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Nancy Grace
Hot Car Dad Wants Courtroom Closed. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired September 14, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, the tragic death of 22- month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy. But was the tot murdered?
Damning evidence Daddy sexting six different women at the time, even sending photos of his erect penis as baby Cooper bakes dead in his car,
scratching his little face, abrasions on the back of his head as he bangs back and forth to escape. The dad of the tiny tot who bakes dead in a hot
car indicted by a secret grand jury, charges of murder.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, the daddy, Justin Ross Harris, in the courtroom as the defense fights tooth and nail to keep the courtroom
closed from the public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, the lawyers for a dad accused of intentionally leaving his toddler in a hot car are fighting to get his
hearings closed to the public.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ross Harris reportedly drove from Chick-fil-A to his place of employment. How could he have done this without seeing the
little boy in the carseat?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Oklahoma. Love hurts. Truer words were never spoken. Tonight, an Oklahoma woman stands accused of going to the funeral
home, finding the body of her husband`s dead ex as she lay there in repose, only to slash the dead woman`s face, cutting off her toe, breast and hair
and stealing her shoes! In the last hour, stunning new details emerge about the corpse slasher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During the viewing, they told the judge Simms (ph) was messing with Lynch`s (ph) makeup and rubbing her forehead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hair was removed from the decedent on the floor near the casket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then the funeral home discovered the missing toe and breast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Kansas City. Mommy leaves her two little children, ages just 4 and 6, in a shipping crate in an industrial (INAUDIBLE)
drenched with vehicle fluid, believed to be a chop shop for stolen cars, the tots found eating dry ramen noodles mixed with dirt while they say
Mommy`s out with her boyfriend. And she wonders, Why was I arrested?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two young children were living by themselves inside this cave. The floor is damp in places, very much unfinished,
dirty. The 4-year-old was holding a cup of dry ramen noodles. The cup had dirt in it, eating with the child`s hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. The tragic death of a 22-month-old toddler boy, Cooper, seemingly left alone for hours in a baking hot car by Daddy. But
was the tot murdered? Damning evidence Daddy sexting six different women, even sending photos of his erect penis, as baby Cooper bakes dead in
Daddy`s car.
Well, in the last hours, the father, Justin Ross Harris, in the courtroom as the defense fights tooth and nail to keep that courtroom
closed from the public. But we were there.
I want to go straight out to Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent, standing by, joining us from the courthouse. Nick, thanks so much for
being with us. What was the gist of what happened in court today?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, today was all about whether or not the public and the media would be allowed during the trial inside
that courtroom.
We were inside the courtroom to hear Maddox Kilgore, Justin Ross Harris`s defense attorney, lay out his arguments as to why he believes the
media should be shut out. He called some of the headlines over the course of the last 15 months, during Justin Harris`s incarceration, problematic.
He singled out our coverage on CNN and HLN saying that some of it was sensationalized. He said that this would create a problem for potential
jurors in trying to reach a fair trial, saying it was a clear and present danger to a fair trial.
GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wait!
VALENCIA: After sever hours of hearing these arguments...
GRACE: Nick! Wa-wait! Nick! Nick! Nick! Nick! Nick Valencia joining me outside the courthouse. The defense lawyer said that the
courtroom being open, so we can hear what`s going on in there, is a clear and present danger? Isn`t that a movie with Harrison Ford?
That`s not a legal precedent. That`s the name of a movie.
VALENCIA: Today, it was all about -- today, it was all about that language used by Maddox Kilgore.
GRACE: Well, what`s the danger, Nick?
VALENCIA: That`s exactly what he called it, Nancy. He said it would...
GRACE: Nick Valencia, what`s the danger...
VALENCIA: ... create a danger. He said it would...
GRACE: Of me and our viewers...
VALENCIA: It was (INAUDIBLE) problem.
GRACE: ... hearing what happened? What`s the problem? What`s the problem with the truth?
