Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Manhunt for Illinois Cop Killers. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired September 02, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Three cops murdered in less than a week, another officer slaughtered in his Texas home amid
growing safety fears, and a manhunt for Illinois cop killers. Bombshell tonight. We go live in the manhunt for cop killers that got away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officer down. (INAUDIBLE) subjects are to be considered armed and dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A decorated police officer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are three suspects at large.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Numerous K9s on the ground, helicopters and aircrafts in the air, officers on foot conducting searches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a murdered colleague, a police officer, and we`re not going to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Indianapolis. This dad begging the public to help him find his missing 3-month-old baby girl, Jana (ph). But take a look.
Is Daddy telling the truth?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been three months since baby Jana disappeared from her home on the northeast side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know why, but I don`t feel responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No doubt in your mind she wasn`t put in that exact (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you walked away from it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Amber Alert. A 4-year-old little missing boy is very sick, in grave danger and needs immediate medical attention. Tonight,
where is Kingston (ph)?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are on the lookout for a missing New Mexico boy. Kingston is under 4 feet tall, has black hair, brown eyes and weighs
about 50 pounds. Everyone`s help is needed to find him and bring him home safely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, a serial bride who`s been entering the state of marital bliss 10 times and counting. Tonight, cops hone in on the fact the
serial bride repeatedly marries men from, quote, "red-flag countries known for terrorism" so they can get into the U.S.?
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Three cops murdered in less than a week, another officer found slaughtered in his Texas home amid growing safety fears. And
tonight, a manhunt for Illinois cop killers. We go live in the manhunt for cop killers that got away.
Straight out to Ryan Young, CNN national correspondent. You know, a lot of the details surrounding the death of Lieutenant Gliniewicz are still
murky, but this is what I think we`re understanding, that he was in a basically rural, industrial area. We`ve got a dispatch where he says he
sees three suspicious guys, two white males and one black male. And then the next thing you know, he`s dead 50 yards from his cruiser.
What can you tell me, Ryan?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, don`t forget there was a foot chase before that firing of that gun, before whatever happened next. We do
know the man got away.
But Nancy, there are new details that people have been talking about, the idea there may have been surveillance cameras in the area that captured
some of these men as they tried to escape the area.
There is a belief here that law enforcement may know more than what they`re sharing at this point. But this is a dense area, where you have
industrial area that butts up right against residential areas, and they believe maybe they ran into a heavily wooded area. That`s where they did
the search, and we were here yesterday as those massive amounts of troops were here.
We had SWAT teams from the FBI, the ATF, All surrounding the area, looking for these three men who were on the run. Of course, we`ve been
begging for more information to try to find out if there`s any more details so we can maybe get the public to be cued in on this to make the phone
calls.
Right now, though, we did see the lessening of troops in terms of going from door to door.
GRACE: OK, with me there on the scene, Ryan Young, CNN national correspondent. Again, a lot of the details we`ve got are murky because
cops are playing it close to the vest. And why shouldn`t they? This guy is a father of four, married for years. It`s 8:00 AM in the morning --
8:00 AM! -- when Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz goes on routine patrol.
He radios in, Hey, see some suspicious activity. It`s in an industrial area abutted to rural and some residential areas. We don`t know
what he saw that was suspicious, but he saw something that perked his interest.
Now, I`m hearing reports, Ryan Young, and I want to know if you can confirm any of these, that within about three minutes of that call, he
calls for backup. Do we know that? Is that confirmed yet?
[20:05:02]YOUNG: We do believe there was a call for backup. And not only do we believe there was a call for backup, but we believe the
responding officers actually heard the shot that killed their fellow officer.
GRACE: Oh, no!
YOUNG: Can you imagine the heavy hearts they have? In fact, we -- yes. Yes. And we are at a candlelight vigil right now where, in fact, his
family members got on stage and thanked the community for their support. You can understand how this is hitting so many people, this officer serving
here some 30 years, Nancy.
GRACE: Ryan, Ryan, I want to talk about how we`re going to catch these cop killers. So I`m trying to nail down this timeline. So 8:00 AM
in the morning, which is not typically a time for murder, all right? So he`s on routine patrol, rural, industrial area. Think about warehouses.
Think about businesses out in rural areas where you may have an industrial complex.
