Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Campus Cop Shoots Motorist Dead; Minnesota Dentist Sought in Lion Killing. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 29, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Ohio. Cincinnati reeling after a University of Cincinnati police officer shoots a motorist dead
during a simple traffic stop. Over what? A missing front license plate. In the last hours, the officer indicted for murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the most asinine act I`ve ever seen a police officer make, totally unwarranted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live. A Minnesota dentist tonight the target of not only protests, but a criminal investigation after he pays nearly $60,000 for a
luxury safari trip and he guns down the most famous lion in the country, the lion and his pride part of an Oxford University study, living quietly
on a game preserve when the dentist uses a dead animal carcass tied behind a vehicle to lure Cecil the lion from his home, shoots him with a crossbow,
then hunts the lion over two days before shooting him dead.
The dentist`s defense? What, there`s something wrong with that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cecil the lion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was lured out of a national park and killed by an American hunter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Working with a patient one on one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shot with a crossbow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Oracle, Arizona. Murder by rattlesnake?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the first time that he has heard of a suspect trying to use a venomous snake to attempt kill or injure a victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m terrified of snakes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) and him holding the snake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies say he was angry, claiming that the man ratted out a friend. And then he hit that man with a board and then tried
to force a snake to bite him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Seattle suburbs, a community in shock, a body found in a duffle bag at a Seatag (ph) apartment complex.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Ohio, Cincinnati reeling after a University of Cincinnati police officer shoots a motorist dead during a simple traffic
stop. Over what? A missing front license plate.
In the last hours, that officer indicted for murder, most of this caught on camera. Justin, if you could, please start the video. This is what we
believe happened. Take a look at this. Listen as the officer approaches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAY TENSING, U.C. POLICE OFFICER: OK. Do you have your license on you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So far, no sign of aggression.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENSING: OK. Do you know (INAUDIBLE)
SAMUEL DUBOSE, VICTIM: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. I`m going to ask you again. Do you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: I have a license. You can take my name.
TENSING: So do you not have your license on you? I`m asking you a direct question. Do you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE) What did you pull me over for?
TENSING: Again, the front tag.
DUBOSE: But it`s not illegal to not have a front tag. (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. Actually, it is. I`m going to ask you again. Do you have a license on you?
DUBOSE: I have a license. You can run my name.
TENSING: OK. Is that not on you, then?
DUBOSE: I don`t seem to have it on me.
TENSING: Be straight up with me. Are you suspended?
DUBOSE: No, I`m not suspended.
TENSING: Then why don`t you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: Because I don`t (INAUDIBLE) I`m sorry, but (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You hear the driver apologizing for not having his license.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUBOSE: I don`t have it on me.
TENSING: OK. Well, until I can figure out if you have a license or not, go ahead and take your seatbelt off.
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And what you`re seeing right now is running, running. The victim in this case is Samuel Dubose, just 43 years old, a father of 10. The
police officer is a 25-year-old cop, Ray Tensing. He works with the University of Cincinnati. He is armed. In the last hours, an indictment
has been handed down.
[20:05:02]Joining me right now on the scene, Melissa Neeley, anchor with WLW. Melissa, what do we know? What happened?
MELISSA NEELEY, WLW (via telephone): Well, what we know, Nancy, is that it is typical for the University of Cincinnati police to patrol the perimeter
of the university campus, where there is typically off housing -- off- campus housing for students.
Of course, it`s summer, so no one really knows yet, you know, why he pulled him over for such -- you know, what the prosecutor has said is a benign
offense, and why it escalated so quickly. But you can see by the video that the officer took things into his own hands.
GRACE: Everyone, you`re seeing the video. Here you see Samuel Dubose, a 43-year-old father of 10, talking to -- apologizing that he doesn`t have
driver`s license. How many of us have ever left the house without a driver`s license?
And he says, What? Having a front plate? There`s nothing wrong with that. And the cop says, Yes, it is. You`re supposed to have a tag on the front,
a license plate on the back and the front.
And somehow, everything goes haywire. Dubose never pulls a weapon on the cop, and he ends up being gunned down dead by police officer Ray Tensing.
Unleash the lawyers, David Lee Windecher, defense attorney, Atlanta and author, Parag Shah, also defense attorney.
Both of you are familiar with driving without a license and/or not having a tag, a car tag, a license plate on the back or the front of your car.