[20:00:00]VALENCIA: Well, according to him, here`s his language -- "it would create false impressions with potential jurors." And the judge
denied that pretrial motion, saying prior case law shows that in other high-profile cases, an impartial jury was able to be selected despite the
intense media coverage, Maddox Kilgore saying that the media is obsessed with this case, though he...
GRACE: Got it.
VALENCIA: ... turns out, at the end of the day, didn`t get his way, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, you know, I know Kilgore. He`s a very good lawyer. I had a couple of cases with him when I was still prosecuting murder cases.
And he was with the attorney general`s office, Nick Valencia, and they would work with me on appeals of those murder cases that I had tried and
would then be handling the appeal, I believe is how I know Maddox Kilgore - - very, very astute lawyer.
And one thing, though, I did have an issue with, Nick Valencia, is when Kilgore is trying to get the judge to close the courtroom, so you and
me and everybody interested in justice in this case can`t hear what`s going on, and he cited three cases, the case of Sydney Dorsey (ph), who was a
public official. He cited the Atlanta courthouse shooting case and the Lynn Turner (ph) poisoning case. We covered all of those.
But the bottom line is all those people got convicted. You know, I would have thought -- you know, hold on, Nick. Don`t move.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, David Windecher and Robert Schalk. Also with me, Philip Holloway joining me out of the courthouse.
You know, you would think, David Lee Windecher, that he would at least use cases where the person had been innocent, all right, had been found not
guilty, like O.J. Simpson, Robert Blake maybe, Casey Anthony. But he chose cases where the people were found guilty.
Do you think -- to you, Windecher -- he`s going to revisit this, that the judge is going to close the courtroom so nobody will know what`s going
on?
DAVID LEE WINDECHER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s going to have to retry because that`s going to be an impartial jury no matter what. Everybody in
the community knows about the case. It`s going to excite their emotions to be sympathetic about the baby dying. And it`s going to be unfortunate.
He`s not going to be able to get an impartial jury...
GRACE: But that is not...
WINDECHER: ... (INAUDIBLE) venue.
GRACE: That`s not the standard. Philip Holloway, isn`t the standard not a juror that has never heard the case, but a juror that swears under
oath that they can hear the facts and evidence and render a verdict that speaks the truth. Isn`t that true?
PHILIP HOLLOWAY, FMR. POLICE OFFICER/PROSECUTOR: And that`s exactly what the lawyers for the media, Nancy, argued in their opposition to this
motion. They said, Look, you know, Judge...
GRACE: Right.
HOLLOWAY: ... the parties can closely question all the potential jurors. They can do a thorough and sifting (ph) voir dire during jury
selection. There are other alternatives other than drastic measure of closing the courtroom in violation of the 1st Amendment.
now, Nancy, to be fair about it, there is precedent of foreclosing the courtroom, but the bar is very, very high to meet constitutional standards
because the public has a 1st Amendment interest in knowing what`s going on in the courtroom. And of course, the defendant has a right to a fair
trial. And those are the two competing legal interests.
GRACE: Nick Valencia, CNN correspondent joining us at the courthouse. Nick, I think I`ve got a pretty good reason why they want the courtroom
closed. One of the reasons is this that I`ve got right here in front of me. It`s the autopsy, the autopsy of the baby that says that he`s covered
in abrasion, including bruises on his abdomen, bruises on his hands, bruises at his left shoulder, on his neck, lividity in the little baby`s
behind, which means he was dead sitting there in the carseat. It`s very damning.
Now, let me ask you this. Nick Valencia, how many sext messages did the father send out while his baby sat in the car dying?
VALENCIA: Well, there`s no telling how many messages. We do know that he was communicating with at least six women, some of them underage.
And that was mentioned during the proceedings and has been mentioned during this court paperwork.
Many be -- maybe wondering his demeanor today. What was he acting like? We saw him walk in in his orange jumpsuit, Cobb County Jail printed
on the back of that.
GRACE: OK...
