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Nancy Grace
Suicide Pact or Murder?. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired August 25, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Fairhaven. Go ahead and do it. Do it, babe. Why haven`t you done it yet? You haven`t done
it? Well, get back in your truck and try again -- to kill yourself.
These are the tip of the iceberg, just some of the 1,000 texts honor student Michelle Carter sends her extremely sensitive young boyfriend, 18-
year-old Conrad Roy.
Bombshell tonight. After over 1,000 texts, plus e-mails, plus phone calls, she finally convinces the sensitive young high school grad to park
his pickup in the local K-Mart parking lot, turn on the ignition, inhale deeply until he dies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say Roy`s girlfriend, Michelle Carter, pushed him to take his life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the Fairhaven police report, Carter text-messaged Roy up until his death, writing things like...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You need to stop thinking about this and just do it because overturning always kills, overthinking."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Ogden, Utah, 32-year-old Natalie Peterson (ph) gets high, takes to the interstate on highly congested I-15, essentially turning
her Toyota into a deadly weapon, flying at high speeds the wrong way, directly into oncoming traffic. Your worst nightmare, Natalie Peterson
stoned, racing her SUV straight at you, and it all ends in a fiery crash, all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The car goes in circles on the interstate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The erratic wrong-way driver, all caught on dashcam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dragging the bumper and zig-zagging across multiple lanes of traffic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) she`s upside down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Concord, a young teen girl breaks down in tears on the stand describing an elite prep school rape, all part of a virginity-
taking contest where male students keep score. Written on the walls behind washers and dryers at the dorm are the names of their victims. In the last
hours, damning evidence from the witness stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was trying to be number one at sexual scoring at St. Paul`s school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that he never penetrated her. He tucked his penis back into his boxers...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when he tried to take the bra off, she put it back on, and it was a moment of, This shouldn`t go any further, type of
thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live, Fairhaven. Go ahead and do it. Do it, babe. Why haven`t you done it yet? You haven`t done it? Well, get back in your
truck and try again -- to kill yourself.
These are the tip of the iceberg, just some of over 1,000 texts this honor student, Michelle Carter, sends her extremely sensitive high school
boyfriend. After over 1,000 texts, plus e-mails, plus phone calls, Carter finally convinces -- convinces this guy, a very sensitive high school grad,
to park his pickup in the local K-Mart, turn on the ignition, and inhale deeply, monoxide, until his death.
Straight out to John DePetro, WPRO, joining us. So she is now looking at -- what is that puss on her face? Hold on! Back it up, Liz! What was
that all about? I don`t know if you have seen the shots of her, but -- OK, hold everything!
John DePetro, WPRO, what happened?
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO (via telephone): No, Nancy, she has -- she does have that type of demeanor of no remorse. Basically, it`s exactly as you
said. She -- Conrad was a troubled young boy. He had only met her on vacation. And the amount of pressure that Michelle Carter, insistent,
constant, telling him that this would be the best thing, that he needs to do it now -- it`s the type of pressure, Nancy -- I mean, there`s always
pressure in a relationship. Maybe someone wants to get engaged or...
GRACE: Wait a minute! Wa-wait! You`re just -- he`s just a boy, a boy! And when you say troubled, he had had a bout of depression, which is
extremely common in teen boys.
John joining me from WPRO, I want you and Rita Cosby to listen to some of the texts she sent this kid before he killed himself. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
[20:05:03]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You can`t think about it. You just have to do it. You said you were going to do it. Like, I don`t get why
you aren`t."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I don`t get it, either. I don`t know."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "So I guess you aren`t going to do it then. All that for nothing! I`m just confused. Like, you were so ready and
determined."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I`m going to eventually. I really don`t know what I`m waiting for, but I have everything lined up."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "No, you`re not, Conrad. Last night was it. You kept pushing it off, and you said you`ll do it, but you never do. It`s
always going to be that way if you don`t take action. You`re just making it harder on yourself by pushing it off. You just have to do it. Do you
want to do it now?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Is it too late? I don`t know. It`s already light outside. I`m going to go back to sleep. Love you. I`ll text you
tomorrow."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "No, it`s probably the best time now because everyone is sleeping. Just go somewhere in your truck, and no one is
really out there right now because it`s an awkward time. If you don`t do it now, you`re never going to do it. And you can say you`ll do it
tomorrow, but you probably won`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, whoa! Stop that just one moment! Unleash the lawyers, Jeff Gold, New York, Robin Ficker, defense attorney out of Washington, D.C.
