Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Feds Investigate Chokehold Death; Sandra Bland`s Death. Aired 8- 9:00p ET
Aired July 21, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SUNNY HOSTIN, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with the controversial apparent chokehold death of Eric Garner, seen right here in a video from
"The New York Daily News." After a grand jury declined to indict the NYPD officer linked to Garner`s death, well, attention now shifts to possible
federal charges.
Sources are telling us and confirming that a federal investigation is currently under way, and Garner`s family and protesters are calling for
federal prosecutors to indict that officer, well, now, even as the family reaches a multi-million-dollar settlement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC GARNER: I`m minding my business! Please just leave me alone! I told you the last time, please leave me alone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... pushing for Sergeant Daniel Pantaleo, who restrained Garner in the alleged chokehold to be prosecuted.
GARNER: I can`t breathe. I can`t breathe. I can`t breathe!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would bring me real comfort is to see them officers get arrested, lose their jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: That was video from "The New York Daily News."
And tonight, we`re going to go to another controversial arrest, this time of a 28-year-old African-American woman who ends up dead in a Texas
jail cell after what seemed to be a routine traffic stop. Well, tonight, as new surveillance video is released from Sandra Bland`s jail cell, we
will investigate her mysterious death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being treated just as it would be, a murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me understand how her failure to signal a lane change caused her to be out of her vehicle, on the ground, in jail
over the weekend, and now no longer with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: Also tonight, Caitlyn Jenner is reportedly off the hook for felony charges. Video obtained by TMZ shows the deadly chain-reaction
crash on Malibu`s Pacific Coast Highway. A civil lawsuit has been filed against Jenner, but now we are learning that Jenner may only be charged
with a misdemeanor, or that no charges may be brought at all.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Sunny Hostin, in for Nancy Grace tonight. She is on a well-deserved vacation. And thank you so much for spending
time with me.
Well, are federal charges next in the controversial death of Eric Garner? Let`s go straight to Matthew Mari. He is the host of "The Matthew
Mari Show" on WVOX 1460 AM.
Matthew, thanks so much for joining me. Can you catch us up on what the latest is on the federal investigation?
MATTHEW MARI, WVOX (via telephone): Well, first of all, the federal investigation has been in place since the very beginning of this case. It
hasn`t been publicized much or reported much, but the feds have been in this from the very beginning.
Of course, they had to let the state and local investigators do their thing first. The case went to a grand jury, a New York state grand jury,
and the grand jury declined to indict. So as far as criminal charges go in New York state, that`s over and done with.
A federal case is somewhat different than, let`s say, a murder or a homicide charge. It has to involve the violation of someone`s federal
civil rights. So it`s a whole different kind of case. It`s being investigated right now. Nothing seems to be being leaked in that
investigation, and so we don`t really know much at the moment as to how far that`s progressed and where it`s really going to go.
HOSTIN: Well, let`s go to Stacey Newman, NANCY GRACE producer, because I am curious, if this has been going on for at least over a year
then, Stacey, tell me who is conducting this investigation? What are your sources telling you?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, sources are telling CNN, Sunny, that this is a senior top-level team of FBI agents who are
conducting this federal investigation. And here`s what they`re doing.
They`ve gone to the scene of where this chokehold death occurred. They`re interviewing witnesses. They are going to be looking at witness
testimony that in the state investigation has already occurred.
Not only that, what they need to determine here, Sunny, is, was this actually a chokehold death and what that terminology means because that`s
at the crux of this case, Sunny. And they`re also going to be interviewing officers in the case, who responded to the scene, as well as paramedics and
EMTs that arrived on the scene, Sunny.
HOSTIN: Now, you know, Stacey, I think many people know that I`m a former federal prosecutor myself, and so I know a little bit about a
federal investigation and how they are conducted.
[20:05:03]And my sense is that when you`re talking about a federal civil rights investigation, race may play a part in this, or at least
federal prosecutors are going to be looking at whether or not race is playing a part in this.
So what can you tell us about Officer Pantaleo and whether or not he has any sort of history of perhaps civil rights violations?
NEWMAN: I mean, this is the person who has had some stuff in his file, and I`m sure that they`re going to look at this, as you said, Sunny,
in terms of this federal investigation relating to, was this generated because of race?
