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Nancy Grace
Cincinnati Campus Cop Shooting Video;
Aired July 30, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live on the scene, Ohio, Cincinnati reeling after a University of Cincinnati police officer shoots a
motorist dead during a simple traffic stop. Over what? A missing front license plate. The officer indicted for murder.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, the cop now charged with murder, in court, $1 million bond, the cop now claiming he was fighting for his own
life. Against who, an unarmed man in a car with a seatbelt on?
Tonight, we slow-mo the cop`s bodycam video to analyze what really happened. The cop says the dead victim was trying to run him over. But is
that what the bodycam video shows?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emotions running high as newly released body camera footage shows campus police officer Ray Tensing shoot and kill 43-year-old
Samuel Dubose during a routine traffic stop.
RAY TENSING, CAMPUS POLICE OFFICER: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. Stop! Stop!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live. Malaysia Airlines flight 370 with 239 people on board, including Americans, vanishes without a trace. Why has the crash been
shrouded in mystery? Tonight, as fragments of what we believe to be the flap wing of flight 370 wash up on a remote island in the Indian Ocean,
what or who caused the crash of flight 370?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A suspected piece of wreckage from the missing Malaysia Airline 370 plane has been found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is where the plane debris washed ashore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities know the plane intentionally veered off course.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For many of the families, this is the first time in a very long time that they`re beginning to feel some faint glimmer of hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live on the scene, Ohio, Cincinnati reeling after a University of Cincinnati police officer shoots a motorist dead during a
simple traffic stop. Over what? A missing front license plate.
The officer indicted for murder. In the last hours, the cop now charged with murder in court, a $1 million bond, the cop now claiming he, the cop,
was fighting for his life. Against who, an unarmed man in a car with a seatbelt on?
Tonight, we slow-mo the cop`s bodycam video to analyze what really happened, the cop saying the dead victim was trying to run him over, to
kill him. But is that what the cop`s own bodycam video shows?
Joining me right now on the scene, CNN correspondent Jean Casarez. Jean, you`ve just come out of the courtroom. First, what happened in the
courtroom?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was incredible! You know, Nancy, you and I have been in so many courtrooms together, and today was something
that I think we`ve never seen before.
The courtroom is packed. The pews are filled. People are lining the walls. It`s about to start. And then all of a sudden, wait a minute! The
victim`s family, they`re in the hall! They can`t get in because there`s not a seat. Mark O`Mara, their attorney, just stood there talking to court
officials, and finally, they had to ask, Do we have any volunteers that will stand up and give their seats to the family members of this victim?
People readily stood up, and the family members of this man, this driver of a car, unarmed, as you`re saying -- they came in, they sat down. And then
it got going. And that`s when he pleaded not guilty and the bail of $1 million was set by the judge.
GRACE: With me at the scene is Jean Casarez, who has just come out of the courtroom.
Justin, if you could, let`s go straight to the video, the bodycam of the police officer, and let`s see if we can determine what happened in the
regular speed. Let`s go with that, Justin.
Everyone, you are seeing Samuel Dubose, a 43-year-old father of 10. Let`s take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENSING: How`s going, man?
SAMUEL DUBOSE, DRIVER: Hey, how`s it going.
TENSING: Good. (INAUDIBLE) U.C. police. Do you have a license on you?
DUBOSE: Yes. What happened? What did I do?
TENSING: OK. Is this your car?
DUBOSE: Yes. I was coming back from a funeral, actually. (INAUDIBLE)
[20:00:02]TENSING: OK. Why don`t you have a license plate on your car?
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE) I have it.
TENSING: What`s that?
DUBOSE: It`s in here. Let me...
TENSING: Oh, OK. That`s actually -- that`s got to go where the front plate`s supposed to go. You don`t have to reach for it. It`s OK. Do you
have a license on you? (INAUDIBLE) battle on the floor there?
DUBOSE: Oh, that`s a bottle if air freshener.
TENSING: A bottle of what?
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE) air freshener...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, there`s a gin bottle. Doesn`t look like a gun, does it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUBOSE: OK, do you know (INAUDIBLE) or what?
DUBOSE: I have my title and stuff (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. I`m going to ask you again. Do you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: I have a license. You can run my name.
