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Nancy Grace
Federal Indictment for Charleston Church Shooter; Surrogate Wants Baby Back From Gay Couple; Woman`s Mysterious Death in Jail; Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 23, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SUNNY HOSTIN, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. The nation watched in horror as tragedy unfolded at a historic African-American church in
Charleston, South Carolina. A quiet Bible study at Emanuel AME Methodist church, Mother Emanuel, ends in the mass shootings of nine people.
Authorities say this man, 21-year-old Dylann Roof, murdered nine innocent people, gunning them down one by one, all to fulfill his sick dream of
starting a race war. Well, tonight, Dylann Roof indicted on federal hate crime charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A federal grand jury`s indictment charges this man, Dylann Roof...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your age?
DYLANN ROOF, INDICTED FOR MURDER: Twenty-one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re 21 years of age. Are you employed?
ROOF: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... with 33 crimes, including federal hate crime and weapons charges...
LORETTA LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: This is exactly the type of case that the federal hate crimes statutes...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: A custody battle leaves a U.S. couple trapped in Thailand. They say they can`t go back to the U.S. because the surrogate who gave birth to
their baby girl now says she wants the baby back. The couple is hiding out in fear any moment, baby Carmen will be taken away from them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gordon Dan Lake and his partner went to Thailand, where a surrogate gave birth to their daughter. Lake says he is the biological
father of the child and that an anonymous donor provided the egg. Shortly after the baby was born, the surrogate said she wants the baby back!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: And the mysterious death of 28-year-old Sandra Bland, found dead in a Texas jail cell after a controversial arrest. Major new developments
tonight. Jail booking documents appear to show Bland attempted suicide last year. And we take a look at Bland`s preliminary autopsy results and
hear her voicemail from inside the jail.
Good evening. I`m Sunny Hostin in for Nancy Grace. And thank you so very much for spending time with me tonight.
Accused Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof -- well, he`s been indicted on federal hate crime charges. Roof allegedly took the life of 9 innocent
victims at a Bible study.
Let`s go straight out to Dan O`Donnell. He`s an anchor and reporter for News Talk 1130. Dan, tell us about this new federal grand jury indictment.
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN (via telephone): Well, Attorney General Loretta Lynch, saying that this was exactly the sort of crime that hate crimes legislation
at the federal level was designed to combat, did announce this indictment, saying that there was clear motivation of racial animus by Dylann Roof`s
own words and his own writings, saying that he wanted to start a race war by his actions in that church, killing nine church goers, including the
parishioner (ph), in a crime that truly shocked the conscience of the nation last month.
HOSTIN: But Dan, we know that the state of Charleston, South Carolina, has already indicted Dylann Roof. Why the federal charges?
O`DONNELL: This is a statement. This is a statement that this sort of race-based hatred and race-based violence will not be tolerated in the
United States of America.
Yes, you`re absolutely right. In fact, Dylann Roof faces the potential for the death penalty if convicted on the state charges against him. The
federal charges are in addition to this. And I believe the attorney general, the United States government, sending a message that this sort of
hate just will not be accepted.
HOSTIN: Now, this is what`s interesting to me. Both cases, the attorney general says, will proceed through the court system, but we know that the
state trial date has been set, right, for July 11th, 2016.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HOSTIN: So who goes first, the state or the feds?
O`DONNELL: Generally, the state will go first.
HOSTIN: And that`s my understanding. But we also know that the state in, of course, South Carolina, does have the death penalty. Will this be a
death penalty case for the feds?
O`DONNELL: Will this be a death penalty case for the feds? I don`t believe that this will be.
HOSTIN: Why is that?
O`DONNELL: I believe that they are going to allow the state case to proceed and determine whether or not Dylann Roof is sentenced to death in
state court.
HOSTIN: Thanks, Dan.
Let`s go right out to Stacey Newman, Nancy Grace`s producer, because -- you know, I`m curious as to the rumors that Roof`s cousin said that the reason
he became so hate-filled against African-Americans was all over a girl?
