms found?
HARTMAN: The arms were found -- discovered about 7:00 the same day, yesterday, and about the equivalent of three city blocks away. These
discoveries were made, though, on railroad property. And we are very grateful to have the assistance in the investigation of the Metropolitan
Transportation Authority Police Department.
CASAREZ: And, Officer, we`re looking at a picture right now to show the distance. They weren`t real close together and the arms were found in a
plastic bag, if I`m correct. Can you confirm with us that the arms did not have any hands attached?
HARTMAN: That is correct. The hands were severed from the arms. And the arms were just left alone in a bag. We had originally thought it was one
arm because we don`t like to disturb even the bag that the arm was contained in. So that was confirmed for us by the chief medical examiner`s
office.
CASAREZ: Right. And the legs, I understand, that were from the calf area downward and there were socks but no shoes. Is that correct?
HARTMAN: That is correct.
CASAREZ: Now where are these body parts right now and is an autopsy being done on them?
HARTMAN: The autopsy is being done I believe today at the office of the chief medical examiner and from there, I`m told Monday they will be
transferred to the forensic state laboratory for further scrutiny and investigation.
CASAREZ: Now I guess one big question is you don`t know at this point if they are part of the same torso, right? The same human being?
HARTMAN: That is correct. One of the things that one has to consider when dealing with decomposition is that the decomposition rate for a body part
or a body that`s wrapped in plastic, as were the case with the arms in a plastic bag, would decompose at a different rate because of bacteria and
sunlight and any other factors than the legs, which in our case, were not in a bag and were exposed to elements. So just at a cursory look, we can`t
determine whether or not they are decomposed at the same rate.
CASAREZ: Let me ask you this, I know the legs were found behind thick trees and foliage and brush and that area near the train station. Do you
believe they were placed there or are you going to bring in a forensic botanist to determine if the foliage grew around them?
HARTMAN: We don`t believe that foliage grew around them. We don`t think they were there that long. But as you aptly put earlier in your broadcast,
this is believed to be a secondary crime scene. There`s been no evidence uncovered to suggest that in either case, in either finding, that the limbs
were severed or detached in the area they were found.
So we do rely heavily on the medical examiner`s office and the forensic office to assist us with that. But should they need to bring in a
horticulturist or even someone who has an expertise in insects that may be around there or maggots or anything like that, we expect that that would be
part of the investigation as well.
CASAREZ: Right. Right. And I understand there were some maggots on the legs.
Officer, as you -- as you say, there are multiple crime scenes here potentially because someone was killed, then someone was dismembered and it
wasn`t there because, as you just said there was no blood there and then someone had body parts deposited. Are you looking now not only in
Connecticut, but nationwide, for missing persons and the registries to help identify?
HARTMAN: Certainly. There are national databases and databases that connect departments, especially up in the northeast corridor of the
country, that we are focusing on. But without the gender, race or approximate age of our victim or victims, as it may be, it is very
difficult to start vetting those cases of missing persons or people who have disappeared.
[20:40:05] We do hope that once we get a little bit more information from the forensic scrutiny into this case that that will help us in possibly
connecting these found body parts to a missing person or another crime scene.
CASAREZ: How long will it take the forensics to be done, to determine the gender, the age and ethnicity of these victims?
HARTMAN: I`m not a forensic expert. I`m told, usually approximately a week and a half. There are many tests that have to be done, including
chemical test and so on and so forth. But we are certainly hopeful that we get some results, even in stages, even helpful at the beginning would be
DNA testing that could at least tell us if the arms that were found are the same -- of the same victim that the legs are.
CASAREZ: You know, when we get back from break, I want to ask you about surveillance cameras because I know you have them at intersections. I want
to know if they possibly can help you in this search.
But first, tonight, FBI and police are searching for a North Carolina man wanted in the murder of his wife and stepdaughter. The victims found
inside their burning home in Sanford. Law enforcement is telling us Billy Joe McClean is on the run, taking his teenage son who is disabled and is in
need of medication. McClean driving a 2001 silver Ford Windstar van. If you have any leads, call the Sanford Police Crime Line, 919-775-8346.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:45:47] UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A couple of New Haven cops on a walking beat were alerted that there were severed legs in the vicinity of court and
state streets.