VALENCIA: He was shackled at his hands. And the only times that he ever really showed emotion was looking up intently when the prosecution, or
I should say the defense, put up images of him and his 22-month-old son, Cooper. He looked intently but really was expressionless for the majority
of the time, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, you know what? We went to the scene, and we drove the whole route in which he forgot the baby was in the back seat. It was a
long drive.
And speaking of sexting, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you uncover anything of what he was doing during that day while his child was out in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. What did you uncover?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was having up to six different conversations with different women, it appeared from the messages from Kick (ph), mostly,
which is a messaging service.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a computer-related messaging service?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is.
[20:10:00]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And these conversations he was having with these females, of what nature were they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most common term would be sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were photos being sent back and forth between these women and the defendant during this day while the child`s out in the
car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. There were photos of his exposed penis, erect penis being sent. There were also photos of women`s breasts being
sent back to him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, did you actually -- have you located every one of these girls that he`s had contact with?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you located any of them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have located two of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. The first one -- I won`t use the user name, but I guess -- let me for lack of a better term, the older one, did you
speak with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did she say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She stated that she had first met Ross, and she knew him as Ross through Scout (ph), which is another messaging service,
and that he had met up and that he wanted to hook up with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did she talk to you and confirm the nature of what you saw on these chats back and forth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Now, I`m going to turn your attention -- was there also another girl that you met and that you have spoken with?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how old is that girl?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is 17 at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Philip Holloway, David Lee Windecher, Robert Schalk. First to you, Robert Schalk. So while this baby is sitting
out in the car baking, baking, temperatures inside that car going up to 135 degrees, the baby clawing at its face, kicking, hitting its head back,
fighting with his shoulder strap, bruises on the abdomen where it tried to get out -- he is sending photos of his naked penis, his erect penis, to all
of his girlfriends?
Did you hear that, Schalk? Do I need to repeat it again? I hope not.
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you don`t need to...
GRACE: So what`s your defense?
SCHALK: Kilgore needs to try to separate the two things. He needs to make a pretrial application to the court...
GRACE: He did.
SCHALK: ... and say, We need to separate these two causes of action.
GRACE: But it`s not going to happen because here`s my question, Schalk, and I`ll tell you why it`s not going to happen. I hear you. I
agree with you. That`s what he should do. That`s what he did.
But he cannot separate. You know why? Because it was happening during the death. If he had been sexting the night before or sexting after
the death, you might have a chance. But he was doing this as the child is sitting out in the car, dying. That is incident to the death. That`s not
going to be thrown out.
SCHALK: It`s more likely than not not going to be thrown out, and then I think what`s going to happen is you`ll see Kilgore shift gears and
just use these as a continuous -- it`s not a murder. It`s a -- it`s negligence. He was overly distracted with work and these other messaging
apps. Again, the evidence is very strong against them. He needs to play all the cards, and you know, he`s playing them appropriately.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:16:56]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... conversations he was having with these females, were these -- of what nature were they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most common term would be sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From this vantage point, every time I turn to my right, there`s the carseat, there`s the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He visited several sites, and the subreddits -- it was "people who die."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the last hours, the father of baby Cooper Harris in court. He is accused of letting the child bake in a hot car until his death, all
the while sexting to multiple women not his wife. That`s not a crime, of course, sending pictures of your erect penis, not a crime. However, if
this was planned, then it was the crime.
Isn`t that true, Mike Duffy, joining me also at the courthouse with Nick Valencia and Philip Holloway. Mike Duffy, isn`t it true -- and Liz,
if you wouldn`t mind pulling this up after we do the drive-along.
Isn`t it true that he had -- the father, Justin Ross Harris -- gone onto a Web site called ChildFree and learned about your life after getting
rid of your children, and about how to survive prison, and going to a Web site where a veterinarian showed you -- got in a hot car and showed you
what an animal or small child would go through dying in a hot car.
He had just looked at that prior to the baby`s death in a hot car!
