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Nancy Grace
Man Shot by Police in Ferguson; Illegal Immigrant Murders California Woman; Air Force Vet Brutally Attacked, Murdered; 5-Year-Old Boy Missing. Aired 20:30-21:00p ET.
Aired August 10, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, small town Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the street, the
city of Ferguson unhinged after the cop who fires at least six shots into the unarmed teen walks free.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Ferguson braces again after a man shot down by police. But this time, the man shot down, Tyrone Harris,
first opens fire on undercover cops. Harris`s father says the police are lying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gunshots ring out on the streets of Ferguson on the one-year anniversary of Michael Brown`s death. Anger bubbled over.
Violence then mirroring violence now, one year later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Santa Maria, California. An illegal immigrant released on probation sexually assaults a lady Air Force vet, then beats her to
death with a hammer in her own home. Forensics show she fights to the finish.
I wish I could say the same thing for Santa Barbara County judges and prosecutors. The illegal immigrant, Victor Ramirez, already charged with
ag assault, attempted rape, illegal drugs, carrying a dagger. They`re all felonies, but Santa Barbara county judges and prosecutors downgraded all to
misdemeanor, and they let him walk free.
Tonight, it takes the death of Marilyn Pharis to get their attention, this on the heels of the horrific shooting death of Kathryn Steinle by another
illegal immigrant that should have already been booted home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The murder of Marilyn Pharis was unspeakably brutal. Police say two men broke into her home while she was sleeping, beat her
over the head with a hammer, sexually assaulted and then murdered her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Jacob Lake, Arizona, a 5-year-old little boy seemingly vanishes into thin air on a camping trip with Mom, Dad, family and friends.
Mommy says she sees 5-year-old Jerold (ph), described as 3-foot-6, 35 pounds, brown eyes, light, light brown hair, chasing grasshoppers at the
edge of the forest. Chasing grasshoppers. I mean, how fast can they go? Exactly how does this child go missing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arizona police are desperately searching for a missing 5-year-old boy who vanished from a campground. Police say Jerold Williams
was playing with his mother about 100 to 200 yards from other family members at the campsite when he began chasing grasshoppers. That`s when
authorities say the mother lost sight of Jerold. Where is Jerold Williams?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, Ferguson braces again after another man shot down by police. But this time, the man shot down, Tyrone Harris,
first opens fire on undercover cops. Now, Harris`s father says the cops are all lying.
Let`s take a look at what was caught on video. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a crime scene! Back up! Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the man some help!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still alive!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the man some help! Get him some help now! He`s alive, man!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back it up!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not resist! Do not resist! Hands behind your back! You are under arrest!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, according to police in Ferguson, they say he opened fire on undercover officers, but let me make clear the undercover officers had
their lights flashing. They were in a car with police lights flashing, even though they apparently did not have on police uniforms.
On the scene, CNN`s Sara Sidner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are saying in very clear terms that these were criminals, not protesters. The St. Louis County police chief
came out and was very, very, very clear about that, saying that the protesters were protesting, and these folks had nothing to do with that.
We`re a few hundred yards down the street from where the protests were, standing in front of the police. But what we`re seeing here is what people
felt was a culmination of what was a very peaceful week and weekend of events commemorating Mike Brown, but moreso talking about the movement...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:18]GRACE: Now, that is not what Tyrone Harris`s father says. He says that Harris was there for the protest, for the vigil regarding Michael
Brown. But that`s not what police are saying.
Let`s get some clarification. But first, I want to show you a long version of what happened, and it`s caught, apparently, on cell phone video.
Ferguson bracing after a man shot by police. This at the one-year anniversary of the death of Michael Brown, just 18 years old. You are
seeing...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back it up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still (EXPLETIVE DELETED) alive!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not resist! Do not resist! Hands behind your back! You are under arrest!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up! Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a crime scene! Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get him some help! Get him some help!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, you are seeing video of what happened at the time of this last shooting there in Ferguson.
Colin Jeffery is news director at KTRS. Colin, what do we know? Because the police are telling a very different story from what Harris`s father is
telling.
COLIN JEFFERY, KTRS (via telephone): Well, thanks a lot for having me, Nancy. We do know there was a protest. And that was actually starting to
-- before any shots were fired, it was starting to wind down. It was later at night. There had been some severe storms that moved through. It was
hot and humid, not really weather people want to be out in for a long time.