First to you, Mr. Ficker. If this is not aiding and abetting in the death of this teen boy, I don`t know what is. Why shouldn`t she be
charged, Robin Ficker?
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She did not give him the means to kill himself. She gave him no drugs. She didn`t take drugs with him. She
didn`t buy the car. She didn`t buy the engine from which the monoxide emitted. They were not boyfriend/girlfriend. She had met him, if at all,
several years before. This was simply a free speech textual relationship.
GRACE: Free speech. Free speech. Well, let me remind you, Mr. Ficker, as you well know -- both you and Gold are both very experienced
lawyers -- that free speech in our country as written in our Constitution is not unfettered.
For instance, you can`t go into a crowded theater and scream "Fire" and watch everyone stumble over themselves as they fall and hurt themselves
trying to get out. Pornography, for instance, is not free speech in our country.
So when you say it`s free speech, that does not mean that free speech is unfettered, as I`m sure that both of you know.
And also, the concept -- Gold, I see you smiling. The concept of free speech is basically not applicable to crimes of this nature, including the
death of a teen boy.
FICKER: That`s not true. He had...
GRACE: Are you Jeff Gold? Because you look like Robin Ficker to me. Go ahead, Gold.
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I do agree with you that it`s not about the 1st Amendment. But on the other hand, she didn`t kill him! She
didn`t actually do anything that killed him. He was far away from her. He didn`t have to do it. He didn`t do it...
GRACE: Far away? Far away? Hold on.
GOLD: ... because of her.
GRACE: Let`s discuss that. First of all, to Rita Cosby, investigative journalist. They are boyfriend/girlfriend. They met on a
Florida vacation. They live about 35 minutes apart from each other. And they texted and phone-called constantly, all day and all night. They were
boyfriend/girlfriend.
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Yes, they definitely were, saying, "I love you," "I love you back." The other thing, too, Nancy --
she also, told him, Look, here`s what you buy to do it. Oh, don`t use this vehicle, use that vehicle. So it wasn`t like...
GRACE: She even tells him how to jerry-rig a generator...
COSBY: Right.
GRACE: ... if the car won`t -- you know what? Let`s let the defense attorneys hear more.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "yes, it`s less suspicious. You won`t think about it as much, and you`ll get it over with instead of waiting until the
night."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "yes, then, I will. Like, where? Like, I could go in any enclosed area."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Go in your truck and drive in a parking lot somewhere, to a park or something. Do it, like, early. Do it now, like
early."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Didn`t we say this was suspicious?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "No, I think night is more suspicious. A kid sitting in his car, turning on the radio -- just do it. It won`t be
suspicious, and it won`t take that long."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "OK. I`m taking Holly for a walk."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "OK."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I don`t know why I`m like this."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ""Sometimes things happen, and we never have the answers why."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Like, why am I so hesitant lately? Like, two weeks ago, I was willing to try everything, and now I`m worse. Really bad.
And I`m -- LOL -- not following through. It`s eating me inside."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You`re so hesitant because you keep overthinking it and keep pushing it off. You just need to do it, Conrad.
The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. You`re ready and prepared. All you have to do is turn the generator on and you will be free
and happy. No more pushing it off. No more waiting."
[20:10:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "You`re right."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "If you want it as bad as you say you do, it`s time to do it today."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "yes, no more waiting."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "OK. I`m serious. Like, you can`t even wait until tonight. You have to do it when you get back from your walk."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Thank you."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "For what?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Still being here."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I would never leave you. You`re the love of my life, my boyfriend. You are my heart. I`d never leave you."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Oh."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I love you."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Love you, too."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "When will you be back from your walk?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Like, five minutes."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, great, and then you can go kill yourself. Now -- hold on. I`d love to argue with the defense lawyers right now, but I`ve got to go to
a shrink. Forensic psychologist Dr. Daniel Bober joining me. Dr. Bober, what is wrong with her?
DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST (via telephone): Nancy, the woman sounds like a complete sociopath. The fact that she`s encouraging
him to take his own life -- it`s some sick form of power and control. And I agree with the attorneys. I mean, we`re dealing with a competent adult
here who ultimately can make his own decisions, but it just seems like almost some...