TENSING: So you -- you don`t have your license on you? I`m asking you a direct question. Do you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: I thought I did (INAUDIBLE) What did you pull me over for?
TENSING: Again, the front tag.
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. Actually, I`m going to ask you again, do you have a license on you?
DUBOSE: I have a license. You can run my name.
TENSING: OK. Is that not on you, then?
DUBOSE: I don`t think I have it on me.
TENSING: Be straight up with me. Are you suspended?
DUBOSE: Me? I`m not suspended.
TENSING: Then why don`t you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: Because I don`t -- I just don`t. I`m sorry (INAUDIBLE) Honestly, I`m going to the house.
TENSING: OK. Where do you stay at, down here?
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: OK. Well, I`m trying to figure out if you have a license or not. Go ahead and take your seatbelt off for me.
DUBOSE: (INAUDIBLE)
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. Stop! Stop!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, here we see the police officer running.
Let me go back to Jean Casarez standing by. Jean (INAUDIBLE) breaks down into the police officer running with his bodycam. To Jean -- I can`t
exactly make out when the shot was fired. It looks like it was fired when the victim reaches over to undo his seatbelt.
What is the defense saying? What is the defense for the cop saying happened?
CASAREZ: Here`s what we`re learning. I just sat down and interviewed the defense attorney, and because we had heard that the officer put his hand
inside the car. And I asked him why? Why did he put his hand inside the car?
What he`s saying is that the officer reached inside to try to get the key out of the ignition, and in doing so, reaching through the steering wheel,
got his hand tangled as the car started to drive off.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Hold on, Jean. Let me just digest what you`re telling me. You`re telling me the police officer,
Tensing`s, lawyer says that cop reached in to turn off the car and went through the steering wheel?
CASAREZ: Or to get the keys, but yes, to stop it from proceeding. And in doing so, as he says on the tape -- and remember, there`s three body camera
tapes. My hand got tangled. So that`s how he says his hand got tangled.
GRACE: OK. How do we go from, My hand got tangled, and the guy`s dead. How did that happen?
CASAREZ: And do what?
GRACE: How do we go from, the -- My hand got tangled in the steering wheel, says the cop, and the man is dead? Dubose is dead.
CASAREZ: The defense -- it`s all about the state of mind. So the defense is going to say that in the hand getting tangled and the car proceeding,
going forward, either a rolling coast or mashing down the accelerator, as the defense is saying, that he thought he was going to be killed by being
trapped with a tangled hand getting under the car and being killed.
GRACE: OK. All right. Stay with me, Jean -- Jean Casarez joining me, CNN correspondent, right there where a million-dollar bond has just been
posted.
Let`s slow-mo the video and see -- it happens in such a flurry. OK, here we go. Look at this.
(VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Look at this. When is the shot fired? Looks like he`s undoing the seatbelt. I see another hand. There`s the gun right there.
So what, is he reaching in with his left hand to get the steering -- his hand is not in the steering wheel. His hand is not in the steering wheel!
I can see that.
[20:10:00]So let me keep looking. Is the officer reaching in, and is his hand stuck in the steering wheel? He`s got his gun out. I see that, got
his gun out with his right hand -- there -- is that his hand again? Clark, is that his hand again right there? It`s not in the steering wheel. Look
at this.
OK, this is going to be played and replayed and replayed and replayed to determine whether the defense is accurate that the cop is reaching in.
He`s obviously right-handed. He`s got his gun in his right hand. So he would have to be -- hand is not in the steering wheel.
OK, Jean Casarez, joining me at the courthouse. Jean, he`s saying that he is reaching in, I guess with his left hand, even though he`s right-handed,
and he whips out his gun at the same time? I looked at the bookend sheet for the cop. I don`t see anything about lacerations, bruises, nothing
suggesting that he was harmed in any way.
Now, there`s another cop that pulls up, I think after the shooting, that says he saw the police officer getting dragged. Is there anything to
support the cop getting dragged, other than the cop saying that after the fact?
CASAREZ: Very big question that I asked. What is the evidence? Because we don`t see any dragging on these body cameras. The defense attorney told
me in one of the body cameras, that on the first five seconds -- and it`s not the officer himself, it`s another one -- on the first five seconds, you
see the officer down on the ground in the middle of the street, not where the shot took place but in the middle of the street.
