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Nancy Grace
Mom Punched by Cops/Scalping Perp Wants Lower Bond. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired October 06, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news, live, Carlsbad. Shocking video shows the moment a mother of two pinned to the ground and repeatedly
punched in the face -- by police! Bombshell now. Her children, screaming, witness the whole thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Hahn calls the worst day of her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing to her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When backup arrived, she says things got even more violent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can feel hands on me. It`s the weirdest feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me! Help me! Help me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video Geragostube via YouTube.
And live, Walton, Kentucky. Warning, graphic photos. Twenty-six- year-old Marilyn Stanley enduring multiple surgeries after she`s literally scalped. Reports her ex orders his pitbull to attack, leaving the blond
beauty barely alive, then taking the knife himself and ripping over 80 percent of her scalp off her head.
We dig deep to uncover her ex`s rap sheet, showing ag assault on another woman. Did Marilyn have any idea who she was sleeping with? As
scalping victim Marilyn Stanley heads back into surgery in just 36 hours, is her attacker now planning to demand a lower bond? If that judge lets
him out on bond, all of his victims, beware.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARILYN STANLEY, VICTIM: I had this, my black eyes, had cuts all over my face -- I still do -- a very, very large portion of my scalp is gone, my
ear. It was just kind of not really attached to my face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Steuben (ph) County. Does a superstar professional hockey player set up a marathon poker game as an alibi, then have his
gorgeous young wife, the mother of their two little children, bludgeoned dead while the two children in the home?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former professional hockey player is accused of having his wife killed in an alleged murder-for-hire plot. Police began
investigating after the body of Kelly Clayton (ph) was found inside her home with severe facial injuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Albuquerque, caught on video, a baby-sitter dangerously abusing a tiny tot girl. How long has this been going on? We
have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s disturbing video that is upsetting to a lot of people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had the baby by the arm, bounced her and said, You`re in time-out for not sleeping.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A day care worker caught on cell phone video violently shaking a baby at the Eastern Child Development Center.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, White Pine (ph), Tennessee. A small town in shock after reports an 11-year-old boy guns down an 8-year-old little girl with
Daddy`s shotgun in a spat over the little girl`s puppy?
Hello. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell now, live to Carlsbad. Shocking video emerging showing the moment a mother of two pinned to the ground and repeatedly punched in the
face by police. Bombshell now. Her children screaming, witnessing the whole thing.
Straight out to Tom Perumean with KABC. Tom, what happened?
TOM PERUMEAN, KABC (via telephone): Well, Cindy Hahn had been pulled over by an officer for a seatbelt violation. And she was taken from the
car, put on the ground and was being -- and was in the process of being subdued.
While this was going on, officers showed up as backup, and they then got into it, punching -- apparently punching Hahn in the face repeatedly
and they did serious injury to her.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at...
PERUMEAN: The video is just incredible! It is just outrageous in what it shows!
GRACE: You`re seeing video from Geragostube posted on YouTube. Liz, let`s show this in full, if we have it, in slo-mo to with our arrows. Take
a look at this, please. There you are seeing the woman on the ground. Could we take that in full? Thanks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did nothing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
[20:05:02]UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you all doing to her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She didn`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay back. If she didn`t do anything (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay back, or you`re going...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help me! Help me! Help me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK, you`re seeing a mom of two, Cindy Michelle Hahn, on the ground, she says being punched repeatedly by police officers. This all
goes down in Carlsbad, San Diego community. It`s an affluent seaside community located between LA and San Diego.
I`m not quite sure how the whole thing started. But Tom Perumean, KABC, what I`m understanding is this, that there was a car alarm going off,
and she walks up to a police officer and says, Hey, what`s going on? And he says, Is that your car? And she says, No. And he says, Well, shut the
F up. This is none of your business.
So then she calls the hotline on police and reports what he just says to her, gets in her car with her children and leaves. And then she is
pulled over for an alleged seatbelt violation, Tom?