He calls. He says, I`m checking out three suspicious men, two white males, one black male. They had to be on foot, right, for him to be able
to see all that? So let`s just go with this, three guys on foot.
Three minutes later, he calls for backup. In about six minutes, the other backup arrives. And what Ryan Young is telling me, they actually
heard the shot. So when they pull up, they have to look for the cop. He`s about 50 yards away.
I`m also hearing unconfirmed reports, Ryan Young, that his police weapon, his gun, was found on the scene. Have you heard that? Can you
confirm that?
YOUNG: They will not confirm that information with us, and that`s something that we`ve been trying to find out. Was the gun stolen? Was it
taken? Or was it there on scene somewhere near his body? That`s something that we`ve been working on for several hours.
But obviously, police are keeping some of the details close in because was there a struggle for the gun? Is there DNA left from those guys on the
gun? And is that in a lab right now? And do know they who they`re looking for, and maybe this is what they`re doing to make sure that people out
there don`t know exactly what police know.?
So we have a lot of questions, Nancy. And hopefully, over the next few days...
GRACE: Well, let`s think this through, Ryan...
YOUNG: ... as they analyze the surveillance video from the area, they`ll tell us more.
GRACE: Let`s think it through. You`re saying surveillance video from the area. That says to me that some of these industrial buildings may have
security cameras.
Another thing. How could they get away so fast if they were on foot because, I mean, the minute the other cops get there, they`re going to call
in K9s, bloodhounds, scent dogs tracker dogs. Why can`t they find them? How can you just disappear into thin air?
The only thing I`m thinking is either they go into the woods, Ryan Young, where they should be able to use tracker dogs, or they had a car
nearby and they took off. Also, do these guys have a gun, or did they use Gliniewicz`s own gun on him, and would there be fingerprints on that gun
that we could trace back to the perps, Ryan?
YOUNG: That is the question that all of us are wondering, especially with a major highway nearby where the shooting happened. Of course, this
happened behind some businesses. We actually talked to several business owners in that area. And they said, Look, in the back part over there,
they could understand why an officer would pull up and question someone. But who knows why the men were meeting? Maybe they had a car stashed
somewhere else and they were able to get on the highway and flee this area and maybe make it towards Chicago or Wisconsin.
These are some of the questions they have. But maybe police have more information. Maybe they have better images than what we know of, and maybe
they`re tracking down these guys even as we speak. But right now, we know the perimeter has certainly changed.
GRACE: Ryan, Ryan -- Ryan, listen. If they`ve got images of these guys, I guarantee you they`re putting those images out there so the public
can look for these guys, these cop killers. That`s what these guys are. They`re cop killers!
Ryan, let me follow through with what you`re saying, 8:00 AM in the morning -- Ryan Young, if a cop comes up to you and says, Why are you here,
I don`t try to wrestle his gun out of his holster and shoot him dead.
That leads me to this hypothesis. They were not there for anything innocent. They weren`t waiting to go into work. So what were they hiding?
My point is, if we can figure out why they attacked the cop -- had they just robbed a 7-Eleven? Had they just stolen a car? Is there a car out
there that`s been stolen with their fingerprints on it? Were they trying to break into one of those industrial buildings? If so, are there
fingerprints around that?
I`m trying to connect them up to a logical reason why they would have shot the cop, Ryan.
YOUNG: Well, you have three people. Maybe they were meeting. Maybe something was going on. Maybe there was an exchange there where it was
something illegal, and the officer stopped them in the middle of an illegal exchange. You never know.
This officer, a 32-year-old (sic) veteran, was smart enough to say, Hey, something suspicious here, and pull over and do the good community
work that more than likely he`s been doing for years. And when he asked that question, he may have not known what he was talking into.
[20:10:08]GRACE: With me on the scene, Ryan Young, CNN national correspondent. So Ryan Young, can you tell me what`s happening in the
search?
Hold on. Our sat went down. Let me go to Geoff Pinkus, a talk show host, WCGO. What can you tell me about the search itself? I understand
helicopters, K9s now, I hope, foot searches. How are we looking for the cop killer?
GEOFF PINKUS, 1560 WCGO (via telephone): Well, it`s not looking real well, Nancy, unfortunately. Late yesterday was 400 officers on the scene.