To the defense, that shows that he was dragged there. And the video shows him. And then he stands up. And my question was, Well, then why didn`t
his body camera as it was recording show him being dragged?
GRACE: Well, another thing is this...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Jean, another thing on that. If he was -- if he was in the street, the state is saying it`s because he just shot Dubose in the head and reeled
back and fell. That`s what they`re saying.
CASAREZ: That`s right, that he just fell over on his own accord. And they`re saying that they`re learning that body cameras are not foolproof,
that they can stop working at certain points of time. And so if you don`t get the dragging on the tape that that is why.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:00]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-minute-long video shows Tensing pulling over Dubose for a missing front license plate. Frame by frame, you
see the police officer reach for Dubose`s door.
TENSING: I still have to figure out if you have a license or not. Go ahead and take your seatbelt off.
DUBOSE: I didn`t do nothing.
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. Stop! Stop!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m so glad that the man that murdered my son is in jail now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me at the courthouse, where a million-dollar bond has just been posted for this cop, this Officer Ray Tensing -- hey, you`re seeing
that gin bottle. According to the victim, he had air freshener in that. It`s being tested right now. Was it gin or was it air freshener? We`ll
find out.
Jean Casarez with me. She just came out of the courtroom, a million-dollar bond posted for Officer Ray Tensing. Also joining me by phone, a renowned
lawyer, Stew Matthews (ph), is joining us, and he is Officer Tensing`s lawyer.
So Jean, you could tell me what the sister told you?
CASAREZ: Well, the sister told me that she was very glad it was a million dollars bond, that she does not want him walking on the street. She
doesn`t understand that he is devastated at being in jail but not devastated at shooting her brother. And I`m not sure that`s how he defines
devastating, but that`s what she believes, that he`s not devastated that he killed her brother.
And she said that they want justice and that it`s very hard to watch this video because it shows her brother being killed. But they`re getting used
to it, and they will be here at the courthouse as the proceeding keeps going.
GRACE: Jean, I`ll be right back with you. Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent, joining me just fresh out of the courtroom.
With me right now, the officer`s defense lawyer. He`s a very well known lawyer in that region. Stew Matthews is with us. Mr. Matthews, thank you
for being with us.
STEW MATTHEWS, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER TENSING (via telephone): Thank you for having me.
GRACE: You know, Mr. Matthews, there is a lot of "He say, she say" said about what the defense is, but you have actually stated what your client
tells you happened. What does your client, Officer Tensing, say happened?
MATTHEWS: Officer Tensing`s defense is, and has been since the day this happened, that he was -- when Mr. Dubose put his car into gear and mashed
the accelerator to the floor, taking off, dragging Officer Tensing, he thought he was going to be sucked under the car and run over. And for that
reason, he felt like his life was in danger, and he was defending himself.
GRACE: Everyone, with me, Stew Matthews, who is Officer Ray Tensing`s defense lawyer, explaining the defense.
So he says, your client -- Officer Tensing says that the deceased, Samuel Dubose, accelerated and took off, and your client was afraid he was going
to get run over. Is that correct?
[20:20:02]MATTHEWS: Yes. That is the short version of it, but yes.
GRACE: OK. I want to be sure I understand. What am I missing? Is there something in those facts I`m missing, Mr. Matthews?
MATTHEWS: Well, the video shows Officer Tensing -- first off, Officer Tensing attempted to open Mr. Dubose`s door. Mr. Dubose takes one hand and
pulls the door shut, and with his other hand, he is sticking his key in the ignition. And in one continuous movement, he starts the car, puts the car
into drive, and mashes the accelerator.
Officer Tensing felt as if he could -- and this was a mistake that he made -- that he felt as if he could reach in and get the keys out of the
ignition and stop Mr. Dubose from leaving. At that point, his arm became somehow caught in the car, or through the steering wheel -- somehow, his
arm was hung up and he was being dragged. And at that point, he felt like he was going to fall off the car and be sucked underneath it and run over
and killed.