MIKE DUFFY, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, that is the evidence that we had been hearing. Some controversy today in court when the defense
did say that perhaps some of those arguments were overblown. We`re going to hear more in the days to come.
GRACE: Arguments overblown. I`m not quite sure what you mean by those arguments overblown. But hold on, Mike Duffy. I want to show the
viewers the ride-along we did. We followed in the father`s footsteps his ride from Chick-fil-A, where the little baby was spotted alive and well by
Chick-fil-A employees. He was alive then. But then what happened?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day Cooper Harris died, Ross Harris reportedly drove from Chick-fil-A to his place of employment. Now, one question on
many people`s minds is, how could he have done this without seeing the little boy in the carseat?
Our reenactment of this drive took under two minutes. But during that time, we identified three instances when Ross Harris would have likely had
to look to the right over his shoulder, and the carseat would have entered his field of vision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mike Duffy, that is so critical because every time, as you pointed out, that he looked over his shoulder -- and you were doing that
drive that we just showed -- he would have to turn right and he would have to see baby Cooper. Every time. Is that correct, Mike Duffy?
DUFFY: That is correct, Nancy. And I think one of the most interesting things is that carseat was literally right in between the
passenger seat and the driver`s seat, and my arm was touching it almost every single time we turned.
[20:00:03]GRACE: And not only that, unless the baby was asleep -- when he was not asleep, according to Chick-fil-A employees, the baby had to
be talking or something, babbling, in the back seat.
I want you to take a look at another video we know Justin Ross Harris visited just before his baby was found baked dead in the back seat.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m at five minutes in. It is unbelievably hot in here. We`re nearing 100 degrees already. Ten minutes in. I`ll tell you,
it is almost unbearable. At this point, the temperature is about 106 degrees. 15 minutes now, and it`s about 110 in my car. 20 minutes now at
this point, and it is right -- hovering right around 110, 112.
25 minutes, it`s now -- oh, gosh, what is it, 113 degrees. 30 minutes, 30 minutes in a parked car with the windows cracked. The
temperature right now is about 115, 116 -- really hot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is veterinarian Dr. Ernie Ward (ph), and that was a YouTube or a posting that he put on line to warn pet owners not to leave
their animals in the car when it gets so hot. He was in there at 115 degrees. The car this baby was in was 135 degrees when police got into it.
Joining me right now is a former friend of Justin Ross Harris, the father. It`s Chris Wilkinson. Chris, thank you for being with us.
CHRIS WILKINSON, FMR. FRIEND OF JUSTIN ROSS HARRIS: Thanks for having me again, Nancy.
GRACE: I really appreciate you being with us because it`s hard for me to understand, with the baby babbling in the back seat, him seeing the baby
every time he took a right turn -- that trip from Chick-fil-A was just a matter of minutes, under five minutes. How could he forget?
Why do you believe Justin Ross Harris logged on to see Dr. Ernie Ward talking about how dogs or small children can die in a hot car just before
his baby dies in his hot car?
WILKINSON: Well, Nancy, if you believe what the prosecutor says, you know, it would seem that Ross was trying to figure out exactly what needed
to happen to harm Cooper. Personally, I just -- there`s no comprehensible reason why someone would do that, to me. And it doesn`t juxtapose with the
guy I know, but...
GRACE: Tell me. Tell me about the guy you know. I really want to hear that. I want to believe this is an accident. But I don`t. And I
want to know why -- do you think it was an accident?
WILKINSON: Well, you know, I don`t understand how anyone, you know, that has children could be irresponsible like that. I know the
psychologists say there is a syndrome, but I just really don`t know what I think about that. And you know...
GRACE: Well, do you believe...
WILKINSON: ... if it was an accident...
GRACE: ... that he was sexting underage teens and sending pictures of his body parts?
WILKINSON: Absolutely not.
GRACE: Yes, I mean, what we know...