Every state does not require a front and a back, but the officer is correct. In that jurisdiction, you`re supposed to have a tag on the front
and back.
But that`s hardly an arrestable offense, is it, Windecher?
DAVID LEE WINDECHER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. That`s correct. As a matter of fact, he could have asked for other information, date of birth,
address of registration, license. There could have been a way to run his license without having the actual license. And this officer just took it
to a whole `nother level.
GRACE: Well, very often, Parag Shah, the officer will say, Just sit in your car, just stay seated, and they go back to their car and they run it
for the information.
But look at this video and see what happened. You hear the guy apologizing and apologizing. But somehow, everything goes sideways. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. You don`t have a license plate on your car.
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE) I have it.
TENSING: What`s that?
DUBOSE: It`s not here.
TENSING: And that`s actually -- that`s got to go where the front plate is supposed to go. You don`t have to reach for it. It`s OK. Do you have
your license on you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Somehow, everything goes haywire, and this father of 10 ends up dead on a traffic stop. Listen to what the DA said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been doing this for over 30 years. This is the most asinine act I`ve ever seen a police officer make, totally unwarranted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENSING: Be straight up with me. Are you suspended?
DUBOSE: No, I`m not suspended.
TENSING: Then why don`t you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: Because I don`t -- I just don`t. I`m sorry, sir. I`m fixing to go in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you stay at? Down here?
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. Well, until I can figure out if you have a license or not, go ahead and take your seatbelt off for me.
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. Stop!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:13:24]GRACE: A Minnesota dentist admits that he spent nearly $60,000 to go on a luxury safari, and during that safari, he manages to gun down
Zimbabwe`s most famous lion, Cecil the lion. The lion is actually living peacefully with his pride on a preserve.
How did they do it? Well, according to reports, they got the carcass of a dead animal, tied it behind a vehicle and lured Cecil the lion, completely
tagged for study by Oxford University -- lured him away.
The dentist then shoots the lion with a crossbow. They stalk the lion, who`s mortally wounded but not dead, for 40 hours, nearly two days, and
then shoot him. In a slow and painful death, Cecil the lion is dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of Africa`s best known lions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cecil was killed illegally by Palmer and his guides.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lion was lured out of Punti (ph) National Park and shot with a crossbow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Palmer admits to killing Cecil, but he says he didn`t know the lion`s significance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, CNN correspondent David McKenzie. David, thank you so much for being with us. What happened?
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, it`s as you describe it. According to authorities, they lured this lion outside of its reserve into
a hunting concession. And then this Minnesota dentist is accused of killing him with a bow, killing this famous lion from Zimbabwe, and then
stalking it for many hours and then putting an end to its misery, I guess, after 40-some hours.
[20:15:07]Now, there`s been worldwide anger over the killing of this lion, on social media, Twitter, Facebook, even Yelp, people saying, you know,
it`s not on for this hunter. He should have known better.
The hunter in question, this dentist, is saying that, well, he did kill this lion. He didn`t realize it was a well-known lion or that it came from
a reserve. And he`s blaming -- effectively passing the buck onto the professional hunters who he hired, Nancy.
GRACE: With me, everyone, David McKenzie, CNN correspondent joining us from Lions Gate, South Africa.
I hear what you`re saying, David, but it concerns me. How could he not know what he was doing was wrong? When you get an animal -- if you`re
going to shoot the lion, why not shoot it when you see it? Why tie a carcass of a dead animal to a vehicle and lure then lion far away and then
kill it? I mean, why would do that? If your goal is to shoot and kill a lion, why do you have to lure it away from a legitimate preserve?
MCKENZIE: Well, that`s a very good question, but you know, it may surprise you, Nancy, but that`s pretty common practice when it comes to trophy
hunting in southern Africa. It`s common for them to take a dead animal, tie it up, and draw the lion in.
Now, whether it`s legal or illegal, it depends on the circumstances. Certainly, the authorities in Zimbabwe saying this is illegal. They`ve, in
fact, charged the two professional hunters with poaching. They could face up to 10 years in prison.
But this doctor, Dr. Walter (ph), is, in fact, gone to ground. He`s just released a statement. He hasn`t been seen. His dentist practice has been
shut down. People are even leaving stuffed animals outside his dentist practice to make a statement. So there is a great deal of anger about it.