GRACE: Now, we`re showing a still shot. Justin, am I seeing Officer Tensing on the ground? Is that what I`m seeing when you`re showing me that
still shot with the arrow? That is Officer Tensing on the ground. And it looks like he`s holding a gun straight out. He`s holding his arm straight
out.
Is the vehicle on the left, Justin -- is that Mr. Dubose`s vehicle? That`s my question. Because vehicle hasn`t really gone anywhere. We think it is.
Yes, it is.
Now, back to Officer Tensing`s defense lawyer. Stew Matthews is joining us, a renowned lawyer in that area. So Mr. Matthews, I`m playing and
replaying and replaying the video. So your client then reached in with his left hand? That -- if we were not in a life-threatening situation, why he
is reaching in with his left hand -- he`s right-handed -- and pulling his gun out at the same time?
MATTHEWS: Well, I`m not sure exactly what you`re seeing on that video. And we will be -- you know, everybody has a different opinion of what that
video shows. But we will be hiring an expert who will, hopefully, be able to analyze that and the video from the other two officers that were
involved. And we can put together what happened.
You just talked about Mr. Tensing in the middle of the street. He fell off of the car and was laying in the middle of the street, and the second
officer`s video clearly shows him getting up, and he is some distance from the point where the traffic stop took place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:40]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t -- this doesn`t happen in the United States, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More troubling than just that is the fact that after having murdered somebody, then he starts this cover-up immediately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the most asinine act I`ve ever seen a police officer make, totally unwarranted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, the defense attorney for Officer Tensing. Stew Matthews is with us. Your client got $1 million bond today. Could
that be property or money? I understand his father has a home. Could they put that up for collateral and he could walk?
MATTHEWS: Well, the way it works here in Hamilton County is the million- dollar bond the judge set could be posted at 10 percent. So it would take $100,000 cash, or if they use property, they`d have to have property worth
$2 million, with at least $1 million equity. That`s not going to happen.
GRACE: Can you mix it, property and money?
MATTHEWS: Well, it could be -- I guess it could be a combination. But there isn`t property anywhere near sufficient to cover it.
GRACE: Is he going to be held in protective custody or no?
MATTHEWS: He is at this point, yes, and will be as long as he`s held. Hopefully, he`s going to be out soon.
GRACE: Joining me right now, anchor with WLW, Melissa Neeley. Melissa, thank you for being us with. I notice that nobody in these videos, the
bodycam videos, tries to render aid to Dubose. What happened?
MELISSA NEELEY, WLW (via telephone): That`s right. Well, you can see on the bodycam videos and the additional ones that were released, the other
officers showed up down the street from where the actual traffic stop happened. So by that time, I think when they -- they checked on Mr.
Dubose, he had passed, obviously. So I don`t think that -- I mean, his head wound was extensive. So he was not alive.
GRACE: To Harry Houck joining us, former NYPD detective, Houck Consulting. Harry, the police officer, Officer Ray Tensing, says that he was dragged or
afraid he was going to be dragged. But I can`t help but notice he got up and was running. I see -- can you run that bodycam video for me, Justin?
That`s why the bodycam video is doing like that, because he`s running. He`s not hurt too bad.
HARRY HOUCK, RET. NYPD DETECTIVE: Right. Well, also, if he was being dragged, we would see some type of dragging on the video also. As you see
the video going up and down the whole time after virtually (ph) the shots - - after he takes the shot, you can see it`s just all running and running. And the fact that he`s down on the ground -- maybe he fell when he was
running, I don`t know.
GRACE: Could have.
HOUCK: But that`s what -- that could happen.
GRACE: Could have. That`s right. That is right. Stew Matthews, we`ve got a shot of your client on the ground. But it seems almost immediate --
he`s up and running based on his bodycam, Stew Matthews.
MATTHEWS: He was. No question about it.
GRACE: So he`s not injured.
MATTHEWS: He suffered a couple scrapes. He wasn`t seriously injured, no. And nobody ever said he was.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. I know that he was taken to the hospital but got right back out. So -- and even if he had been injured, at the time he was
injured would have been after the gunshot. What really matters here, the critical moment is what happened at the time he opened fire.
You`re saying he never -- was he ever dragged, Mr. Matthews?
