Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Josh Duggar Caught in AshleyMadison.com Hack. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired August 20, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live. The wildly popular TLC reality show seen here, "19 Kids and Counting," featuring the ultra-
religious Duggar family, in a tailspin. One of the Duggars, Josh Duggar, now 27 with three children of his own, revealed addicted to porn, the
Ashley Madison wife-swapping sex Web site and a total double life!
Bombshell tonight. The house of cards crashing down, this after Duggar accused of molesting young girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fresh fallout from that massive data leak by hackers who targeted the Web site AshleyMadison.com.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The site devoted to having an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are reports now that conservative reality TV star Josh Duggar had two accounts, paying nearly $1,000 over two years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I have secretly been viewing pornography on the Internet and I became unfaithful to my wife."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay tuned and keep watching.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video from ABC`s "GMA" and "19 Kids and Counting."
And Concord, New Hampshire, a young teen girl victim breaks down in tears describing an elite prep school rape, part of a virginity-taking contest
where male students keep score, written on walls behind washers and dryers with the names of their victims. In the last hours, damning evidence from
the witness stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I was raped. I was violated in so many ways. Of course, I was traumatized. I`m sorry. I was clouded because I was
traumatized in this retelling."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Bonita Springs, Florida. New details emerge tonight in the mystery surrounding the murder of a gorgeous young doctor, mother of
two, Dr. Teresa Sievers murdered in her upscale Florida home while Sievers`s husband and two little daughters out of town. Police back on the
scene where Sievers brutally killed, as crime scene investigators take saliva from the two family pets. To compare to what? Is there saliva on
Dr. Sievers`s body?
Tonight, we confirm Sievers`s husband`s blue minivan still in police custody. Why? Police now focusing on Dr. Sievers`s home security system
and motion sensors around the home. Did someone trick her security system?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. We go live. The wildly popular TLC reality show seen here, "19 Kids and Counting" -- it features the ultra-religious Duggar
family -- in a tailspin after Josh Duggar, 27, three children of his own, reveals he`s addicted to porn and the Ashley Madison wife-swapping sex Web
site, a total double life?
Bombshell tonight. The house of cards crashing down, this after Josh Duggar accused of molesting young girls. Well, it`s a tailspin.
Straight out to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor with the Dailymail.com. I`m looking at the statement that Josh Duggar gave, where he admits to
being unfaithful to his wife, being addicted to pornography, being a hypocrite. But a hypocrite is not a felony. This is on the heels of being
accused of sex with young girls. That`s child molestation.
How did this all come about, Candace?
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Oh, it`s just unbelievable, Nancy. You know, the whole flap about Ashley Madison -- it`s the cheating
Web site. It`s where spouses go to find somebody else who -- some other spouse who wants to cheat.
And all of these names have come out -- 39 million people have signed up for Ashley Madison. One of those names, it was determined, was Josh
Duggar.
And the things that he has listed on the Web site as the things that he wants to do with women, the kind of women he wants -- he is married. And
Nancy, he has four children. His wife just had a baby a few weeks ago. So this is an incredible, incredible drama for the family.
GRACE: That is from Gawker`s Web site, who originally reported this information. CNN is not independently confirming some of these details
reported by Gawker.
[20:05:07]Candace Trunzo, you`re talking about -- everybody, you`re seeing video from "19 Kids and Counting," wildly popular show on TLC with the
ultra-religious Duggar family. So now I understand Josh Duggar has four children. I hadn`t kept up with that.
OK, Candace, let me get back to this hack, this alleged hack of the Ashley Madison Web site. It`s apparently where married people hook up with sex
partners, no strings attached -- as if there is any such thing.
Now, what are you telling me about the hack on Ashley Madison`s Web site? What does that have to do with the Duggar family?
TRUNZO: Well, the hack is producing a lot of names. There are a lot of names that are floating out there. People are checking up on these names
to see if they`re corporate honchos, if they`re network stars, whatever.
And one of those names and one of those investigations resulted in finding that Josh Duggar had signed up. He had two accounts with Ashley Madison.
He had signed up first when he was in Maryland, before he was disgraced with these charges of molestation of young, you know, underage girls, and
then again, when he moved back home. So he has...
GRACE: OK, wa-wa-wa-wa-wa, wait! Candace, it`s like drinking from a fire hydrant. I can`t take it all in at once.