[20:05:00]STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, there were reports -- CNN has not confirmed these, but there were reports that at one point
Dylann Roof was dating a girl and she left him, Sunny, and started dating an African-American man.
His relative says this is what sparked his hatred and inflamed these racial tensions that he had, and now it brought him to the point of wanting this
race war and ending the lives of nine innocent people.
HOSTIN: Well, Stacey, you know, what`s also interesting is that the indictment, as I read it -- 33 federal charges. I have them in front of
me. The indictment, though, appears not to just be about race, but religion is also included. Tell me a bit about that.
NEWMAN: Well, yes, Sunny. Remember, when this went down, there actually was video showing Dylann Roof. He walked into a Bible study class and sat
through the class before he opened fire. So part of this federal indictment said he interfered with the religious freedom of these people
that were at this Bible study at the church. And here`s the video we`re seeing right now.
HOSTIN: Well, this is such a tragedy. I was actually in Charleston, South Carolina, covering this tragedy. I was in this church. I was downstairs,
and at the church, I saw exactly where Dylann Roof stood. There were still holes from the bullets. And it`s a small space. He must have had to chase
each victim down in order to shoot them. Such a tragedy. And it seems to have, Stacey, come out of almost nowhere.
My other question is, how could his friends not know? I have in front of me a statement that Joey Meek (ph), one of his friends, gave to CNN, and he
said a drunken Dylann Roof went off one night about an unspecified six- month plan to do something crazy in order to start a race war.
It freaked Meek out so much that he went out, took Dylann`s gun, hid it, but then he put it back the next day.
NEWMAN: Well, yes. I mean, there`s all kinds of signs when tragedies like this happen after the fact. How did nobody know? The family didn`t know.
He had this manifesto that clearly had example after example, Sunny, of his racial hatred. And even with this gun, it really didn`t matter the friend
took the gun or put it back because he went out and purchased this Glock just months before this shooting and had this plan in place for months.
HOSTIN: Well, let me bring in Reverend George McKain. He is a friend of the victims, national director of public affairs at AME Zion church, a
former local Charleston pastor.
Reverend, thank you so much for joining me.
REV. GEORGE MCKAIN, FRIEND OF SHOOTING VICTIMS (via telephone): Well, it`s a delight to be with you (INAUDIBLE)
HOSTIN: Thank you so much. And you know, what do you think about the new hate crime charges being brought by the federal grand jury? Because as we
know, South Carolina is one of the few states that doesn`t have a hate crime statute.
MCKAIN: Well, the charges I won`t say are unfounded. I understand what it says. I understand what you mean was (INAUDIBLE) represented to us about
interfering with the religious freedom and that stuff about hate.
But it`s -- hate is such a wide (ph) word. I mean, it covers a lot. I don`t think the law (ph) could ever really control what really defines hate
crime, I mean, because it really depends on the side of the fence you`re own, what side of town you come from, what your mindset is, what you`re
open to, what you`re closed down from, what you`ve experienced.
And so -- and in this kid`s case, I mean, it`s definitely everything that we have received that definition for what a hate crime is, but it is so
much more to it, you know? And it`s really hard to lock yourself into one tunnel vision thought of a hate crime and the charges.
I think, you know, if this is what we can call it, we call it.
HOSTIN: Well...
MCKAIN: But I still don`t think it really addresses the fullness of the issue.
HOSTIN: One thing, Reverend, that struck me when I was in Charleston covering this story and in the church. I was in the church when the
president gave the eulogy for Senator and Pastor Pinckney -- the forgiveness that I heard from the people of Charleston. It is unlike
anything I have ever heard of.
Do you think there will be justice for your friends who were killed in this tragic shooting, or has the family really just already found justice in the
forgiveness?
MCKAIN: I think you hit the key right there. In my first interview, the day after it happened, I told the reporters (INAUDIBLE) that the response
in Charleston was going to be different than anywhere else.
[20:10:02]I`m a native of New Jersey, but when I came to Charleston, I was taught emphatically that this was the holy city and things happen
differently here. We thought differently here.