HOSTIN: Now, Stacey, just to be clear, these other two lawsuits, my understanding is, one was filed in 2013, dismissed, though, in January
2014, about six months before the Eric Garner deadly arrest. The -- there`s another 2014 -- that one is already open.
Is it your understanding that those two men that are claiming civil rights violations were African-American men?
NEWMAN: Oh, yes, Sunny. They were African-American. So that is going to come up when they`re looking at this investigation. You can be
sure about that.
HOSTIN: Well, let`s bring in the attorneys here. I want to bring in Troy Slaten. He`s a defense attorney. And Troy, you know, we`re talking
about trying to prove a federal civil rights investigation. I also have with me Randy Kessler. Thank you so much for joining me.
Troy, to you first. What does this mean? A grand jury decided not to indict in New York. Do you think a federal investigation is appropriate
and may, you know, end up in federal charges?
TROY SLATEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, an investigation is appropriate, but I really doubt it`ll end up in charges. The federal government would
have to show that this officer acted unreasonably and excessive, and basically, on purpose tried to violate Eric Garner`s constitutional right
to be free from an unreasonable search and seizure, which is exactly what happened here.
The police are allowed to use force in order to effectuate an arrest and take somebody down. And here, you know, although I don`t want to
further victimize the -- essentially, the victim of a death here, but Eric Garner wasn`t cooperating. He wasn`t just putting out his arms and
allowing himself to be handcuffed. So the issue will be whether the force level used was excessive and unreasonable.
HOSTIN: Well, Randy, to you, then. I mean, isn`t it true that chokeholds have been prohibited in New York for quite some time?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. And in fact, they`re going through more training now to try to change that, make sure officers don`t
do that again. But that may be a system-wide problem. That may not be this officer-specific. I mean, there was the $5.9 million settlement which
makes everybody worry. And there`s outrage from the video.
But you know, the New York state did not prosecute, and it`s going to be a little bit even harder for the feds to do. They`ve got to find a
little bit more than just he acted wantonly and willfully. They`ve got to find some, like you said, race, motive, something that`s beyond just a
mere, I did more than I should have done.
And this -- I mean, New York state, they are trying to fix it, but that can`t be brought into trial. You can`t say subsequent measures, now
they`re trying to fix it, oh, there must have been a problem. Otherwise, nobody would try to fix anything.
HOSTIN: Well, Troy, what do you say to the fact that chokeholds have been prohibited in New York policing for quite some time, and you have an
officer, Officer Pantaleo, who, by everyone`s account, seems to be performing a chokehold on Eric Garner? And he has a history of having
allegations against him of civil rights violations.
SLATEN: Look, Eric Garner was a very big guy. And it looked like to me, from watching the video, that the officers were progressing -- meaning
they were using progressive force. They didn`t just suddenly come up to him and jump on him and put him in a chokehold. They tried to reason with
him. They were standing around there, and it looks to me like they were trying to slowly escalate it. They didn`t want it to get to that right
away.
So another important thing will be to look at, what did this officer do to try and resuscitate him? What other actions did he take there at the
time of the arrest to ensure the safety of the arrestee?
HOSTIN: Well, let`s talk about that with Matthew Horace. He`s a law enforcement and security expert, senior vice president of HFJC Security.
Matthew, I am curious, based on your training, what is your assessment of how officers responded in this situation, considering the fact that
chokeholds have been prohibited in New York?
MATTHEW HORACE, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SECURITY EXPERT: Sunny, well, I have to tell you, in 28 years of federal, state and local law enforcement,
I have arrested or participated in the arrest of hundreds of suspects. I have never seen anyone use a chokehold to arrest someone.
[20:10:07]It is our duty in this situation to effect an arrest that keeps the public safe and keeps us safe at the same time. And I can`t
imagine for the life of me -- when you look at that video, the person went right for the neck, he choked him. When Mr. Garner said he couldn`t
breathe, he continued to choke him.
When it was clear that he was lifeless, no one gave him first aid. There were officers there that didn`t help. And that`s another issue that
I`ve had since the beginning of this incident. We were always taught to administer first aid when people needed it, and this wasn`t done in this
case.
HOSTIN: Well, Matthew, I think we need to mention that Officer Pantaleo`s attorney has indicated that this was not a chokehold that
Officer Pantaleo -- what people are calling a chokehold -- did not perform a chokehold. What do you say about that?