Chloe Melas, senior reporter from Hollywoodlife.com, also joining me, in addition to Trunzo with Dailymail.com. Chloe Melas, let me understand
this. So the Ashley Madison, married people, wife-swapping, husband- swapping, no strings attached Web site was hacked, like the Sony hack, and thousands and thousands of customers were outed. All these married people
cheating on their spouses through Ashley Madison are outed.
Now, what does that have to do exactly with Josh Duggar?
CHLOE MELAS, HOLLYWOODLIFE.COM: Well, it looks like Josh Duggar has cheated on his wife. He just released a statement saying that he`s very
sorry for cheating on his wife.
But he actually, Nancy, just omitted parts of that statement that said that he was addicted to pornography. It was just in there a few minutes ago,
and he`s now deleted that.
But he`s admitted to cheating on his wife. And he had two accounts. He spent over $1,000 with the Ashley Madison Web site. He actually terminated
those accounts for about $19 in May when this whole Josh Duggar scandal was unfolding with TLC.
And now we`re also hearing at Hollywoodlife.com that TLC has no interest now in doing spin-offs with his sisters. And when we reached out to TLC
for comment, they said, We don`t work with the Duggar family anymore.
GRACE: Yes, this is all the talk was swirling that there`s going to be a Duggar spin-off without Josh.
But hold on. Chloe Melas, you just said two accounts. I don`t understand that.
Let me go to our technology expert, Larry Fishelson with Dynalink. Larry - - everybody, you`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting."
Why would one person need two Ashley Madison accounts? I mean, if you`re going to cheat, isn`t one enough? Why do you need two?
LARRY FISHELSON, TECHNOLOGY EXPERT (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, there`s really no reason to have two. It`s -- you know, it...
GRACE: Is it hiding your identity?
FISHELSON: I`m assuming he`s probably trying to put two different profiles on there. But you know, at the end of the day, it`s the same thing.
GRACE: So I`m just wondering if that`s some attempt to hide your identity. Candace Trunzo, senior news editor, Dailymail.com. Candace, Chloe just
told me about the account, two separate accounts. He paid $900-something, almost $1,000 to have two Ashley Madison "cheat while you`re married"
accounts.
But where -- don`t you have to have an address and you have to identify who you really are?
TRUNZO: Well, yes, you have to pay for it. You have to use a credit card. And he did. And I think that`s certainly one of the reasons why the
investigation yielded his name because he had to use his name and he had to use -- he had to use his credit card.
Therefore -- and now he`s admitted -- he didn`t admit that he used Ashley Madison. He admitted that he cheated, which, you know, when you have --
you know, one and one equals two in this case.
GRACE: OK, there he is kissing his wife after she gave birth to one of their four children. But OK, I want to make sure that this really is Josh
Duggar, that it really is TLC star of "19 Kids and Counting" Josh Duggar on the Ashley Madison Web site.
He has just issued a statement that he has got a porn addiction, pornography addiction, has led a double life, has cheated on his wife.
But Chloe Melas, Hollywoodlife.com, don`t you -- I mean, I could go on there and say I`m Josh Duggar, right, and pay money and have a Web site.
But was it his credit card? And what address did he give?
[20:10:13]MELAS: All right, Nancy, here it is, the bombshell. It is Josh Duggar. It`s not alleged. It is because the credit card he used was
linked to the billing address of his grandmother`s home. And you don`t just release a statement saying that you cheated on your wife and you have
a porn addiction the day after it is revealed that you had two accounts on a cheating Web site for married people.
So the writing is on the wall, Nancy, and it looks as though he`s in a really, really bad situation.
GRACE: OK, I understand that on the Web site, you state what you`re looking for. Candace Trunzo, was that filled out, as well, on the Ashley
Madison Web site?
TRUNZO: Yes. He filled out, you know, his turn-ons. He wanted a muscular woman, a fit body, didn`t matter if she was tall or short, long hair or
short hair. But he wanted a naughty girl. He wanted a girl with a sense of humor, an aggressive kind of take charge girl.
And his sexual wish list was, you know, full of very specific things -- one-night stands, oral sex for the male, oral sex for the woman, sexual
massage, sex toys, just about everything you can think of.
GRACE: OK. All of this is coming from the Gawker, which is a Web site that, I guess, what, got ahold of the list from the hacker? Is that how it
happened, Candace? CNN is not independently confirming some of these details reported by Gawker.
TRUNZO: Yes, they got hold of the list, and they also had some inside information into, I believe, the e-mail address that he used.