HARTMAN: These legs have been here for at least in their condition for some time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. Cadaver dogs, forensic examiners are still at the scene to determine if there are, in fact, any
more body parts that are being found near a train station in New Haven, Connecticut. And with us on the phone is an officer from the New Haven
Police Department, Officer David Hartman, joining us.
I wanted to ask you one more question. We see from your intersection there that you have cameras on the traffic lights. And that is close to where
the body parts were found. Do those run continually? Can that help you at all to find out who did this?
HARTMAN: Well, we are in a world where there are cameras everywhere, as you well know. And we are certainly going to look into whether any of
those have any recordings. Part of the challenge, though, is when were these body parts deposited there? So it becomes difficult when you have to
think about potentially looking over months of video, if not weeks.
CASAREZ: Yes.
HARTMAN: Some of those cameras, I will also tell you, are monitored that are for the traffic department. They use them to determine the duration of
a light cycle for an intersection. So not all of them are recording cameras.
CASAREZ: But there are businesses in the area, right?
HARTMAN: That is true. And one of the things that is done by detectives in any investigation of a crime is to kind of given an aerial search, you
know, from the ground up, looking to see what cameras are available. And we often get very great cooperation from even private companies and
businesses that have security monitor cameras on the outside or ATM cameras, should there be any in the area.
CASAREZ: But I can see what a puzzle, what a puzzle with that forensic video that could help you. Do you know at all what type of an instrument
was used to dismember the arms and the legs? Was it the same type of instrument?
HARTMAN: I really don`t have that information. That again would be determined by the forensics. But, you know, we can certainly rule out
certain things that were initial questions, such as whether it is in close proximity to the train station, whether the legs could have severed by a
train and we kind of ruled that out because of the distance they would have to travel and the trajectory if they were actually launched. So this is
now -- we are in the process of vetting what isn`t as much as what could be.
CASAREZ: Right. Talking about forensics, Dr. Bill Manion, you`re an expert forensic pathologist, how do you determine through your forensic
testing the age, the gender, the ethnicity of your victims?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, the DNA testing is helpful for male or female. There are actually bone
experts, anthropologists that can examine the bones and looking at the -- even microscopically the growth plates in the bones, give a rough idea of
what age the bone is. Normally you would need a pelvis or a skull to try and get to the race of the individual or the sex of the individual.
These -- these body parts will be X-rayed first to see if there`s any fractures or old healed fractures, for instance. They`ll look for bullet
fragments, maybe the tip of a knife. Later, DNA studies will be performed and I`m sure the surface of these body parts will be examined, if there are
any other bloodstains, maybe from the assailant. You never know if they could have cut themselves dismembering the body and left their own blood on
these body parts.
CASAREZ: All right. Right now everyone, "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD BIENVENUE, CNN HERO: When I was a special ed teacher, I taught carpentry to high risk kids. During the daytime, as the day would kept on,
you`d see that spark. Then they`d go home at nighttime, it would get erased. The tears you would see, the anguish they would go through, I saw
a real need and that`s when the idea hit me, don`t let them go home.
[20:50:08] We provide a residential setting for young men. During the day, they learn trades.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`d like to do --
BIENVENUE: At nighttime they get their high school education. We take on a lot of tough cases from foster care to the court system.
I`m impressed. I`m impressed. Yes.
The emotional support that we give is critical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I worked hard on it.
BIENVENUE: Whoa. Good job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BIENVENUE: The grounds are wide open. Fields, trees. Chickens, animals. It is not a (INAUDIBLE). This is so they become a home to many of them.
When they leave, we try to help them find a job and a place to live. Anything they need we make sure that they have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The program saved my life in every way. I`m currently enrolled in college. I felt like I went from the bottom to the top. Then
he gave me the tools to build my future. I`ve decided to come back and work with youths just like other people worked with me.