But what they were noticing is this road is lined with strip malls. And shortly before this shooting, there had been one of these stores that was
broken into. So police were concerned as to who was lining up along the side of the road. And the police say that this shooting actually began
between two groups of people that didn`t involve police, but police were in the area to try and protect those businesses.
GRACE: OK, let`s take a look at the police undercover vehicle again, please, Justin. For those of you just joining us, Ferguson now bracing
after another man shot by police.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Randy Kessler, Atlanta, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney.
Now, according to the police, he, Harris, opened fire, Tyrone Harris opens fire on police. Number one, if this was a peaceful vigil to remember
Michael Brown, an unarmed teen shot down on the way to his grandmother`s house, that opened up a whole can of worms in Ferguson -- if this is a
peaceful vigil, what is Tyrone Harris doing opening fire on police?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s what the police are saying, but that`s not what all the witnesses are saying. We got to see what all
the evidence is. Let`s not rush to judgment. Let`s see what the facts are, what the evidence is, what the witnesses say. This story may be
completely different than what the police are saying it is.
GRACE: Hold on. Let`s not rush to judgment? Again, if you could look at your monitor, Randy Kessler...
KESSLER: I`m looking right at it.
GRACE: Now, clearly, in the Michael Brown incident, police were wrong. But I want to see the police vehicle all shot up. Now, the father is
claiming in local interviews that police are not telling the truth, that`s not what happened.
But clearly, can`t you see, Alex Sanchez, the police vehicle is shot up. Now, when a man is shooting at the police, they have a right to fire back.
Are you arguing about that, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I`m not arguing about that, but I`m going to ask the same question that I would ask in any other case, in any
other city. What is the evidence linking this fellow to the crime? Did they find a gun on him? Is there a link between the gun and the shooting?
Are there eyewitnesses? What about videotape? There was cameras and videotapes and still photographs everywhere.
I want to know all the evidence before I`m prepared to make any type of a judgment about this. And you should be doing the same thing.
GRACE: Well, I`ve reviewed all the facts, and I`ve been listening to every single thing I`m hearing.
Colin Jeffery, news director, KTRS, it`s my understanding that the gun that was fired on police was a stolen gun?
CASAREZ: Yes, they said they found a gun at the scene. Again, they didn`t say they found it on his person at the time, but they found it at the
scene. It was a stolen .9-millimeter handgun that had been reported stolen in 2014.
GRACE: OK, tell me what links this young man, 18-year-old Tyrone Harris, to shooting at the cops. Why do we think it was him? That`s a legitimate
question by the defense attorneys.
CASAREZ: Well, they believe it was him because these police say they were -- they were chasing someone. When the police became involved in this,
they say shots had already been exchanged between these groups of people. And they happened to see some -- or at least Tyrone, they say, running
away.
[20:10:02]Now, the question has been raised by lawmakers in the area, why did they just pursue one suspect? If they say there were as many as six
people shooting guns, why did they just pursue one suspect?
GRACE: Well, hold on. Hold on just a moment. Colin Jeffery, KTRS, it`s my understanding there have been five other arrests made. So I don`t
believe that they just pursued one other person. Naming one other person as the shooter, I think you may be right about that, Colin Jeffery.
Now, there were five other people arrested from what we are understanding tonight. I want to look one more time and see what we can glean. Now, in
order to believe the defense attorneys, Randy Kessler and Alex Sanchez, you must disbelieve the police officers.
Now, granted, they were undercover. They did not have on their uniforms. But according to reports, they had their flashing lights going. Take a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... explaining to them their rights, and we just want to be as patient as possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Message to those who are looting...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that gunfire?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take cover! Take cover!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Ferguson is trying to have a peaceful remembrance of Michael Brown, now a year later after the Ferguson shooting incident, and this is
what happens, Ferguson bracing after another man shot by police. But unlike the Michael Brown shooting, according to police, this man, Tyrone
Harris, came at them with a gun.
Colin Jeffery, KTRS -- Justin, please re-rack up the long version again and let me see what I can glean from it.
