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Nancy Grace
Boston Baby Doe ID`d, Two Charged. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired September 21, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Mystery as the body of a little girl toddler just a few months from her 3rd birthday washes ashore.
One nationwide publicity campaign, joined here on our program, and 60 million social media views later, a single person`s brave act helps ID the
girl tot known only as Baby Doe, now revealed to be toddler Bella Bond, just 34 months old, wrapped in a zebra print blanket wearing polka dot
leggings. Police track down the tot`s ID, even using pollen and dirt samples in the trash bag containing little Bella`s body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her name was Bella.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say she was murdered, punched several times in the stomach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kept in a refrigerator after she was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then dumped her body in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We allege that McCarthy caused Bella`s death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "My children are trying to kill me" -- the dramatic 911 call a mother makes as her two beloved sons try to kill her and their father by
poisoning their dinner, stabbing, shooting and burning them up! Breaking now. After we obtain the chilling 911 call, in the last hours, the case
makes a bizarre twist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My children are trying to kill me. They`ve attacked me and my husband. They drugged us with Xanax. And they`re
headed upstairs now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, killer peanut butter hits the shelves in 46 states. Was poisonous peanut butter stocked in groceries on purpose?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: With nine deaths now linked to the salmonella outbreak, hundreds sickened.
CASAREZ: The problem traced to the Peanut Corporation of America in Blakely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I respectfully decline to answer your question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This company cared more about its financial bottom line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Mystery as the body of a little girl toddler just a few months from her 3rd birthday washes ashore. One nationwide publicity
campaign, joined by our program, and 60 million social media views later, a single person`s brave act helps ID this girl tot known only as Baby Doe,
now revealed to be toddler Bella Bond, just 34 months old, wrapped in a zebra print blanket, wearing polka dot Circa (ph) leggings. Police track
down the toddler`s ID, even using pollen and dirt samples they find in that trash bag containing little Bella`s body.
Straight out to Jean Casarez joining us, CNN correspondent. Jean, this has been overwhelming. You know, after we put this story on the air,
there were 60 million views of the creation of a photo, a computer- generated creation, along with an artist, to recreate what the dead child looked like.
And now we know this is the baby. This is Baby Doe. This is Bella Bond. Jean, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How precise those forensic images are compared to the real little Bella.
What we learned, graphic details in court today. And this all came about five days. The prosecutor`s office has had five days of
investigation because just as you said, finally, a man who was a friend, actually, of the boyfriend, defendant Michael McCarthy, said to the mother,
You know, isn`t it wonderful you stopped doing drugs -- this is Bella`s mother -- because now you can get Bella back.
She said, No, I can`t. Bella is dead. And he was alarmed because the boyfriend defendant had kept saying that Bella was with the Department of
Children and Families. So that friend who had lived in that home and had witnessed abuse of Bella...
GRACE: Awful! Awful!
CASAREZ: He then went to his sister -- they looked on line and saw the image, Nancy, one of those 60 million people, after you put that image
on the air, that saw her. And they then called the police, the Boston Police Department, and said what they knew.
The mother is now really saying a lot about what happened -- chiefly, that the boyfriend said he was going to quiet down Bella when she wouldn`t
go to sleep one night. The mother came into the bedroom a little bit later, and Bella was dead.
[20:05:04]GRACE: You know, I think her story is a lie, Jean Casarez - - Jean joining us, CNN correspondent, along with Laura Crimaldi, reporter with "The Boston Globe" who just came out of the courtroom.
You know, the way this whole thing has unfolded, Laura Crimaldi, we`re now learning that the mom had this boyfriend, McCarthy. McCarthy lived in
the home or stayed there all the time with them.
What is the mother`s story exactly, as we know it tonight, Laura?
LAURA CRIMALDI, "BOSTON GLOBE": What Rachelle Bond has told investigators is that one evening, Bella was having trouble going to sleep,
was resisting going to sleep, and so that she says that Michael McCarthy volunteered to quiet her down. And what prosecutors allege is that when
Rachelle Bond went back into this bedroom to check on Bella, her face was gray, and Rachelle Bond knew at that moment that her little daughter had
died.