WILKINSON: You know, when I hear that -- when I hear that, then kind of everything else sort of is able to come into play as being a
possibility. And so you know, nobody wants to think anyone would hurt their child. But it`s -- it doesn`t look very good for this situation,
I`ll just say that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:27:47]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would take less than a minute before Harris would finally reach his destination at work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As Harris is charged with killing his son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question remains, is this enough time to forget a child?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So Mike Duffy and Nick Valencia joining me there at the courthouse. In the last hours, the defendant in court, his lawyers
fighting tooth and nail to keep that courtroom closed so we don`t hear the evidence.
So Mike Duffy, I don`t think the state`s allegations have changed from the get-go. But what is their allegation as to what happened?
DUFFY: Well, Nancy, Justin Ross Harris was supposed to take little Cooper to day care that morning. First he brought him to the Chick-fil-A
near where he worked, and then he was supposed to drive him to the day care, which was just less than a mile away.
Instead, he took Cooper to his place of employment, allegedly forgetting Cooper in the back seat of his car, and that`s where little
Cooper met his fate in that hot car on that day, where it reached almost 130 degrees.
GRACE: And to Philip Holloway, former police officer, former prosecutor, also in court today to see all of this unfold. There`s a lot
more to it than those barebone facts. Mike Duffy is absolutely correct, but there`s more to it. What else do you see is critical to the state`s
argument?
HOLLOWAY: Well, Nancy, as you know, all we saw at the probable cause hearing last summer was just a preview of what the state`s evidence was at
that time. There was a lot of things that were developed since then. We have seen literally reams and reams and reams of information passed to the
defense in the form of pretrial discovery materials.
What is contained in those materials is what we don`t know yet, and that`s what will be developed during these motions hearings as they play
themselves out in court, and ultimately at trial. So we really don`t know what the rest of the story is, but we will find out.
GRACE: Well, I know one thing. I know one thing, and that is he actually goes to his car at lunchtime, all right? Remember that, guys?
Nick Valencia, are you still with me? Doesn`t Justin Ross Harris at lunchtime leave -- he works for a Home Depot off site at one of their
corporate offices called the Tree House. So he leaves his office. He goes out to his car. His child, I`m sure, is dead by then, right? He`s been in
the car at least four hours. And he doesn`t...
(CROSSTALK)
VALENCIA: ... the prosecution is making.
[20:30:00]
GRACE: Tell me. Tell me about him going to the car at lunch time, with the baby in the car!
VALENCIA: This is hours after he left little Cooper Harris in the car, that 22-month-old toddler. And the temperature no less than 120
degrees, and the point being made by prosecutors is that there is absolutely no way as he opens that car door up, tosses some light bulbs
that he bought at a nearby store into his car, that there`s absolutely no way he would have not smelled that body that had been baking in the sun for
hours.
After seven hours, he leaves the car -- he leaves his workplace, and it`s just about a mile or so after he leaves his workplace that he
realizes, according to his testimony, that he had left his son in the back of the car. He gets out. Witnesses say he`s hysterical, he`s saying my
baby is in the car, it`s dead. And that`s when police investigators show up. But it`s his actions afterwards, Nancy. It`s the suspicious nature,
prosecutors say, the state alleges, after he found his baby, and the conversations between -- that he had with his wife Leanna, as well. That`s
another pretrial motion the defense is going to introduce. They want a private conversation between Justin Ross Harris and Leanna Harris they had
while Harris was in custody, they want that thrown out. They don`t believe--
GRACE: That`s not going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Nick, I`ll tell you why that`s not going to happen, okay? True, they were legally married. That`s the mother of this little baby.
True, they`ve got the marital privilege. Husband and wife, any communications between husband and wife, one cannot testify against the
other in court. Except in this jurisdiction and many others around the country, there is an exception to that. If it goes to abusing or hurting a
child or abusing or hurting a spouse, you can`t gag the spouse from telling the truth. So that is not going to fly. It`s not going to happen. But
the defense lawyers got to try it.
To Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil, assistant professor, NYU School of Medicine, give me an estimate, with a child dying in a car in the morning,
when would that body begin to decompose to the point that when the father comes in after lunch time he can smell the decomposition?