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa! Hold on! Hold on right there, Dr. Bober. I mean, I don`t know if all of you out there can remember your
first love, but this kid, the victim, Conrad Roy III, is a teen boy. This is his first real girlfriend. I don`t know if they were lovers or not, but
he was totally in love with her. We all remember our first love, and the impact that relation has on us.
To hear what this girl is saying to him is blood-chilling! Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "OK, so are you going to do it?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I guess."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Well, I want you to be ready and sure. What does that mean?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I don`t know. I`m freaking out again. I`m overthinking."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I thought you wanted to do this. The time is right, and you`re ready. You just need to do it. You can`t keep living
this way. You just need to do it, like you did the last time, and not think about it and just do it, babe. You can`t keep doing this every day."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I do want to, but I`m, like, freaking for my family, I guess. I don`t know."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Conrad, I told you I`ll take care of them. Everyone will take care of them to make sure they won`t be alone and people
will help them get through it. We talked about this, and they will be OK and accept it. People who commit suicide don`t think this much. They just
could do it."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I know. I know. LOL. Thinking just drives me more crazy."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You just need to do it, Conrad, or I`m going to get you help. You can`t keep doing this every day."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "OK, I`m going to do it today."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You promise?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I promise, babe. I have to now."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Like, right now?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Where do I go?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "And you can`t break a promise. And just go in a quiet parking lot or something."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "OK."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Go somewhere you know you won`t get caught. You can find a place. I know you can. Are you doing it now?"
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is a special guest. In addition to the aunt of the victim, Becki Maki, Joseph P. Cataldo is with us. Mr. Cataldo
is the defense attorney, the lead defense attorney for this girl, Michelle Carter.
Mr. Cataldo, you have an excellent reputation as a lawyer in many respects. Give me your best shot as to why your client is innocent.
JOSEPH CATALDO, MICHELLE CARTER`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): Well, thank you for having me, first, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
CATALDO: I want to put some of this in context. I`ve been hearing these text messages that`s been recited. But what is not being recited are
the various text messages throughout the month of June.
And I think people need to know and go back and see those text messages whereby Conrad Roy constantly is telling Michelle Carter, I want
to kill myself. And Michelle Carter is telling him, No, promise me you will not kill yourself. Go get help. Come to McLean Hospital -- a very
good hospital here in Massachusetts for psychiatric reasons. That`s where I am. Come here and get some help with me.
He says, I`m beyond help. I have a plan. I`m going to kill myself. She sends him links of how to cope with his stresses and saying, Here, read
this. You don`t want to kill yourself. Get help.
He then brings up the idea to her at the very end of June, Let`s do a Romeo and Juliet and kill ourselves. She...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Mr. Cataldo, I appreciate that, and I hope that you`re right because out of the 1,000 texts that I have seen,
none of them talk about that, not one. The ones I see are all her trying to get him to kill himself.
With me is Joseph Cataldo, the defense attorney for this young lady, Michelle Carter.
[20:15:04]Did she convince a sensitive young high school boy to kill himself? According to her text messages, the answer is yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to court documents, Roy drove his truck to this Fairhaven K-Mart with a gas generator, filling it with carbon
monoxide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window in your car and seal it with duct tape
and shirts so it can`t escape. You will die within, like, 20 or 30 minutes, all pain-free."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing the seemingly cold-blooded, remorseless egging on by this girl, Michelle Carter, of an extremely sensitive teen boy, her
boyfriend. She calls him the love of her life. Apparently, this is his first love.
After over 1,000 texts, e-mails, phone calls, according to prosecutors, she finally convinces him to inhale monoxide until he dies.
[20:20:09]Dr. William Morrone with me, renowned forensic pathologist and toxicologist. How does that work? And how would a teen girl know
exactly how to jerry-rig a generator, a pipe with duct tape around it so fresh air can`t get in? What?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I`m going to tell you that probably there`s a million doctors in America, and 950,000 of them can`t
tell you how to set up anything that would make carbon monoxide dangerous.
But everybody knows it`s a toxic gas. Toxic gases like carbon monoxide are measured in parts per million. So we`d say, like -- this is
the inside of the truck. This is carbon monoxide. It is so toxic that that`s toxic. When it reaches 1,000 to 3,000 parts per million, you could
die in 20 to 30 minutes.
GRACE: How could she have known this? I mean, it sounds like she`s reading it off a Web site, how to kill yourself with carbon monoxide.