And from what Mayor Riley said from that opening moment that night, from the way the police -- North Charleston, Charleston police banded together
and went to visit all churches, large churches, small churches in the Bible belt there -- everybody would be in Bible study or mid-week service.
(INAUDIBLE) just shut them down, telling them what had happened, trying to get everybody home safely.
It was a phenomenal experience from the first moment with the hurt, the fear, everything, they started coming together. And prayer was what they
knew would make the connection to help each person begin to heal.
And you`re right, across the nation, the Charleston response to these nine people being killed have made a major impact and difference for how we
ought to respond when tragedy -- when, you know, pain comes, you don`t have to respond the way we`ve been doing, where (ph) it hurts you or hurts
somebody else, resulting from somebody being hurt. You know what I`m saying?
HOSTIN: Yes, I do.
MCKAIN: The forgiveness factor, the people in the court (INAUDIBLE) justice being done. To some degree, I believe the families and the city
and the members of the AME church, the members of Mother Emanuel in particular, have already experienced justice at level one.
HOSTIN: Now, let me ask you this. You`re a friend of the victims in this case, and the Justice Department hasn`t indicated that it will be seeking
the death penalty, but that the Justice Department will speak to the families and take into consideration what the families want in terms of
seeking the death penalty.
What do you think the victims and the family -- families of those victims feel about the death penalty?
MCKAIN: For anybody who`s been watching from day one, what the families have said and still say is that they pray for his forgiveness, as well as
that God will have mercy on his soul.
I don`t think one of those families -- they can interview them until eternity rolls (ph) over (ph) -- will change their mind and heart set (ph)
that forgiveness is what he needs.
That kid`s mind and spirit is in trouble. Somebody needs to help him. Somebody needs to counsel (INAUDIBLE) help him to understand what he did.
And I think that even in interviewing them, none of them are going to be satisfied saying that the death penalty is the right thing or it`s going to
bring any (INAUDIBLE) to what they feel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:18]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say the 21-year-old targeted the Charleston church and its parishioners.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The parishioners had bibles. Dylann Roof had his .45-caliber Glock pistol...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After nearly an hour attending a Bible study, police say Roof admitted to opening fire, killing nine people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: Welcome back. I`m Sunny Hostin, in for Nancy Grace tonight.
And we`re talking about the fact that Dylann Roof, suspected shooter in the AME church massacre, killing nine people, has been indicted on federal hate
crime charges, 33 of them.
Let`s bring in the lawyers, Jeff Gold, a defense attorney, Randy Kessler, also a defense attorney.
Where do we begin? Jeff, let me start with you. How do you defend Dylann Roof in this case? He has confessed to these crimes already. Is this an
insanity case?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, yes, it`s going to be an insanity case. Let me just say one thing about the federal charges. You know,
what you felt in your heart, Sunny, is exactly right about the people of Charleston and South Carolina. I think the federal indictment jumping the
gun now -- it`s very unusual for them to do it in the beginning, it`s usually something they fall back on when the state fails to do what the
right thing is.
If anybody thinks that the people of South Carolina are going to convict this guy of murder after he`s admitted and probably put him to death,
they`re wrong. I think it`s a slap in the face to South Carolina that they felt they had to do this now, as if everybody in South Carolina, you know,
was the KKK and they needed the federal government to come in. Let South Carolina deal with the murders in their own state.
Yes, I would defend it with insanity because I think the kid is crazy.
HOSTIN: Well, you know, I don`t know. After my time as a federal prosecutor, I know people want to make sense of these kinds of crimes, and
mental illness sometimes makes sense of it for them. But I can tell you that I`ve met people, Jeff, that are just evil people. There are some
people that are just evil people.
And Randy, what do you say to what Jeff is bringing up? Why do the feds get involved? I think they got involved to make the statement nationally
that hate will not be tolerated. What do you think about that?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that`s exactly true. I think it`s political statement, but it also may be to help the prosecutors
because now if the prosecutors cut a deal with anything short of death, there`s still a federal prosecution that can go forward.
You know, you said, How do we defend this? I think we defend it by a practical solution, saying, Do you want to spend all this money, if you`re
the state, trying for a death penalty conviction when I can offer you life guaranteed? That`s pretty much the best defense Bill Clinton otherwise,
insanity is only thing left on the table.