PERUMEAN: Exactly. And if this doesn`t appear to be a clear-cut case of police overreaction and then police revenge -- a police revenge tactic,
I don`t know what is.
It`s clear that something was very, very wrong about how this whole incident went down. To be pulled out of a vehicle and physically subdued
by an officer, and then when backup shows up, you`re screaming for help, and the responding officers respond by coming in and getting violent with
you?
You know, police have a bad enough time in this country, and this just underscores -- here`s a small town police department executing what appears
to be small town justice. And it`s the -- just the fact that it was caught on tape in the 21st century shows us, you know, that clearly, something is
wrong down there in Carlsbad.
GRACE: Michael Christian, what do you understand happened to bring this all about?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, as you said earlier, Nancy, apparently, she says that she questioned this one
police officer, and then as she drove away, he followed her. She says in her lawsuit this is an act of retaliation against her for complaining about
the police.
GRACE: Now, is there a documentation of any sort, Michael Christian, of her calling? It`s not 911. It`s not 411. In some places, it`s 711 or
811 when you make some type of a complaint. Is there any documentation? Because I`ve got right in front of me Mark Geragos`s filing. He is
representing her.
What about the documentation supporting her claim this is all because she made a complaint?
CHRISTIAN: Yes, there is an outgoing call verified, Nancy, at 4:07 PM on the date this happened for three minutes. And that is to the number
that is for the civilian police complaint hotline.
GRACE: Liz, if you have this in slo-mo, let`s see it. You`re seeing on the floor -- on the ground there, Cindy Michelle Hahn, her two children
in the car, screaming. What became of the children, Tom Perumean?
PERUMEAN: Well, the children entirely witnessed this event going on, and according to Cindy Hahn in statements that she made, her son is still
affected by this, still shaken up by it. He has repeatedly said, Mom, there was nothing I could do to stop them.
Now, this is just -- once again, the piling up of incredible incident after incident. The children witnessed this. This is an incredibly
violent takedown on a public street, thankfully, witnessed by someone with a cell phone camera that captured all of this going on. So you know,
there`s a lot still coming out about this.
GRACE: Oh! Ow! Oh! Ow!
OK, did you see that punch right to the face, right to the face on this mom, her two children screaming in the car? I -- I`m just
overwhelmed.
You`re seeing video from Geragostube posted on YouTube. Mark Geragos is her lawyer representing her in this.
You know, even if the police were right, even if she did not have on a seatbelt, what -- what is this? Oh! Oh!
OK. Tom Perumean, what were her injuries?
PERUMEAN: She suffered both a facial contusion and a brain contusion that was later diagnosed as a concussion. She says that she is continuing
to suffer from those injuries and has suffered memory loss due to the injuries apparently inflicted by these officers.
[20:10:02]GRACE: Dr. William Morrone, forensic pathologist joining me out of Madison Heights, break that down for me. A contusion is basically a
bruise. Now, the bruise to the face not serious, but a bruise to the brain?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: What happens is when there`s violent pressure and trauma on the skull inside the brain, the
brain moves back and forth, and it hits the bone here or it hits the bone here. And that`s how you get the bruise.
Bleeding inside the brain doesn`t go away. And that space compresses the brain, and that`s how you could get memory loss. We hope it`s not
permanent.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Vincent Hill, former police officer, private investigator, author of "Playbook to a Murder" and "Incomplete
Pass." Thanks for being with us. I would like to hear from your vantage what you think about this.
VINCENT HILL, FMR. POLICE OFFICER: Well, Nancy, it`s troubling. If, indeed, she was stopped for a seatbelt violation, first, she probably
shouldn`t have been taken out of her car. But irrelevant of that, the use of force continuum calls for the amount of force necessary to affect the
arrest, which, unfortunately, does include punching. So I think...
GRACE: Mr. Hill -- Mr. Hill -- Mr. Hill...