MORRONE: The problem there is there`s no barometer for right and wrong and life and death, and that`s a problem all over teens. And boys
are star struck. They`ll do anything. She looked this up. She studied this. This stuff just doesn`t roll off your head. She went out and she
sought and studied. She did her homework to put him under.
GRACE: OK. Response, Mr. Joseph Cataldo. You`re her defense lawyer, her lead lawyer. I mean, when I look at her text messages and hear them,
it sounds like she`s reading off a Web site. I mean, did she actually look up and explain to him how to kill himself?
CATALDO: Nancy, you guys have to understand the facts here. She read about how to kill one`s self by carbon monoxide because he in a text sent
her the link. I have it in front of me. She sent -- I mean, he sent the link to her.
Look, read this. It says, "How I can kill myself by carbon monoxide." So the idea that she`s looking this up -- I don`t know where you guys are
getting this from.
GRACE: OK, so let me ask you something...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let me ask you something, then, Mr. Cataldo. I`m hearing her text. I`m reading it. She is writing him exactly how to kill himself at a
time when he is considering suicide, regardless of how she first got the information. And I don`t know that. I don`t know that because I haven`t
seen the texts you`re talking about.
Listen to this, Mr. Cataldo.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "yes, it will work. If you emit 3,200 ppm of it for 5 to 10 minutes, you will die within a half hour. You lose
consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die. You can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window in
your car and seal it with duct tape and shirts so it can`t escape. You will die within, like, 20 or 30 minutes, all pain-free."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:04]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Don`t be scared. You already made this decision, and if you don`t do it tonight, you`re going to be thinking
about it all the time and stuff and all the rest of your life and be miserable."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I cried a lot."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family has since read every text.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inconceivable. I just don`t understand how somebody could do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is Becki Maki, the aunt of the young boy victim. You`re taking a look at Michelle Carter right there. Joining me
is her defense attorney, her lead attorney, Joseph P. Cataldo, who says this is a Romeo and Juliet suicide plot, except from the 1,000 e-mails
we`ve reviewed, they`re all about him killing himself after his first love eggs him on.
Becki Maki, thank you for being with us. What do you make of her defense attorney saying that it`s his fault?
BECKI MAKI, VICTIM`S AUNT (via telephone): To be honest, I -- I -- it`s -- it`s hard to listen to all of the messages. It`s very difficult
for our family. For her to say that we`ll get over it -- that just isn`t going to happen.
I understand that Mr. Cataldo is doing the job that he`s being paid to do. Personally, I don`t know how he sleeps at night defending, you know,
the actions of this girl.
GRACE: Tell me about Conrad. Tell me about him because, you know, we all remember our first love in high school and how that affects and really
shapes a lot of your life. He was deeply in love with this girl, as deeply in love as you can be at that young age. Tell me about him, Becki.
MAKI: He was a very sweet, loving, family-oriented boy, very smart, intelligent, graduated with a very high GPA, was able to earn his captain`s
license. He was a hard worker. He wasn`t entitled. He worked for everything he had. And he was somebody who trusted people. unfortunately,
he trusted the wrong people (INAUDIBLE) this case.
GRACE: Now, how did these two meet and fall in love?
MAKI: I don`t know that the story is them being in love...
(CROSSTALK)
MAKI: ... relationship, but they met in Florida several years ago on a family vacation.
GRACE: Yes, I think they met on a family vacation in Florida.
Larry Fishelson joining me, technology expert, co-founder of Dynalink Communications. Larry, how do these e-mails and texts work in court? How
far back can you go to look at what she was texting him?
LARRY FISHELSON, TECHNOLOGY EXPERT (via telephone): Well, Nancy, it`s very simple. All they really have to do is get a subpoena from the phone
carrier...
GRACE: Right.
FISHELSON: ... where everything is stored on the servers. So the way technology is now, you can go back five years. I`ve seen cases you can go
back even 10 years. So a minimum of five years, they can go back, and even if everything was deleted, it`s still sitting there, data on the server.
GRACE: She is now looking at charges of involuntary manslaughter. Joining me, her lawyer, Joseph P. Cataldo. Mr. Cataldo, I know you`re
arguing she`s not at fault, but listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m determined.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m happy to hear that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m ready.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good, because it`s time, babe. You know that. When you get back from the beach, you`ve got to go do it. You`re ready.