The other side of the coin is that many hunting associations say this money that`s used to hunt big cats can be funneled back into conservation. But I
think few would feel that this is an ethical hunt of any description, at this point, with facts that we know, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, David McKenzie, that`s something -- and I`m not saying hunting is bad. That`s not what I`m saying. I am saying -- I`ll go out on
a limb here. I`m saying that when you go to an animal preserve where animals have sanctuary and you lure an animal out with a dead carcass --
and this is a cat that Oxford University has been following, studying, him and his pride there in the sanctuary -- you trick it out, and then you
shoot it with a crossbow. You don`t kill it. The animal is dying. And it tries to run, and you chase the thing down for 40 hours and then shoot it
in the head with a gun.
Explain to me, David McKenzie, what is the sport in that? I don`t understand the thrill of that.
MCKENZIE: Well, one activist we spoke to, a conservationist, said, Well, it`s not hunting or sport, it`s murder. So certainly, there are people
very angry about this.
And the place I`m standing in right now here in South Africa, in fact, the only thing they really do here is rehabilitate big cats. Many of them
were, in fact, bred to be killed. So whether it`s sport or whether it`s just cruel and unusual punishment, it depends on your viewpoint. But
certainly, they`re looking for this hunter to bring him to justice, Nancy.
GRACE: To Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com. Candace, people pay tens of thousands of dollars, in this case, nearly $60,000 to go
to another country where you can hunt exotic animals that would not be allowed in the United States.
You`re fed exotic food on a linen table with china. You`re sitting out on the Serengeti or the savanna. You eat, eat, eat, eat. And then they
basically prop a gun in your hand, and you pull the trigger, and that`s the kill, the thrill of the kill, Candace. I mean, this one cost nearly
$60,000. It was $55,000, I think.
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): You know, I don`t think I`ve ever seen a reaction on the part of our audience as I have with this
story. People are outraged, Nancy. They are outraged. They`re outraged that -- about trophy hunting in general, and they`re outraged because this
animal suffered so.
Cecil was the pride of Zimbabwe. He was an amazing lion, and now not only that, but you know, he had six cubs. And a new alpha male will emerge.
And these cubs will be killed in order to remove his bloodline out of the pride.
[20:20:06]This is just a tragedy of unbelievable proportions to animal lovers everywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An American dentist is wanted for hunting and killing a protected lion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cecil was killed illegally by Palmer and his guides with a truck dragging a dead animal, luring Cecil from a protected area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And tragically, stalked it for many hours before they shot it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A local U.S. dentist admits to paying nearly $60,000 to go overseas, track down a sanctuary lion, the most famous lion in Zimbabwe,
lure him out of the preserve with a dead animal carcass tied behind a vehicle, drag it away, shoot him with a crossbow, track him for 40 hours as
he`s mortally wounded, and then shoot him dead in the head to finish him off. Again, I`m not against hunting. I don`t think many people are
against hunting for food.
[20:25:02]But to do this to a lion, an animal that is protected, part of an Oxford University study, living peacefully in a pride with his family. And
when he claims ignorance, let me remind everybody this same dentist has already been charged for illegal hunting before.
In that case, Candace Trunzo what happened when he shot the black bear?
TRUNZO: Yes, he shot a black bear. He shot him in Wisconsin illegally. And then he was fined for lying about it. That was back in 2008. And you
know, he has -- this guy has 43 registered kills.
GRACE: This incident has outraged so many people. Take a listen to Jimmy Kimmel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: I`m not against hunting. If you`re some A-hole dentist who wants a lion`s head over the fireplace in his man cave so his
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) buddies can gather around it and drink Scotch and tell him how awesome he is, that`s just vomitous! You want to make this into a
positive, you can -- sorry. I -- I`m -- OK, I`m good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from ABC`s "Jimmy Kimmel Live."
What was done to this lion is not typical hunting, OK? Unleash the lawyers. Also with me, Grey Stafford, Dr. Grey Stafford, director of
conservation, Wildlife World Zoo, author of "Animal Trainer."
You know, David Windecher, defense lawyer, let me go to you first. Give me one good reason this guy, this dentist, should not be extradited back and
face charges? Because when he says, I didn`t know it was a crime, BS! BS! He is a veteran hunter. He`s traveled all over the world hunting.