HILL: Yes?
GRACE: OK? Now, I know you`re a former police officer. And you have a very distinguished record. I know you`re an investigator, which is like
a big up from being a beat cop. And you`re a published author.
HILL: Absolutely.
GRACE: Now, when you say it`s troubling for a mother of three to be thrown down in her dress on the grass and get an A-S-S-whipping, beaten in
the face...
HILL: Well, Nancy, I didn`t say I justified it. I didn`t say I justified it. I said it`s troubling. But what I...
GRACE: ... a mother of two over a seatbelt violation?
HILL: I understand that. But what I always preach to people...
GRACE: That`s a lot more than troubling to me!
HILL: ... is compliance. What I always preach to people is compliance. The easiest way not to have the use of force used against you
is compliance.
GRACE: I agree.
HILL: At the end of the day, she was resisting arrest. It`s unfortunate, what happened, but she was resisting arrest. So the
officer...
GRACE: Well, I agree with you, Mr. Hill.
HILL: ... the backup officer did what he thought necessary to effect the arrest.
GRACE: Mr. Hill, I agree with you that civilians are to comply to what police officers say. And if she resisted arrest, that`s a whole
`nother can of worms.
Tom Perumean, KABC, I want to follow up on what author and former cop Vincent Hill just said. He`s right. If she`s resisting arrest, that`s a
whole `nother ball game. But was she resisting arrest? What do we know?
PERUMEAN: She was filed with felony charges for, in fact, resisting arrest.
GRACE: But they dropped those.
PERUMEAN: Those charges have since been dropped. She`s also charged with battery on a police officer. Now, that is, striking a police officer.
Once again, those charges have been dropped. But once again...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute, Tom. Tom, Tom, Tom, Tom, hold on. I hear you saying she was charged with hitting a cop and felony resisting
arrest. The cops have dropped all that. Why? And how come I see them beating her in the face with their fist, and I don`t see her fighting back
or resisting arrest?
So am I supposed to believe them or my lying eyes? Which one should I believe, Tom Perumean?
PERUMEAN: The San Diego County district attorney dropped the case because there was insufficient evidence of this -- of this going on.
That`s -- that would -- that`s the official line.
Unofficially, what -- what -- you know, what we`re seeing is a small town police department. And it doesn`t matter if it`s in a rich beachside
community, or if it`s some gas station stopover in the middle of the San Joaquin Valley. We`re seeing a small town police department clearly
operating what appears to be outside of the realm of professional police training and operations.
Something clearly escalated this incident, and it certainly appears to have been an act of retaliation from what we understand from Mr. Geragos`s
case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:16]GRACE: Live, Walton, Kentucky. Warning, graphic photos. Twenty-six-year-old Marilyn Stanley enduring multiple surgeries after she
is literally scalped. Reports her ex orders his pitbull to attack, leaving the blond beauty barely alive. Then he takes the knife to her himself,
according to police, ripping over 80 percent of her scalp off her head!
We find his rap sheet showing ag assault on another woman. Did she have any idea who this guy was? As scalping victim Marilyn Stanley heads
back to surgery in just 36 hours, is her attacker planning to demand a lower bond? If this judge lets this guy out of bond, victims beware!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Zachary Gross decided to scalp Marilyn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her scalp ripped off in a violent attack.
MARILYN STANLEY, VICTIM: I`ve been physically changed for the rest of my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After the scalping, accused of siccing his pitbull on her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dog ripped half her ear off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. What I`m understanding, Melissa Neeley, WLW -- we have been in touch with her family. She`s heading back into another surgery in
just 36 hours. And according to what we are hearing, the perp, the alleged perp, is demanding a lower bond? He actually wants to walk free, Melissa?
MELISSA NEELEY, WLW (via telephone): Well, yes. And so what is happening is they had a preliminary hearing. That was last week, and the
judge found probable cause. Now, the case has now been referred to a grand jury, and the commonwealth attorney will present her case. Bail was
upheld, so he remains in jail for right now.