GRACE: Ah.
TRUNZO: So I think that...
GRACE: So is that right, Fishelson? Is that right, Fishelson? Larry Fishelson, Dynalink Corp, I`m trying to keep up with Candace Trunzo. I`m
trying to determine is this really Josh Duggar? Is this...
(CROSSTALK)
FISHELSON: ... because all they have to really do here is see it`s from his IP address, his e-mail address, and it`s 100 percent there, unless he
tries to claim he wasn`t the one using his own computer and his own e-mail address. But obviously, we see here he was.
GRACE: Oh, that`s what I was getting at, Larry Fishelson, is, is this really Josh Duggar? Is it him? But it`s the credit card linking back to
his grandmother`s address.
And then as Chloe Melas points out, this is immediately after the allegations about Ashley Madison have set forth -- all of this is coming
from Gawker. It is the Web site that has obtained this information. CNN is not independently confirming some of these details reported by Gawker.
Candace Trunzo, you say that this married guy, TLC`s "19 Kids and Counting" star, wants a muscular woman with a fit body, naughty and aggressive.
That`s where you lost me. What came after that?
TRUNZO: OK. Well, I mean, the things on his sexual wish list, for example, were bubble baths for two, likes to give oral sex and receive oral
sex, someone I can teach and can teach me, kissing, cuddling, sharing fantasies and sex toys. Those are the things that were on his sexual wish
list.
And the kind of woman he wanted was someone who was hygienic and clean, disease-free, aggressive, likes to take charge, has some imagination, a
sense of humor, a naughty girl.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:17:48]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re the Duggars. Josh is our oldest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Documents reveal that Josh was 15 years old when he molested his 5-year-old sister.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to deal with those situations. You have to explain. You have to talk about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I brought hurt and reproach to my family, close friends and the fans of our show with my actions that happened when I was
14 to 15 years old."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, all of that has cracked wide open because as we go to air tonight, Josh Duggar, the star, one of the stars of TLC`s wildly popular
"19 Kids and Counting" -- and you`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC right now -- has been exposed and has issued a statement. "I have been the
biggest hypocrite ever. Espousing faith and family values, I secretly have been viewing pornography on the Internet. It has become a secret
addiction, and I became unfaithful to my wife."
This on the heels of a massive, monumental hack on the sex cheaters Web site, AshleyMadison.com, encouraging married people to have illicit
affairs, sex trysts with, quote, "no strings attached."
According to Gawker, Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com, Josh Duggar is one of those clients.
TRUNZO: Yes, he is. They broke the story last night. Gawker tells us that it was Josh Duggar who signed up for two Ashley Madison accounts. He
listed all of the things that he wanted to do with another woman. He wanted to cheat on his wife.
And now, you know, his -- this is, like, the second in a matter of months. This is the second time. And really, you know, prayers are not going --
he`s asked for our prayers. But prayers are -- he`s going to need a lot more than prayers right now because, you know, his wife has just had a
baby. They just had their fourth child. His parents are heartbroken, they say.
And he is -- you know, he`s been living a lie. And what goes on from now on, it`s really hard to say. They certainly don`t have a show. That`s
long gone. It`s hard to say exactly what`s going to happen with the Duggar family.
[20:20:09]GRACE: You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," joining me out of LA -- you know, his wife is gorgeous.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.
GRACE: She just had the fourth child, Candace Trunzo tells me. I don`t get it. She`s beautiful. They`re obviously having sex. They`ve already
got four children and they haven`t stopped yet.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I don`t understand it. He`s got this beautiful, gorgeous, trusting, loving wife. Why go to Ashley Madison for sex with a complete
stranger, asking for a muscular, fit body, a naughty girl, aggressive, use sex toys? I mean, please!
MARSHALL: Nancy, this story does not surprise me at all. This man is one of 19 children. It doesn`t surprise me that he`s not well.
Who was there in his family of origin to make him feel important, to prioritize him, to know what faithfulness is like, fidelity is like? His
family -- his parents` love was spread out over 19 kids, and he has just repeated that in his marriage. He`s not faithful to one woman. His energy
is now scattered out over all these anonymous women on the Internet.
GRACE: You know, Clark Goldband -- everybody, you`re seeing "19 Kids and Counting" from TLC. Now, they`re denying that there is a spin-off, but
word is there has been talk of a spin-off from "19 Kids and Counting."