I live about 15 or 20 minutes south of there, and cop cars are going up there since 8:00 o`clock in the morning. And it`s now down to 100. They
have abandoned the search and they`re looking out of the area.
According -- you know, they don`t say much, but it looks to all of us like somehow, some way they have left the area. They`re searching all the
rural areas. But it looks like, according to the police, they`re out of the area. And there is no video...
GRACE: OK, let`s analyze it. Let`s analyze it, Geoff Pinkus, WCGO talk show host. Geoff, let`s think about what you`re saying. The cops are
now moved out of that area. Well, you`re right, all right? It`s not in that area. They`ve moved on. They`ve exhausted that.
What does that mean? That means that these guys had to be -- had to have access to a vehicle because if the other officers arrived within six
minutes, I mean, how far -- they heard the gunshot, Geoff Pinkus. How far can they get on foot, for Pete`s sake? They had to have a vehicle stashed
somewhere.
OK, let`s think. What`s the most likely place they went? Were they locals, Geoff Pinkus? Because if they`re locals, somebody is going to
notice they`re gone.
PINKUS: (INAUDIBLE) certainly could have commandeered a vehicle. They just shot and killed an officer, so it`s not a big deal to carjack or
hijack a car and keep going.
There`s a lot of rural areas, and they can get up to the highway and be in Wisconsin in no time. As a matter of fact, I don`t want to be
cynical about it, but after four or five hours when they didn`t find them, I said to myself, They`re gone. They`re out of here. They`re history.
They`re -- you know, they could have even gotten on the train, Nancy. They could have split up. Nobody knows.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:48]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down. The two subjects were a male white and a male black, last seen running towards a swamp. Officer
wasn`t answering (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a foot pursuit when communication was lost. His backup officer arrived on the scene and located him with a gunshot
wound.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It victimizes not just the police department but the whole community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Open season on cops in our country, yet another police officer killed in the line of duty. I`m talking about Lieutenant Joseph
Gliniewicz, a father of four. Three cops dead in less than a week.
Take a look at this training video we managed to get our hands on of Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIEUTENANT JOSEPH GLINIEWICZ, FOX LAKE POLICE DEPARTMENT: (INAUDIBLE) Take your weapon. Your body (INAUDIBLE) all right? (INAUDIBLE) right
there. (INAUDIBLE) everywhere you look. You can press (ph) to assess. And you`re going to -- I`m going to hit someone (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video is from Facebook. How many hundreds of times do you think his wife and children are going to play this video over and over
and over, looking at their father? They`re going to be raised without him. And tonight, we are begging the public for help in finding the cop killers
that got away.
I was listening to that dispatch call at the get-go. Geoff Pinkus joining me, along with Candace Trunzo, senior news editor at Dailymail.com,
and Justin Freiman. Also with me, Matthew Fogg, chief deputy U.S. Marshal, retired, former member, U.S. Marshals special op group.
To all of you, thank you for being with us. First to you, Matthew Fogg. I noticed the dispatch says two people, one white male, one black
male. It`s actually two white males, one black male. And they led him, Gliniewicz, on a foot chase.
Now, go with me for a moment. Matthew, they lead him on a foot chase. My question is why. Would their initial crime lead us to their
identification? Weigh in, Matthew.
MATTHEW FOGG, RET. CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Well, and that`s the problem that I have here with the foot chase and how long it took this
officer to approach them. How far was he away from them when they actually made contact? (INAUDIBLE) vehicle.
Normally, you would talk about officers, when they get something that`s suspicious like that, they`ll kind of radio a call in, and they`ll
wait for backup. So for this officer to go in to these guys and be 50 yards away dealing with them, I find that kind of really sort of -- maybe
in that area, that`s OK, but -- in that part of the country, but I`m just saying to you, to see three people that you felt were suspicious and then
you approach them, I would just kind of wonder about that. And then the fact that (INAUDIBLE) see the autopsy because I got to see how close it was
this shot that was taken on this officer. (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Yes, you`re right about that.
FOGG: ... or whether the gun was away from him. It`s a lot of unanswered questions here. And here`s what (INAUDIBLE)
[20:20:05]GRACE: I agree. There`s a lot of unanswered questions.
FOGG: It`s just too much information here that`s just not coming out right.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Renee Rockwell, defense lawyer, Alex Sanchez, defense lawyer as well out of New York.