Put up Windecher please. Because Windecher, what he did that time was he was hunting bear, black bear. He shoots down a black bear, brings it over
to the (INAUDIBLE) and he goes, Oh, look what I just did, and he was busted. He knew darn well what he did was wrong, Windecher!
WINDECHER: Nancy, if Palmer walked into my office, I`d probably tell him to jump in a lake. What he did was inhumane and despicable. But guess
what? It wasn`t illegal. We talked about Oxford University`s research. Well, that research was conducted in conjunction with the wildlife
conservation, and they`ve tagged these lions since 1999. Sixty-two of them have been tracked...
GRACE: What`s your point?
WINDECHER: The point is that 24 other lions have been killed exactly like Cecil.
GRACE: Well, let me...
WINDECHER: ... Palmer killed the wrong lion and now...
GRACE: ... give you a little update, Mr. Windecher. Just because it`s done doesn`t mean it should be done. And when you say it`s not legal -- I
don`t know what you`re smiling about, Parag Shah.
Dr. Grey Stafford, this is absolutely illegal. Could you please explain why.
GREY STAFFORD, WILDLIFE WORLD ZOO: Well, Nancy, every rain (ph) state can control the quotas to how wildlife is managed. But if this animal was
baited off of a protected area just for the purpose of killing it, then I have to believe that is illegal in Zimbabwe, and it is certainly unethical
as a hunter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of Africa`s best known lions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cecil was killed illegally by Palmer and his guides.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lion was lured out of Hwange National Park and shot with a crossbow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Palmer admits to killing Cecil, but he says he didn`t know the lion`s significance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HNL HOST: Unleash, the lawyers joining me, Parag Shah, Defense Attorney, Atlanta, David Lee Windinger, Defense Attorney and Author
out of Atlanta.
All right Parag Shah, give me your best shot. Why should he not return to Zimbabwe for questioning? Do you know, we do have an international
agreement with them signed around 2000 allowing for exactly this type of extradition?
PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Although he`s a horrible person, he didn`t do anything illegal for two reasons. One, he had the proper permits and
second, he was following the professional hunters` lead. That`s why you have guides. He`s in another country. How is he supposed to know and how
are they going to prove that he knew it.
The only way they can prove it is if they flip those guides.
GRACE: Windinger, what are you shaking your head about?
DAVID LEE WINDINGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So you`re going to convict this guy on his prior conduct, his prior character evidence that you intend to bring
up?
GRACE: No, but I`m going to take it into -- I`m going to take it into consideration just like a jury would. And then, both of you keep going,
it`s not illegal, it`s not illegal, well guess what? The two people that guides, the professional local guides as you keep, incessantly referring to
them as, they`ve been charge criminally.
Hello? Put that in your pipe and smoke it. He did it with them. He was right there with him. So how was he any different?
SHAH: You can`t prove he knew it.
GRACE: OK...
WINDINGER: Nancy this happened on...
GRACE: OK. I want to take both of you back on down memory lane to first year law school. Think back, can you remember the old adage, "Ignorance of
the law is not an excuse".
For example, I think I`m driving a load of turnips over the state line, but guess what? It`s a load of cocaine. Ooh, I didn`t know. That is not a
defense. That`s mistake of fact.
Now, when you get in and you find out it`s against the law, you can`t claim, "Oh, I didn`t know murder was against the law. I didn`t know
selling cocaine was against the law". That`s not a defense. How can you even try to sell that to the viewers, Windinger?
WINDINGER: Nancy, this happened one month ago. If Zimbabwe would have wanted to bring him up on charges, they would have their embassy contact
our embassy, and transfers us to the Department of Justice. And they would have asked the United States Attorney to get a warrant to bring him in for
a bond hearing. And guess what? That doesn`t happened because it hasn`t...
GRACE: You know, live like.
WINDINGER: ... we can provide information for the other two people.
GRACE: OK. Are either of you denying that he was with the two that have already been charged in Zimbabwe for this? Or either of you denying that,
like you didn`t know, you put a dead carcass on the back of you Range Rover, your $100,000 Range Rover...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And you`re in the car, no that`s called the coconspirer or a codefendant.
SHAH: Simply being merely present ...
GRACE: You`re in the court doing it together.
SHAH: ... being merely pressing with -- simply being associated with people, you can`t be convict on that.