HORACE: How can he say it wasn`t a chokehold? He was choking him by the neck. The suspect said he couldn`t breathe, and he kept choking him.
You know, I watched this video in its entirety last week, and it makes me sick as a law enforcement officer to think that anyone would have to do
that.
We have progressive use of force, we have nightsticks, PR-24, we have strikes and holds that we can deal with people that are not compliant, but
none of those were used in this case.
And I can tell you that we are taught -- I`ve always been taught that there are 100 different ways we can get somebody down to the ground, get
them handcuffed and get them in custody without incident. But I have never been taught to grab someone around the neck and hold them until they pass
out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:53]GARNER: Do not touch me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A father of six was dead. The New York City medical examiner`s office ruled Garner`s death a homicide by way of a
chokehold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the alleged chokehold to be prosecuted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You feel dead when you`re in jail because time stands still.
PROTESTERS: I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for spending time with me.
I want to go to Candace Trunzo. We are talking about the death of Eric Garner and the fact that there is now a federal investigation ongoing
into his death after a New York grand jury failed to indict the officers and the EMTs involved in the arrest and his death.
Candace, can you please tell me what the widow of Eric Garner and just hundreds of others were protesting just this past Saturday?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): I think that, mostly, Sunny, they`re protesting the fact that no officers, particularly Officer
Pantaleo, was indicted by the grand jury.
And they want a federal -- they want a federal indictment of Pantaleo. So whatever settlement they got in terms of money, which was $5.9 million,
was not enough. They want justice. They want to see justice done besides the money settlement.
HOSTIN: Now, we have learned that a settlement was reached by Eric Garner`s family and the City of New York. It`s reported about $5.9
million.
Candace, can you tell us what the settlement acknowledges, and quite frankly, what it doesn`t acknowledge?
TRUNZO: Sure. The settlement acknowledges the tragic nature of Eric Garner`s death. Everyone, I think, believed that, you know, it`s really
very sad that he had to die in such a situation. But what it does not acknowledge is liability for the death. And that, of course, goes hand in
hand with the fact that the grand jury did not indict Officer Pantaleo, who is the one who was, you know, charged with the chokehold of Eric Garner.
HOSTIN: Thank you, Candace.
You know what I`m also learning just now is that there was a confidential settlement reached with the hospital involved here. Now,
remember, several EMTs did arrive on the scene when Eric Garner was on the ground. He said 11 times, "I can`t breathe."
Our understanding is that there was a confidential settlement reached. Two EMTs remain active. Two EMTs are not currently responding to calls.
And one trainee was on the scene, that trainee is no longer with the hospital.
But what we have learned is that the EMTs, when they arrived, no oxygen was administered, no oxygen present, and the stretcher was brought
out rather late.
So I want to bring in Dr. William Morrone. He`s a forensic pathologist and a medical examiner, a toxicologist. And Mr. Garner, Dr.
Morrone, said, "I can`t breathe," again, 11 times, and the EMTs did not provide oxygen.
Do you think Mr. Garner was able to breathe? Do you think that he was in pain?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: When we look at that, you have to look at exactly what he said. He did not say, I`m in pain, he said, "I
can`t breathe." Now, with that comes anxiety and fear. There`s a tremendous amount of psychosocial suffering, and that could escalate his
chronic diseases.
But the medical response, which is what we`re going to focus on here, was definitely lacking. There was a terrible escalation of activity. And
I`m not a law enforcement expert. I`m not going to comment on that. But when somebody says, "I can`t breathe," they need positioning and they need
oxygen.
[20:20:00]And the medical examiner`s report, in its primary cause, talks about prone positioning and compression of the neck. If you`re going
to revive him, he needs positioning to reverse the prone and to give him oxygen, and if he`s unconscious, to intubate him.
These things may have averted this fatal tragedy and this painful event.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened that day (INAUDIBLE) I just -- it`s overwhelming.
GARNER: I can`t breathe. I can`t breathe! I can`t breathe!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Garner`s death gave new momentum to a national debate over policing in communities of color, and it triggered an overhaul
in the way New York cops are trained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York City officials announced a $5.9 million settlement with the Garner family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a victory. The victory will come when we get justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:00]HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin, in for Nancy Grace tonight. We`ve been discussing the tragic death of Eric Garner while in police
custody. And it`s the one-year anniversary of his death. That occurred on July 17th, 2014.