All right, let`s get down to the nitty-gritty and analyze what we know. We know that they took him on a foot chase, Renee. So his body is
found 50 yards -- that`s about half a football field -- away from his cruiser. Now, what that says to me is he pulls up, they see him. They
obviously were doing something wrong because I don`t start running from a cop when I see one pull up, all right?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Why were they doing something wrong?
GRACE: They take off running -- because they started running from the cop. He had a foot chase.
ROCKWELL: Nancy...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... you run after the person?
ROCKWELL: OK, first of all, just because they`re running from the police doesn`t mean they were doing something wrong. What if there was one
individual that is super-sensitive and didn`t want to engage with the officer and took his gun off of him and shot him? Does that mean the other
two are guilty? Some people in this day and age...
GRACE: Yes, under the law.
ROCKWELL: ... Nancy, run from the police.
GRACE: You know what, Renee? I really don`t want to argue with you tonight. What I want to do tonight is try to help find a cop killer, OK?
So you can make all your arguments about being hyper-sensitive when we get them, all right, but right now, it`s just common sense, you know, and I
really don`t want to split hairs right now, Renee or Alex. I`m asking you to use your wisdom, all right, your wisdom, and help me find this cop
killer!
Is that so much to ask? I mean, come on, Sanchez, really? When you see a cop, I don`t think you`d take off running. You know what? I`m not
going to split hairs with you. They started running. And within three minutes of him saying, I`m checking out these guys, he calls for backup.
That`s when they were running. Within six minutes, the other cops were there, and they hear the shot.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, unfortunately, we have very little information on which to draw any legitimate conclusions. But one
thing I think the -- more likely than not, from what I`m seeing, those perpetrators come from that area. They`re familiar with that industrial
complex. And...
GRACE: Hold on. Put him up. Put him up.
SANCHEZ: ... they`re not going to have outsiders coming there at 8:00 o`clock in the morning, and I would...
GRACE: Exactly, Alex.
SANCHEZ: ... expect the police -- I would expect the police to go and interview every single person that is working at that complex and interview
them and their family. And you hit the nail on the head.
GRACE: Hold on.
SANCHEZ: Who was missing?
GRACE: I want to follow up on what you just said, that somebody local -- Liz, if you can, could you put me up the map because I`m trying to
figure out how close is this to an interstate. It`s about 55 miles from Chicago. It`s in a sleepy little town, is the way it`s been described.
It`s got a low population. So who else would be there other than somebody from the area?
Now, Renee, I think I can get you to agree on this. Where you`ve got three people involved in a cop killing, one of them is going to talk.
One`s going to get drunk.
ROCKWELL: Oh, Nancy...
GRACE: One`s going to get high. Somebody`s going to talk.
ROCKWELL: Exactly. And you know what? You don`t even have to wait for that person to talk because they`ve already talked to their family.
And what works better than anything, Nancy? And that`s a reward, a reward. They`ll turn in their own mothers for a reward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:34]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve seen them on ATVs. We`ve seen K9 officers. We`ve seen police helicopters used throughout this operation to
try to find the three suspects they`re looking for, whom they believe killed Joseph Gliniewicz, a 32-year veteran of the police department here.
We`re also told Gliniewicz is a father of four.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: By ATV, by air, by helicopter, on foot, hundreds coming out to try and catch cop killers. In the last week, we now know of three to four
officers murdered. Why?
Right now, we`re talking about Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz. Take a look at this other video we managed to dig up of Gliniewicz as a rookie --
let`s see that, Liz -- starting out his career as a police officer. There is Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz, who turned into the veteran officer that
he was at the time he was cut down, gunned down, by three cop killers.
Tonight, we analyze what`s left behind. They`re still on the run. Take a listen now to the dispatch. What can we learn from it? Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Fox Lake for an officer down, 128 Hoening (ph). Units responding to (INAUDIBLE) Hoening (ph) in Fox Lake.
They were responding to a report of a suspicious, a male black and a male white. It appears the officer`s gun is missing now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) to assess officer down. The two subjects were a male white and a male black last seen running towards the
swamp. Officer wasn`t answering the status check. All (INAUDIBLE) units responding to an officer down, Fox Lake. Subjects are to be considered
armed and dangerous. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Special attention, Fox Lake, surrounding area. (INAUDIBLE) safety. A man with a gun.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s audio from Broadcastfind.com.