On a different note, Clark Goldband, I understand that within minutes after Josh Duggar gives the one statement where he admits to a double life, an
addiction to pornography and cheating on his wife, they now alter the statement and give a new statement? What happened?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, this has changed minute by minute. I`m going to try to break this down for you.
The first statement that came out, this line is now no longer there. "I have secretly over the last several years been viewing pornography on the
Internet and this became a secret addiction."
Now, Nancy, that line just reads, "I have been unfaithful to my wife, as well." It also first read, "I brought hurt and reproach to my family,
close friends and the fans of our show with my actions. That happened when I was 14 to 15 years old and now I have rebroken that trust."
Nancy, the new statement no longer mentioning the ages 14 and 15 and rebreaking of trust. Both those phrases are now deleted.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:26:30]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being the husband, being the father that I need to be, setting that example for them is going to make a difference.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kids are very forgiving, so I`m not really afraid of making a lot of mistakes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. It`s not our goal to make mistakes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I am so ashamed of the double life that I have been living."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As we go to air tonight, the Duggars from the popular TV show "19 Kids and Counting" on TLC scrambling to delete a statement they just put on
the Internet. Where are their PR people, for Pete`s sake? You can`t delete anything off the Internet once you put it out there.
Here`s video from "19 Kids and Counting."
In the last hours, it all blows wide open for the Duggar family, Josh Duggar, on the heels of being accused of molesting young girls, is now
forced to give a statement on line regarding an Internet pornography addiction, cheating on his wife and more.
This as a hack of the Ashley Madison Web site uncovers thousands and thousands of married people trying to hook up sexually with other people,
no strings attached.
Another issue, Candace Trunzo, Dailymail.com, is their audience were people like them, or what they thought they were, family-oriented, religious,
believing in the values our country were founded on. And now it`s all blown wide open, this amid talks of a TLC "19 Kids and Counting" Duggar
spin-off.
You`re seeing "19 Kids" right now.
TRUNZO: Yes. There was supposed to be a spin-off of the two oldest daughters, Jill and Jenna.
GRACE: To Candace -- I assume this is from AshleyMadison.com and not "19 Kids and Counting."
OK, Candace Trunzo and Chloe Melas, what`s going to happen now? I`m sure - - OK, that`s enough Ashley Madison. Thanks, Liz in New York.
Candace Trunzo, Chloe Melas, let me ask you this. Are we looking at a divorce? First to you, Chloe Melas. And before that, before we get to the
divorce, Chloe, why the sudden trying to erase the admission that they posted on the Web site?
MELAS: Well, they definitely don`t have TLC handling their PR right now. We know that for a fact because when I reached out to TLC, they said, We
don`t work with the Duggars anymore.
They clearly don`t know what they`re doing. They`re deleting statements, where I`ve already screen-shotted it the moment that I saw it. So they`re
not being very smart about this. He needs a really good image consult and publicist right now...
GRACE: You know what? I don`t know what universe you`re living in, Chloe Melas, but an image consultant? OK, right now, he needs to be crawling on
his hands and his knees towards his wife.
And the whole bunch of the Duggars, if there`s any hope of them making a living off this reality show idea, it`s not going to happen, Trunzo. I
mean, an image consultant? It`s a little late for an image consultant, huh?
TRUNZO: Definitely. Definitely too late. They`re not going to be back on TV. There is no way that the Duggars are going to be back on TV. They`re
going to have to do something else to make a living.
They`ll probably going to send Josh off to get some kind of ridiculous treatment, the way they sent him off before when he was 14 and was accused
of and admitted to molesting his sisters and a baby-sitter. So there`s going to be something like that. And you know, their future really is
uncertain. You know, he changed that -- he changed that statement four times, Nancy, and the first time he said that he allowed Satan to build a
fortress no one ever knew about and then he took that down.
GRACE: Larry Fishelson, COO of Dynalink, how did the hack happen?
LARRY FISHELSON, TECHNOLOGY EXPERT: Nancy, it`s very, very difficult and sophisticated, but at the end of the day if you get in through the
firewall, if you go ahead and hack and be able to get the passwords or even send out what we call phishing e-mails, it`s possible and they can do it.