And at some point, they put the girl in the trash bag. Prosecutors say they then put it in a refrigerator and go on some sort of heroin
binge...
GRACE: Oh!
CRIMALDI: ... that lasts for an undetermined amount of time...
GRACE: You know, Laura...
CRIMALDI: ... and some time after that...
GRACE: ... I want to backtrack to what you just said. You said that baby Bella -- she`s not even 3 years old. Of course she has trouble going
to sleep. All babies don`t want to go to sleep. When they know somebody else is up, they want to stay up, too. Who would want to go to sleep in
the middle of a party or your parents being up?
You`re seeing video we have obtained of baby Bella from Facebook. This is around the time of her 2nd birthday. She almost made it to her 3rd
birthday, but not quite.
And according to the mother -- the mother, Rachelle Bond, who`s already had two children taken away from her, FYI -- she hears baby Bella
not going to sleep. The boyfriend, pictured right there -- there`s the mother. I mean, does she not look like the evil stepmother? She`s the
natural mother here. And I know she keeps acting like she`s rubbing her eyes with tears, but you never see any tears.
So her story -- let me understand this, Jean Casarez. She says that the boyfriend, the live-in, goes in to check on her, then everything gets
quiet and she goes in there. When she goes in there, the baby`s face is gray?
That`s not possible. If the child was dead, it would not take on that pallor immediately. If the child were dead that quickly, the child would
still look as if, for instance, it was asleep, Jean.
CASAREZ: And that is why I could swear I thought she said red, that the baby`s face was red when she walked in the room. But no, she said
gray.
GRACE: It`s a lie.
CASAREZ: That`s a fine point, Nancy. You nailed it. You hit it on the head. She goes on to say that the boyfriend then got a contractor`s
bag, which is a heavy duty plastic bag, and put the baby in it and put the baby in the refrigerator.
GRACE: What? (INAUDIBLE)
CASAREZ: She`s say she had no responsibility at all for that.
GRACE: Jean! Jean! What do you think I would do if somebody tried to put my child in a bag? She can try to blame this boyfriend all she
wants to, but if she sat by and let this happen to her child, and then the child -- we`re putting her picture out, putting her picture out, trying to
find out -- and Jean, there was a big billboard on the highway and it said, "Did you know me?" And it has her computer-generated picture -- "Did you
know me?" Who am I, asking people to please -- that just breaks my heart! Please tell police my name. Please tell police my name.
Take a listen to what just happened in court. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Bond indicated that one night, when Bella -- at approximately 11:30, she believed it to have been late May before Mr.
Bond`s birthday on May 29th -- Bella was unwilling to go to bed and was unruly. Mr. McCarthy said that he would go into her back bedroom and try
to calm her down.
From what -- Ms. Bond then didn`t hear any noise for some time from the back bedroom, and went in to check on what was going on. She found Mr.
McCarthy standing over Bella, who was on a bed -- which the mattress was on the floor -- standing over Bella with his hand near her abdomen. And when
Ms. Bond looked at Bella, her head appeared to her to be swollen and her face was gray.
She went to her daughter and picked her up, and she told police that she knew at that moment that her daughter was dead. She asked Mr. McCarthy
what he had done, and he did not tell her. But he said, She was a demon anyway, it was her time to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Alex Sanchez, renowned defense attorney out of New York. Also with me, veteran defense attorney
Randy Kessler out of Atlanta.
[20:10:08]All right, Sanchez, what`s your defense?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, as egregious as this case is, I think it`s going to be hard for the prosecution to get a conviction
either against this fellow or the actual mother.
GRACE: Why?
SANCHEZ: First of all, regarding the stepfather or whatever he is, there doesn`t seem to be any independent evidence that he did anything
against this child, except the testimony of the woman. And as far as she goes, she didn`t make an actual confession of guilt. She`s blaming him.