[20:20:07]GRACE: Dr. Paul Nassif, plastic surgeon and star of "Botched" on Bravo -- Dr. Nassif, I understand that part of what they are
doing -- in about 36 hours, she`s going back in surgery -- that they are putting cadaver -- excuse me, "E," Dr. Paul Nassif, "Botched" on "E."
Sorry about that. Let`s clear up your medical qualifications, first.
All right. They`re putting cadaver skin, a dead person`s skin on her scalp? Is there any way, with either cadaver skin or transplant of skin
from her body to her head, she`s ever going to grow hair on her head again?
DR. PAUL NASSIF, PLASTIC SURGERY: It`s not going to happen, Nancy. She`ll never be able to grow hair on that area again. Never.
GRACE: Why? Why?
NASSIF: The hair follicles in the scalp -- remember, that tissue is about that thick. And now you have just the skull with a little bit
covering of something, whether it`s a skin graft or cadaver skin. When the hair follicles are gone, they`re never going to come back again. They`ve
been thrown away, ripped off (INAUDIBLE) that dog or from the oy friend. So it`s now going to have to be a wig or some type of...
GRACE: For the rest of her life, and she`s just 26. Dr. Nassif, take a listen to what Marilyn Stanley says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STANLEY: It was shocking. I didn`t expect it. I didn`t expect it at all. I had both my black eyes. I had cuts all over my face. I still do.
A very, very large portion of my scalp is gone.
When the guy went to put the light on my head for the first time was when it really sank in that my hair`s never going to grow back.
My ear, it looks a lot better because it was just kind of not really attached to my face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, former prosecutor out of the Florida jurisdiction Carissa Kranz, Robert Ficker, high-profile defense
attorney out of D.C., and Robert Schalk, defense attorney out of New York. Welcome to all of you.
Let`s start with you, Ficker. And you know what? Let me bring in the police officer from our last story, as well, that has stayed with us, the
author.
First to you, Ficker. Give me one good reason this guy should have a bond reduction.
ROBIN FICKER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He didn`t shoot her. He didn`t stick the knife in her. Obviously, this was a...
GRACE: Whoa! Where did you get that?
FICKER: ... crime of passion. He didn`t damage any internal vital organs. This is directed towards one person. Have him -- have her
protected from him. Give him a bond so he can bring about a good defense.
GRACE: OK, what you just said is not correct, Mr. Ficker. Did you not hear at the beginning, true, he sicced his pitbull on her to attack
her, but also, he took a knife to her scalp himself, Mr. Ficker. The dog didn`t tear her scalp off, he did that.
FICKER: No internal organs were injured.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
FICKER: A large percentage of our population doesn`t have hair on their head.
GRACE: Sir, are you saying that because she doesn`t have hair on her head, that`s her only injury? Is that what you`re saying?
FICKER: I`m saying that there could have been much more serious injuries where he would get a bond, so he should get a bond in this case.
GRACE: Because she had no internal injuries. All right. You know, I want to go back to Melissa Neeley, WLW. And while I`m with Melissa, could
we also get Vincent Hill, the former police officer, up?
Melissa Neeley, what were her injuries? Mr. Ficker, please listen.
NEELEY: Well, her injuries were very extensive. She was basically scalped, as we heard from one of the detectives who was on the case last
week. She had her ear partially ripped off. I mean, the man threw her scalp in a bag and then dumped her off on her mother`s lawn and left her
there basically to die. So...
GRACE: So Mr. Ficker, you, Carissa Kranz, Robert Schalk, Vincent Hill -- did you hear that, Mr. Ficker? Did you hear that she is now undergoing
yet another surgery?
And to you, Robert Schalk, let`s see what your plea is. Give me one good reason this guy should walk free on bond, on a bond reduction?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Again, Nancy, we talk about this all the time. The purpose of bond is to ensure an individual returns to court,
not to punish him for the crime tat he`s been charged with and not convicted of. He`s innocent until proven guilty.