And we continue to see it and we`re still not set up for cyber security as we should be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:03] GRACE: Live, Concord, New Hampshire, a teen girl breaks down in tears describing an elite prep school rape. All part of a virginity-taking
contest where male students keep scores, written on the walls behind the washer and driers at the school of the names of their victims. In the last
hours, damning evidence from the witness stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had showed me some bite marks that she had on her, like around her nipple on her boobs. She was like look at this, this
is serious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tracy Caruso, joining us, co-host, "New Hampshire in the Morning," WZID.
Tracy, thank you for being with us. What a day. So we hear so much damning evidence, what happened?
TRACY CARUSO, CO-HOST, WZID RADIO: Nancy, it was a very emotional day. The morning started with the accuser taking the stand again. The alleged
victim, she broke down several times during cross examination. At one point they had to stop the questioning so that she could compose herself.
But she also seemed to fight back a bit during the questioning. She told the defense attorney that her testimony may have discrepancies because
things were cloudy, and then she defended the cloudy statement by saying that she had been traumatized, that of course things would be in her memory
bank different.
Now the defense was able to get her to admit her participation, though, Nancy. She admitted to lifting her arms to have the sweatshirt removed.
She admitted to lifting her hips to have her shorts removed and she admitted that she may have actually laughed during the encounter, but then
went on to defend that by saying it was nervous laughter. She didn`t want to come across as bitchy. But then she also reminded the court she still
told him no and she still told him stop.
GRACE: OK, Tracy Caruso, several things happened in court today. The alleged rape victim on the stand. This is an elite prep school where John
Kerry attended, Gary Trudeau, many members of Congress.
Here`s video posted of St. Paul`s School on YouTube. The bill for this school is nearly $60,000 a year per student. You send your children there,
you don`t expect your daughter to call you at midnight and say, mommy, I was raped.
Now several things happened in court today that helped and hurt both sides. The call that I just alluded to, Tracy Caruso, so the incident occurs. And
remember, the defense still says there was no sex. But the girl goes to the school nurse within 48 hours saying she might need Plan B, the morning
after pill, because she`s had sex. Then she goes on to the hospital after calling her mom at midnight saying, mom, I was sexually assaulted. The mom
races over to the school, takes her to the hospital.
This is something very damning for the defense, I think, Tracy Caruso. If a girl, a young girl her age has consensual sex, why call your mom and tell
her? Why would you do that?
CARUSO: Nancy --
GRACE: Unless she had been raped.
CARUSO: So many questions were raised today because not only was the accuser on the stand today, but there were several other witnesses. For
instance, the St. Paul nurse, she took the stand. Now she`s the one that the accuser went to a day or two after. She`s the one that administered
the Plan B emergency contraceptive, as you`ve mentioned. But she testified that this girl was anxious, she was teary, but this nurse said that the
girl told her the encounter was consensual.
GRACE: Absolutely. And that`s going to hurt the state.
Unleash the lawyers, Trinity Hundredmark and Robert Schalk.
OK, first to you, Schalk.
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now, Nancy, this case is going to cut both ways, as you indicated earlier. But the best defense here are the
text messages, the Facebook messaging and the fact that she admitted to the nurse that this was consensual and she admitted that to other friends, so
although the defense has admitted a sexual act, they don`t have to admit anything at this point in time. They`re going to see how the prosecution`s
case is going to play out and they`re going to use these text messages to their advantage.
GRACE: Yes. Another issue, Trinity Hundredmark, is that I know she said that to the nurse when asked directly, but then she calls her mom, says
that she`s been sexually assaulted and goes to the hospital and talks to police.
OK, after she`s had a minute to think about it. But the problem for the defense is not so much her e-mails back and forth, but the fact that the
hospital nurse says that there is a laceration in the vagina and the defense is claiming there was no sex at all.
[20:40:09] So if there`s no sex at all and that`s the defense, then why is this prep school boy-man writing her saying, hey, are you on the pill?
Why? If they didn`t have sex at all, why is he worried about whether she`s on the pill, Trinity?
TRINITY HUNDREDMARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, I definitely think that`s a weak part of the defense`s case, but there`s a lot of other sexual
conduct that could have gone on between the two. I mean I think she indicated that there was, you know, a certain amount of foreplay. Some of
that could have been rough.
GRACE: Put her up, please.
HUNDREDMARK: Could have given -- could have given, you know, lacerations.
GRACE: Hold on, hold on. Let`s follow this to its natural conclusion, OK? Can we agree on that?
HUNDREDMARK: Sure.