The prosecution indicted both of these people for one reason, and that`s to have one of them turn against the other. That is the only way...
GRACE: That`s not true.
SANCHEZ: ... they`re going to get a conviction.
GRACE: That is not true. So you`re telling me -- let`s follow through your assertion that neither can be pinpointed with the murder. All
right, so your assertion would say that the baby was fine. The mother could hear the baby being fussy and not going to sleep. And then the
boyfriend, the live-in, goes in there. The mom follows, and suddenly, the baby is dead.
SANCHEZ: Right. So...
GRACE: By what, natural causes?
SANCHEZ: No, what is the evidence against him? Let`s talk about him first.
GRACE: No, I`m telling you -- you said it can`t be pinned on them. They`re alone in the home. That`s a given. They`re alone, just the three
of them. The baby is alive and fussy. She can hear the baby. The boyfriend goes in there, the mom follows, the baby`s dead and the
boyfriend...
SANCHEZ: Yes, but...
GRACE: ... is standing there, and he says she was a demon anyway.
SANCHEZ: The problem is, you don`t know who`s guilty. You don`t know who`s guilty.
GRACE: No! No! The problem is...
SANCHEZ: You don`t know if she`s guilty, you don`t know if he`s guilty.
GRACE: ... this is not an accidental death.
SANCHEZ: It may not be...
GRACE: If it`s just the three of them, then who did it?
SANCHEZ: Right. Right. May not be accidental...
GRACE: The baby commit suicide?
SANCHEZ: But you can`t convict somebody simply because they`re in the company of another person that committed a crime.
GRACE: Yes, you can. Yes, you can.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... because just common sense, Kessler, common sense. You can`t go with what Sanchez just said because it`s a baby. Somebody killed
the baby. It`s just the three of them.
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s no question somebody killed the baby, but you can`t convict on common sense. You can`t just say common
sense says he did it. You need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Look, horrific facts, horrible situation...
GRACE: OK, let me ask you something, Kessler...
KESSLER: ... but don`t confuse identification with bad facts.
GRACE: No, Kessler -- Kessler, Kessler, listen. Put him up, please. Please. Kessler, the baby is alone with the mother and the father -- the
stepfather, the boyfriend. Let`s forget that the two other children have already been taken away by the maternal grandmother and another relative...
KESSLER: That`s irrelevant. That`s irrelevant.
GRACE: ... because she can`t raise a child. But fine. We`re not going to talk about that.
KESSLER: But you just did.
GRACE: The three of them are alone -- yes, well, I`m not in a court of law. I`m in the real world, all right, where there`s no rules of
evidence, where we can just state the truth as we know it.
KESSLER: Right. Well, we don`t have rules of evidence...
GRACE: So the mother...
KESSLER: ... and burden of proof.
GRACE: ... the boyfriend and baby is there. They`re all three there. The baby dies. It`s not an accidental death.
KESSLER: Right.
GRACE: That leaves two adults. Are you telling me that`s not enough for a jury to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that one of them did it?
KESSLER: Without being in a courtroom and without the rules of evidence, yes, it looks bad. No question it looks bad. But you`ve got to
make sure you identify the right person, and you have to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt because the worst thing that could happen is to convict
the wrong person.
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you another question...
KESSLER: If somebody`s innocent, they should not go to jail.
GRACE: Based on what Laura Crimaldi and Jean Casarez have just told us. Why would the boyfriend, the live-in, want to put the baby`s body in a
trash bag in the fridge if he hadn`t just killed the baby?
KESSLER: Isn`t that after the fact? Maybe he thought he was going to be found guilty? Maybe he was worried about being...
GRACE: Put him back up, please!
KESSLER: ... accused of something that he didn`t do. Who knows why people act like that...
GRACE: Yes, it`s after the fact.
KESSLER: ... but that`s not proof that he did it.
GRACE: But the two of you, you`re veteran trial lawyers, Sanchez. Both of you know that the judge is going to instruct the jury that they can
take into account evidence before, during and after the crime, including putting this baby`s body in a bag in the refrigerator!