Tonight, the father of Tyrone Harris, in local interviews, saying the cops are not telling the truth. With me, Cedric Alexander. Dr. Alexander, CNN
law enforcement analyst. Weigh in, Cedric. Oh, hold on! I want to hear this. Hold on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the man some help! Get him some help now! He`s alive, man! You know he`s still alive!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still alive!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up! Do not resist! Do not resist! Hands behind your back! You are under arrest!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up! Back up! This is a crime scene! Back up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get him some help!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Who`s telling the truth, Tyrone Harris`s father in local interviews or the police? You`re seeing video from Twitter search (INAUDIBLE) What
about it, Dr. Alexander?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, we`ve got to put this in some context. First of all, you had a situation out there,
peaceful demonstrators who were making an attempt to exercise their constitutional rights. And somewhere along the way, you had a group of
individuals, as well, too, who obviously did not come there with the same intent.
Somewhere along the way a little bit further, you had this very separate shooting that occurred, where this young man has been -- reportedly shot at
police vehicle. And certainly, we can see that from the footage that you have shown. And officers returned fire, striking him.
It`s my understanding that he`s still in recovery there in St. Louis. But I`m going to tell you, people who want to remember Michael Brown certainly
have a right to do so.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:02]GRACE: An illegal immigrant released on probation sexually assaults a lady Air Force vet, then beats her to death with a hammer in her
own home, forensics showing she fights to the finish.
I wish I could say the same for the Santa Barbara County judges and prosecutors. The illegal immigrant, Victor Ramirez, already charged with
aggravated assault, attempted rape, illegal drugs, and carrying a dagger, of all things. All of those are felonies, but Santa Barbara county judges
and prosecutors downgraded them all to misdemeanors and let this guy walk free.
So tonight, does it take the death of Marilyn Pharis to get their attention? All of this on the heels of the horrific shooting death of
Kathryn Steinle by another illegal immigrant that should have already been booted home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marilyn Pharis was murdered by, police say, two men.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Allegedly broke into her home, beat her with a hammer, died days later at a hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the suspects is an undocumented immigrant with a long arrest history.
DONALD TRUMP (R-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want people to come into the country, but they have to do it through the legal process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to investigative reporter with 24/7 news, Joe Gomez joining us. I can`t believe it, Joe, another illegal immigrant who has
already been through the system, all right? This is not somebody that wants to work and have a good life for him and his family. This is a guy
that is here illegally, that has already been charged with aggravated assault.
I`m talking about Victor Ramirez. He`s already been charged with attempted rape. He`s already been charged with illegal drugs and carrying a dagger.
This is on two occasions, all right, on two occasions leading up to the murder of this lady Air Force vet, and judges and prosecutors let him go.
They downgrade it to misdemeanors.
[20:20:04]Why is he here?
JOE GOMEZ, 24/7 NEWS (via telephone): It`s incredible, Nancy! The man was on probation. He was in the country illegally. Victor Ramirez had a long
rap sheet, as you pointed out, multiple felony arrests for drugs reduced down to misdemeanors, had prior arrests involving an assault.
Here he is, walking the streets of America. And this wonderful Air Force vet goes to sleep at her home after working the night shift. She thinks
she`s going to have a nice sleep after working hard for her country, but she gets woken up at 9:30 in the morning, Nancy, and this illegal immigrant
with an accomplice allegedly beats this woman with a claw hammer, then allegedly rapes her, murders this poor woman who served her country and
takes off. Now he`s arrested (INAUDIBLE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They`re sending people that have lots of problems, and they`re bringing those problems with us (sic). They`re bringing drugs. They`re
bringing crime. They`re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
We have border security that doesn`t exist, and it`s not because of our incredible border folks. I mean, they can do the job. And we can build a
wall. And by the way, Mexico can pay for the wall, just so you understand. You know, all of these guys say, Oh, they`ll never pay. Of course, they`ll
pay! You have the right guy negotiating that, they`ll pay. They`re making a fortune.