GRACE: Now what.
SHAH: So as far you can say is that...
GRACE: That didn`t work.
SHAH: ... he was with them that`s not enough.
GRACE: You know, you`re acting like your talking about a stolen Chevy, "Oh, I didn`t know it was stolen. I`m just in the back seat". I don`t
know anything.
We`re talking about hooking up a dead bloody carcass to the back of a vehicle, dragging it through the dirt, and luring this lion off its
preserve. You know, Dr. Gray Stafford, maybe these two they were ex- lawyers, I`ll given that much, don`t understand what a preserve is. This preserve was to protect the animals, and now this animal just going to be
stuffed sitting on his wall like Jimmy Kimmel said?
GRAY STAFFORD, AUTHOR OF THE PET TRAINING BOOK: Well you`re absolutely right, Nancy. I mean it is totally unethical to take a carcass and drag
it.
I mean, this guy is not a first-time hunter. He knew exactly what they were doing there and that is unethical. I can`t think of any responsible
for a hunter that would try to do that. So he had to know something was amiss there and it`s hard to believe.
GRACE: OK. Explain what Candace Trunzo was just telling us, Gray, Dr. Stafford, because this lion, Cecil the lion, who is famous in Zimbabwe...
STAFFORD: Yeah.
GRACE: ... why is his whole pride going to suffer. Now, all of his babies, his cubs, are going to be killed by the new leader of the pride.
The mothers of those cubs are going to try to protect their cubs. They`re going to get killed by the new leader of the pride Jericho. That`s what`s
going to happen now because of this dentist, this dentist.
STAFFORD: Well, Nancy, remember this is how lion society works. A young male takes over the dominant male and that`s how they pass their genes.
But the good news and all of this is, this animal, Cecil, had 13 years to rear cubs, his genes are well-represented in that area. And if there`s any
good news out of the situation it`s that, that he had a robust and successful life over those 13 years. The end was tragic but the bow took
his life.
GRACE: OK. We had asked you guys on social media, Twitter, Facebook, should he will prosecuted for killing Africa`s most beloved and well-known
cat? Anna Cervantes responds, "No. There`s plenty of people that kill any other animal. So why prosecute the doctor", he`s a dentist by the way,
"over killing a lion than every hunter should be prosecuted". Talking about bears, deer et cetera, all right.
Then, we got Ashley Lauren who says, "He knows it`s illegal and he lured the lion away from protected land, she goes on". So it split down the
middle so far. You can reach us Facebook, Twitter, I want to know what you think because this guy has broken Zimbabwe law.
We have a pact with Zimbabwe, Africa, to send him back.
I want to go now very quickly back to Candace Trunzo and Clark Goldband. Clark, is there any doubt that the dentist,, the American dentist, was
there along with the two others as they lured this lion away so they could shoot him dead?
CANDACE TRUNZO, SENIOR NEWS EDITOR, DAILYMAIL.COM: Well, Nancy, it`s not clear exactly who was where during the complete 40 hours, but I believed it
is safe to say, based on reports and what officials are saying in Zimbabwe, Nancy, that these three men were present during the hunt.
GRACE: And, you know, Karen Stark (ph), you know, I hate that to bring a shrink on this. I like to save you for something that a little bit deeper.
But Karen, again, I agree with Kimmel. I`m not against hunting. You want to go hunt, fine have at it.
But, the thought there`s something so sick about people out there with their linen table cloths and their silver forks and spoons, their China,
their exotic meals being prepared for them sitting out on the Savannah or the Serengeti. They stop themselves, they taut her out. Somebody hands
him a gun, they pull the trigger and that, what`s the thrill of that? That`s not a hunt. I mean this was not even a fair hunt, what they did to
this lion.
STARK (?): It`s the thrill of aggression, Nancy. When you take a look at anybody who`s an anti-social personality, I`m not saying this guy was. But
you have to look at the beginning to see that they do harm to animals. And this is just sport. It doesn`t have anything to do with wanting to eat the
animal or to make the population be decreased. He was just out there doing something that was so horrific and truly is like murder. I agree with you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live to Oracle, Arizona and murdered by rattlesnake?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scary moments for this man who shows up bumps on his head from the injury he sustained from the incident. The sheriff says
Harrison was going to kill the victim as he tried using a rattlesnake to bite him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputy saying Harrison fired a shot into a speaker as he forced the victim to his knees. But an unprecedented case such an
unusual murder weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Death by a rattlesnake, that`s just what was attempted. Tammy Rose, Investigative Reporter. So let me understand this, the perp in this
case, Nathaniel Buck Harrison, goes to a neighbor`s home, starts the confrontation and tries to murder him with a rattlesnake.