You`re determined. It`s the best time to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, I will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more thinking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, no more thinking. You need to just do it. No more waiting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m way back. I know where to go now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A parking lot. There`s going to be no cars there at 9:00, so that`s when I`ll be found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, perfect. When will you be home?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten minutes. Ha-ha, that`s perfect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, and, well, yes, I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like, I don`t want to kill anyone else with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You won`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they open the door, they won`t know it`s odorless and colorless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re overthinking! They`ll see the generator and realize you breathed in CO2.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So should I keep it in the backseat or front?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the front. You could write on a piece of paper and tape it on saying, carbon monoxide, or something, if you`re
scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was thinking that, but someone might see it before it actually happens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, wait, the generator is going to be on, because you`ll be passed out, so they`ll know you used carbon monoxide.
Dead. It`s not loud, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really. Lmao.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, good. Are you going to do it now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:50]
GRACE: Live, Ogden, Utah. 32-year-old Natalie Peterson gets high, takes to the interstate on highly congested I-15, essentially turning her
Toyota into a deadly weapon. Flying at high speeds, the wrong way, directly into oncoming traffic. It`s your worst nightmare. Imagine having
your children strapped in the backseat and then comes Natalie Peterson, stoned, racing her SUV straight at you on a busy interstate. It all ends
in a fiery crash, all caught on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Repeatedly drove the wrong way on this Utah interstate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s turning and now she`s southbound, going the right way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her car weaving in and out of oncoming traffic, performing a pit maneuver, it rolls to a stop, upside down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay, imagine this. You`re on your way home from work, you have your children in their car seats in the backseat. And all of a
sudden, you get a gander at Natalie Peterson, coming at you, way over the speed limit, the wrong way on the interstate. Jim Kirkwood, talk show
host, KTKK, what happened?
KIRKWOOD: Oh, my. The police were following her around, the highway patrol troopers, and then they finally had to crash into her and roll the
car just to stop her.
GRACE: Oh my stars. Jim, I`m going to take it from the beginning. Let`s start at the beginning, Liz. What kind of car is she driving,
Sergeant Royce? Sergeant Todd Royce, Utah Highway Patrol. What kind of car is that, the Toyota?
SGT TODD ROYCE, UTAH HIGHWAY PATROL: It`s one of those rav-4s, small SUVs.
GRACE: There she is. She just did an awesome pit maneuver, too bad it`s on I-15. And here we go. Oncoming traffic and she`s off. Natalie
Peterson, aged 32, driving at high rates of speed on interstate I-15. Traffic wisely, at this point, anyway, comes to a standstill. It`s all
caught on video, performing two dragway pit maneuvers to elude police. Check it out. It ain`t over yet. First attempt, keep going. Rear bumper,
dragging along. She doesn`t stop there. Natalie Peterson, we don`t know yet what she`s stoned on, here she goes. This time, at least she`s going
the right way, rear bumper dragging along. That`s about to fly off into oncoming traffic, and all this time, I can hear the siren, what, she can`t
hear?
Impact. Wham! Still not over yet. She keeps going, takes a licking, keeps on ticking, right into the cement median. Nearly barrelling into the
other -- oh, okay, there we go. Well, Clark Goldband, on the story, when the police finally see her, when she miraculously crawls out of that
shrapnel, the crash, what does she do?
GOLDBAND: Nancy, according to authorities, she attempts to carjack other vehicles! But it doesn`t stop there. The woman then allegedly runs
on foot to a tractor-trailer, and then, as she tries to climb the tractor- trailer, it doesn`t take one officer or two or three or four, but five officers, allegedly, have to take down the woman, Nancy --
GRACE: Whoa, Clark, look! I just showed her on the ground. Did I hear you say she tried to carjack another car?
GOLDBAND: Multiple vehicles, according to authorities, Nancy.
GRACE: Ok, wait, tell me again. So she crashes. Somehow she manages to crawl out of the shrapnel okay and does what?
GOLDBAND: She runs, she flees on foot, and runs, according to authorities, to try to commandeer another vehicle, a series of vehicles,
according to authorities. It doesn`t stop there.
[20:40:00]
When she cannot get in the vehicles, she then allegedly starts to climb an 18-wheeler tractor-trailer. And an officer in hot pursuit on
foot, perhaps one of the officers who did the two pit maneuvers, tries to take her down, Nancy. It takes five police officers to finally restrain
the woman.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers! Jeff Gold, Robin Ficker. Okay, Ficker, look at all those photos. Those aren`t glamour shots, Ficker, those are
mug shots. Oh, my goodness, there`s more. I didn`t know we had a whole another full screen. Whoa, whoa, that`s 8, that`s 11. When does it end
with this woman? Robin Ficker, did you just see all of those mug shots, all right?