And I want to bring in Terry Lyles, Ph.D., a psychologist and a stress and crisis management coach. Terry, thank you so much for joining me
today. But I really want to talk about what kind of emotions the Garner family must be going through. We`re talking about a large settlement that
has been reached, but no criminal charges after -- one year after his death.
TERRY LYLES, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, I think part of the issue is that compounded effect that, you know, emotions linger, and a year
anniversary of any kind of loss is really significant. And grief is a process, and it cascades over periods of time, and with scenarios, as you
kind of go through that process.
But since there`s no real closure to this and there`s so much still outstanding, the grieving process continues. So without that type of
closure, it just allows it to continue to fester and grow and cause heartache and pain.
So the money is part of that settlement, but it doesn`t help the emotional side of, How do we get closure to this and move on with our
lives, to feel like there`s been some justice that could have had been (sic) done based upon what has happened now that we are understanding all
this new information.
HOSTIN: And I will tell you, Terry, I met Eric Garner`s mother. I met his wife. I met his daughter. And something that they mentioned to me
is that seeing the video over and over and over again was very, very traumatic for them. And I think we need to mention that because we are
showing the video from "The New York Daily News," but let`s face it, we are seeing someone`s death in front of our very eyes.
Would you recommend that the Garner family just stay away from seeing that video? I know I myself have tried to stop watching it.
LYLES: Well, I think it comes back to any kind of tragedy. I mean, we saw this at the -- you know, 9/11. We`ve seen this with hurricane loss
and tsunami and deaths like this. And any time you have overexposure to something, it`s going to cause prolonged grieving and pain to be issued
(ph).
So what I would say to the family and those that know Mr. Garner and are still trying to get their mind around that grieving, is you need to
isolate yourself to that and not watch it so often, but not isolate yourself from it.
In other words, stay in contact with what`s happening, you know, read stories, follow up, but ongoing communication about it is one thing, but
seeing it visually and reliving it over and over and over again is traumatic that`s ongoing. And that`s really what post-traumatic stress
disorder really stems from is an ongoing traumatic event that really doesn`t have closure.
HOSTIN: Well, what do you say to those people -- and many people have said to me they got $5.9 million. Let it go. Why are you still calling
for federal prosecutors to, you know, bring federal charges? Why can`t you just let this go? A settlement`s been reached.
LYLES: Well, I think a settlement financially is one aspect of it, but there`s still the emotional and the psychological aspect. I tend to
believe that, you know, there`s a bigger emotional side here because, you know, people win the lotto and they`re broke 12 and 18 months later. You
know, so money is not always the answer. It helps and it`s a gesture, but when you`re trying to find solace in the fact of a loss of a loved one,
that makes something more difficult.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:00]
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin in tonight for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for spending time with me. A 28-year-old African-American woman is
found dead in a Texas jail cell after what appeared to be a routine traffic stop. Tonight as new surveillance video is being released, we`re going to
take a closer look at the mysterious death of Sandra Bland.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pulled over for a traffic stop.
She was allegedly combative, got arrested and booked into the Waller County jail. She was found dead in her jail cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death of Sandra Bland will not be swept under the rug, and the truth will come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: This is a case that first came to my attention on Twitter. I got many, many people tweeting me about this and asking about the mystery
of it all. Because it does seem quite odd that a woman would go from a traffic stop to dead in a jail cell by suicide.
I want to bring in Matt Zarrell, he`s a Nancy Grace producer. Matt, please take us through this mystery. Why was Sandra Bland arrested by a
Waller County officer in the first place?
MATT ZARRELL, PRODUCER: So what the police say is, that the police say she had illegally changed lanes, didn`t properly signal, and the
officer pulled her over. According to the family`s attorney, the officer was going to give her a written warning. And when he asked her to put her
cigarette out, she became combative with him. The officer asked her to step out of the car, and that is when the officer claims that she assaulted
him, and you see here this video of the officer taking her into custody. She claims that he puts his knee on her back, and maybe breaks her arm, at
least that`s what Sandra Bland claims. They take her to the jail, three days later, she`s found dead in her jail cell with a plastic garbage bag.