SANCHEZ: Well, they may be...
GRACE: Why would they do that...
SANCHEZ: Nancy...
GRACE: ... if they didn`t kill the baby!
SANCHEZ: Nancy, they may be guilty of committing other crimes, like disposing of a body. But the crime of murder is going to be a lot more
difficult for them to prosecute...
GRACE: Well, why would you dispose of the body...
SANCHEZ: ... either of them.
GRACE: ... if you didn`t do the murder, Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: For the very reasons that Kessler just said. They may have been worried. She has a history of drugs. There`s obviously psychological
issues going on there. But we don`t know who is precisely responsible for the murder, and that`s important in a court of law.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:18:24]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girl next door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God, Bella. This whole time, I didn`t know. She was always happy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy 2nd birthday, monkey!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bella`s mother, Rachelle Bond, says her boyfriend punched the almost 3-year-old girl several times in the stomach, causing
her death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her short life ended we believe by an act of violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Justin Freiman also on the story, along with "Boston Globe`s" Laura Crimaldi and CNN correspondent Jean Casarez. As of right now, the
mother is not charged with murder, is she, Justin.
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. She is not. She says all she had anything to do with was getting
rid of the body, and that she hadn`t told anybody.
GRACE: OK, but Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent joining us -- didn`t she lie to people, Jean? Didn`t when people ask, Where`s Bella, where`s
the baby, she would tell them DFACS took the baby?
CASAREZ: There were a lot of lies going on. And we know, in fact, that this friend, the good friend that lived with them for a while -- the
father kept saying to him, the child is with Department of Children and Families.
And so finally, when the good friend said to the mother, Oh, you stopped using drugs. That`s wonderful. Now you can get the baby back.
She burst into tears and said, I can`t because the baby is dead.
And that is what then led to authorities, Boston Police, realizing that this was Bella. That was the beginning.
GRACE: Take a listen -- Laura Crimaldi, just out of the courtroom -- Laura, what kind of an impression did the mother and the live-in make?
[20:20:00]CRIMALDI: I think there was a lot of interest in seeing who these individuals were for the first time. Michael McCarthy was pretty
stone-faced during his court appearance. As you noted earlier, Rachelle Bond did seem to rub at her eyes, but otherwise, there was no situation
where either one of them were overcome by emotion when the prosecutor was laying out the allegations against them.
GRACE: Just like you said, Laura. There you go.
Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation -- you know, why do they always rub their eyes to make themselves cry?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: I have no idea. What I do know, though, Nancy, is in my world, it`s totally irrelevant that this woman has
a criminal history that goes back 16 years, that it`s for a series of really sordid crimes, the fact that she`s had two children taken away from
her before.
This girl was not only -- was not only abandoned by those who knew her and should have loved her, but by the Department of Children and Families,
as well. I`d really like to know how they came to the conclusion that this horrible woman who couldn`t raise children, who had this horrible history,
was somehow able to hold onto little Bella to bring her to this end.
GRACE: Marc -- let me put Marc up. Marc Klaas, I know every single day of your life, you want Polly back, every single day. Do you know what
this mother, according to DFACS, would do when the baby would, according to them, be naughty? I mean, how could a 2-year-old be naughty, really, OK?
They would lock the baby in a closet for hours on end with the baby screaming and crying to get out. Can you imagine?
KLAAS: It`s evil. It`s pure evil.
GRACE: Pure evil. Take a listen to what just happened in the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that time, not knowing what to do, she allowed Mr. McCarthy to get a contractor bag. She presumed that he put Bella`s
body in the bag, which he then put in the refrigerator. And she assumed that because the body was no longer in the back bedroom.
Ms. Bond reports that Mr. McCarthy then brought a large quantity of heroin into the apartment, injected it into her neck. It`s unclear whether
that was with our without her consent. But in any event, it appears that they became highly intoxicated for a period of several days and perhaps
longer.