All right, Candace Trunzo, every time I listen to that, I seem to pick up something new. They weren`t running for a car. They weren`t running
for a vehicle. They were running for a swamp, a swampy area. There`s not a car parked out in a swampy area, Candace Trunzo, senior news editor,
Dailymail.com. They ran into the swamp.
CANDACE TRUNZO, DAILYMAIL.COM (via telephone): Right.
GRACE: Candace, can you confirm that they did find Lieutenant Gliniewicz`s weapon?
[20:30:00]
TRUNZO: You know, Nancy, I wish I could tell you that they did. They`re being very closed mouthed about it. We don`t know if they found the
weapon. We don`t know if they found some pepper spray which was apparently called in as missing from Lieutenant Gliniewicz, so there are a lot of
questions, but there`s some good stuff too we`re learning. And that is there`s numerous videos that they`re looking at. In fact, one truck driver
in the area had some video going. They`re looking at that. They`re looking at gas station video just in case they ran from the swamp and got
into a car and drove off. So there`s a lot of video surveillance that might lead to, we hope, some resolution to this horrible crime.
GRACE: Two white males, one black male running into the swamp. They did not run to a vehicle and take off. They ran into a swamp to get back
to their vehicle? Listen. Geoff Pinkus, talk show host, WCGO. I can`t imagine they circled back and got into a vehicle. They left on foot. That
says to me they`re local.
PINKUS: Nancy, what you don`t know, I don`t think, is they may have been running for a swamp, but it`s a major, major boating community. Many,
many people dock their boats. They go there for the weekends up in Fox lake and enjoy the Fox river. They could have just as easily run down the
swamp and commandeered a boat as well. It may not have been a car --
GRACE: But wouldn`t we have a boat missing report by now?
PINKUS: No. I`m just saying we don`t know. Maybe they hijacked a boat just like -- or I don`t know what the term is carjacked the boat or
boat jacked, and taken a boat and gone through Lake Michigan.
GRACE: Okay. They would have to do that and take it from one of the marinas, one of the docks. I see what you`re saying right now, Geoff
Pinkus. We`re showing right now the body of water they could have used at Fox lake. I hear you. I hear you. I still say they`re locals, and
somebody`s got to know that they`re missing. Take a listen to this dispatch sound. What do we learn?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Male white and a male black was seen taken the officer`s sidearm and pepper spray. Shots were fired. Unknown direction
of travel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Send everybody you possibly can. Officer is down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: From ABC`s GMA.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officer down. Subjects are to be considered armed and dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A decorated police officer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shot to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are three suspects at large. Numerous canines on the ground. Helicopters and aircrafts in the air. Officers on
foot, conducting searches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a murdered colleague police officer, and we`re not going to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Geoff Pinkus, talk show host WCGO. For those of you just joining us, it`s open fire on our country`s police officers. A
long time veteran, Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz, shot down dead. You`ve got Goforth. You`ve got Allen. Others, all killed. Why? Here we have
obtained this training video of Lieutenant Joseph Gliniewicz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shove it right there. Stay there to the block. Everywhere you look, you can press to an assassin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How did this veteran officer, who teaches firearms to recruits, how did they get his gun? His gun, we`re getting reports
tonight, haven`t confirmed them yet, was recovered. You know, Geoff Pinkus, WCGO, I was just talking to you about your theory that they were
spotted headed for the swamps. That`s not a theory. We learned that from the dispatch. Two white males, one black male, heading for a swampy area.
You said boats and marina in that area. I said, hey, wouldn`t somebody notice if their boat is gone? But think about it. This is a vacation
area. People are back to school. Back to work. They may not even know their boat is gone. They could be storing their boat there, and they live
in a different city or 15, 20 miles away. They may not even know that their craft is gone, Geoff.
PINKUS: That`s true. It`s getting toward Labor Day and the summer is ending. They could have just have very well hot wired the boat and taken
off. There are several boats there that are vacant, especially during the week. It`s mainly a weekend vacation area.
GRACE: You know what I`d like to know, Geoff Pinkus, is what`s on the other side of that swamp. When you come through the swamp, what`s on the
other side of it? Matthew Fogg with me, chief deputy U.S. marshal, retired. Can canines go through a swamp? How difficult is that for
canines, Matthew?