HOSTIN: Jeff, do we hear from Dylann Roof? Does he testify?
GOLD: Probably not. And the only thing about life or death, the only way that this would be not a death penalty case is if really every single
victim`s family comes forward and says, We don`t want it. It is actually possible in this case...
KESSLER: Right.
GOLD: ... given, you know, the way they have expressed themselves so far. But other than that, the people of South Carolina are going to convict this
fellow and give him death unless the victims don`t want it.
HOSTIN: Randy, what do you think? Do we hear from Dylann Roof?
KESSLER: You know, this may be a Hail Mary pass where he`s got no other option. I think he loses if he goes to trial, and his lawyers have to do
everything they can to convince the prosecution that the cost, the effort, the emotional pain to make everybody go through this again is not worth it.
Put him away for life. Let him think about what he did for the rest of his life. And that would be a good defense and good job by the defense counsel
if they can get that result.
HOSTIN: Well, we talked so much about forgiveness here. What do you think? Do you think the families in this case will advise the Department
of Justice and even the state of South Carolina that they do not want to see Dylann Roof put to death?
[20:20:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds like that`s what they`re saying. It sounds like they`re going to say that. But you know, feds trying to get
their back, so to speak. And really, the feds don`t want this to happen elsewhere.
And I think the federal government is not going to be chastised for doing this because the goal is not so much to punish this guy but to make sure
anybody that`s even thinking about doing this knows that there`s a double whammy. There`s state charges and federal charges. Don`t do this kind of
stuff.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOSTIN: Good evening. I`m Sunny Hostin, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Thank so much for taking the time to spend with me.
A heart-breaking custody battle over a baby girl named Carmen. The surrogate who gave birth to the baby girl now says, I want the baby back,
leaving a U.S. couple trapped in Thailand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A huge smile from baby Carmen, the 6-month-old unwittingly at the center of a legal dispute. American Bud Lake is
Carmen`s biological father, but he can`t leave Thailand with her. Under the law, he needs the approval of the surrogate mother who gave birth to
her using an egg donor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:00]HOSTIN: As a mother myself, this story is heart-breaking to me.
Let`s go straight out to Chris Spargo. He`s a reporter with the DailyMail. Chris, why is this couple unable to leave Thailand with their beautiful
baby girl, Carmen?
CHRIS SPARGO, DAILYMAIL.COM: So Bud Lake and his husband decided to go to Thailand because they have a good surrogacy record. They have good
facilities. The surrogate mother has the baby. It is Bud`s semen that was used and another woman`s egg.
But then because in Thailand, the woman has all control, she suddenly at the last second, after giving the baby to the couple and with the only
thing left to do to sign the passport papers, says she`s not going to give them the child because they`re not an ordinary family, that she wants a
heterosexual couple to have the child.
HOSTIN: Now, this is unbelievable to me because I was reading that she said she thought she was doing this for an ordinary family, and when she
found out that it wasn`t an ordinary family, she was worried somehow for Carmen`s wellbeing? Well, where is Carmen now?
SPARGO: So they actually had to go into hiding somewhere in Bangkok because they`re so afraid they`re going to lose their child because they`re
looking for her. So they don`t want anyone to know. Bud even says that when he goes to work, he takes long routes home so no one can maybe be
following him until they can find a way to get the baby out.
HOSTIN: Well, is this surrogate biologically connected to this child in any way?
SPARGO: No way whatsoever. It is not her egg that was used, so she has absolutely no biological claim. But because of the laws and the fact that
she carried the child, in Thailand, she has 100 percent control over the baby.
HOSTIN: So let me get this straight. So in Thailand, even though she is not the biological mother, she has legal rights to the baby over the rights
-- her rights trump the rights of the biological father, who is Bud Lake in this case?
SPARGO: Yes. And not even that. She has all the rights. He has absolutely zero rights next to hers.
HOSTIN: But they went through an agency, didn`t they?