And I have a lot of respect for Mexico, by the way. A lot of people said, Oh, he doesn`t like -- I love Mexico. And I love the Mexican people. I`ve
had thousands of Mexicans working for me. I sell apartments for millions of dollars to people from Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:44]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is a national issue. I think it starts in Washington, D.C., with this administration that we see and their
policies. I am not remiss to say that from Washington, D.C., to Sacramento, there`s a blood trail into the bedroom of Marilyn Pharis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you see the police chief, and he`s not holding back. And why should he? He has arrested this particular illegal immigrant multiple
times. And it all culminates in the murder of this unarmed lady Air Force vet, Marilyn Pharis, asleep in her own bed when this illegal immigrant and
another break into her home. They both rape her. And then they murder her, beating her to death with a hammer.
What`s so disturbing is that this is on the heels of the horrific Kathryn Steinle incident. Kathryn Steinle, a gorgeous young woman, walking along
with her father when an illegal immigrant attacks her, murders her with a stolen gun, a stolen gun belonging to a fed.
But that wasn`t enough. Again, it happens. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was fighting, gasping for every breath. And she fought right up to the end. I wouldn`t expect anything less from her. I
have a little solace that I was with her, but I also have the overwhelming grief of a father at the moment that she was shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was evil, evil...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to go out to Amber Smith, senior military adviser with Concerned Veterans for America. Amber, I don`t understand how this keeps
happening. And you`ve even got the local police chief up in arms because judges and prosecutors are doing nothing to stop this. They`re pleading it
down to misdemeanors so this guy can stay in our country. For what?
AMBER SMITH, CONCERNED VETERANS FOR AMERICA: Yes, I`m absolutely disgusted by this. How many more Americans have to die before our lawmakers start
taking this immigration crisis that`s going on in our nation right now seriously and they say, Enough is enough, that ICE stop selectively
enforcing the law and picking and choosing who gets deported and when, and is really not collaboratively working with local law enforcements, which
then ends up with them having their hands tied behind their back with what you mentioned about their charges being pleaded down to misdemeanors.
And then they`re walking free on our streets again. And as we`ve seen, multiple Americans are dying because of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So I was out there, and I was taking tremendous abuse -- unbelievable abuse, actually. And people said, Would you apologize? Would
you apologize? And then there were tremendous crimes that were being noted after my speech. And then you had magnificent Kate from San Francisco
killed by an illegal immigrant who was forced across the border, back to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The murder of Marilyn Ferris was unspeakably brutal. Police say two men broke into her home while she was sleeping, beat her
over the head with a hammer, sexually assaulted, and then murdered her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family of 64-year-old Marilyn Ferris says she died from a coronary embolism while being treated in Marian regional medical
center following her alleged physical and sexual attack inside her home while she slept on July the 24th. Two men have been identified as suspects
in the case. Investigators say Victor Martinez Ramirez is an undocumented illegal immigrant with prior criminal convictions, including misdemeanor
battery. Santa Maria Police confirm Martinez was arrested more than a week before the alleged Ferris assault on drug and weapons charges, but then
released from custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This lady Air Force vet wakes up in the middle of the night, with these two thugs standing over her. They both attack her sexually, and then
beat her dead with a hammer. They, particularly I`m talking about Ramirez, illegal immigrants. And when I say illegal immigrants, I don`t mean
they`re here working, trying to support their families. I`m talking about with felony arrests. And I want to give you two phone numbers you might
need. The local district attorney`s office that pled down his other felonies, which was an attempted rape, carrying drugs, carrying a dagger,
805-568-2300.
[20:35:00]
Let them know what you think about this. And then, don`t let the judge off. The judge at the superior courthouse is 805-614-6688.
Unleash the lawyers. Randy Kessler and Alex Sanchez. First to you, Kessler. Isn`t it true that when you have a repeat offender, and that is
determined by a fingerprint, all right, because when you`re booked in over and over and over, they always print you, and you`re matched up, regardless
of what name you give the police, they have your fingerprint. And you are always, typically, routed back to the same judge that you`ve been to for
your last attempted rape, for your last drug arrest, for your last carrying a dagger.
So the judge who allows this to be pled down, and I`m not letting the prosecutor off either, but the judge sees the rap sheet. They see all the
arrests. They see that they`re an illegal immigrant. And they allow it to happen. In fact, in one of these cases, a guy didn`t even plead guilty.
He got to do a no-contest. He did an Alford. They didn`t even make him admit guilt, Kessler. So this judge, and we have called them all day into
the night, and that courthouse at Santa Maria won`t give up who the judge is that did this. What about it?