They need to come up with a package that ensures the court that he will return to his court appearances, not to merely hold him in jail
because of the heinous allegations.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:28:50]STANLEY: It was shocking. I didn`t expect it. I didn`t expect it at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marilyn says her then boyfriend began beating her, repeatedly kicking her and punching her in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And scalped her inside his Walton home.
STANLEY: I wasn`t even aware that I had gotten cut until I woke up in the hospital.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, we understand that the alleged perpetrator, her ex, wants a bond modification -- in other words, a lower bond -- so he can
walk free. In 36 hours, Marilyn goes back into surgery.
Unleash the lawyers. Carissa Kranz, Robin Ficker, Robert Schalk. Also joining us, former police officer, author Vincent Hill.
OK, Vincent, I`m sure that many, many times you have handled cases where a preliminary hearing has been held and the perp wants a lower bond.
HILL: Yes.
GRACE: What message is that going to send? Can we see all this guy`s mug shots, please? Remember the last woman that he ag assaulted and he
pled guilty to? His mug shots? There you go. There`s, like, 12 of them, Vincent.
HILL: Yes, Nancy...
GRACE: What message does it send to his last victim that he`s going to get out on bond?
HILL: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, this guy`s bond...
GRACE: Ridiculous!
HILL: ... should definitely not be lowered. I mean, he has a history of assault against women.
[20:30:00]
To Mr. Ficker`s point he didn`t attack her or anything like that, the fact is, he sent his dog after her. The dog did exactly what his master told
him to do. So domestic violence in itself doesn`t have to be I`m beating my wife.
GRACE: Mr. Hill, I really don`t want to pick on you. But you did hear that he himself took the knife to her! Mr. Hill, that`s not all.
After the dog -- the pitbull attacks her and mauls her, according to her, he takes a knife to her, rips her scalp off, then he shows her a camera and
says, hey, you`re not too pretty now, are you? It`s not just ordering the dog on her. And now they`re going to let him out on a lower bond? Justin
Freiman, who is the judge? What judge is considering a lower bond?
FREIMAN: Actually, Nancy, it`s Judge Jeffrey Smith is the one who was at the hearing and said that it would go over to a grand jury and held the
bond at $100,000 for now.
GRACE: $100,000? Whoa, whoa! I didn`t realize it was that low. Kranz, Ficker, Schalk. Robert Schalk, you know what that means, $100,000.
You only have to put down 10 percent on that. He could get together, cobble together family, more girlfriends and whoever, and come up with
$10,000 bond and walk free. And where do you think he`s going to go, Robert Schalk? Straight to her house.
SCHALK: No, he`s not, Nancy. He has got an order of protection in place, he`s not going to -- he has an attorney that he has hired.
GRACE: Order of protection.
SCHALK: He has an attorney that he`s hired, who`s going to advise him if you get out, the only place you`re going is your home. They need to
convince the judge, obviously, if the bond is going to be lowered, potentially for an electronic monitoring device, to ensure that they can
monitor his position at all times.
HILL: Nancy, as an ex-police officer, I can tell you that an order of protection is a joke, it`s a piece of paper. I cannot tell you how many
houses I went to where someone had an order of protection -- they had an order of protection to stay away. I was still there. I was still taking
that report. I was still taking someone to jail for domestic violence. So just to say he`s going to have an order of protection is not enough.
GRACE: It doesn`t -- it`s not worth this. Look at me. It`s not worth this piece of paper. I have got in my hand, an order of protection.
Carissa Kranz, do you know he has all of these people, all of these mug shots, all of these bookings. Now he`s literally scalped a woman, and
they`re considering lowering his bond?