Eventually, Mr. McCarthy told Ms. Bond that they would take the girl`s body and dump it in Boston Harbor. So he put the plastic bag into a duffle
bag, which he put into the trunk of his car and drove to an area near the South Boston seaport.
She reports that he took weights, put them in the bag, and then dumped her body in the water.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:27:02]UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chubby-cheeked, brown-eyed angel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bella Bond was a true innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She didn`t deserve to be thrown away in the trash.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said she was a demon anyway, it was her time to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is special guest Archie Dutrizac, a former neighbor of Bella`s mother.
For those of you just joining us, this little girl was almost 3 years old. On the right is an artist and computer rendering after the remains of
a baby girl were found seemingly washed ashore on Deer Island in the Boston Harbor.
After extensive searches, 60 million views of that generated picture, Baby Doe ID`d as nearly 3-year-old Bella Bond.
Archie, thank you so much for being with us.
ARCHIE DUTRIZAC, FMR. NEIGHBOR (via telephone): Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Hello, Archie. Thanks a lot for being with us. You were the mother, Rachelle Bond`s, neighbor. What did you witness? Did you witness
yelling or hitting or any type of mistreatment?
DUTRIZAC: Yes. Yes, we -- she just had moved in at the time. And like, months went by, and my wife started, you know, hanging around with
her and visiting with her a few times. She witnessed her grabbing her first child, was named Jaden (ph) -- literally, like, rip her arm up and
spank her on her butt real hard and chase her with a spoon, and all because the little girl at the time -- she must have been at least 2, 3 at the time
-- knocked over a glass of milk.
GRACE: You know, Archie Dutrizac, that just hurts me so badly to think of the life that these children lived. Thank heaven, literally, that
the other two were taken away from this woman.
Is it true that your parents used to watch Rachelle`s daughter, Jaden, but then they quit? Why did they stop baby-sitting or watching her?
DUTRIZAC: Yes, they -- she literally was bringing them down after, like -- she lived in the place for about at least a year-and-a-half, so she
got comfortable for her surroundings and stuff. She started bringing the kids down, asking my mother repeatedly, two, three times a day, Oh, I got
to go out, I got to run some errands, and then, you know, wouldn`t come home until 2:00, 3:00 in the morning.
Yes, and it just was getting old. And I mean, I had an altercation with her one night when I was yelling at my own kids because they started
whipping toys at each other, and she thought I was saying something to her and she all got bent out of shape, you know, yelling, you know, Who are you
talking to, and stuff like that. And I mean, it was crazy how she just transformed within that time. And like I said, after a while she started,
you know, disappearing, not paying the rent.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Archie, I was just thinking about what -- I was thinking about what you just said, Mr. Dutrizac, how she transformed -- baby Bella`s
mother transformed so quickly. If she did that with you, and you`re a grown man, what would she do with a little baby? Archie, what do you think
when you heard baby Doe had been identified as Bella Bond, Rochelle`s daughter?
DUTRIZAC: First I was very disgusted, and sort of shocked, but not shocked due to the fact of what I witnessed with my own eyes. So, I mean,
yes, I`ve been following you and I watch you all of the time and I watched cases before you came out with this, and it shocked -- it made me sick to
the stomach. I can`t believe these people just keep on -- I mean, to me -- to me it seems that the Casey Anthony case -- sorry to bring this up, but
it seems to me that she, like, started a trend. Now all these people out there are wanting to have, you know, a Bella -- what was that tattoo --
Casey Anthony had? The Bella tattoo? It seems to me that she wanted to have a Bella baby and just get rid of it too. It`s just -- it`s just
insane what`s happening in this world with all these little kids taken too soon, and these parents aren`t thinking before they have them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:36:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: My children are trying to kill me. The dramatic 911 call a mother makes as her two beloved sons try to kill her and their father by
poisoning their dinner, stabbing them, shooting them, and burning them up. Breaking now, after we obtain the chilling 911 call, in the last hours, the
case takes a bizarre twist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are trying to strangle us, shoot us. They put Xanax in our food. And they thought we were asleep. They tried to
attack us, they beat me up, they beat him up, they are trying to kill us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can still see the bruises on her face from that morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We did not raise our boys that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Can you imagine? We have obtained the chilling 911 call. But as we go to air tonight, the case takes a bizarre twist. The parents have
decided that they forgive their adult sons that tried to kill them every way you can imagine. Shooting, stabbing. They had a gun out, knives,
tried to burn them to death, tried to poison them. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: County 911. What`s the location of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, please send someone to my house. My children are trying to kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. What do you mean your children are trying to kill you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ve attacked me and my husband. They drugged us with Xanax. They have attacked us. They`re trying to kill us.