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Well, there might not have been a smell in this case. Because it actually takes -- can take up to several days. But in a hot
environment, it can happen much faster, so a couple of hours. But nevertheless, you know, unless he had some other type of disorder,
psychological or neurological, he should notice the child in the back seat.
GRACE: Well, of course. And I notice you said a couple of hours. Ben Levitan, I think that the texts are going to play a critical role in
this. Because many people argue, Ben Levitan, that he really went to the car not to put some light bulbs in the car to take home later, but he went
out there to see if the baby was dead, to confirm the baby was dead. That`s what many people believe. The texting and the e-mails -- e-mails
back and forth to co-workers and so forth, did he really need to go buy light bulbs? What did he say? And the timing of these are going to be
critical. What do you say, Ben Levitan? What can you make of it?
LEVITAN: Well, Nancy, we know if he was texting back and forth, the phone companies have kept an exact record where he was when he made those
texts and who he texted, who he may have sent messages to. What we may not have is the content of those text messages. The content only exists on the
two phones, and it`s stored at the phone company just for a short period of time.
But Nancy, we should be able to get those -- police generally when something like this happens, goes to the phone company and preserves the
records. We may actually get those text messages and find out what he was texting back and forth about, Nancy.
Remember, we have got three shots that could be at either phone or it could be at the phone company. If he was indeed confirming that he saw the
child and the child was dead, that`s your smoking gun right there, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:40]
GRACE: Live to Oklahoma, love hurts. Truer words were never spoken. Tonight, an Oklahoma woman stands accused of going to the funeral home,
finding the body of her husband`s dead ex-girlfriend as she lie there in repose, only to slash the dead woman`s face, cut off her toe, cut off her
breast, tear out her hair, and steal her shoes. In the last hours, stunning new details emerging about the corpse slasher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One witness said at one point during the viewing, Sims (ph) showed them cell phone pictures of Lynch`s naked corpse. Lynch`s
mother told the judge during her daughter`s viewing, she had to tell Sims to stop rubbing the makeup off her daughter`s eye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is so hard for me to understand. So with me, special guest Sergeant Shane Tuell from the Tulsa police department, and also with
me, Julie Nixon, the sister-in-law of the victim in this case. To you, Sergeant Tuel, thank you for being with us. It`s so hard for me to take
in. What is the connection between the perpetrator, the alleged perpetrator, the female here, and Shayna Sims and the victim dead in her
casket? Tabitha Lynch? How are they connected, Sergeant?
SGT SHANE TUELL, TULSA PD: Well, thank you for having me back again.
[20:40:00]
What we have found out is that Shayna Sims, the suspect in this case, is currently dating an individual that she believes was in a relationship with
the victim, the decedent, Tabitha Lynch. She believed that Tabitha, before her death, was trying to seek some type of a relationship with her current
boyfriend, which the family disputes.
GRACE: Okay. So all of this is over a boyfriend.
TUELL: Correct.
GRACE: Okay. Now that I understand that, Sergeant Tuell, thank you for clearing that up. So what is the allegation, Sergeant Tuell, that the
woman, Shayna Sims, now 27, sneaks into the funeral home? Didn`t it just come out in court, Sergeant, that she was posing as, for instance, a makeup
artist? That she was going to make the dead victim look better in her coffin?
TUELL: You know, that`s what came out after some friends of the deceased found Shayna in there by herself with Tabitha Lynch`s body, and
she told friends she was there to try to fix the makeup. So at that point, that`s when that information had come out. Now, how she gained access into
the funeral home, I`m unsure if she was able to use that ruse as well with the staff there.
GRACE: But that`s not what she did, Julian Nixon, sister-in-law of the victim, Tabitha Lynch, who cannot even die and be disposed of,
memorialized in peace, without this woman coming out of nowhere and attacking her body. Julian Nixon, how did she get in there and say -- I`m
not blaming the funeral home, all right? I`m sure they had no idea this was going to go on. What did she do to the victim? Your sister-in-law?