BIENVENUE: I don`t want to see any more kids fall through the cracks. If I can give them an opportunity to turn their lives around, to step forward,
that`s my life`s work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:19] CASAREZ: A Connecticut couple rushed their tiny newborn to the ER with severe swollen leg. By the time the doctors finished examining the
baby, they uncovered 20 fractures, all over the baby`s body. The mother and the father allegedly say they have no idea how this happened. But when
law enforcement asked for answers, they reportedly lawyer up, refusing to talk to police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to reports the 1-month-old baby boy sustained multiple broken bones, a mouth injury, and damage to his eye.
Police say the responsible party? The parents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go straight out to Vinnie Penn, who is the host of "The Vinnie Penn Project" WELI, joining us.
What are the facts?
VINNIE PENN, HOST, "THE VINNIE PENN PROJECT": That`s what I`d like to know, to be honest. You know, there are so many varying reports, they
actually don`t even refer to this 18-year-old and 22-year-old as parents. They just say the couple`s child was in the care of. I`m not even quite
certain they are the parents yet, to be honest.
CASAREZ: Well, let`s talk about the injuries. I can give you the facts. The facts are that according to the police affidavit they`re saying that
there are 20 old and new fractures. And I think we have a list of the fractures. I mean, first of all, the baby came in and the parents are
saying the leg is swollen. There was a full fracture of a complete break of the femur in that leg. And then it goes on to have ribs on both sides
of this baby that were fractured, that were broken, on both sides. The eye had an issue. The mouth had an issue.
Clark Goldband, what else can you tell me?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, Jean, we obtained this police report and we got it just moments ago and it details
every single injury that law enforcement and doctors claim this child suffered.
Now, Jean, perhaps most disturbing in these allegations, and they are only allegations at this point, is that doctors said the fractures were in
various stages of healing and recovery, which would indicate all these fractures did not occur at the same time, Jean, and this child is only 1
month old.
CASAREZ: And that is the key right there. And the police report does say that these are the mother -- these are the parents, the mother and the
father.
Dr. Bill Manion, this is a 1-month-old baby. Four weeks. 20 old and new fractures. How can you have old fractures in a 4-week baby?
MANION: Yes, that`s hard to believe. When the fractures heal they form a scar or a callus and doctors can tell from the size of the callus that they
are different ages. That`s a very bad sign, indicates abuse over several weeks.
CASAREZ: All right. Wendy Patrick, prosecutor. Randy Kessler, defense lawyer. Misty Mariss, attorney. All three of you.
Very quickly, Wendy, when I say to you that the parents are out on bond now, $25,000 bond, and they`re out on the streets, you say?
WENDY PATRICK, PROSECUTOR: Unbelievable is what I say. You know, the circumstantial evidence in this case speaks volumes. This child has been
in the world for four weeks. This isn`t a 6-year-old that might have fallen off a swing. So I think some of what the doctor pointed out is
going to be right on the money when it comes to introducing evidence.
CASAREZ: Randy Kessler, in a couple of words, defense?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if they get convicted they`ll pay the time. But they are innocent until proven guilty. They brought the
child to the doctor. If they were guilty there were a lot of other things they could have done to try to hide the body, take it away. They turned
the child in, they brought the child back. And they`re innocent until proven guilty. Don`t take their silence as an admission, they have a right
not to incriminate themselves.
CASAREZ: Misty Marris.
MISTY MARRIS, ATTORNEY: Absolutely. They have a right to an attorney and that has nothing to do with guilt. This type of crime immediately
instigates investigation by the Department of Child and Family Services. They should have an attorney represent them in that instance. If they`re
accused of a crime it is not indicative of guilt at all.
CASAREZ: And the baby is alive in the care of Department of Children and Families.
Tonight we honor Texas firefighter Daniel Gasky who stops an armed robbery at a convenience store. Gasky pushes aside the checkout by the suspect
armed with a knife. What the assailant doesn`t know, Gasky was a former high school wrestler and served eight years in the Marines. Gasky putting
the suspect in a chokehold, wrestling him to the ground, and taking his knife until police arrive.
Daniel Gasky, an American hero.
"DR. DREW" is coming up next. Good night, everybody.
END