My husband has distracted them. And I was just able to get to the phone. Please hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay on the phone with me, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said your husband has restrained them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has distracted them so I could get to the phone. Please, please hurry. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay on the phone with me. How old are your children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re 22 and 17.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And as you listen to the 911 call, see if you can pull it up, Liz. You hear the mother saying, I can hear them, they`re coming up the
stairs. Did you find it, Liz? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said the children woke you up, while you were asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I heard them say they put Xanax in our drinks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you know --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s why we are so sleepy. Yes, we didn`t understand why we were so sleepy, but that`s why.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you know it was Xanax?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because that`s what they said after they started attacking us. That`s what they said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, please hurry. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. They`re on their way, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you like me to stay on the phone with you, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure, you can. Let me try and lock my bedroom door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want you to look your door, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just heard them say, where did mom go? They`re headed upstairs now.
[ screaming ]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Scott Kimbler, reporter News Radio 106.7. Scott, thanks for being with us. I understand the parents have now said they forgive the
children and they don`t want the case prosecuted? When the police got there, they found the father face down, stabbed multiple times. The mother
attacked. The home had -- they tried to blow up the home with the gas fire. But now there`s a danger the whole thing can be thrown out because
the parents forgive the sons?
SCOTT KIMBLER, 106.7: What seems surprising to me, is they have met with the children, each for a half hour at a time, but separately, and
that`s very strange. You generally do not have the victims of a crime actually meet with the alleged perpetrators of the crime, that this took
place this past Friday, around a hearing time for the two brothers --
GRACE: Well, Scott Kimbler, you`re absolutely correct. You`re absolutely correct, Scott Kimbler. It`s very rare a crime victim will meet
with a defendant. But it`s also extremely rare, patricide, matricide, there is slang for when you try and kill or kill your parents. In this
scenario, you`ve got a 17-year-old and a 22-year-old.
[20:40:00]
Let`s see those pictures of them in their football outfits and going off to school and their graduation outfits. You know, it`s very rare that
children try to kill their parents. Justin Freiman, apparently this is turning the case on its ear, that the parents have gone and met with them
behind bars, and they want the whole thing forgiven. That`s not how it works.
FREIMAN: You`re right, Nancy. They`re actually out there saying that they want -- not only do they forgive the kids, they want the world to
forgive their kids.
GRACE: You know, what`s going to happen in court -- unleash the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, Randy Kessler. Alex Sanchez, if worse comes to
worst, you`ll just simply, the prosecution will just simply have to put the parents one at a time on the stand. Put the mom up -- if she doesn`t want
to testify against the son, impeach her with her own statement, her own prior statement. If the dad doesn`t want to testify, put him up, he`ll
have to impeach him with his own statement. And another thing, if we`re talking about impeaching the parents -- which I wouldn`t want to do, as a
prosecutor, because those are the victims, you can impeach the mother, Alex, with the 911 call.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but you know, Nancy, if it gets to the point that the prosecutor is impeaching their own witnesses and the witnesses are
reluctant, their case is in big trouble. And the fact they do not want to go forward and they want to forgive, the judge and the jury, they`re going
to take this into consideration. But I think there is a lot more to this case than meets the eye. Why are they so quick to forgive? Is there
something that occurred in that household over a long period of years which they don`t want to come out in a court of law?
GRACE: Are you actually starting up that these parents have abused these two?