KRANZ: Well, and Nancy, one thing I don`t understand is, you know, he`s the vicious animal. He is the one that is the vicious attacker, not
the dog. And the dog is not going to ever get out. The dog is probably going to be euthanized. And he can`t --
GRACE: The dog, amazingly -- I`m glad you said that. Is it true, Melissa Neeley, the dog is still alive? The dog has not been put down? He
mauls a woman half dead, and the dog is still alive, right?
NEELEY: That`s right. The dog is still alive. He`s in the local animal shelter, and at this point, the dog is evidence in this case. So
the dog will remain in the shelter until the court order tells them, you know, either euthanize the dog, or I guess either, you know, keep him
there. But at this point, the dog is fine, and is being taken care of at the animal shelter.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:30]
GRACE: Live, Stuben County. Does a superstar professional hockey player set up a marathon poker game as an alibi, and then have his gorgeous
young wife, the mother of their two little children, bludgeoned dead while the two children in the home?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities have arrested a former pro hockey player as part of an alleged murder for hire plot in the death of the
player`s wife. Thomas Clayton is facing second degree murder charges in the death of his wife Kelly, whose body was found on the floor of their
home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jeff Murray with the Star Gazette. Thank you for being with us. I understand the basic fact pattern, I believe. This
star hockey player has the wife and the two children, the beautiful wife, the happy home, the big home. He arranges a marathon poker game. Does he
arrange it, is my first question? Who sets up the poker game? It`s really long, like hours and hours and hours. And during that time, someone comes
into the house and bludgeons his wife dead with his two little children in the home. Is that correct?
JEFF MURRAY, STAR GAZETTE: Well, Nancy, that is what the defense attorney for Mr. Clayton wanted people to believe, that is the argument he
made at a bail hearing the other day. What we do know is that Mr. Clayton made a 911 call to the 911 center about 12:39 a.m., September 29th.
Authorities have responded, did find his wife dead, and they have been investigating the case ever since then. They did arrest Thomas Clayton
later that day, and charged him with second degree murder.
GRACE: What do we know, Matt Zarrell, about this poker game? The reason I keep asking that, is because he`s not there at the time the murder
goes down. There`s no way to connect him physically to the murder of his wife. But here are my questions, Matt Zarrell. Was there a sex assault?
Was there a theft? Why would someone come into the home, bludgeon this mom dead, with her two children basically in the next room?
ZARRELL: I haven`t heard anything about sex assault, I haven`t heard anything about theft. Now the husband`s attorney says that when he got
home at 12:35 a.m., he saw the house was completely lit up, and the doors were open. Now the attorney claims that the husband was playing poker with
six other people from 8:00 p.m. the night before until arriving home about 12:35 a.m., and then calling 911 about four minutes later.
[20:40:00]
GRACE: Okay, Jeff Murray, Star Gazette, what other evidence, if any, links him, the hockey player, to the murder of his wife?
MURRAY: Authorities really are not talking about evidence a whole lot at this point. They are -- they did spend several days on the scene, and a
couple other scenes in the area with several sheriff`s deputies, state troopers and voluntary firefighters combing the area for evidence. But
they`re being pretty tight-lipped about what they found.
What the district attorney did tell us is that they are looking at this as a potential murder-for-hire situation, and that Thomas Clayton
worked in -- hand-in-hand with the other person who has been arrested, his name is Michael Beard from Elmyra, New York. They`re both charged with
second degree murder. But authorities are saying that given the fact that this is possibly a murder-for-hire situation, they`re looking at upgrading
it to first degree murder.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Jeff Murray with us from the Star Gazette. Matt Zarrell, in this case, there is murder one and murder two.
Malice murder, as it`s often called, requires a black heart. In other words, premeditation. You intend to do it. You`re seeing a shot right
there of Michael Beard, age 44.
Now if, Matt, this was murder-for-hire. If Clayton hired Beard to bludgeon Kelly dead, that would show malice. Premeditation, intent to do
the crime. Do you agree or disagree?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, in fact, the murder statute is very, very clear, that if the intended victim was -- if the killing was procured, commission
of the killing, pursuant to an agreement with a person other than the victim -- I`m reading from the statute, to commit the same further receipt.