FOGG: Well, the blood hounds can certainly do it. They can follow you through swamps and stuff like that. So the dogs can do it. That is
why I`m a little surprised the dogs didn`t pick up the scent right away. If there was any type of (inaudible), I`m a little surprised at that. But
again --
GRACE: Matthew Fogg, I agree with you.
FOGG: -- they could have taken over a home. They could have --
(CROSSTALK)
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Oh, yes. Good point, Matthew Fogg. Let me go to Justin Freiman on this. Justin, there are hundreds, just like Pinkus and Matthew
Fogg are saying, there are hundreds of vacation homes there. People don`t live there, and we just saw the New York escapees had gone through vacation
homes, they were hiding out there. What about that, Justin?
FREIMAN: You`re right, Nancy. There are a lot of homes out there that are vacation homes. They have boats. They have cars. They may not
have noticed something is missing yet. There`s also a lot of abandoned buildings, a concrete factory and places like that. There is a lot of nooks
and crannies out there where people could be hiding.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Michelle Dupre, forensic pathologist joining me. Dr. Dupre, I really want to find out about the autopsy. I`m getting
reports the autopsy on Lieutenant Gliniewicz has been completed. What I want to find out how many times was he shot? If his gun was found, how
many bullets were left in the gun? Did he manage to get a round into these cop killers? Are one of them wounded? Also if there was a struggle for
the gun, if they shot him with his own gun, if there was a struggle for the gun, could there be DNA on Gliniewicz`s body from the struggle? His belt?
His shoe?
DUPRE: Absolutely, Nancy. The autopsy is going to be very important. We want to know about the trajectory of the bullets. We want to know the
distance the gun was fired. We want to know if there`s any trace evidence. We want to know any evidence of a struggle, of another person involved in
this.
GRACE: You know, Geoff Pinkus joining me, WCGO there in the area. What`s the closest interstate, because I hear what you`re saying about a
boat, but to me, that seems a lot more farfetched than them hot wiring a car or stealing a car, or if they`re locals, getting back to their own car
and hitting the interstate? How close are they to the interstate?
PINKUS: Not far, Nancy, but not just that. There`s other venues that they could just -- there`s a route called Route 59, which goes all the way
up to Wisconsin and all the way down through, you know, the suburbs of Illinois, so they could have gotten onto there if they did have a car in
five or ten minutes and just gotten out of there. The interstate is close, but there`s a lot of main arteries they could have gotten away with.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:00]
GRACE: Live Indianapolis. This dad begging the public to help find his missing 3-month-old baby girl, Jana. But take a look. Is daddy
telling the truth?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of Jana`s sisters told investigators she remembered her mom kept begging Jeff to tell her where the baby was, and he
said one day he was going to take her there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wanted the girls to see her. They didn`t want anybody to see her like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. I want to take a look at this father begging the public to help find baby Jana. Liz, do you have his statement cued up, him
begging the public? Take a look, everybody. What do you think?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She died in her sleep. I don`t know -- I don`t know why, but I don`t feel responsible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Okay. I`m not an expert, but Aaron Brehove, body language expert, child consulting group, you are. But I do notice that he`s
wringing his hands, he is pausing, and fidgeting. But I don`t know that that`s going to carry the day. What do you make of what he just said?
I`ve got more to show you.
BREHOVE: Of what I`ve seen right here, he looks as if he`s sad. He looks as if there`s some sorrow, but this is a person that has been
continuously manipulative throughout his life. You look at his background, you`ll see this.
GRACE: You`ve got to look at his body language, Aaron Brehove. Everybody doesn`t come with a resume. Aaron, I want you to tell me what
you are observing with this father, who`s begging the public to help find his daughter? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her lips were blue. She looked normal, but her skin, everything was normal, but she was limp. Didn`t want the girls to
see her. I didn`t want anybody to see her like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Liz, cue up the next one for me. I want to see all of them. This little girl goes missing while mommy is away. He is in charge.
There are two other siblings. Let`s take another look at what he had to say. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember when I was driving, I remember I was crying and praying. Just completely lost. And I remember looking over at
a person next to me at a stoplight, and I remember thinking what they must be thinking. Do they know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No doubt in your mind she wasn`t put in that exact dumpster?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you walked away from it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did not put just the blanket in the dumpster? You put her somewhere else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did he have something in his eye, or was that just rapid blinking? Did you see that? It took him a long time?