TAMMY ROSE, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: I`m not kidding you. It`s another bizarre case that happened last Thursday around 9:30 at night in Oracle
between Phoenix and Tucson. He enters the man`s home uninvited, accuses him of being a rat, then picks up a thick board, break it over the guy`s
head. Then, he pulls out this black snake and says that he`s going to kill him with it, but the snake won`t cooperate and won`t bite him. So then he
forces the guy to his knees holds out a gun and nearly misses his foot as he fires the shot.
But luckily neighbors heard the shot. They called police. They were able to get on scene and tap this guy into coming outside. And the snake was
found set free in the dessert.
Meanwhile, this guy sits in prison in Pinal County. Nancy?
GRACE: Joining me right now, Sheriff Paul Babeu from Pinal County Sheriff`s Office. Sheriff, thanks so much for being with us...
PAUL BABEU, PINAL COUNTY SHERRIFF: Yeah absolutely.
GRACE: I`ve never seen anything like it and I can`t even count the number of homicide cases I investigated and prosecuted.
Murder by rattlesnake, I mean, how did this guy think he could get the rattlesnake to strike on command?
BABEU: I know. You know, I`m glad -- I`m chuckling yet this is a deadly serious issue obviously. He went to this guy`s house with the intent to
kill him. He not only had a handgun, but he had a rattlesnake in tow and he grab the snake by the neck and try it force the head to the -- to the
victim trying to have the snakebite him. And thank goodness that the snake did not follow those wishes -- to terrible situation.
But we`ve never seen anything like this in our time here in Pinal County, and we`re a rural county, and we see snakes around. But we never thought
in a million years it would be used in an aggravated assault or attempted murder.
GRACE: To Gray Stafford, Dr. Gray Stafford, Director of Conservation, Wildlife World Zoo Author and Animal Trainer, OK. Dr. Gray, first of all,
you know how I feel about snakes but...
STAFFORD: I do.
GRACE: ... can a snake be trained?
STAFFORD: Yeah. They can be trained to do things like go from one exhibit to the next, to be handled like I`m handling this ball python, but to
strike on command like that against a person, that would be fairly farfetched.
GRACE: OK. Explain to me how it would work. I`m very surprised the snake didn`t bite and didn`t kill.
STAFFORD: Well, you know, obviously, we weren`t there, but this guy is handling this snake. That snake is probably looking to just get away from
the situation. If its body is being wrangled and handled, it may try to strike, but the (inaudible) may try to just flee the situation. Most
rattlesnakes are not vicious by nature. They`re not looking to pick a fight with humans, but they obviously will defend themselves if threatened.
GRACE: OK. Gray, what do you have there? I can`t really see all I can see is your hand.
STAFFRD: This is a ball python. And it just going to show that, you know, most snakes are calm and relax when you handle them barely like this. This
not a venomous snake, this is a constrictor. And, you know, it`s just good idea to leave them alone unless you know what you`re doing that`s...
GRACE: OK. Gray. I understand what you`ve got in your hand you say it`s calm. But I`ve never heard of a rattlesnake being calm.
STAFFORD: Well, I said a relocate several around my property and I`m going to tell you it is a hair-raising event every time. You need to take your
time and, and you never know exactly what they`re going to strike at. But that rattlesnake was probably frightened by being manhandled like he was.
So I`m not surprised that he didn`t strike right away, his probably trying to threaten and more away the people that were aggressive.
GRACE: You know, Gray, I hear you, but I find it very hard to sympathize with a rattlesnake. Let me ask you this, have you ever heard of a snake,
well, we`ve heard of snake trainers, snake charmers. Have you ever heard...
STAFFORD: Right.
GRACE: ... of a snake being trained to do anything?
STAFFORD: Not like that, not to attack a person like that. But certainly to go to feeding station or from one exhibit to the next, yes, Snakes are a
capable of learning those simple behaviors for sure.