FICKER: If this lovely girl had a brain tumor or a heart attack causing this misbehavior, you would feel sorry for her, Nancy Grace.
GRACE: Why are you even saying that?
FICKER: She has an illness. She has an addiction. She needs treatment. She should not be condemned on TV.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:00]
GRACE: Live, Concord, New Hampshire. A young teen girl victim breaks down in tears on the stand, describing an elite prep school rape. All part
of a virginity-taking contest, where the male upperclassmen keep scores, written on the walls behind the washers and dryers at the dorms of the
names of their victims. In the last hours, damning evidence from the witness stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was trying to be No. 1 at sexual scoring at St. Paul`s school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that he never penetrated her, he tucked his penis back into his boxers --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when he tried to take the bra off, she put it back on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, just before we go to air tonight, the state rests its case against Owen Labrie, an upperclassman seen right there, who claims he
never had sex. But then, according to what came in from the witness stand in the last 48 hours, Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent, he went back and
bragged to his friends that, yes, they did have sex, and that she had been a virgin.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right. So you have an inconsistency there. So much in the courtroom today, Nancy. So much.
First of all, the detective took the stand that actually interviewed the defendant, and that detective said that he was polite, but he was very
arrogant. And he did say that he did not have sexual relations with her at all, but yet he said he put on a condom to just sort of tease, and sort of
as they frolicked and rolled around, that it would be fun.
GRACE: In the mechanical room.
CASAREZ: In the mechanical room.
GRACE: Okay.
CASAREZ: On a blanket.
GRACE: Okay, what`s the fun part for the girl? Frolicking, as you say, Jean Casarez, frolicking and rolling around in the mechanical room?
Am I missing -- what`s the fun part of that?
CASAREZ: I don`t think they touched on whether she thought it was fun, but he said that he kissed her in different areas, that he did pull
her bra strap down, then she put it back up, so that showed him, well, let`s not mess with the bra anymore. But he says that she kissed him on
the neck and blew into his ear.
GRACE: Okay, let me understand something. Let`s go back to the lawyers. With me, Jean Casarez, not only a correspondent but a lawyer
herself. Jeff Gold and Robin Ficker. Jeff Gold, he actually texts her and says, are you on the pill? And then says, she says, did you wear a condom?
And he says -- I`m quoting, praise Jesus, I put it on halfway through. His defense is they never had sex, Jeff Gold. So halfway through what?
GOLD: Look, you know, Nancy, this is a case of regret. Everything in this case says that she consented to do this --
GRACE: Not going to answer.
GOLD: That she regretted it, perhaps, afterwards, but even the e- mails afterward, where she said, you`re not bad yourself.
GRACE: Really, she regretted it?
GOLD: A lot of girl`s names are written on a washroom in a school, Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, how chivalrous of you to point that out, Jeff Gold. Ficker, let`s go to you. So, his whole defense is, they didn`t have sex.
And isn`t it true, Mr. Ficker, the judge will instruct this jury on credibility, and they are to determine who`s telling the truth. And isn`t
it true, Mr. Ficker, that part of that credibility charge says that if the defendant or any witness is caught in a lie, the jury will be allowed to
discard all of their testimony. So if his defense is we didn`t have sex, and the jury deems he lied, they can throw out everything he may say on the
stand and totally disregard it. Isn`t that true?
FICKER: That`s true, but she was a virgin and she didn`t know what was going on down there. He was a divinity student going to Harvard, he
was a catch. She was a social climber.
GRACE: Can I ask you a question, Mr. Ficker? You`re pointing down. She didn`t know what was going on down there? What, at your shoes? What?
FICKER: No, in her genital area. She didn`t know. She was a virgin.
GRACE: How could she not know what was going on in her own underwear?
FICKER: There was no penetration. There was no penetration in this case.
GRACE: Really? Then, why did he say -- Jean, am I right or wrong, did he say, or did he not, in a text, praise Jesus -- Lord help me for
that, praise Jesus, I put on my condom halfway through.
CASAREZ: Because she asked him, were you wearing a condom, and he then responds with what you`re just saying, Nancy, and he says to her, did
you take a pill.