So if the state can prove that there was some type of transaction between these two men to commit this alleged murder, then they have their murder
one statute.
GRACE: Okay, Dr. William Morrone is with us, forensic pathologist, renowned medical examiner and toxicologist. What do you make of Kelly`s
injuries?
MORRONE: Any time somebody talks about bludgeoning, they`re talking about blunt force trauma. Fatal blunt force trauma is always to the head
or the front of the chest. It`s hard to recover once you strike large organs. You bleed to death. But the damage to the head can also show
malice, and brain damage. That`s what they`re trying to create, brain damage and bleeding.
GRACE: You know, another thing, Dr. Morrone, and I`m thinking of it from a psychological point of view. A behavioral evidence standpoint. The
fact that we have no evidence of a sex attack on this woman, nothing is stolen. So what is the motive to come in, go into her bedroom, and beat
her in the face and the head?
MORRONE: That`s all pathological and psychological to send a message. That`s the same thing as a mafia hit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:47:00]
GRACE: Live to Albuquerque. Caught on video. A babysitter dangerously abusing a tiny tot girl. How long has this been going on? We
have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Urgent. A daycare worker is charged after allegedly rocking a baby violently, and it`s caught on video. And
apparently there are more videos of the suspect allegedly abusing kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me, Joey Hudson, WGTK. The video which you can`t really see as well there, because it`s so blurred. She is actually shaking the
baby`s head back and forth so violently, I just don`t know how they`re avoiding some type of a brain injury. What happened?
JOEY HUDSON, WGTK: Well, what we see in the video, Nancy, is this worker at the Eastern Child Development Center, and she is in a chair,
appears to be rocking the child, and then suddenly just starts violently shaking the child. You`re right, it`s hard to understand how this child is
not injured. We`re told the child is okay. But it`s very disturbing to watch this video.
GRACE: To Justin Freiman, what do we know?
FREIMAN: Nancy, we know that this daycare worker for some reason shakes this baby, not only puts a blanket over its head and possibly did it
to other children there, as well. There is other video that is being looked over by investigators.
GRACE: Joining me right now, the owner of Eastern Child Development Center, Ilene Marchant, thank you so much for being with us. What happened
after this occurred?
ILENE MARCHANT, OWNER, EASTERN CHILD DEVELOPMENT CENTER: Well, we immediately fired her. The -- when it was brought to our attention, and we
called CYFD and asked them to come over and view the video, and we called child protective services. We called the police and we called crimes
against children unit and we called the parents of the baby.
GRACE: Tell me this, ma`am. What about this did you consider to be abusive? Were you worried about a possible brain damage on the child?
MARCHANT: Well, when I viewed the video, it looks like -- in the actual video that wasn`t shown on TV, it`s sped up a little bit. The
actual video shows that she has good control of the baby`s head. I wasn`t concerned about the baby having damage. I was concerned that that is not
the way anybody should ever handle a child. And she was obviously angry when she was doing it. Nobody should ever touch a child or have a child in
their arms when they`re angry. Ever. And so we wanted to make sure that she wasn`t able to work with other children in other settings ever again.
[20:50:00]
And we made the call and we stand by our decision to make the call. And -- because, of course, safety of our children has always been our first
priority.
GRACE: To Dr. William Morrone, explain what`s so dangerous about what we`re seeing.
MORRONE: Here`s what`s really dangerous. When you shake a baby, the head is the heaviest part, going back and forth, and back and forth. And
inside the nerves, the neurons as they are connecting, begin to snap and disconnect. It`s like picking up a bowl of spaghetti, holding it on two
sides and pulling it until they all break in between. That`s long-term brain damage, memory, walking, coordination, and intelligence.