KESSLER: Well, what about it? The judge has to defer a lot to the prosecution. The prosecutor`s office, like when you were in the
prosecutor`s office, knows the facts and makes the best determination. You`re not trying to put people away just because that`s your job. You`re
trying to figure out what the right thing to do in each case is.
GRACE: That`s true.
KESSLER: The prosecutor makes a recommendation. The prosecutor made a recommendation. The judge is going to give that a lot of deference. You
can`t put it all on the judge.
GRACE: It sounds like a gnat flying around my head when you`re saying all that.
KESSLER: A truthful gnat.
GRACE: Sanchez, that was all deflect, deflect, deflect. Because my question was---
KESSLER: Okay.
GRACE: And this is simple SOP. Sanchez. Sanchez. You`re Kessler. Sanchez, isn`t this true, and this is nuts and bolts, that the same
defendant typically goes back to the judge, the original judge who heard their first defense. So whoever keeps letting this guy off, this Ramirez,
is probably the same judge that heard his very first felony case.
SANCHEZ: I don`t necessarily know that`s true, certainly not in every jurisdiction, but you`re unfairly tarnishing the D.A. as well as the judge.
Just as Kessler says, they make an independent determination on each case, whether or not charges should be reduced. Let me tell you something, if
they decided to go forward and prosecute him to the full extent of the law and treat him differently than citizens, they would be violating his United
States constitutional rights, because they`re treating him differently than other people.
GRACE: Okay, just No. 1, he is not a United States citizen. No. 1. I want to go back to Matt Zarrell. Matt, could you please explain to Kessler
and Sanchez, who are both very well-respected defense attorneys, why they`re wrong. Give me the facts, Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: Okay, so he was arrested. We have got two big arrests. One in May of last year. He was charged with felony assault with the intent to
commit sexual assault, and felony possession of a controlled substance. Both of those were replaced by misdemeanors. Now, I.C.E., Immigration and
Customs, they put in the detainer. They wanted him, they wanted to deport him. But because the charges were reduced to a misdemeanor, they were
forced to relinquish that detainer. It doesn`t apply if there`s no felony conviction.
Then, just days before the murder, just days before the murder, he is arrested on two more charges, including possessing a concealed dagger or
similar weapon, and possession of drug paraphernalia. As part of a plea deal, he pled nolo, no contest, he got 30 days in jail. But wait, Nancy,
he didn`t just get 30 days in jail. The judge delayed his 30-day jail sentence for three months. He doesn`t have to serve it until the end of
October. He was released from jail.
GRACE: Wait, stop, Matt Zarrell. So this last judge, who the Santa Maria courthouse won`t give up the name, not only did he let him off the hook on
a felony, which would have resulted with I.C.E. taking him back to where he came from, but it`s kind of like a layaway plan. Do you remember that,
Matt? Where you could put a little money on something every month, when I worked at Sears Roebuck, we did it all the time. And then at the end when
you finished paying for it, then you get to take home the sweater for Christmas. So, they sentence him, and they`re going to give him some jail
time, 30 days, but they go, oh, but you know what, you can come back in October. And in the meantime, he kills Marilyn. Is that how it goes,
Matt?
ZARRELL: Literally, four days after he`s released is when the attack on Marilyn Ferris took place.
GRACE: Um, I want to go to Amber Smith, senior military adviser with Concerned Vets for America. This victim, Marilyn Ferris, fought until the
bitter end. We can see that she fought.
[20:40:00]
What I don`t understand is why. We don`t send these people back. I.C.E. is there. They`re there to send them home. They want to send them home.
But as long as judges and prosecutors lower the charges from felonies of attempted rape, drugs, carrying a dagger, down to misdemeanors, and put the
criminals on a layaway plan, it`s never going to happen.
AMBER SMITH, MILITARY ADVISER: No, this is a prime example of a failed bureaucracy that is unable to do their job, because of the very many layers
of bureaucracy in what we see in all federal agencies. But the fact that I.C.E. isn`t doing their job there, I know they did issue the immigration
detainer once for one of the times he was arrested, but not every time he was arrested and charged with a felony. So the fact that they are going to
this kind of selective enforcement and picking and choosing when they want to apply the law and to who is an absolute disgrace. Where`s the
transparency and oversight to this agency? Who is going to be held accountable for them not doing their job?