JULIAN NIXON, SISTER IN LAW OF VICTIM: Well, she went in there saying that, you know -- it was just a viewing. It was public viewing. So she
just went in there, just to view the body. And there was -- it was towards the end of the day, so there weren`t very many people in there. And she
just got a moment alone with her and took pictures and cut her and just desecrated her body, really.
GRACE: Oh!
NIXON: She violated us. And so not only Tabitha`s body, but we feel so violated.
GRACE: To the family -- to the family. To Tabitha`s family. Sergeant Shane Tuell, it also came out in court that the suspect actually
reportedly took pictures of the girl`s dead body? And what she was doing to the body and sent them to her boyfriend? They were discovered on his
cell phone or sent to him? Did that come out in court?
TUELL: Yes, ma`am, it did. The detective that was assigned to the case had contact with the suspect, Shayna Sims`, boyfriend, and he was able
to provide photographs on his phone that Shayna Sims allegedly took during the acts of defiling the body of Tabitha Lynch.
GRACE: With me psychologist Greg Cason, defense attorney Robert Schalk out of New York, David Lee Windecher out of Atlanta. Greg Cason,
there is nothing better to make yourself attractive to a guy you`re dating than to take pictures of his dead ex-girlfriend in the casket and you`re
slashing her body. I`ve never heard of anything like it in my life.
CASON: Well, I think you`re on to something. I think that`s exactly what she did want. She suffered from a case of something we call
retroactive jealousy. And it`s not unlike stalking or any kind of obsession --
GRACE: Retroactive jealousy. That`s a new one on me. Retroactive jealousy. So you`re jealous of all the fun you think they had before she
died?
CASON: Exactly, exactly. And it`s a current threat on the relationship.
GRACE: Do you really think I`m going on with that? Because I`m not.
CASON: She thinks it`s something that is going to threaten her relationship right now.
GRACE: The woman is dead!
(CROSSTALK)
CASON: I know. That`s what you and I know and that`s what you and I think, but that isn`t what she thinks. She thinks that a body is going to
cause the death -- cause the death of her relationship. So she has to get rid of the beauty of that body, because you saw, she`s a beautiful woman.
She had to desecrate it.
GRACE: The end of her relationship is her sending these pictures to her boyfriend, Schalk. That would be the end of the relationship.
CASON: Retroactive jealousy.
SCHALK: One would hope. One would hope.
GRACE: Okay, Windecher, you`re sitting there like you don`t believe this. Did you see these pictures? Did you hear the sergeant, Sergeant
Tuell, say what happened? Not only did she cut off the dead lady`s breast, her toe, yank a bunch of hair out and throw it down to disfigure her -- we
know psychologically to tear out a woman`s hair or cut her hair is a sort of disfigurement. Cut off her toe, cut off her breast, slashed her
hairline from her nose up. Yank off her hair. She`s going to jail.
[20:45:00]
And then send the pictures to her lover, her boyfriend.
WINDECHER: There comes a time in every defense attorney`s life he has to concede. Unless she is found incompetent, the best thing he can do here
for her as an attorney is get her due process, get her a good plea deal or get her a fair trial. Otherwise, it`s going to be really difficult. They
found all that evidence on her. I`m stumped here.
GRACE: As of tonight, these are allegations. She still remains innocent until proven guilty.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:00]
GRACE: Live Kansas City, mommy leaves her two children ages 4 and 6 in a shipping crate in an industrial keg drenched with vehicle fluid. It
was believed to have been a chop shop for stolen cars. The tots were found eating dirty dry Ramen noodles mixed with dirt. While basically mommy was
out with her boyfriend, and she wonders tonight, why was I arrested?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children were living in the cave for several days. They were in a wooden crate that was about 10 feet by 8 feet. The
children did not have shoes, water, or toys. It`s big, wide open and kind of echoey. Very much unfinished, dirty, definitely not a place you would
want to spend a lot of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Investigative reporter Meredyth Censullo, investigators were going there because they were trying to find out if this was being used as
a chop shop where you take stolen cars, you chop them up, and resell them. And what did they find, Meredyth? Let`s see a shot of mommy.