[20:50:00]
GRACE: So if they didn`t have sex, Ficker, then why is he praising heaven that he put on a condom halfway through, halfway through what,
Ficker?
FICKER: Idle chit-chat, bragging, talking to friends. All guys do that. They exaggerate. Nothing happened in this case. He`s innocent.
GRACE: He said that to her. Explain to me, then, Jean Casarez, if you could, the DNA evidence that places his DNA on her underwear.
CASAREZ: It`s not as good as you might think it is, Nancy, all right? First of all, they do the preliminary tests, and it`s on her underwear, and
the fluorescent UVA lights show that there is the indication, once they do the testing, of semen. Don`t know whose semen, indication of semen. I`m
just taking you through this step by step. So then they go for the DNA analysis.
GRACE: So you say semen, all right? Since we know she`s a virgin, it`s got to be his semen. But did they find sperm?
CASAREZ: No, found semen, indication of semen in that preliminary test.
GRACE: Let`s talk about what Jean Casarez is clarifying for us, and the devil`s in the detail, Jean. You`re absolutely right. Let`s go to Dr.
William Morrone, no offense, you two, but you`re JD`s, he`s an MD. Morrone, question, isn`t it true, and I`m a little fuzzy on this. They
have sex contact, they have sex. There`s semen in her underwear, but not sperm. What does that mean?
MORRONE: Well, in the act of ejaculation from the penis, ejaculate fluid is combined with sperm, and it becomes a package. It`s not created
together. It comes together, like mixing different colored cakes. When you ejaculate, you may be shooting blanks. That`s a euphemism, until sperm
actually gets out there at the same time. Depending on his stage of puberty, this man may not -- sperm is not the question. Penetration is the
question. And DNA from the ejaculate is important.
GRACE: But even from semen, couldn`t you get DNA from semen? It doesn`t have to be sperm.
MORRONE: That DNA might come off as skin cells in the fluid, but it doesn`t have to be sperm. The act of rape never says you need sperm.
GRACE: Okay. Understood. Understood. Rape is penetration. Rape does not mean ejaculation with sperm. Another question. Jean is correct
that there was no sperm when they did the vaginal rape kit at the hospital. But, isn`t it true, Dr. Morrone --
MORRONE: Yes.
GRACE: -- that after 48 to 72 hours, sperm degenerates? First the head breaks off. Then the tail breaks off. Pretty soon you put it under a
microscope, you don`t see anything at all.
MORRONE: There more than likely would still be some deposits there. They degrade over time. But he can be shooting blanks and still full-blown
rape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:30]
GRACE: This was hanging over the Sigma Nu fraternity house at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia. This is not part of the prep
school rape trial, but this just happened. Go ahead and drop off mom too, freshman daughter drop off. Hope your baby girl is ready for a good time.
Over my dead body! I`m sure Sigma Nu is so proud of that.
Let me go to Alison Kiss, executive director, the Cleary Center for Security on Campus. Alison, I am -- first of all, thank you for being with
us. But I`m overwhelmed. I`m overwhelmed at this culture, this senior salute is basically a rape culture. Like I`m going to home school my
little girl, you know, because of this.
ALISON KISS, CLEARY CENTER FOR SECURITY ON CAMPUS: Thanks for having me, Nancy, yes. It`s something that we need to look at if we`re going to
tackle on sexual assault, rape on high school and colleges. We need to look at climate. Culture and climate, is the only way we can get to the
root of the problem. We have to understand what our climates are like at our campuses. If they`re hanging signs, if they have such rituals as the
senior salute, if those are happening underground or they are not addressed, then we`re never going to get to the root of this problem.
GRACE: Alison Kiss, it`s like girls don`t have a chance going into this environment, to be treated that way, and talked about, and made fun
of, the way this girl was, it`s just so hurtful.
KISS: There definitely, you say girls don`t have a chance. There`s certainly discrimination out there based on gender that we see every day,
unfortunately, in our line of work.
GRACE: I`m telling you, from what I`m seeing, I`m still home schooling Lucy. OK?
Let`s stop and remember, American hero, Nevada Deputy Sheriff Carl Howell, just 35. Killed in the line of duty, served Carson City sheriff`s
nine years, a Marine, father, Kevin, brother Cory, widow Rachel. Four children. Carl Howell, American hero.
Happy birthday to my (inaudible) friend Jenny. Isn`t she beautiful? Thanks to our guests. But our biggest thank you is to you for being with
us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night,
friend.
END