SANCHEZ: I`m not saying that.
GRACE: Don`t even go Menendez on me.
SANCHEZ: Why are they so quick to forgive?
GRACE: Because they love their children.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That`s why -- does everything have something evil with you?
SANCHEZ : What don`t they want to come out during the trial?
GRACE: Do you see the world as there`s something evil in everything? You know, there`s only one thing more powerful than evil in this world,
Alex Sanchez, and that is love. Especially a mother`s love. Nothing more powerful than that. That`s why they don`t want their sons going to jail.
Because they love them. Not because they have abused their children.
SANCHEZ: I`m not saying they did.
GRACE: There`s not a shred of evidence to support that.
SANCHEZ: But it raises some suspicion in my mind. Nancy, I believe in forgiveness.
GRACE: Suspicion in your mind, okay.
SANCHEZ: You must agree that they should be dismissed, the charges then.
GRACE: No, I don`t. Listen, Kessler. Look how cute they are. Before they tried to kill their parents, of course. Kessler, how many
times you were defending, when I was prosecuting, did I have -- for instance, just for instance, a domestic battery, felony, woman victim come
in and go, I don`t want to prosecute him. And you know what I would say? I would go, I know, I know. But guess what, I do. Get on the stand.
KESSLER: But you know what, they give you a hard time and you had a dilemma.
GRACE: Yes, I had a dilemma. But the truth is the truth.
KESSLER: Yes, but you know what, it`s going to be a long time between now and the trial, and there`s going to be a lot that goes on, and they`ve
got a history as a family. And when the family doesn`t want to prosecute the family, it`s hard to convince the jury. You`ve got a dilemma. You may
end up with a plea, you may end up with something less than a full charge. You got a lot of issues as a prosecutor trying to prosecute with a
reluctant witness.
GRACE: I don`t have a problem. In fact, once the jury hears this, I think they`ll agree with me. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re trying to strangle us and shoot us and they put Xanax in our food, and they thought we were asleep. They tried to
attack us. They beat me up, they beat him up, and they are trying to kill us. Please, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. 17 and 22.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Please hurry. Please hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay. And where are they at now, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are in the house. They are trying to attack my husband. He`s made it to the garage, and he`s trying to blow the
horn to distract them and get our neighbors` attention. And I was able to get up to the phone and call you. But please, hurry. Please. They
strangled me and beat me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They strangled you and beat you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes. Their names are Chris and Cameron Ervin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their names are what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris and Cameron Ervin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And tonight, live, killer peanut butter hits the shelves in 46 states. Was poisonous peanut butter stocked in grocery stores on purpose?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 714 people in 46 states were infected. The problem was a salmonella outbreak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this container are products that have your ingredients in them. Would any of you be willing to take the lid off and
eat any of these products now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, I am not eating it. I`m not getting near it. To Dan O`Donnell, anchor, WISN. Dan, thank you for being with us. When I found
out the conditions of that peanut plant, if you look back and you read back to when it all broke wide open, there were actually dead rodents. Nine
people are dead. There are hundreds of people ill. And there may be more victims that we don`t know about that were traced -- that were never traced
back to the peanuts in the peanut butter, Dan, what happened?
[20:50:00]
DAN O`DONNELL, WISN: Well, as you said, Nancy, this is a massive outbreak. At least 714 people sickened across 46 states. And that is just
the ones that we know of. They all traced back to this plant in Blakely, Georgia, that as you said, was absolutely disgusting, mold, roaches,
rodents, dirty equipment, bird droppings, leaky roofs, holes big enough to allow larger animals inside. There was a failure to separate raw and
cooked products. And the government was able to demonstrate that the owner of this company, PCA, actually knew that he was shipping tainted peanut
butter.
GRACE: Okay, Michael Christian. I have read a lot about this in research. I mean, this thing has gone to trial. Isn`t it true that there
are e-mails in which the owner of the plant, who did not go out and murder people with a knife or a gun, but evidence that he knew this was
contaminated. This was poison. And sent it out anyway.