SPARGO: They did go through an agency, but unfortunately, that agency has now been disbanded as Thailand is moving away from making surrogacy legal.
In February, they just made it illegal in the country. So they haven`t really been able to help them that much, although the agency did say that
this woman knew the entire time that this was a gay couple.
HOSTIN: Well, thank you so much, Chris, for getting us caught up on that.
I have the pleasure, though, of having Deb Lake with me. Her son, Bud Lake, can`t leave Thailand with his beautiful baby girl, Carmen, and this
is Deb Lake`s granddaughter. Deb, thank you so much for joining us me.
DEB LAKE, BABY CARMEN`S GRANDMOTHER (via telephone): Hi, Sunny.
HOSTIN: Deb, when you first found out that your son wasn`t allowed to bring your granddaughter back home, what went through your mind?
LAKE: Well, we were devastated. When she was born, we were so excited and had seen pictures and were so looking forward to having her home with us
that when we found out she couldn`t come home and why, it was just devastating.
And each day that goes by, it just brings a bigger fear and increases our worry and worry for our sons watching their stress and their worry in
trying to resolve this situation.
HOSTIN: I just can`t imagine it, Deb. I will tell you, when I had my children, I don`t even recognize my mother, the things that she does. She
gives my kids chocolate for breakfast. Grandparents have a special relationship with their grandchildren.
And how is your son holding up, since he can`t leave Thailand unless he chooses to leave the country without his baby?
LAKE: Right. Well, frankly, they`ve been doing a yeoman`s job of keeping it all together while waiting for this. I think the good thing is that,
you know, Carmen is with them, and being together with her and being able to bond with her and raise her, I think that`s what`s keeping them sane and
keeping them going.
Plus, they -- you know, they have another child who`s just about 2. And you know, he needs attention, too. So they are family, and they are
getting through it. And when you -- you really see what real strength and commitment is when you watch them handle the struggle together as a family.
HOSTIN: That`s right. They are a family.
LAKE: Yes.
HOSTIN: Well, let me ask you this. What are your thoughts on how the U.S. government is handling this? Because my understanding is that your son has
reached out to the government for some help.
LAKE: Well, I`m very, very disappointed in the lack of support and assistance from our State Department. We would like to see them -- we`ve
asked -- Bud has asked and made the application for -- first of all, for Carmen to have an American passport. They have the authority and ability
to do that. They don`t need approval from anyone in Thailand. And they have the appropriate documentation. But they`ve declined to do that.
[20:30:00] And my feeling is my granddaughter is an American citizen. And she should have a passport. And I think the government should issue her
one. I mean, it`s the first step.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SUNNY HOSTIN, HOST: New developments tonight in the mysterious death of 28-year-old Sandra Bland who was found dead in a Texas jail cell after a
very controversial arrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The haunting voicemail.
SANDRA BLAND, ARRESTED FOR TRAFFIC VIOLATION: I`m still just at a loss for words honestly about this whole process. How did switching lanes with no
signal turned into all this?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And the dash cam video of Bland`s arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.
BLAND: Failure to signal? You`re doing all of this for a failure to signal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: As the final moments of her life.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Investigators are now analyzing DNA evidence on the trash bag allegedly used in Sandra Bland`s hanging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:35:07] HOSTIN: Well, let`s go straight out to Matt Zarrell. He`s NANCY GRACE`s producer. And my understanding, Matt, is that the district
attorney had a press conference today and gave a lot of new information, information we haven`t heard before, about the results of the autopsy.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: OK. So, yes, let me take you through this, Sunny. So the medical examiner listed the cause of death as hanging,
the manner of death being suicide by hanging based on physical and pathological findings. There are no injuries consistent with foul play.
One thing they talked about is the mark around her neck. The mark around her neck is uniformed and consistent around her head. They explained that
had this been a violent struggle or murder, you would most likely not see a uniformed mark around the neck.
Doctors, Sunny, also confirmed findings of marijuana in Bland`s system but note that it is a presumptive test. They hope to have the full results
tomorrow to determine the quantity in her system. They also speculate that marijuana could have been ingested in the jail. They have not found any
evidence of that at this point but they cannot rule it out. They also talk about the hands of her that the hands are very important in determining if
it was suicide or foul play.