GRACE: You`re saying that while there`s not actual sex, i.e. rape, there was sex conduct -- contact. Then why, may I ask, would she need the pill,
Trinity? Did I miss something in high school health? Why would she -- he`d be worried was she on the pill if they didn`t have sex?
HUNDREDMARK: Listen, Nancy, they`re kids. They`re not always the smartest. I mean, you`re talking about a 15-year-old.
GRACE: Are you serious?
HUNDREDMARK: She may -- I am serious.
GRACE: That`s your comeback? OK.
HUNDREDMARK: When you`re -- when you`re in high school, you have no idea. She asked him to use a condom.
GRACE: This kid is going to Harvard, for Pete`s sake.
HUNDREDMARK: I would -- I would think she would know whether he used a condom or not.
GRACE: Put her up.
HUNDREDMARK: But she asked him that question?
GRACE: Did you hear -- did you hear the word Harvard? He`s -- he got into Harvard to study divinity of all things?
OK, let me go back to you, Tracy Caruso, so you`ve got -- I don`t recall her telling classmates she had consensual sex. That`s what Robert Schalk
just said. I didn`t hear that. I know the school nurse said she asked the girl, were you attacked and she said no. This is posted St. Paul`s on
YouTube. I don`t recall her telling other students she had consensual sex. Did that happen, Tracy?
CARUSO: Well, we did hear today from the alleged victim`s best friend. She took the stand and it was pretty graphic testimony, Nancy. It was
conversations that had happened before and after the alleged events. She explained --
GRACE: Did she ever say they had consensual sex? Just that one thing.
CARUSO: I don`t recall.
GRACE: OK. Well, there you have it, Schalk, there goes that argument right out the window. So do you see those underwears we`re showing? How
did his DNA, Schalk, get on her underwear? Could you explain that for me, Robert?
SCHALK: Well, that`s the benefit of being the defense attorney. You don`t have to explain anything at this point in time. You are -- you have to
opportunity to cross --
GRACE: I didn`t ask his defense attorney, I asked you. I asked you, Schalk.
SCHALK: Well, you know, Nancy, again, I don`t necessarily agree with the manner in which his lawyer is representing him and -- by denying a sex act
so I would have potentially conceded that there was consensual sex but that`s his problem at this point in time.
GRACE: And another thing, the victims right advocate, sex abuse lawyer Jeff Herman out of Boca, Jeff, just because she may have told other people,
hey, this guy is kind of cute, I`m going to have a date with him, so what? When you go on a date and you think somebody is cute, that means you sign
up to be raped or to have sex in the mechanical room of the building? Think about it. The mechanical room? That doesn`t sound like a date to
me.
JEFF HERMAN, VICTIMS RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Right, Nancy. I mean, being willing to kiss somebody certainly is not an invitation to rape. But you know, one
of the things that bothers me about this case is the fact that this was an open secret. The Senior Salute was known to be going on for decades. And
where were the school officials? They were silent. The prominent school alumni we hear about, silent. And that silence to these kids is a tacit
endorsement and they encourage behavior.
And so I want to know where were the school officials? These boys were getting points as part of a game to score with these girls. They called it
slaying the girls. And so I have yet to hear as to -- they`re saying all the right things now at the school. They`re saying we don`t condone this
activity. But they have known about this for --
GRACE: Yes. Well, weren`t they the ones painting over the names behind the washer-driers, Justin?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knocking it off as they went along.
GRACE: Marking them off as they went along.
Joining me right now, assistant professor at NYU School of Medicine, Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil.
Dr. Devi, question to you. When the doctor at the hospital, we believe, is saying that the doctor observes lacerations in and around the vagina of the
girl, what would that be? What is the doctor seeing?
DR. DEVI NAMPIAPARAMPIL, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, you worry about trauma. Trauma from a sexual act. I mean the other
thing that they didn`t mention is semen. So that`s another thing you would look for in a rape kit or rape evaluation.
[20:45:01] Now the thing here is that the timing is critical. So if this evaluation had been done within six hours, you might actually see more
sperm, sperm that are swimming, so that you`d know that something happened recently but at 48 hours you can start to see some degradation of the semen
and you might not be able to find it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A neighborhood on edge after this doctor and mother of two was found dead inside her Bonita Springs Home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m very scared for my safety.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who believes she may have heard the murder as it happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thinking that someone is going to come in and kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dr. Jeff Bradstreet and Bruce Hedendal both died within weeks of each other. Both doctors took a more natural approach to
healing, like Dr. Sievers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: New details emerging tonight in the mystery surrounding the death of a gorgeous young doctor. The mother of two. Also married. Dr. Theresa
Sievers.