CENSULLO: Right. While the deputies were serving a search warrant as part of that investigation, they were at an auto repair shop called
Underground Diesel. And when they entered the shop, they actually saw the boys, who were playing in and around that wooden crate that you have been
talking about, and they approached the children and found that there was no parent, no adult near them. So obviously they questioned the children
about where mommy was. They said mommy left.
GRACE: Hold on just a moment. Okay. Stacy Newman. Mommy had enough money to go get her hair done, although I would not have chosen that
particular color. She had time to go do that. She had money to do that. She was somewhere with her boyfriend. But she -- okay. Saw it. Stacy?
She gave her children dirty Ramen noodles, dry? Do you know what Ramen noodles are? Have you eaten them?
NEWMAN: We all Ramen noodles in college, yes.
GRACE: I still eat them, and the twins love them. Put her back up. But dry Ramen noodles with dirt? Mixed with dirt? A 4-year-old and a 6-
year-old. I don`t even let the twins answer the door by themselves, and they are in a cart about the size I guess of a train cart, alone, at night,
eating dirt and Ramen noodles?
NEWMAN: They also were also completely barefoot, they were covered in dirt from head to toe, but Nancy, a friend of this mom who owns this
business called Underground Diesel said he doesn`t know what the big deal is. This is a man cave for kids, and they wanted to be there.
GRACE: Who said that? Who said that, Stacy?
NEWMAN: The friends of the mom`s who owns this Underground Diesel company where the kids were playing.
GRACE: Stacy, look at your monitor. Look, Stacy, this is what they are saying is a fun place and a man cave for children?
NEWMAN: Yep. And the kids used to play around, there were toys down there, there is a dog down there.
GRACE: What toys? There were no toys, there were no dogs and there was no food, no shoes, and no mommy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:30]
GRACE: Liz, can you please show the video, take me down and show the viewers the inside of where a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old child were left,
and what police were investigating as a chop shop for stolen cars. Stacy Newman, what does the mother have to say for herself, leaving the children
there, two little boys, alone, eating dry Ramen noodles mixed with dirt? What is her defense?
NEWMAN: She said she didn`t leave them there, but the same friend who called this place the man cave, had cut his hand at work and had to run out
to the hospital. She took him to the hospital and said she left the two boys in the care of other adults at the workplace.
GRACE: What workplace? This cave is the workplace?
NEWMAN: Yes. This is a place where companies have storage units and there are also some businesses there. This is a truck repair company
called Underground Diesel. That`s where they work. And that`s where the kids were found alone.
GRACE: I thought they were in a shipping crate, Stacy.
NEWMAN: The shipping crate was inside the cave. It was like a box within a cave.
GRACE: Her story is -- let me understand this. Meredyth Censullo, the mother is saying she actually left the children with other people?
CENSULLO: Right. That`s what she is saying. There were other adults there when she actually left the boys. You can actually see some
surveillance video of her there, running out the door I guess after the guy cut his hand. So you can actually see her on that tape, but that`s what
she was saying that there were other adults there.
GRACE: Did you see any other adults leaving, Meredyth, after her? Were there other adults there?
CENSULLO: In various parts of the videotape, you can see other adults wandering around. As far as the timeline of whether or not they were there
--
GRACE: We will find out. Let`s stop and remember American hero, Marine Sergeant Edward Davis III, 31, Antioch, Illinois. Purple Heart and
National Defense Service Medal. Deep dimples, made everybody laugh. Grieving parents, two brothers, three sisters, widow Prina, daughters
Priscilla and Alicia, son Edward IV. Edward Davis III, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but tonight, our big thank you is to you for inviting all of us into your home. Nancy Grace signing off. See you
tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