[20:35:00]
HOSTIN: Now, this is video of Sandra Bland`s arrest from Youtube taken apparently by a cell phone by an onlooker. It doesn`t at this point
show Sandra Bland was being combative at all. Let`s go to Nik Rajkovic, we have him on the phone. He`s a news reporter for KTRH Radio. Nik, can you
give us a time line of events the morning that Sandra died in police custody?
NIK RAJKOVIC, KTRH RADIO: Good evening, Sunny, and thanks for having me. Ms. Bland was checked on by a jailer around 7:00 the morning that she
died. She called the supervisor on the intercom around 8:00 to ask for help, placing a call from her cell. About an hour later, the jailer was
sent to ask if she would like some recreation time, and she was found hanging by that plastic bag.
HOSTIN: Tell us about the plastic bag. Where did the plastic bag come from?
RAJKOVIC: The Waller County sheriff was on a local television station, exclusive interview with them, talking about how the Department of
Criminal Justice here in Texas had required that these -- the garbage cans had liners in them. That`s where it was. It was just a garbage can in the
jail cell with a plastic liner. That`s where she got it from.
HOSTIN: Matt Zarrell, to you, she then is alleged to have committed suicide by hanging herself from a plastic bag liner. But I`m also reading
that her feet were still on the ground. Can you confirm that?
ZARRELL: Yes. The sheriff`s office said she was found in her cell, semistanding position with her feet touching the ground. And the ligature
still around her neck.
HOSTIN: And Matt, I have in front of me somewhat of a time line. It says that July 10th, Bland is arrested, July 13th at 6:30 in the morning,
she refuses a breakfast tray. Same day, at 7:17 a guard checks on her, she says I`m fine, I`m fine. At 7:55 a.m., she asked to make a phone call from
her cell. And then by 9:00 a.m., she never makes that phone call, but by 9:00 am., she is found dead in her cell. There`s video. Right?
ZARRELL: Yes, there is. We do have video now. I should note the camera the police said the camera is motion detected. So if no one is
walking by, the camera isn`t recording. So for this three hour period, there`s about 9 minutes 30 seconds of where people are moving around, you
can see where you`re talking about, that at 6:35, the male officer goes to the cell to give Bland her breakfast. She refuses it. At 6:51 there`s a
security check in her cell. At 7:17 the officer stops by. Bland tells the officer, I`m fine. I should note, you can`t see Bland, you can only see
the hallway going toward her cell. Then there`s a gap, Sunny, a gap of about 90 minutes where there was no movement by any jail officials in the
hallway, leading to Bland`s cell. And then at 9:07 a.m. on the tape, which is actually 8:55 a.m. realtime, a female officer walks over to the cell,
bends down to make contact, and sees her body and then runs back to the booking floor, and a frenzy of activity starts after that.
HOSTIN: She`s the only one in that cell, is that correct?
ZARRELL: Yes, that`s correct.
HOSTIN: And no one is -- and there`s no video camera in her cell?
ZARRELL: No, they`re not, in fact, one thing that has been an issue here, is the FBI is involved, they`re looking at the hard drives to
determine if there`s been any manipulation on these security cameras.
HOSTIN: Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Nik. I have Elton Mathis, the Waller County district attorney with us on the phone. D.A. Mathis, thank
you so much for joining me. Can you please give us the latest? At least what you can tell us about the investigation into Sandra Bland`s death?
ELTON MATHIS, WALLER COUNTY DA: The investigation is continuing to be conducted by the Texas Rangers. I received confirmation again today that
the FBI is analyzing the videos, not only from the jail but from the trooper`s dashcam. I`m expecting the Texas Department of Public Safety to
release the traffic stop video at any moment for the media. That continues.
The other thing that`s a valuable piece of evidence in this case, is Ms. Bland`s cell phone. Once you`re all able to see the traffic stop, you
can see that it appears that she`s recording the stop, which will also -- if that`s the case, if we`re able to get that information, we`ll be able to
see what transpires between she and the trooper in her car. The dashcam video is the trooper`s car directly behind her, and all you can see is
looking straight at the car while she`s sitting in it.
[20:40:00]
There is a little bit of -- you know, we don`t know what`s going on between the trooper and Ms. Bland.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being treated just as it would be, a murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me understand how her failure to signal a lane change caused her to be out of her vehicle, on the ground, in jail,
over the weekend, and now no longer with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin in for Nancy Grace tonight. And we are talking about the mysterious death of Sandra Bland in Texas, in a Texas
jail cell.