CHRISTIAN: That is true, Nancy, there are records that indicate that some of the food that was shipped by the peanut company had had tested to
determine that it had salmonella. Those tests were positive. But they shipped it anyway, with falsification and some other batches that had never
been tested at all got shipped with fake lab records indicating that the screenings were negative. At one point, he told managers to quote, "turn
them loose," and in another email mail he wrote, "just ship it."
GRACE: With me assistant professor from NYU School of Medicine, Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil. Dr. Devi, I always thought salmonella came from eggs
and chicken.
DR. DEVI NAMPIAPARAMPIL: You`re right, Nancy, I mean, that is how people usually get it, from undercooked meats, eggs, sometimes dairy,
sometimes fruits and vegetables. But you wouldn`t think about it with peanut butter -- the way this probably--
GRACE: I don`t understand how you get it from a fruit or vegetable? How do you get it from a fruit or a vegetable?
NAMPIARAMPIL: Sometimes the water is contaminated. So there is a large water content in fruits and vegetables, but you wouldn`t think of it
in peanut butter. In this case it is probably from the rodents that were in the plant or from the bird droppings.
GRACE: Bill Marler is with us, the attorney for victims of this salmonella outbreak. Thank you for joining us. What do we know about the
plant? What do we know about what could have caused the salmonella? And why do people believe -- authorities believe they knew good and well they
were sending out poisonous peanuts?
BILL MARLER, ATTORNEY: Thanks, Nancy. I was in both of those plants. The one in Texas and the one in Georgia. And your reporter was right.
They were a mess. And there were even -- weeks after the outbreak when I was in there, there were rodents, mice, rats, there were birds, bird
droppings, the place was a mess. It was third world-like.
GRACE: Wait, wait, Bill Marler, lawyer for the victims. You went to the plant, in Albany, Blakely County, Georgia, and in Texas, you saw rats
there?
MARLER: Yes, dead and alive, and this was two weeks after the announcement of the outbreak. I got a court order to get into the plant.
It was shocking.
GRACE: Oh, Bill Marler! You had to get a court order. No way were they going to let you walk through the front door.
MARLER: No, no, they --
GRACE: You said you saw dead rats?
MARLER: Turned out to be dead rats. And they turned the air conditioning off just to make it difficult for us. But so be it. But you
know, the prosecutors did a marvelous job of pressing this -- you know, it`s difficult to prove intent, as you know. And they did it in spades.
71 felony counts.
GRACE: Well, you (inaudible) a problem. Because the jury was all over this. You know, Dr. Ish Major, psychiatrist, I know you heard what
Bill Marler, the lawyer for some of these victims, said. But the thinking, you heard Michael Christian say, that there is proof in e-mails and
statements. He said, just ship it. I don`t want to hear it. In fact, Dr. Ish, there is evidence, and tell me if I`m wrong, Bill Marler, or Dan
O`Donnell or Michael Christian, that they actually falsified, cooked up lab documents saying that the peanuts and the peanut butter passed code.
MAJOR: Yes, Nancy, you can`t play chicken with other people`s lives and expect not to get caught. This sounds like the height of narcissism,
the thought process is I`m smarter, I won`t get caught, I am special, so the normal rules don`t apply to me. The answer is, we`re all special, and
the rules apply to all of us. So this may be too late to help this guy, behind bars, with the inadequate help he`s going to get there, but it
should serve as a warning for everybody else out there of what happens when you do that type of thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:00]
GRACE: Let`s remember Georgia police officer Kevin Toatley, just 35, killed in his patrol car. Struck head on by a vehicle driving the wrong
way. Served DeKalb County police for seven years. Widow, Keyshia (ph). Kevin Toatley, American hero.
And tonight, welcome to our newest tiny crime fighter, Shanelle Monay Cobb (ph). Congratulations to mommy, Shalanda, and daddy Kyle. Mommy had
a close call, she was in the ICU, but she is fine tonight. Thank God. Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and inviting
all of us into your home. Nancy Grace signing off. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