The only injury near Bland`s hands were lacerations or abrasions on the wrist that were consistent with being handcuffed. We`ve also learned about
cut marks on the left arm. There`s approximately 30 cuts on the left wrist in a state of healing. Both the state of scarring and scabbing that
indicates the cuts were placed on the body two to four weeks prior to being incarcerated. And there`s no significant pathological findings to organ or
body structure.
The reason that`s important, Sunny, is that in violent strangulations you would typically see neck structures damaged but that is not the case here.
And there`s being forensic testing that`s being done right now on the trash bag. We may get the results in the next couple of weeks.
HOSTIN: Is this unusual, that the DA would go so far as to release these autopsy pictures to the media?
ZARRELL: Well, what they`re doing is they want to be very, very transparent here. They`re saying that we want to make sure you`re aware of
what`s going on. That this is what we found. We`re continuing to investigate. There are dual investigations going on right now. They`re
trying to figure out whether the cop acted wrongly and what happened at the jail and, Sunny, why was she not watched more carefully.
HOSTIN: Well, let me go to Carmen Watkins, she`s the host of "Point of View" KGOZ Radio 880 AM.
Carmen, what do we know about the marijuana allegedly found in Bland`s system from that press conference today?
CARMEN WATKINS, HOST, "POINT OF VIEW" KGOZ RADIO 880 AM: Well, that`s the first that I have heard of the marijuana. We`d heard some things on the
street but as I said in one of the briefings. We talked about the newspaper that was not brought out -- brought to light at all. And so I`m
rather shocked by that.
The other thing I will say to you that Sandra Bland was in a closed cell. Meaning that you could only see the top or the very, very bottom of that
cell in closed view, so if they`re now saying that she got it while in jail, the question is, how? If no one had any real contact, even her trays
were slid through a sliding door. And so no one was to have any contact. So how would she get the marijuana in jail?
HOSTIN: And can you tell me, also, Carmen, a little bit about the cuts on Bland`s arm and what the medical examiner believes about those cuts?
WATKINS: Well, what I understand is that -- from the DA is that those cuts are consistent with a cutter. Someone who has been at some point slicing
their wrists and they were in what was said two to four weeks of healing. The family was unaware of that. We -- that was a first time I heard of
that. And we`ll have to say with -- figure out what that is.
Now we do know that when she was admitted there was a form that asked about prior suicides and she admitted that she had -- so they say, we don`t know
the timing of this, that she had attempted suicide with pills after the death of a child and much has been made of her mental state because of
that. But if anyone has ever lost a child or have been around someone who has, that is a catastrophic moment. Not a moment where you are given a
ticket and you respond like one.
HOSTIN: As a mother myself, I completely agree with you.
Let`s go to Dr. Tim Gallagher, he`s a forensic pathologist. He can guide us through some of the autopsy results that were just released.
How is it, Dr. Gallagher, that marijuana would still be found in her system three days after she had been arrested?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, thanks for having me on the show, Miss Hostin. That`s a very good question. Typically, the normal
toxicology results cannot detect marijuana going back that far.
[20:40:04] So my opinion is she must have received the marijuana while she was incarcerated.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAND: Good afternoon, my beautiful kings and queens. Spontaneous. Spunky. Outgoing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you done?
BLAND: You asked me what`s wrong and I told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
BLAND: So now I`m done, yes. Truly filled with life and joy. What are you doing out there to be productive today?
LAVANDERA: On this police intake questionnaire, Bland notes a previous suicide attempt by way of pills after a miscarriage in 2014.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Difficult for us to wrap our minds around Sandy that we knew for this to be characteristic of her.
BLAND: I`m still just at a loss for words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin in for Nancy Grace tonight. Thanks so much for joining me.
I have Dr. Tim Gallagher, MD, he`s a forensic pathologist, and we are and talking about the autopsy results that were just released today on the
death of Sandra bland.