[20:45:00]
I have with me Elton Mathis, he`s the Waller County district attorney. D.A. Mathis, again, thank you so much for staying with me. This, her death
has been ruled a suicide. It is alleged that she hung herself. The medical examiner ruled it a suicide. She hung herself with a trash bag
from the liner of a trash can. But you have indicated that you are treating this case as thoroughly as if it were a murder case. What do you
mean by that?
MATHIS: Well, that`s standard office policy. It`s standard policy for the Texas Rangers, actually. Whenever we have an in-custody death that
appears to be a suicide, we don`t just take that at face value. We go ahead and we do an investigation. We gather evidence just as if it was a
murder scene. And so in that respect, that information that went out yesterday, I want to clarify that. At this point I`m not sitting here
saying that I do believe this was a murder. I`m saying we`re treating it with the respect that it deserves, and we`re treating it as if it was a
murder in regard to the investigation and the evidence, the type of evidence that we`re collecting and we`re having analyzed.
HOSTIN: D.A. Mathis, I`m a former prosecutor myself. What I found interesting when I was doing some research on this case, is that another
inmate in this very county jail allegedly committed suicide in 2012. And that suicide in county jails actually, they`re about 38 per 100,000
inmates, and that`s about three times greater than the general population. How do you explain that?
MATHIS: I do recall that suicide. I was the district attorney when that happened. And that`s another reason -- not only that suicide, but
what I do want to say -- I do understand the fears, and I do personally -- I see the suspension that`s being raised by a lot of people across the
country and the world. It is ironic that you have this young woman, this vibrant young woman that was very much invested in the black lives matter
movement, very much fighter against police brutality, ends up in a small jail, in a small southern county in Texas. And three days later she passes
away. I understand the irony of that. I understand why people would be suspicious. And those are other reasons why we are taking a very close
look at this death.
I want to reiterate that at this point, the medical examiner has determined it`s a suicide. I`m not saying I believe it was anything but a
suicide. But we`re treating it very sensitively, gathering evidence to ensure that the right determination can be made by the Waller County grand
jury when it goes to that fact finding body.
HOSTIN: I was going to ask you that, because you mentioned black lives matter, and I have been covering so many of these deaths in police
custody. And one of the criticisms that always comes up is that rather than just indict or charge, rather, district attorneys from across the
country want to bring it in front of a grand jury. Do you intend to bring it in front of a grand jury yourself or perhaps appoint a special
prosecutor?
MATHIS: No, well, if it`s determined that somebody caused her death besides herself, then of course it would have to go to the grand jury, and
in Texas we have a grand jury system for felonies. Any kind of homicide in Texas like that would be a felony. And I don`t have a choice. It would
have to result in an indictment in order to proceed to the district court system.
HOSTIN: Will this case go to a grand jury?
MATHIS: The case, it`s my office policy, always before this has been, that any suspicious death, whether we believe that they`re suicide or not,
always see the light of day in the grand jury process, at least in my county. So, yes, this case will go to grand jury, even if we believe, even
if we as a prosecuting agency ultimately believe it was a suicide, it will go to grand jury, and the grand jury will then have the option of taking
any further steps they deem appropriate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin in for Nancy Grace tonight. Caitlyn Jenner is facing a civil lawsuit in a deadly chain reaction crash on the Pacific
Coast highway, but tonight is Jenner set to walk on felony charges?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pictures of the four-car chain reaction crash on PCH in Malibu shows the front end of the white Lexus smashed in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One person is dead and seven are hospitalized. Police say Olympic athlete and TV star Bruce Jenner was driving the third
car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I have with me tonight Alan Duke, he is the editor in chief of leadstories.com, and he`s going to catch us all up on what is going on.
Alan, thank you so much for joining us, and can you give us the latest on what we are hearing about the possible charges against Jenner stemming from
this car crash?
ALAN DUKE, LEADSTORIES.COM: It`s a decision that will have to be made by the Los Angeles County district attorney. Whether it`s a felony, a
misdemeanor or not criminal at all. And what we`re hearing is that it would not be a felony. It seems the investigators found no evidence he was
-- she was texting or that Caitlyn Jenner, then Bruce Jenner, was under the influence of any substances, alcohol or drugs. And that it was just one of
those accidents, one of those accidents caused by inattentiveness, perhaps negligent but certainly not a felony. And then the decision would be --
have to be made would it be prosecuted as a misdemeanor.