[20:50:00]
Unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and Alex Sanchez. This baby is missing. It took him a long time to think about his answer, regarding the
last time he saw the baby. Renee Rockwell, I remember the last time I saw my children, I don`t have to think about it. I remember exactly where they
were, what they were wearing, and what they said. Why does he have to take a long time to answer about the last time he saw the baby?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, he might be high, he might be drunk, he might be filled with some great sorrow. Let`s not hold it against him if he`s
blinking or fidgeting. He`s got bigger problems.
GRACE: His whole story stinks. I`m trying to figure out if he`s telling the truth. What about his demeanor, Alex Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: He`s either a very good liar or he`s contrite. The case to me sounds like someone that committed a very serious mistake in handling
that child. And became very panic stricken. He sounds depressed and things spun out of control.
GRACE: He sounds depressed. I`m pretty sure you have got a J.D., not an M.D., but I`m going to go with you on that. He`s either lying or
contrite. Neither one of those are good in that scenario, of a missing child. To Kylie Havens, joining me, WOWO, when did the baby go missing?
HAVENS: The baby first went missing in May. Supposed to be with the dad. He was watching her, mom comes home from work. Dad isn`t there, her
other two kids are there. She`s wondering where the dad is, dad finally comes home, baby`s not with him.
GRACE: Ashley Willcott joining me out of Atlanta. Certified child welfare law specialist. Did you notice how long it took the mother to
report the baby missing? In the middle of the night, where is your baby going to be? It`s supposed to be at home. Why did mommy take so long to
report the baby missing?
WILLCOTT: That`s one of the questions that DCS has to look at to make sure this mother is protecting her other two children. We don`t know the
answer to that. But I will say, according to the other children`s statements, and her own statement to the court to get a restraining order
recently, she said she was a victim of domestic violence, and she`s afraid of him, she was afraid of what he would do to her and the children. If
that`s the case--
GRACE: Hold on. I hear you, Ashley Willcott, but to you, Dr. Eris Huemer, psychotherapist, Dreris.com. I agree, Ashley Willcott is right.
She says that the mom was -- claimed she was an abused woman, let`s just take that at face value. But at what point do you value your own life over
your child`s? I mean, when your baby is missing, three months old. You can`t go to a pay phone, if you have got to use the pay phone, a neighbor`s
house, go outside and use your cell phone, get your kids out to find your baby? Help me.
HUEMER: I know, Nancy, I mean, you and I are both mothers. You know if I was in any sort of domestic violence case, my child would be protected
immediately. I would have him out of the house. As you would your twins, so there should be some sort of child neglect happening here. This mother
should have been on the phone immediately and protecting the other two children. Because we need to get down to the bottom of this, about what is
happening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:45]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been three months since baby Jana disappeared from her home on the northeast side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know why, but I don`t feel responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No doubt in your mind she wasn`t put in that exact dumpster?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you walked away from her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Taking a look at him, it`s hard to determine whether he`s contrite or lying. TV dad goes on air begging for the public to help find
his 3-month-old baby Jana. But is he involved in her disappearance? To Stacy Newman. How can you put your head on your pillow at night and go to
sleep when your baby is missing? What does the mom say, Stacy? Is this guy lying or not?
NEWMAN: Well, he is, the mom said she needed to protect her other two girls at the home at the time the baby vanished. She says she didn`t want
him to get upset and cause a problem and hurt the other little girls. That`s why she waited until the next day to call police to report Jana
missing.
GRACE: I`m not making mommy the demon here. I`m just wondering why it`s unfolding the way it is.
Back to Kylie Havens, WOWO, isn`t it true that the father did make many incriminating statements?
HAVENS: Yes, he definitely did, he told the mom one thing, where he put the baby. Later he comes back and tells people he admits, to oh, I
actually put the baby somewhere else.
GRACE: Hold on, Kylie, they`re cutting me off. Tip line 317-262- tips. American hero, Army Private First Class Benjamin Zieske. 20, Concord, California. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, parents Laurie and Robert,
stepfather Dale. Brother Sean, sister Patricia. Benjamin Zieske, American hero. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us
tonight and inviting us into your homes. Nancy Grace signing off, see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