[20:45:11] And Dr. Gallagher, we`re hearing that perhaps a large quantity of marijuana was found in her blood and also that there was marijuana found
in her system. We know she was arrested and had been in jail for three days. Is it possible that she would have somehow ingested the marijuana
during her arrest and still have that amount of -- or an amount of marijuana found in her system three days later?
GALLAGHER: Well, thanks for having me on the show, Miss Hostin. That is a good question. Normal toxicology tests cannot detect marijuana that`s been
in the system three days. Typically, it`s about 24 hours or less. So it would be my opinion that she received the marijuana during the time of her
incarceration.
HOSTIN: Well, we also know that cuts were found on her arms and an estimated 30 cuts. What would have indicated to authorities that the cuts
on her arms were only one to two weeks old which is what they`re claiming?
GALLAGHER: Right. Well, you have the look at the level of healing on the cuts. You`ll start to -- and after a week or so, after a couple of days or
so, you start to see scabs develop and you start to see scar tissue develop and with close inspection of these areas you`ll be able to estimate about
the time that these scars have or this injury happened.
HOSTIN: And, Dr. Gallagher, you know, the conclusion of the autopsy seems to be that Sandra must have killed herself by hanging using a garbage can
liner in her cell. Now we have learned that she was approximately six- foot-tall, six-foot-tall. And her feet were touching the ground when she was found. Can you hang yourself with that kind of liner as a 6-feet tall
person ending up with your feet touching the ground?
GALLAGHER: Absolutely. Your feet do not have to touch the ground for you to hang yourself with any type of object. You only need about 12 pounds of
pressure on the front of the neck to kill yourself using a hanger technique.
HOSTIN: Now --
GALLAGHER: So we`ve had cases where people were actually seated in a chair and just kind of leaned forward, you know, and committed the same act.
HOSTIN: Well, what could have happened to Bland if she was without her epilepsy medication for three days? Because she told the jail she was
taking Kepra.
GALLAGHER: That`s right. Kepra is an anti-seizure medication as given to people who have epilepsy or seizures. If she does not have the medication
in her system, she is highly prone to having a seizure or epileptic attack.
HOSTIN: Thank you, Doctor.
I want to go to Bethany Marshall, she`s a psychoanalyst and an author of the book "Dealbreakers."
Now, Bethany, her family is saying that they had no idea that she was suffering from depression, that she was looking forward to starting a new
job. However, we`re now hearing from this autopsy that there are signs of cutting and we are also hearing from another inmate who says that she was
very emotional. She often cried during her three days in jail and that she was stressed out about missing the first day of work at her new job.
Can you make sense of this for us?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I can make sense of this. You know, this whole situation is very suspicious to
me. 90 percent of people who successfully terminate their lives have some co-occurring psychiatric disorder or severe drug abuse problem so I`d
really want to look at her history and say, did she have some psychiatric issue like bipolar, major depressive disorder? Did she have a drug
problem?
I don`t see anything that suggests that. Just because she is a cutter, just because she may have said on some post, you know, on Facebook or
something that she had depression, that does not constitute a psychiatric disorder. Secondly, if I was jailed or incarcerated for three days and
didn`t know when I was getting out and because I didn`t signal for a lane change, I would be crying, too. And the fact that she was upset because
she was missing her first day of work speaks of hopefulness for the future.
So -- and in terms of the MD who said you can lean forward in your chair and kill yourself just through 12 pounds of weight, well, of course that`s
possible but that takes an incredible amount of will power.
HOSTIN: Thank you so much, Bethany. And now let`s go to tonight`s "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really believe most people want what`s best for their pets. Now do they have the resources? No.
[20:50:01] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just don`t want to lose her, like I got so attached.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many times people just feel they have to surrender their animal. When in reality if they understood all the resources, they
are happy to keep their animal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll make some phone calls to see if there`s anybody that would be willing to foster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I started an organization which offers resources to low income families so they can keep their pets. The areas we work tend to
have the higher crime rates, densely populated, and there`s lots of animals. There is a lot of people that are either not employed, they`re
underemployed, but that does not mean that people don`t love their animals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you interested in a free neuter for him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We offer free spay and neuter, vaccines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can handle this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dog food, medical services.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god. Oh here`s mommy. Come here, Reno.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our job is to find out who is this person? How can we best help them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s crazy because I`m a foster child. And then you`re fostering my dog.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are offering them as much as we can to be successful with their pets.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy who loves to play.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It gives me a lot of joy to see the dogs with their family.