STEW MATTHEWS, ATTORNEY FOR OFFICER TENSING: My information is that, yes, he was.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Emotions running high as newly released body camera footage shows campus police officer Ray Tensing shoot and kill 43-year-old
Samuel DuBose during a routine traffic stop.
SAMUEL DUBOSE, VICTIM: I didn`t even do nothing. Why you --
RAY TENSING, UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI CAMPUS POLICE OFFICER: Go ahead and take your seat belt off. Stop. Stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live on the scene. Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent, joining us after Officer Tensing, now murder defendant, post a $1 million bond. As
in most jurisdictions in this country, he could put up 10 percent of that mixed with money and possibly real estate collateral to get out of jail.
[20:35:10] Also with me, his defense attorney, very well known in that area, Stew Matthews is joining us. And he just told me his client got
dragged. Dragged.
Jean Casarez, the lawyer Stew Matthew says that his client Tensing stuck his hand in there. I notice he`s doing it with his left hand. He is
right-handed, which doesn`t make sense to me. But not completely unbelievable. Because the victim in this case cranked up the car in one
fluid motion, put it in drive and took off.
Jean, is there any evidence the officer was dragged?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think that the evidence that I understand would be five seconds of one of these body cameras where the
defendant is on the ground, not where he shot the victim but farther down the road. And then the car is beyond that. So it`s the defense`s theory
that how did he get there? How did he get on the ground there? He must have been dragged. And so is there any body camera evidence of that? I
don`t believe there is.
But what they`re saying is that body cameras sometimes are not foolproof. Sometimes they can go off for a few seconds, especially maybe if you`re
being dragged, I guess.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa. Whoa.
So Stew Matthews, did your client`s body cam coincidentally turn off right after the shooting?
MATTHEWS: I don`t think it turned off. But I just received a call from some -- from a university professor who told me that he has studied these
body cameras and they are not infallible. That in order -- and I don`t understand the mechanics or science of it. But in order for them to save
space, one out of every three frames, allegedly, is an actual frame. I don`t -- I didn`t quite follow what he was saying.
GRACE: Well, Stew --
MATTHEWS: But we intend to look into that.
GRACE: You`ve tried quite a few felony cases as have I. You go ahead and put that university professor up on the stand and watch the jury go
straight to sleep. OK? But let me get back to this body cam.
Justin, you could roll it again in slow mo? Because there may not be anything missing. There is such a flurry of activity, we may have it all,
and we just can`t decipher it. So let`s see it in slow mo. OK. Here we go. Here we go. I see the officer`s left hand reaching in. The victim
still has on a seat belt. Still has on a seat belt. The gun is out. OK. The seat belt is off. Is that -- no. The seat belt is on. The seat belt
is still across him. You see left hand going in. I don`t see any movement on the car key.
Justin, one more time. If you can run it in regular speed with sound. And let`s see. Are we really missing anything? Or do we have it -- there is
the gun with his right hand.
Jean, I can`t see the car moving at all. So far. And also, Jean, what tells me -- what do you know about the car moving before the shot goes off,
Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, I think the video is what`s going to tell it. But I think what may happen, you don`t -- Nancy, there`s a lot of commotion, right?
What I want to know, and you tell me, is there any commotion before the shot goes off or is all of the commotion after the shot goes off?
GRACE: Oh, yes. I hear you. You`re saying, hey, don`t crank the car up. Don`t take off. What are you doing, man? No, I didn`t hear any of that.
But let`s listen to it again. Roll it for me, Justin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TENSING: Do you not have your license on you? I`m asking you a direct question. Do you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: No. I mean, what did you pull me over for?
TENSING: Again, the front tag.
DUBOSE: But it`s not illegal to not have a front tag.
TENSING: OK. Actually, I`m going to ask you again, do you have a license on you?
DUBOSE: I have a license. You can run my name.
TENSING: OK. But it`s not on you then?
DUBOSE: I don`t think I have it on me.
TENSING: Be straight up with me. Are you suspended?
DUBOSE: No, I`m not suspended.
TENSING: Then why don`t you have your license on you?
DUBOSE: I just don`t. I`m sorry, bro. I`m just going to go to the house.
TENSING: OK. Where do you stay at, down here?
DUBOSE: Right down there.