GRACE: Gomez, investigative reporter, 24/7 News, this was sent to I.C.E., but I.C.E. couldn`t act, because the prosecution`s judge lowered it down to
a misdemeanor. And when they do that, I.C.E. is -- it`s against the law for I.C.E. to deport these people.
GOMEZ: Well, this guy, obviously, had a long rap sheet, Nancy. I don`t know why they lowered it down to a misdemeanor, but perhaps the fault lay
with the judge, perhaps the fault lay with the criminal justice system in this particular county. Clearly this guy was a threat. He was left out on
the streets. We know that now. This Air Force vet, this woman served her country, Nancy, she served her country, risked her life for her country.
She is owed a good night`s sleep, and she can`t even have that, because an illegal immigrant marched into her home, allegedly.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:10]
GRACE: Live, Jacob Lake, a 5-year-old little boy seemingly vanishes into thin air on a camping trip. He`s with mommy, daddy, the family, friends.
Mommy says she sees 5-year-old Jerold, he`s described as 3`6, little bitty boy, 35 pounds, brown eyes, light, light brown hair, chasing grasshoppers
at the edge of the forest. Now, how fast do grasshoppers go? How, exactly, does this child go missing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say 5-year-old Jerold Williams was at an Arizona camp site with his mother and 15 to 20 family members when he began chasing
grasshoppers about 100 to 200 yards away from the campground. The family went into a panic when Jerold`s mother lost sight of him and immediately
began searching. Police were called and searched the area, but have not turned up any sign of the boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This 5-year-old little boy is on a camping trip with family and friends. There`s about 20 of them there, and mommy is with them, and she
says he`s chasing grasshoppers at the edge of the forest, and then he vanishes. How does that happen? Josh Freeman with us from KAZM. Josh,
what do we know?
JOSH FREEMAN, KAZM: Well, we know that the sheriff`s office still has plenty of volunteers out searching today. They`ve been searching since
Thursday afternoon. Just as a parent of a 5-year-old boy myself, I know that when you`re in a large group, especially with family and friends,
sometimes you have the tendency to assume that everybody is watching out for everybody`s kids, and it can be easy at times for a child to slip
through the cracks, so to speak.
GRACE: Well, to my understanding, Josh, KAZM, the mother was with him alone at the time that he goes missing. That they had wandered away from
the camp site, and he was chasing grasshoppers. Is that not right?
FREEMAN: Yes, they were about, between 100 and 200 yards away from the main camp site, where the group was camped, and that`s, you know, when he
went missing.
GRACE: So, what you first said, Josh, is that when you`re in a group, I understand that, everybody else thinks that somebody else has the baby, and
it turns out that nobody has the baby. But in this particular circumstance, there are about 20 individuals out camping, and mom and 5-
year-old go off playing. That`s almost the length of a football field, isn`t it? And she says that he was chasing grasshoppers, and somehow
vanished. Hold on, just a moment. Josh Freeman, KAZN, joining me right now is Gerry Blair from the command post, spokesperson with the sheriff`s
office. Jerry, thanks for being with us. Tell us what`s happening with the search?
GERRY BLAIR, SPOKESMAN: You know, we`re in day five of the search, and we have had an overwhelming response from the community of Colorado City. On
Saturday and Sunday, we had more than 300 spontaneous volunteers that were out there alongside the professional search and rescue groups, and doing
everything in their power to try to locate young Jerold.
GRACE: Tell me about the search. I understand that you`ve got horses, you`ve got canines, ATVs, shoulder-to-shoulder foot searches. You`re
seeing photos from the St. George News right now -- and still nothing?
BLAIR: No, and it`s quite frustrating, and as you know, Nancy, we always - - when we have a missing child, we run two parallel investigations. We have that most important physical search, trying to find that child and
reunite him with his family. And we also have that parallel criminal investigation, and that is focused on determining whether or not there was
any foul play or if there was possibly an abduction. So at this point in the investigation, we see nothing that would indicate foul play or an
abduction.
[20:50:00]
And it seems like an unfortunate case where young Jerold was headed back towards the camp site, mom lost sight of him, just for a few moments, when
she found that he had vanished, everybody started looking for him. And here we are in day five and we still have not located him.