GRACE: Everyone, quickly, to tonight`s case alert. A five-month-old baby girl killed in a senseless drive-by shooting. Baby Aviel (ph) in the
car with her mom when shots ring out. Reportedly from a nearby apartment. The shots hit the baby girl in the chest. Police tonight searching for the
shooter. A $25,000 reward. Tip line is crime stoppers, 216-25-crime.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:55:20]
GRACE: Live to White Pines, Tennessee. A small town is in shock after reports an 11-year-old little boy guns down an 8-year-old girl with
his father`s shotgun. And for what? It was all because of a spat over the little girl`s puppy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Mikaela (ph) was killed by an 11-year- old boy. He was their next door neighbor. They both went to the same school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grab your children today, kiss `em, hug `em. Tell them you love them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He asked Mikaela to show her one of his puppies. When she said no, he shot and killed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Michael Christian, it`s almost too much to take in. These two children were neighbors, right?
CHRISTIAN: That`s correct, Nancy. And they went to school together as well.
GRACE: So what, I don`t understand what happened. The little girl got a new puppy and the little boy wanted to play with it? The girl said
no, and he goes and gets a gun and shoots her dead?
CHRISTIAN: That`s what police say happened, Nancy. He went into his home. He got his father`s 12 gauge shotgun, and then from inside the home,
which means it was shot through a window or through a door, he apparently shot this little girl in the chest.
GRACE: Dr. Tiffany Sanders, psychologist out of Chicago. Tiffany, when my children argue, I don`t think there has ever been a point where
they would think to go and get a shotgun and shoot somebody dead. I mean, how is that instilled in a little child that that`s the answer?
SANDERS: It`s unthinkable to think that a child would get a gun and know how to use it in order to kill another child. And you`re a mother of
two kids, you wouldn`t even think of something like that occurring. What this parent should have done was lock that gun up, put it in a safe box.
That child shouldn`t have even known where the gun was. And if he had issues with that child, the other little girl, for not allowing him to see
the puppies, talk to his parents about it. Come up with other solutions or strategies to befriend the little girl so she might feel comfortable. This
kid had issues with power and control. He wanted to take her out. I wonder if that little girl saw that and witnessed that in his home with his
own parents.
GRACE: Speaking of that, Michael Christian, are there other reports he was a bully at school?
CHRISTIAN: According to the little girl`s mother, when they first moved to town, he was bullying this little girl. Mother says he was making
fun of her, he called her names just to be mean. She says she went to the school principal about it, and he quit for a while. But then all of a
sudden on Saturday, he shot her.
GRACE: Dr. Morrone, what about the wound, what did she endure?
MORRONE: I hope this was instantaneous death. A 12 gauge in the body of a small child is phenomenal trauma and immediate. I hope it was
immediate death. I`m sorry it`s that bad.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Carissa Kranz, Robin Ficker, Robert Schalk. Robin, give me your best defense.
FICKER: He didn`t know the gun was loaded. It was unlocked. He was playing. It went off accidentally. It was not directed at this child, as
some would have us believe.
GRACE: All right. Good try. Carissa.
KRANZ: I totally disagree. This young 11-year-old is taught how to hunt at 11 years old or before if you read about it. This child was taught
to have zero appreciation for human life or animal life. He knew exactly what he was doing.
GRACE: Robert Schalk, after you hear what Carissa and Robin say, what about the parents` responsibility?
SCHALK: I think there will definitely be an investigation, and the district attorney`s office will probably be looking at the parents for
obviously either some sort of manslaughter charges as a borderline accomplice, because they provided the gun to the kid.
GRACE: Let`s remember American hero, Marine Corporal Salem Bachar, 20. Eula Vista (ph), California, second tour. Purple Heart, Combat Action
Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal. Fluent in three languages. Played several instruments, an amateur magician. Dreamed of buying a home with is
new wife. Parents Fouad and Martha. Twin sisters, widow Christine. Salem Bachar, American hero. Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for
being with us. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