TENSING: OK. So I`m still trying to figure out if you have a license or not. Go ahead and take your seat belt off.
DUBOSE: I didn`t do nothing.
TENSING: Go ahead and take your seat belt off. Stop, stop. I`m good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:09] GRACE: Come out of it, Justin. All right.
Stew Matthews and Jean Casarez, I do hear the officers yelling stop, stop, but I can`t tell if that`s before or after the gunshot. That`s the thing.
And also, Jean Casarez, was the car running the whole time during the entire traffic stop? Was the car running?
CASAREZ: That I don`t know. But if there was a motivation to put the hand in to get the car -- the keys out of the ignition, something changed? What
would motivate you to do that? I don`t know. But what I`m trying to do is I`m trying to formulate his state of mind. I`m trying to understand what
he was thinking at that time.
GRACE: Stew Matthews, defense attorney for Officer Tensing, with us. Was the car running during the traffic stop? Because I`ve never heard of that
happening before.
MATTHEWS: It was not.
GRACE: It`s not running.
MATTHEWS: Mr. DuBose shut the car off in order to go into his glove box and try to get his license plate out that was supposed to be on the front
of the car. When Officer Tensing asked him to step out of the vehicle and put it and started to open the door with one hand, Mr. DuBose grabbed the
door shut it and with the other hand, he had keys in his hand, he jammed them into the ignition, put the car into gear and mashed his foot on the
accelerator.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:42] GRACE: Live, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, 239 people onboard including Americans vanishes without a trace. Why has this crash been
shrouded in mystery?
Tonight, fragments of what we believe to be the flap wing of Flight 370 washes up on a remote island in the Indian Ocean. What or who caused the
crash of Flight 370?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The barnacles you see in this picture will be vital in establishing where the debris sank and how long it`s been underwater.
Perhaps they discovered something pretty crucial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now in addition to Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former pilot, Clive Irving with us, contributor with "The Daily
Beast."
Clive, thank you for being with us. I understand many of the family, the relatives of the victims of the flight want to know if the flight crew and
the passengers got off the plane at some point and re-boarded the plane before the crash. Where are they getting that theory?
CLIVE IRVING, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: That`s just one of many completely crazy theories that are out there. And I was hoping that
finally when something tangible does turn up as it did on Reunion this will put an end to all these bizarre conspiracy theories including one, for
example, it was somehow flown into a cave in Afghanistan.
I think the most important and encouraging news is that if this is the part from the 777, then it`s the first piece of physical evidence the
investigators will have had in 17 months and there`s no substitute for getting physical evidence. There is nothing much they can tell about what
happened to this particular plane on the very strange circumstances without actually having pieces of metal to look at.
And already we know from this one piece of metal -- actually, not metal, it`s a composite thing. It`s just one of the reasons why it floated so
far. It was a very buoyant piece. But one of the things we know that they already be able to tell is what kind of impact the plane had on the ocean
from the damage that was done to this particular part.
One expert I`ve spoken to tells me that he thinks it`s consistent with the idea that the end of its flight it flew for six hours without any human
intervention. At the end of its flight it ran out of gas and spiraled down without any power and hit the water. And --
GRACE: OK, Clive, let me ask you a question..
IRVING: Yes.
GRACE: The theory that the plane ran out of gas, all right. That sounds like something that might happen when you`re 17 years old and you just
started driving.
IRVING: Yes.
GRACE: Why would a flight with 300 people on it run out of gas?
IRVING: That goes to the heart of the mystery, you know. And obviously that never normally happens. And it could only happen if the crew was
somehow completely disabled and were not in charge of the flight anymore.
GRACE: What about bodies?
Dr. Michelle DuPre, forensic pathologist, what about bodies?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, M.D., FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Nancy, it`s been quite some time. I don`t think that we`ll find bodies. We may find some
evidence of human remains. But it will be few and far between. And I`m not sure that we`ll find that after this period of time.
GRACE: "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My grandmother was full blood Lakota. My grandma was my world. She asked me if I would promise to go home and help our people
when I grew up.
The Lakota Reservations are very isolated. The spirit of the people is alive. But they struggle with the conditions tremendously. We have
extremely high rates of suicide, addictions, food often is in very short supply, unemployment, health issues are another huge challenge.