GRACE: OK. Gerry Blair, spokesperson for the sheriff`s office, no offense, Mr. Blair, because I know you`re out giving blood and guts along
with all of your team and volunteers, that story doesn`t make sense to me. How can you be watching your child one moment, and the next moment, the
child disappears. I don`t understand that. Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klass Kids Foundation, it may make sense to you. What do you
think?
KLAAS: It doesn`t make sense to me. One of your previous guests said, what he did is he disappeared without a sight. I believe that they need to
pursue the criminal investigation, because like you said, Nancy, this doesn`t make any sense. Unless, of course, he was taken off by an animal
or perhaps he fell down a mine shaft. I think either way, they would have discovered some traces of him at this point.
GRACE: Or, or, unless the mom didn`t have eye contact for a little bit longer than just for a moment, and somehow he goes missing. Everybody,
take a look at Jerold. 800-338-7888. Also, the search for a missing subway iron worker known as the second avenue Sinatra. Gary Russo last
seen midnight, July 28th, Howard Beach home. Look at this guy! He makes national headlines singing Sinatra at a subway construction site.
Everybody coming there at lunchtime to hear him sing. He`s missing! Tip line, 800-577-TIPS.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arizona police are desperately searching for a missing 5-year-old boy who vanished from a campground. Police say Jerold Williams
was playing with his mother about 100 to 200 yards from other family members at the camp site when he began chasing grasshoppers. That`s when
authorities say the mother lost sight of Jerold. Where is Jerold Williams?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s not making sense to me. Earlier, Gerry Blair, spokesperson for the sheriff`s office told us that there are animals in the area. To
Dr. Gray Stafford, director of conservation at Wild Life World Zoo, thanks for being with us. What are the animals in that area? And are they now
used to people being around, so they would not attack?
DR. GRAY STAFFORD, WILD LIFE WORLD ZOO: Nancy, that`s a great question. This is a very remote part of the state of Arizona. Very few people
actually get to this part where this young boy went missing, where you`re going to have mountain lion, you`ll have coyote, bobcat, and even the
occasional black bear. The good news is that those animals are all pretty wild, because there are so few people that visit this part of the state,
those animals are probably pretty wary of any people that are there.
GRACE: So it`s hard for me to imagine a coyote being wary of a little boy, he`s only 3 feet tall, especially when he`s got his buddies with him. But
if you say so, you`re telling me coyotes would be wary of a 3-year-old little boy that weighs 36 pounds?
STAFFORD: Well, maybe -- certainly not in the initial timeframe when he went missing, when he has got energy and the elements haven`t set in and
he`s not tired or fatigued. But certainly as the search wears on, then perhaps those animals may be more of a factor in why he`s not been found
yet.
GRACE: To Dr. Terry Lyles, psychologist, and stress crisis management coach, joining me out of Miami, Dr. Lyles, great to have you with us. You
know, when you are under intense emotional stress like your child gets lost, I think it`s very easy for you to blur the amount of time since you
last had your eyes on them.
LYLES: Absolutely. And the distance. You mentioned a football field. They said 100 to 200 yards. A football field is 100 yards. So if it were
two football fields, that would be 200 yards. And if he`s unsupervised, what could have happened? I think the time lapse was greater than we
think. Like you said, it really doesn`t make sense. There should have been some tracking, there should have been some evidence somewhere, a piece
of clothing, blood, something, you know, without being grotesque. But, I don`t know, the story just sounds, you know, interesting to me. And I
think they`re going to have to keep going.
GRACE: With me, Dr. Terry Lyles out of Miami. Let`s remember, American hero, Louisiana police officer, Thomas LaValley, just 29, killed in the
line of duty. Served Shreveport police, a Northwestern State grad. Worked as a TV news photographer before law enforcement. Loved the outdoors, New
Orleans Saints, Cat, Drew. Parents, Jaclyn and Joseph. Brother, Alexander. Sisters, Kimberly and Andrea. Thomas LaValley, American hero.
A special good night from our New York friends, Antoinette, Monique, and Nia. Aren`t they beautiful? Thanks to all of my guests tonight, but
especially you, for being with us, inviting us into your home. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp
Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