HOSTIN: Where does the investigation into the crash stand at this point? Is it over and done with and have they handed it over to the
prosecutor`s office?
DUKE: Yes. It`s the Los Angeles County district attorney`s office.
[20:55:00]
It was the sheriff`s department who first started immediately checking into it. And they eventually spent months and months on this, which is unusual
for a case like this. Finally turning it over. Of course, more investigation could be done, but it seems they know pretty much everything
that they`re going to know.
HOSTIN: Alan, we`re looking at the video of the deadly crash from TMZ. What does the video of the crash reveal about Caitlyn Jenner`s
responsibility in this accident?
DUKE: Well, it`s very obvious that Jenner`s car, Cadillac Escalade, that was pulling this trailer that had something of a dune buggy on the
back of it crashed into the back of the Lexus and then into the back of the Prius, causing the Lexus to go into oncoming traffic, hitting head on into
a much larger SUV and causing the death of 69-year-old Kim Howell.
HOSTIN: If she is charged with a misdemeanor, how much jail time is Jenner potentially looking at?
DUKE: You know, I`ve been in L.A. courts quite a bit in the last several years. I`ve never seen anybody get jail time for something like
this as a misdemeanor. First of all, the Los Angeles County jails are so overcrowded that once you check in, we`ve seen this with Lindsay Lohan a
bunch of times, they immediately get released. There could be a suspended sentence, probation or whatever. But I really doubt if Caitlyn Jenner will
ever see the inside of an actual county jail.
HOSTIN: I completely agree with you. These types of cases are either pled out or no charges are brought at all. But Jenner has also been hit
with two civil lawsuits. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
DUKE: Well, I suppose it`s the insurance company that is really dealing with this right now for Jenner, although he has a very fine
attorney in Blair Burke (ph) working for him. There`s a half million dollar insurance policy that is there to be used, and I understand the
family -- the stepchildren of Kim Howell, who sued in a wrongful death suit against Jenner, don`t think that`s enough. They want more than $500,000.
And in that case would have to come out of Jenner`s pocket if there`s some sort of a settlement. And then there is of course the personal injury that
was filed by the talent manager, Jessica Steindorf (ph), who was in the Prius that was hit. She was sent to the hospital.
HOSTIN: Now, my understanding is that survivor Jessica Steindorf responded to Caitlyn Jenner`s receiving the Espy Courage award just
recently. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
DUKE: It was really interesting. This woman works in Hollywood. She`s a talent manager. So she got a guest invitation to go to the Espy
awards. She was sitting there in the audience when it was awarded. She later gave a statement that said she didn`t think that a person who killed
somebody and hadn`t taken responsibility for it should be honored as a hero. So she objected to that.
HOSTIN: Well, thank you so much, Alan. I want to go quickly to Terry Lyles. One of the things that many folks have discussed about this crash
is that Caitlyn Jenner didn`t seem to be distracted in the sense that she was not on her phone, not texting, not under the influence of any drugs or
alcohol. But many are questioning whether or not the gender transition that Jenner was going through at the time may have played a role in the
crash.
LYLES: Well, it could have. I mean, the transition itself from the Espy awards capsulating that from time past since the accident prior to
that, I`m sure that was a lot to deal with. Even her own standpoint of describing that from stage has been a massive distraction for most of the
life cycle. But we don`t really know what happened. We still don`t know what was going through their mind at the time.
HOSTIN: Thank you so much to all my guests. But tonight, we stop to remember American heroes, the five victims of the massacre in Chattanooga,
Tennessee. Marine Gunnery Sergeant Thomas Sullivan, 40 years old from Massachusetts, a two-time Purple Heart recipient. He served three tours of
duty. And then Marine Staff Sergeant David Wyatt, 35 years old from Arkansas. Served three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Marine Sergeant
Carson Holmquist, 26 years old from Wisconsin. Served two tours in Afghanistan. Marine Lance Corporal Squire "Skip" Wells, 21 years old, from
Georgia. He earned a National Defense Service Medal. And Navy Petty Officer Randall Smith, 24 years old, from Ohio. He was a logistics
specialist and a standout baseball player. And we honor all of them tonight. American heroes. Dr. Drew is coming up next.
END