I formed a group to keep a promise to my Lakota grandmother to go home and help our people.
And we`re almost to the front door. There you go. You`re at the front door.
[20:50:02] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At first I was traumatized because I was blind. All my electricity, outlets and stuff were no good, and it could
have been a house fire.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re doing as much as we can to make her house safe for her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s going to be more newer in here. I can`t see it, but I feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve been teaching how to eat healthy on a very limited budget. We have a medical team. We work collaboratively with the
tribe everywhere we go.
So we`re going to continue the toys and the new clothing.
We get in everything from beds to the food.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s a blessing to our reservation. We call her (INAUDIBLE). That means you`re helping people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re all children of this earth and we need to work together so that everyone has a chance of having a decent life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:10] GRACE: What or who caused the crash of Flight 370? With me, Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former pilot.
What do you think?
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I`ve always thought it was a mechanical because of the turnback. And I always go to the last known
fact. What do we last know for sure? And that`s the only thing we can say for absolutely certain is that something happened and they turned back
towards Kuala Lumpur. But unfortunately the debris found yesterday won`t clear up why it crashed. But it has confirmed that it did crash into the
ocean.
GRACE: Unleash lawyers. Alex Sanchez, New York. Jeff Gold, Atlanta. And Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author.
Some of the theories, Alex Sanchez -- let me first go to you -- that there was a terrorist attack and a suicide mission by the Chinese Navy.
Now you as defense attorneys are experts at spinning the facts and coming up with theories. There`s also a theory that Putin, Vladimir Putin is
involved.
Sanchez, where are these theories coming from?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know where they`re coming from, but I`ll tell you one thing. That piece of evidence they recovered is
absolutely amazing. They could determine a lot of information. Was that plane hit by some type of a mortar? Is there evidence of an explosion or a
fire? Was there any other ingredients found in that piece which would indicate there were some type of terrorist attack?
That will be very important to the families and it will be very important to the pilots` families to rule them out as having anything to do with the
destruction of that plane.
GRACE: What about it, Jeff Gold?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`d say this. No other 777 had gone down. This is the only one that has gone down. And that gives me some
pause that it was just mechanical. Because none of them had any other mechanical problems. But conspiracy theories, you know, run abound
everywhere today. I don`t know what happened.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, before you rule out anybody`s theories, why would the victims` families be coming up with these theories?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Nancy, I`m not surprised they`re coming up with these theories. The fact is there`s
enormous ambiguity in this situation. We do not know what happened. And in the face of ambiguity, the mind reads into it the worst possible case
scenario. Enormous suffering, torture on the plane, loss of breath for prolonged periods of time.
So the families are trying to fill in the blanks with something that makes sense to them, even if it`s a crazy conspiracy theory.
GRACE: Mary Schiavo, former pilot -- Mary, what do you make of some of these theories? Before we pooh-pooh them, I`m not talking about the
Chinese government or Vladimir Putin, all right? Talking about the other theories related to the pilot, the copilot, other theories. I mean, how
can we rule all of that out by one flap wing?
SCHIAVO: Well, we can`t by one flap wing. But just by being a prosecutor we rule them out by the lack of evidence. We don`t have any evidence of
any terrorist attack or any criminal activity. Our own Federal Bureau of Investigation examined the pilots and every person on the plane. They were
called in to help. The report released in March of this year was a 584- page report. They found no evidence of any criminal activity.
And so the lack of any evidence is evidence. And so I think those things can help the families rule it out. But for the poor families, they did not
get that news for an entire year. And their investigator -- investigative agency doesn`t have a branch like we have at the NTSB that is required to
keep the families briefed. That was part of the problem. No information.
GRACE: Let`s remember, American hero, Army Private First Class Nicholas Cornelius, 25, New Hampshire. Purple Heart, National Defense Service
Medal, Army Achievement Medal. Loved concerts, playing pool, the Boston Red Sox. Parents Dennis and Linda, sister Natalie.
Nicholas Cornelius, American hero.
And a special good night from Colorado friends, Amani and Emily. Aren`t they beautiful?
I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.
NANCY GRACE signing off for tonight. I hope to see you here tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friends.
END