Straight out, joining me on the scene is investigative reporter, Nicole Partin.
Nicole, what is the latest?
[20:50:10] NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Police are being very tightlipped about the investigation and have not released very much new
information. We do know, however that a hammer has been named as the murder weapon, and we also know that no robbery or rape has been confirmed.
GRACE: So the hammer, as the murder weapon, likely because the hammer`s either found or because of the nature of the wounds to Dr. Sievers. Now
I`m hearing no rape. No robbery. What about the car, Nicole?
PARTIN: Neighbors are telling us that that blue minivan, the one originally removed during the investigation, has not been returned to the
family home. As you can see, it is not in the driveway behind me. We`re also learning that that blue van belonged to Dr. Sievers` husband. And now
he is now driving the family car. Only now the family car has very dark tinted windows.
Neighbors also believe that Dr. Sievers` husband and two children have returned living at the home. They have seen him come and go. They`ve also
noticed that at night the blinds are open and the lights are on.
GRACE: With me, Bob Alexander, anchor with 92.5 FOX News. So the police still have the husband`s blue minivan? Why?
BOB ALEXANDER, ANCHOR, 92.5 FOX NEWS: Well, that minivan was collected, of course, shortly after this whole thing developed. And they took it off for
processing somewhere in an undisclosed location. They say that doctor -- Mark Sievers, rather, has been driving around in the white mini station
wagon that belonged to his wife and he was the one that always drove around in the minivan. She had her own vehicle so the question remains as to why
that van has not been returned as of yet. It`s been almost two months since this whole thing developed and still no minivan.
GRACE: The husband`s minivan, obviously still in police custody, and we learn tonight, saliva tests taken from the family dogs? Was there saliva
on Dr. Sievers` body?
"CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I do doesn`t give a lot of people the warm fuzzies. A lot of people don`t understand why I do what I do. The reality
is, any life is worth helping.
Today we`re going to be doing relationships.
I run a pre and post-release program at St. Clinton State Prison where the men in our program learn to understand what they did, why they did it,
where they need to go and how to stay the course.
So we`re going to start with healthy relationships, right?
It is a minimum of 24 months of hard work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People that want to change the way we`ve chosen to change.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supported people, yes?
They start to care about themselves. They start to care about the people they hurt. And then we move forward with life skills and setting them up
to succeed.
Oh, god.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man. Driving away from San Quentin. That`s amazing. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they get out, we follow them with support and assistance in reentering society.
We`ve got to get you a California I.D.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a new man with new thoughts, new beliefs, new goals. This is my second chance. I want to be part of the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hard work paid off, my friend.
They come out in a successful society safer. If they`ve stayed in touch with us, we actually have nobody go back to prison, and I`d like to think
that it will continue that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:06] GRACE: New details emerging in the brutal death of Dr. Theresa Sievers out of Florida.
To Michael Christian on the story, dog saliva samples taken from her pets?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, and hair also, Nancy. Now there are two dogs that live with the Sievers, one is a black medium sized
dogs, been described as looking like a mutt, and the other is a larger white dog, possibly a lab.
GRACE: Larry Fishelson with Dynalink, technology expert. Larry, can we determine when they flight was changed? Was she supposed to come back that
Sunday night and leave her family behind? Or was that a sudden decision? How can you tell?
FISHELSON: Very easy, Nancy. We can tell via the e-mail receipt of the exact time and date it was booked. And also, if we don`t have that, we can
get it from the airline and all the info is stored.
GRACE: And Dr. Devi, the murder weapon has been deemed to be the hammer. Have they linked that up to the injuries on the body? How do you do that?
How can you look at the body and tell it was a hammer attack?
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Well, you can look at the pattern of the injuries so the nature of the injuries and try to match them up. You can also try to tell
if the shape of the hammer matches. And they usually, most medical examiners take photographs. They use a ton of x-rays on the entire body
and then they can map out the trajectory of injuries as well.
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero Staff Sergeant Nathan Vacho, 29, Jonesville, Wisconsin, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, from a military family, a
licensed practical nurse, worked in the E.R. before his army medical career, parents Carol and John, sister Ashley, widow Amanda. Two
daughters.
Nathan Vacho, American hero.
Thanks to my guests, but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See
you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, goodnight, friend.
END