GRACE: Well, basically, I don`t know your saying to -- with a snake gets dead rat and eats and that is actually training it. But, you know, I don`t
know if I agree with that.
I want to go back to the Sheriff Paul Babeu with Pinal County Sheriff`s Office. Sheriff, again, thank you for being with us.
So when your guys get on the scene, how do they manage to secure the snake, the rattlesnake?
BABEU: Well, we actually call our friends in the fire department and they came. They came with the proper implements in order to safely, not only
capture the rattlesnake but to be able release it. The story ends well for the rattlesnake, was released back to the wild where I`m sure he wanted to
be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Live, Seattle suburbs, a community in shock when a body is found in a duffle bag at SeaTac apartment complex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body had been sitting there. This grizzly crime scene has shocked neighbors, now wonder if they`re safe. It would be easy
residents say for somebody to go unnoticed near the dumpster at night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Michael Board, WOAI. Michael, after hearing what many of the residents have to say, they`re in shock and they`re afraid.
One family with the wife, the dad and the little girl just starting school lives in that apartment closest to the dead body found in the duffle bag,
what do we know?
MICHAEL BOARD, WOAI: Well, we don`t know a whole lot at this point, simply because police say this body is so decomposed, they don`t know if it`s a
man or a woman, young or old, a lot of unanswered questions on this one, Nancy.
But what we do know is that there`s somebody out there who not only killed someone, but also was so devious that they stuffed the body into a duffle
bag and left it just sitting there outside of a dumpster at an apartment complex.
GRACE: Well, if you could roll that bag, Justin (ph), loop it back around because you -- I mean this dead body, and we`re waiting to confirm who it
is, what it is many man, woman, child. It`s so close to the next apartment, stuffed in a black duffle bag at a SeaTac apartment. It`s there
in the Seattle suburbs.
Dr. Bill Manion, Forensic Pathologist, joining us tonight. Dr. Manion, can`t you look at the bones and the body and determine if it`s a man or a
woman.
DR. BILL MANION, M.D. FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, especially the pelvis. And we have a bone specialist, anthropologist, who will study the bones.
And can tell from the pelvis whether it`s a man or a woman, from the skull also that is helpful, and can also make a good guess on the race also based
on bones.
GRACE: To Sergeant Stan Seo, just joining us. Sergeant Seo, the spokesperson for King County Sheriff`s Office. Sergeant, thanks so much
for being with us.
The tip line, anybody, 206-296-3311.
Sergeant, after hearing what some of the residents have to say, their apartment, it looks to be like 30 to 40 feet from this dead body and one
woman was saying she is afraid to walk down the road. She could be killed and a body put right there, nobody would ever know what happened.
What`s going on in the investigation, Sergeant?
SGT. STAN SEO, KING COUNTY SHERIFF`S SPOKESMAN: Well, obviously, first of all, thanks for inviting me. And, yes, obviously, for the residents there
in any crime situation especially something like this. It`s really scary and, you know, I totally empathize with them and understand why, you know,
it would be disturbing.
As far as the investigation goes, our detectives have turned the remains over to the M.E`s office for King County, and they have an extra matters
like your other guest was saying, an experts in pathology and anthropology to determine, you know, race, sex, anything like that.
I think we`re also looking at other techniques to include attempting to lift latent fingerprints from the body in order to run it through the
Automated Fingerprint Identification System, International Database and assist us within identifying the person, so we can identify the person and
also you can get additional tips...
GRACE: Well, that leads me to another question, Sergeant Seo.
SEO: Yeah.
GRACE: Sergeant Stan Seo joining us. Sergeant, inside the duffle bag was the body actually in a plastic bag?
SEO: I`m not really at liberty to say what the condition of the body was, and what it was in. I actually did not see it, but -- so I`m sorry, I
can`t tell any on that.
GRACE: OK. Everybody, you`re seeing the duffle bag we`re talking about, the community in shock after finding a dead body. Just feet away from the
apartment complex where a mom and her little girl and husband lived, waiting for I.D. on that tip line 206-296-3311.
Let`s stop and remember, American hero, Army Specialist Robert Blair, just 22, Ocala, Florida, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, a cowboy, loved bull riding
and dreamed of being a firefighter, brother Allen, stepmother Karen.
Robert Blair, American hero.
Drew up next, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, goodnight friends.
END