He was so nervous about his dog dying. He thanked me like five times.
Everybody in life needs to find their purpose. And for me it was really helping people with their animals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:55:43] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands on your back and turn around.
BLAND: Why am I being arrested?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around.
BLAND: Why can`t you tell me why --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m giving you a lawful order. I will tell you.
BLAND: Why am I being arrested?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Newly released dashcam video shows why Bland wound up in this jail cell in Waller County, Texas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop now. Stop it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOSTIN: I`m Sunny Hostin in for Nancy Grace. And I want to go straight out to LaVaughn Moseley, he is a long-time friend of Sandra Bland and spoke
to her while she was being held in the county jail.
LaVaughn, what is your response now to these reports that Sandra was cutting her arm and was depressed?
LAVAUGHN MOSLEY, LONGTIME FRIEND OF SANDRA BLAND: Well, I think that`s pure fabrication. First of all when they process you through any type of
jail, unfortunately I`ve been arrested a few times. What they tell you and they ask you, do you have any scars or any tattoos? That`s part of the
processing on the jail. So the fact that this is coming out now and it didn`t come out as part of her initial processing, to me it seems like a
pure fabrication.
HOSTIN: Well, do you think then that Sandra could have committed suicide while in jail?
MOSLEY: I don`t think that. I don`t believe that. She had too much to live for. She had too much going for her. Like the psychoanalyst said,
just because she cut herself and just because she had that little outbreak or that little outreach on the video does not mean that she would kill
herself. You know, myself, I`m a licensed professional counselor and currently working at a behavioral clinic in Texas. We treat cutters.
They`re functioning and social. None of them want to take their lives. So to say that she did that and she took her life would still be ludicrous.
HOSTIN: Well, let me go to Reverend Dr. James Miller. He`s a senior pastor at DuPage AME Church. He knew Sandra Bland for 18 years.
Do you think, Reverend, that Sandra Bland was depressed and committed suicide while she was in jail?
REV. DR. JAMES MILLER, PASTOR, DUPAGE AME CHURCH: Well, Sunny, I want to thank you for having me on. It`s a privilege. And it`s just, you know,
amazing to see what a folk hero Sandy has become when in fact she is the victim. She died in custody. And the custodians beginning with the
trooper, why aren`t we having some attention and investigation there of what has been stated to be out of compliance and what about the jail there
which has so many things they mentioned insufficiencies that were cited and so on. And there`s more focus besides the person who we lost regardless of
how it ends.
HOSTIN: Well, that`s good point. Let`s go to Cheryl Dorsey, she`s a retired LAPD sergeant and the author of "The Creation of a Manifesto Black
and Blue."
Cheryl, the jail records clearly show that there was an alleged prior suicide attempt. We know in that jail in particular in 2012 someone
committed suicide. Should she have been in isolation? Should she have been kept there for three days?
CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED LAPD POLICE SERGEANT: Well, I don`t believe that whether she was in isolation or not would have much mattered because
factually I don`t believe she committed suicide. I believe that the jailers there are an extension of the officer who arrested her. We know
that this town has a history of racial discrimination and animus. And when you bring prisoners in you get to know the jailers.
And I`m sure when she got there she was just as mouthy if you will with the jailers as she was with the officers. And I think he tagged them, the
jailers, and they finished what he started in the field. I do not believe she committed suicide.
HOSTIN: Thank you, Cheryl.
Well, we remember American hero, California Police Officer Sergeant Scott Lunger, 48 years old, killed in the line of duty. He served the Hayward
Police Department for 15 years, including the SWAT team and gang unit. He was a volunteer softball coach and played adult league baseball. He leaves
behind two daughters.
Scott Lunger, an American hero.
"DR. DREW" is coming up next.
END
